Poisoning, Starvation, and Forensic Analysis with guest Dr Adam Stern

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Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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I want to apologize to our

listeners because I have not put

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anything out in about six weeks.

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It's been crazy six weeks, but we are

back and we have a great guest today.

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We have Dr.

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Adam Stern, Professor of Forensic

Pathology at the University of Florida

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and founder of the International

Society for Animal Forensic Science.

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So I'm really honored to have

you as a guest today, Dr.

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Stern.

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So thank you for taking the time

and welcome to the junction.

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Dr. Stern: Well, thanks for having me.

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I'm excited to be here.

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I actually listened to a couple

of your talks earlier this week.

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Uh, so I like what you're doing

and I'm glad to be a part of it.

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DrG: Thank you.

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Thank you so much.

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So let's start, you know, I know

a little bit about you, but our

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listeners may not know who you are.

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So let's start by letting our

listeners know about how you got

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started and the path that brought

you to where you are today.

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Dr. Stern: Sure.

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Well, I have a non traditional path of

sort of how I became a veterinarian.

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You know, we talked to most veterinarians,

veterinary students, and they all

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wanted to be a veterinarian since

they were born or two years old.

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That wasn't my dream, right?

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I, I went to, uh, college and I

actually, when I was there, uh,

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was interested in counterterrorism.

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That was, that was a

thing that I wanted to do.

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Um, but my college advisors didn't

really, um, think that was a, a good idea.

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Um, and so they really pushed me in

another direction and, and, and that's

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how I figured out I, I, I like biology,

veterinary medicine sounded interesting.

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Um, and, and so that's how I got there.

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I just, You know, never worked in the

veterinarian's office until till college.

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So I didn't really know

what I was getting into.

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And it wasn't until, you know,

going through vet school, you're

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like, well, I like horses, but

I don't want to work on horses.

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Zoo animals are cool, but I don't

want to work on zoo animals.

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Um, and so I made my way to, um, so

the, the, the back services, so like

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radiology, pathology, things like that.

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And then I decided pathology

was really where I wanted to go.

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So I kind of got there in a,

in a non traditional direction.

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Uh, but you know, I look back at it and

I'm like, I guess I made all the right

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choices to get to where I am today.

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So I'm not complaining.

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DrG: Yeah.

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I think that everything kind

of happens for a reason, right?

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Hey, because I think that, I mean,

you're doing great things there.

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And I joke with my staff that

you're going to be my boss someday.

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So in like four or five years, watch

out for my resume because I'm coming.

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I just really, I just, uh, you know,

and we're going to talk a little bit

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about the services that you guys do, but

I have used your services and I think

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it's, it's a great benefit, not just

to veterinarians in forensics, but just

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humane officers, animal control officers.

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law enforcement.

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So, um, yeah.

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So thank you for sharing

what you have done.

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And now we'll start with our topic.

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So we're going to be talking about

poisonings and starvation that

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can be somewhat difficult topics.

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So for our listeners, if this is

hard for you to listen, hit the pause

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button, focus on something else for

a bit, and then you can come back.

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Um, let's start with

talking about poisoning.

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So in my experience, most pet owners,

when I was in general practice, most

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people that came in claiming that the

neighbor killed the dog or the cat

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and that it was poison, very few of

those actually, I can't even think

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of any of them that were true that

the that the neighbor did poison it.

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Um, what is your

experience with with that?

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Dr. Stern: So, yeah, Poisoning

cases in general, they, they kind of

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present non specifically and sometimes

they're not poisoning at all, right?

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Like you said, a lot of them are, are not.

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There's a natural process, but it kind

of unexpected demise of the animal.

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Um, but you still have to look

into it and, and, you know,

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consider it as a, a differential.

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Uh, in my experience, uh, we actually

are, are doing a lot of retrospective

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work and we have found that the

neighbor sometimes does do it.

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Uh, you know, it really does happen.

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Uh, but again, that's not,

that's not the commonality.

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A lot of times it's,

it's, it's something else.

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Um, but they're, they're really

difficult cases to handle.

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You really have to invest a lot of

time and honestly, a lot of money,

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um, to really figure out, you know,

what the poison is, if it actually

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was a poison in the first place.

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DrG: Yeah, most of the poisonings that

I saw were what we thought primarily

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accidental, right, like rat poison or

ethylene glycol, that kind of stuff, but

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one of the things that I think people

have a misconception, and it's probably

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because of the CSI effect, is that they

think that something is poison, and then

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just Send blood to the lab and see what,

you know, they expect to see the graph

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and say, yeah, this is what happened.

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So, what is the, what is the truth as far

as what it actually takes to find out what

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poisons may be in a, in a dog or a cat?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, so you're,

you're absolutely right.

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That CSI effect, you know, I always, I

always talk about, you know, you have this

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45 minutes to, you know, watch that, that

detective show, that crime scene show.

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And in about 30 seconds, they put

the sample in the machine, it turned

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around and it prints out and voila,

you got your, you got your answer.

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Uh, so far from the truth.

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It's really just not even funny.

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Um, when we look for, for toxins.

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Uh, there's a plethora of different, um,

analytical techniques that one can use.

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We have GCMS, LCMS, we have, uh,

immunoassays for screening these

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cases, uh, but there is no one test

that fits all poisons and toxins.

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Uh, heavy metals are going to be

identified differently than say,

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uh, ethylene glycol, which will

be different than organophosphate.

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So, uh, we really have to consider.

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Uh, so much more than just the, here's

the blood sample or a blood might not

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be, uh, the best, um, substance to

even test, uh, you know, if it's a

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more of a chronic intoxication, um,

in the live animal, you're probably

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gonna be looking at urine, right?

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A little blood test.

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The toxins probably not

circulating in the blood anymore.

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It's probably been

deposited in all the organs.

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And so we have to really consider

when the intoxication happened.

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Um, you know, same thing.

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If it's per acute, animal literally

eat something and drops dead.

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Um, we're not gonna be looking at urine.

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We really want to look at the

vomit or the stomach content.

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So again, you have to think

about the clinical picture.

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Uh, in my case, the autopsy findings

and then, you know, what our

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list is of differentials for the

toxin and then the test itself.

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So lots, lots more than just,

you know, 30 seconds on TV.

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DrG: Yeah, no, absolutely.

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And what, what is the importance as far

as like the history that people give you?

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Dr. Stern: So the history,

it's, it's important because

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say like the pet owner, right?

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They, they know their animals really well.

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Um, and I had a case recently

where, uh, the owner basically said

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I was able to pet the cat and he

said, that is completely abnormal.

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That cat would never let me touch it.

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And now I can pet it.

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And then unfortunately it,

it died shortly thereafter.

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Um, but even subtle signs like that

can be mean a lot, doesn't say what

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it was, but it kinds of starts to give

us clues like this animal is not doing

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well or, you know, abnormalities.

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But the history is important, but you

also have to look at the clinical picture.

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The history can be kind of, you

know, kind of saying, Oh, it's a

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screaming, uh, a malicious poisoning

case or something like that.

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But then when you start to actually

look at the animal, you're like, well,

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no, that's really not what's going on.

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So use that history for sort of initial

guidance, but then you have to let our

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science, veterinary medicine, uh, really

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put us in that direction of, of

which fork in the road, which

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differentials we need to consider.

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DrG: Yeah, I had, uh, I had a case

where a lady brought in a cat and

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she said that the neighbor poisoned

the cat because the cat was fine

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and then the cat was stumbling

and acting drunk and then it died.

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And when she brought it in on necropsy,

it actually had a urethral obstruction.

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So, it was blocked and the changes that it

underwent from the toxins are very similar

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to what some people would expect that an

animal that was poisoned would look like.

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So, can you share some of the cases

that you have worked on with toxins

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and how you have worked through them?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, sure.

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I mean, the, the, the case that

you're presenting right there,

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the urethral obstruction, I mean,

that, that history, it's obviously

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ethylene glycol, antifreeze ingestion.

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Um, and we see, we see a lot of that.

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Um, so we, we actually do a lot of

research and some of the research we

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do is on, on how to, um, more readily

document those cases and, um, actually

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doing, uh, postmortem chemistry

to, um, estimate antemortem blood

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values for like BUN and creatinine.

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Um, and so we're doing all of that, but

that's, that's, I would say, um, for

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us, for, um, probably the most common

one that we see, um, readily available

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for, for people to, um, have at their

house, whether it's intentional or

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accidental, that's out of the realm of

the veterinary forensic pathologist.

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We just say, this is what it is.

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And then the investigator, you know, Goes

and does their part of the investigation.

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So they're going to be the ones who

are going to be looking more into that.

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Um, but that's quite common.

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That's actually really easy

for us to, to diagnose.

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Um, and we, we do that a lot.

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Um, then you get into some of the

things like the anticoagulants

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again, something that you would see.

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Then you get into more difficult

ones, such as the illicit drugs.

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Um, you know, whether an animal

is fed, um, a laced meatball, you

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know, some sort of food material.

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Um, once we start seeing things, we

asked the clinician, the owner, uh,

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what What do you feed the animal?

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We always ask those sorts of questions on

our, on our submission forms because we

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look at the stomach contents and you're

like, well, you say this is what you

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fed, but you have this in your stomach.

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Um, so that doesn't match.

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And so that might be a little

clue, uh, to go down some of these

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more sort of acute per acute.

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Intoxication.

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And so, uh, illicit drugs would be one.

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Um, uh, pesticides,

insecticides would be another.

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Typically, they cause rapid death.

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Um, the animal doesn't linger on for days.

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Typically, they eat it.

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Um, and they get pretty sick really fast

and you just find them deceased in their

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backyard or wherever they would have been.

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Um, so, you know, I think we see

a lot of different things but

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uh, again, tailoring what we see.

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With our sciences, uh, really help us.

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DrG: I know that also in clinical practice

when animals, especially dogs, would have

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like vomiting or diarrhea and the owner

was not sure, people would always blame

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it on the control, like weed control and,

uh, fertilizer and that kind of stuff.

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So is there any truth as far as the

toxicity level of just stuff that's

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spread out in the yard to treat the yard?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we've, we've, we've

worked on a number of those, those

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kinds of cases where there's some lawn

stuff put down and then the dog is sick

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shortly thereafter, or, you know, within

a couple of days, um, and, and really

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to my experience is a lot of those

animals have some other disease that was.

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Subclinical asymptomatic and it started

to rear its its ugly head at that point.

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Um, and then there's others where

unfortunately um, you know, we we don't

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find any Gross findings at autopsy.

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We, we do a histology looking at the

tissues and we don't see anything.

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And then we offer up doing

some toxicology analysis.

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And, um, again, because it comes

down to finances, um, people

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just don't go that next step.

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And so probably some of those cases do

have, um, some validity, but I think a

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lot of times it comes down to finances.

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And it just doesn't get

fully, uh, worked up.

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DrG: Another thing that people

get concerned about is what

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you brought up as far as asking

people what they feed their dog.

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It's about potential toxins in the food.

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Um, how often, how often do you see that?

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Dr. Stern: Uh, well, in our

lab, we actually, we don't

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get a lot of those cases.

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Um, they, they seem to, there's different

mechanisms, um, reporting these to the,

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the, the federal government where they go

through, uh, some of those other channels.

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Um, we've seen a few.

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A lot of times it's going to be more of

the Bacterial contamination might be in

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there, maybe a salmonella or, uh, some

other bacteria, but we honestly just

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don't, we just don't see a lot of them.

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DrG: If somebody is concerned,

especially like a veterinarian, if

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somebody thinks that an animal has

been, uh, poisoned, what are going

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to be the best samples to take

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and submit and how they're

going to go about doing that?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah.

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So you, you have a difference between

the live animal and deceased animal,

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uh, because the samples we can get are,

are, are obviously vastly different.

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Um, but you have to think about, is

it an acute intoxication or is it

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more of a chronic, did it happen?

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You know, days ago.

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Uh, so with the acute intoxications,

and this is not an exhaustive list,

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you have to think about things, uh,

where the toxins going to be, so vomit.

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Okay, that's going to be a good place.

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Um, gastric contents, uh, goes

along with the vomit, uh, blood,

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because if you inject, ingest it,

it's going to go into circulation.

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And so we want to get

things that are earlier on.

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Um, if it's cutaneous contact, like

something is put on the animal,

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then, then obviously for skin from

that area would be, would be useful.

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Um, In the more chronic cases, again,

it's going to be more of what's in the

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organs and sort of downstream to that.

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So, uh, urine for a live animal,

even feces, sometimes, uh, it's

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going to be excreted in the

feces as well as the urine.

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So that's potentially a way to get it.

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Uh, with the autopsy, it's sort of

the same, the same thought process.

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If it's acute, we go for the, the

bloods, the, the stomach contents,

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um, and even liver, um, it's cause

it's going to be likely metabolized in

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the liver or in the kidneys, and then

for the more chronic, we do organs

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as well as the urine.

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So it kind of, again,

just kind of depends.

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Um, but then you also want to collect

other samples because maybe that drug, um,

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or toxin is maybe, um, likes a lot of fat.

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And so we always collect

some sort of fatty tissues.

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Um, and really just a wide array of

tissues just in case, um, we were

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dealing with some sort of odd situation.

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DrG: I just finished the Forensic

Science Masters at the University of

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Florida, and one of the things that

they tell us also about collection is

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the vitreous fluid inside of the eye.

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Is that something that is

done in animals as well?

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Dr. Stern: So yeah, so we do do that.

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It's good for like in livestock,

for example, testing for nitrates

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and nitrites for cattle, sort of

the acute intoxication for them.

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So yes, we do it.

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Uh, we can detect a number

of different drugs in it.

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Um, even, uh, looking at the human side,

they use vitreous, uh, for a bunch of

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different drugs, so that is definitely

something that you can collect and

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in our lab, we use it for vitreous

chemistry, um, which I kind of alluded

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to earlier with, uh, the antifreeze

cases, um, because you can look at

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things such as vitreous urea nitrogen,

you could look at the electrolytes

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a little bit, um, some just go up.

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With post mortem change, so like

potassium, so it's not really going

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to help you to estimate what it

was in a live animal, um, and even

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glucose levels, uh, so we can identify

theoretically, uh, a diabetic animal

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with a massively elevated glucose levels.

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So, um, you can use it for toxins,

but you can also use it just for sort

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of general, um, health of the animal.

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DrG: Is there any, um, time limit or time

frame that the samples have to be done

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before you cannot get any information.

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Or is the information stay there

for a really long period of time?

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Dr. Stern: So that's a,

it's a great question.

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Um, and it depends.

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Uh, some, some compounds will

break down pretty quickly.

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Their half lives are pretty short

where others, they last forever.

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Um, and I don't mean literally forever.

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: 00:17:25

That breakdown takes

them a very long time.

291

: 00:17:28

Uh, there was a study looking

at, uh, panel Barbara tall.

292

: 00:17:32

And they were looking at

composting of, of pigs.

293

: 00:17:36

And there was also, I believe, a study

in horses, and they found that that

294

: 00:17:40

stuff lasted for years, um, lasted in the

decomposed remains lasted in the soil.

295

: 00:17:48

So some of these toxins, uh, potentially

can be there for, for really long times.

296

: 00:17:52

And we see the issues when, um,

maybe a dog digs up a buried horse

297

: 00:17:57

carcass and gets intoxicated.

298

: 00:18:00

So that we could detect really easily

in, in pretty decomposed remains

299

: 00:18:04

where some other toxins, um, you

have to get to them much faster.

300

: 00:18:09

Like ethylene glycol.

301

: 00:18:10

Um, you need to get that really early

in the phase because it's going to be

302

: 00:18:14

metabolized and excreted and you're

just not going to find it in the body.

303

: 00:18:19

DrG: Is there a cool case that you

have worked recently of toxicity

304

: 00:18:22

that you can share with us?

305

: 00:18:23

Dr. Stern: um honestly, I I

really like the antifreeze cases.

306

: 00:18:30

Um Not because they're they're

relatively straightforward.

307

: 00:18:35

I just think they are um one of these

cases where you know, you get the

308

: 00:18:41

accidents, but then There are truly In

here in Florida, a lot of malicious cases.

309

: 00:18:47

Um, and so being able to identify and

document those cases, um, it's really

310

: 00:18:53

rewarding because there's, there's

a high chance that the end result

311

: 00:18:59

will result in a prosecution if,

if it's determined to be malicious.

312

: 00:19:04

Um, and so it's really straightforward.

313

: 00:19:07

Easy to, um, present that to a court,

to a jury, um, for them to understand.

314

: 00:19:14

I like the, the challenges though,

of some of these unusual cases like

315

: 00:19:18

organophosphates, um, and the carbamates,

uh, because those, those cases, um, you

316

: 00:19:25

do the autopsy and you just, you just

don't see, you just don't see anything.

317

: 00:19:29

There's really no pathology.

318

: 00:19:31

And so you have to start that

sort of treasure hunt of find

319

: 00:19:35

that toxin and find that poison.

320

: 00:19:38

Um, they're expensive, uh, to, to

do that because you, you typically,

321

: 00:19:43

you're like, well, what do I do?

322

: 00:19:44

And so you could do a shotgun approach

and just kind of just do, um, some

323

: 00:19:47

random testing, or you can just

start to go a bit more specific.

324

: 00:19:52

Um, and so.

325

: 00:19:54

It'll depend on the case, obviously.

326

: 00:19:55

But if you have three, four or five

animals who, um, all of a sudden

327

: 00:19:59

they're happy and healthy and then

they're dead, um, then, you know,

328

: 00:20:03

the, the stakes are kind of a bit

higher, uh, because it's, you know,

329

: 00:20:09

definitely, um, screaming poison,

uh, in, in a lot of those cases, so.

330

: 00:20:15

You know, you can do that.

331

: 00:20:16

And then, uh, barbiturate toxicity is

also something that really interests me.

332

: 00:20:22

And we are doing, uh, some research,

um, not only for deceased animals, but

333

: 00:20:27

also, um, living animals, and we're,

we're trying to develop, um, or work

334

: 00:20:32

up a way, um, to diagnose it in the

live animals so that they can get,

335

: 00:20:37

uh, a more timely diagnosis and, uh.

336

: 00:20:41

Tailored treatment to that.

337

: 00:20:42

Um, so a lot of it's just

gonna be symptomatic care.

338

: 00:20:46

Uh, but kind of help with the

getting that diagnosis a bit quicker.

339

: 00:20:51

DrG: So let's jump into starvation cases.

340

: 00:20:54

Um, I've had the opportunity to work

with a couple of starvation cases that

341

: 00:20:58

actually resulted in the death of the

animal, but most of the starvation

342

: 00:21:02

cases are going to be like neglect,

cruelty, hoarding cases where the

343

: 00:21:06

animals are still alive and you kind of

manage those really, really different.

344

: 00:21:11

So let's start with the live animals.

345

: 00:21:14

What, what determines if an animal has

been starved as far as the, the findings,

346

: 00:21:21

the physical examination findings, the

body condition, that kind of stuff.

347

: 00:21:25

Dr. Stern: Yeah.

348

: 00:21:25

So, so obviously I'm, I'm the

pathologist, so I don't treat

349

: 00:21:29

things that have a heartbeat, right.

350

: 00:21:30

Uh, uh, but.

351

: 00:21:34

You know, I mean, they're, they're

going to look the same, the, the,

352

: 00:21:37

they're going to be obviously emaciated.

353

: 00:21:39

And it's really important for you to do

your, your body condition scores and your

354

: 00:21:44

muscle scoring, uh, because these animals

are going to be losing fat, uh, initially,

355

: 00:21:49

um, and really only in the end does that,

does that protein catabolism really.

356

: 00:21:55

Um, go into high gear.

357

: 00:21:57

Um, but besides that, I think the,

the biggest thing is it's actually

358

: 00:22:01

on, it's on the investigator really

at the very beginning, um, to be sure

359

: 00:22:06

that, you know, at the scene, um, you,

you capture obviously that scene with

360

: 00:22:11

photography and all that, but don't

just go and give the dog a treat.

361

: 00:22:15

Um, you know, don't just give them some

water, uh, because you have to be sure

362

: 00:22:20

you, you get that on video, you know, the

first time to get food, the first time

363

: 00:22:24

to get water, um, so that you can show,

look, Hey, I just grabbed this stuff

364

: 00:22:29

out of my truck and the dog just ate it.

365

: 00:22:33

Um, because a lot of times you see,

um, in these cases, the, uh, defense

366

: 00:22:39

is always, well, I tried feeding them.

367

: 00:22:42

Um, I gave them.

368

: 00:22:43

All this great high quality food, or, you

know, this crap food or whatever it might

369

: 00:22:48

be, and the dog just wouldn't eat it.

370

: 00:22:50

But now we have on video, look, we

just randomly gave a small amount

371

: 00:22:54

of food and they ate it ravenously.

372

: 00:22:57

So I think that's really important

and actually really helpful

373

: 00:23:01

information for the veterinarian.

374

: 00:23:03

Because in the, the diagnosis

of starvation is really

375

: 00:23:07

a diagnosis of exclusion.

376

: 00:23:09

Yeah, you really go down the

fact that, look, there's, there's

377

: 00:23:11

nothing else wrong with them.

378

: 00:23:12

These animals are, do not exhibit

cachexia, which is, you know,

379

: 00:23:17

that, that same sort of emaciated

condition, but for very different

380

: 00:23:21

reasons, they are, they're sick.

381

: 00:23:22

They have a systemic disease or even one

organ is affected, but the animal is is

382

: 00:23:28

really sick, like chronic renal disease.

383

: 00:23:31

So I think, um, really, with those cases,

it's the job of the veterinarian to just

384

: 00:23:36

prove that there's no other disease.

385

: 00:23:38

So, you know, doing.

386

: 00:23:39

Uh, blood work, fecal exams, and yes,

you're probably going to find some

387

: 00:23:42

parasites in them, uh, because of

the conditions, but it's not going to

388

: 00:23:47

typically rise to that level unless

you have a massive parasite infection.

389

: 00:23:52

Um, so doing your basic workup, um, and,

you know, getting rid of differentials

390

: 00:23:57

will really back you into the

starvation by exogenous circumstances.

391

: 00:24:04

DrG: Yeah, that's a great point.

392

: 00:24:05

There was, uh, several years ago,

there was a humane officer, it was

393

: 00:24:09

well over 80 dogs that they rescued

from, uh, from a starvation case.

394

: 00:24:14

And, well, a neglect case.

395

: 00:24:15

And I want to say it was a dog

fighting case, but I don't remember.

396

: 00:24:19

But the owner said that the dogs

could not gain weight because

397

: 00:24:24

they had a genetic problem.

398

: 00:24:26

So, you know, that was

kind of like the defense.

399

: 00:24:29

So the officer, the investigative

officer called me and he's like, how

400

: 00:24:33

am I going to prove that these dogs

don't have this genetic condition?

401

: 00:24:36

And I told him, just feed them, just

402

: 00:24:39

Dr. Stern: feed them

403

: 00:24:39

DrG: and then see if they gain weight.

404

: 00:24:41

And if they gain weight,

then it's not genetic.

405

: 00:24:44

And he, and it's such a simple answer

that you just don't think about.

406

: 00:24:49

And they fed them and the dogs fattened

up and then that was the end of that.

407

: 00:24:53

So it was a pretty simple

solution to, uh, what, what

408

: 00:24:56

seemed to be a difficult question.

409

: 00:24:59

Dr. Stern: Yeah, and that, and that

brings up another good point is you're

410

: 00:25:02

going to want to periodically weigh

them, periodically take photographs of

411

: 00:25:06

them, because if you have this dog that

comes in, say on the Purina scale, it's

412

: 00:25:10

a one out of nine, um, which is important

to always say what scale you're using.

413

: 00:25:14

So, um, people can actually go

back and look and don't just say

414

: 00:25:18

it's a, a three out of five and

you know, what scale are you using?

415

: 00:25:21

I have no idea.

416

: 00:25:22

Um, cause all scales are

really not created equal.

417

: 00:25:27

Um, but weigh them, take those

photographs of them to show that

418

: 00:25:30

change, you know, over the weeks of

recovery because they're not going

419

: 00:25:33

to eat and get better in two days.

420

: 00:25:36

It's going to be this long, long

process, but you're going to see

421

: 00:25:39

that that progressive change.

422

: 00:25:42

, DrG: I just recently shared a case

that that I was working on and

423

: 00:25:46

a lot of people got gut reaction

was, Oh my God, feed those dogs.

424

: 00:25:50

And people don't understand that

you can't just throw food at them,

425

: 00:25:53

that there is the whole refeeding

syndrome and you can actually cause

426

: 00:25:56

more problems than not, if you start

feeding these, these starved animals,

427

: 00:26:01

Dr. Stern: Yep, exactly true.

428

: 00:26:02

Yeah.

429

: 00:26:02

You can't just say, here's your, your,

I'm just going to make up a number of

430

: 00:26:06

your 2000 calorie diet, um, because you,

you're, you haven't had food for so long,

431

: 00:26:12

you'll probably end up killing them.

432

: 00:26:14

So.

433

: 00:26:15

You got to do it slowly.

434

: 00:26:17

DrG: Let's go more on your side on the

animals that do die from, from starvation.

435

: 00:26:24

So what are going to be the most

important things that you're

436

: 00:26:27

looking for during that necropsy?

437

: 00:26:29

Dr. Stern: So it's, it's kind of similar.

438

: 00:26:31

So again, we're going to look at, you

know, their fat stores or lack of fat.

439

: 00:26:36

Um, we'll look at their,

their muscle, see how.

440

: 00:26:39

Poorly or well muscled,

they are that sort of thing.

441

: 00:26:42

Um, but then we're going

to go organ by organ.

442

: 00:26:44

Um, every system will get examined for

Um evidence of disease, uh, you know

443

: 00:26:50

these organs with starvation they'll

atrophy So yes, they'll be smaller,

444

: 00:26:53

but we want to show how there's

no, you know, systemic inflammatory

445

: 00:26:58

disease or cancer, renal failure.

446

: 00:27:01

Something like that to explain why this

one animal looks the way it does Um,

447

: 00:27:06

you know, so we're gonna, we're gonna

be doing all that, looking at really

448

: 00:27:10

the entire body, um, but with the

advantage of being able to look at the

449

: 00:27:15

organs themselves and not just looking

at the blood work for organ function.

450

: 00:27:21

DrG: When somebody is asking about

cases of starvation, they want

451

: 00:27:25

to know about the cause of death.

452

: 00:27:27

And then they also want to

know about the time of death.

453

: 00:27:30

So what are the ways that we can determine

time of death on these starvation cases?

454

: 00:27:36

Dr. Stern: So, time of death is

just a whole other ball game.

455

: 00:27:41

Um, there's different ways to, to try to

estimate it and in veterinary medicine,

456

: 00:27:48

um, and even in human medicine, it's,

it's not an exact science, um, you know,

457

: 00:27:53

there's always a new method that someone

comes out with, um, but a lot of it is

458

: 00:27:58

going to be very specific to a certain

location or even research, um, you know,

459

: 00:28:03

very specific parameters, um, and, and,

and, um, For me, it's entomology would

460

: 00:28:08

be it's the well validated, um, and

so we can use the insects, you know,

461

: 00:28:14

if we have some, some maggots, some

pupa, um, on the body, but, or, or even

462

: 00:28:18

around the body, because we have to

look there as well, that's going to help

463

: 00:28:21

us a lot, giving us sort of a minimum

time of colonization for those insects,

464

: 00:28:26

and so that would Move over to, um,

estimate in that post mortem interval.

465

: 00:28:31

So that's really, um, just one way, but

there's a lot of research out there.

466

: 00:28:36

There was, um, I'm working with

a student right now and she

467

: 00:28:39

tried to use, uh, some immune

immunohistochemistry, some flow cytometry.

468

: 00:28:45

Um, but there's all sorts of things

we talked about vitreous humor.

469

: 00:28:49

Uh, so looking at potassium levels in

the eye, um, you know, so there's lots

470

: 00:28:54

of different ways, but a lot of them are,

471

: 00:28:57

especially in the animal realm,

where they're really in its infancy,

472

: 00:29:01

um, I'm trying to work these up.

473

: 00:29:03

Uh, so that's why for me, I fall

back to entomology, uh, especially

474

: 00:29:07

when I have any insect activity

going to be probably very helpful.

475

: 00:29:12

DrG: And I have to say, I hate insects and

that I'm scared of insects, but I learned

476

: 00:29:17

to love insects from my entomology class

during my veterinary forensics training.

477

: 00:29:22

Um, and, and yeah, it's like people

think, again, CSI effect, that

478

: 00:29:27

somebody just looks and some larva

out in the field and says, this

479

: 00:29:30

has been dead for about 12 days.

480

: 00:29:32

And that's not how that works.

481

: 00:29:34

I learned that the hard way because during

my class, I remember at the very end,

482

: 00:29:38

we had to do a time of death estimation.

483

: 00:29:41

And my result was something

like 54 to 800 days.

484

: 00:29:46

And I was like, clearly

I'm doing something wrong.

485

: 00:29:49

And I just redid it so many times.

486

: 00:29:52

And yeah, it was like 54 to 800 days.

487

: 00:29:55

But it's not as specific as

people, as people may think.

488

: 00:29:59

Dr. Stern: Oh, yeah.

489

: 00:30:00

Um, and I just and just to go back to the

starvation thing for a second, because

490

: 00:30:05

I wanted to say, you know, for for me,

the the animal is no longer with us.

491

: 00:30:10

So it's deceased.

492

: 00:30:11

And so I don't have that luxury of

feeding them like we talked about in

493

: 00:30:14

the live animals, see what they do.

494

: 00:30:16

So one of the things we actually

looked for is foreign material.

495

: 00:30:19

Um, in their stomachs and in their

intestines and in whatever fecal

496

: 00:30:22

matter they have, because these

animals are hungry, um, they're

497

: 00:30:26

going to eat anything they can.

498

: 00:30:27

So non nutritious substances, styrofoam,

plastic, um, anything like that is

499

: 00:30:33

going to be very valuable, uh, for us

to say, look, they, they had some sort

500

: 00:30:38

of appetite, they clearly can swallow.

501

: 00:30:42

And so it gives us a little more

oomph to being able to, to sort of

502

: 00:30:46

back our way into that starvation.

503

: 00:30:49

So in

504

: 00:30:49

DrG: the two cases that, that I examined,

um, and one of them, the owner said

505

: 00:30:54

that the dog had parvo and it died.

506

: 00:30:56

Um, and then the, the other

one there was proof that they

507

: 00:31:01

had actually been fighting.

508

: 00:31:03

It was a domestic violence situation

and they literally starved the dog.

509

: 00:31:06

Um.

510

: 00:31:07

But one of the things that I submitted

was femur for bone marrow analysis.

511

: 00:31:13

So, can you explain what, what

is that, uh, and what's the

512

: 00:31:17

information that we can get from it?

513

: 00:31:19

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so, so the femur

analysis, and you're looking specifically

514

: 00:31:23

at percentage of bone marrow fat.

515

: 00:31:26

And so, for me, my viewpoint on that

is that's really an adjunct, uh, to

516

: 00:31:33

Your autopsy, um, your autopsy is

going to be looking at all the systems

517

: 00:31:38

and it's looking at fat stores.

518

: 00:31:40

And one of the things that we

routinely look at, whether or not

519

: 00:31:43

you're a starvation case or not, is

what does your bone marrow look like?

520

: 00:31:48

Um, so in an adult animal,

bone marrow is mostly fat.

521

: 00:31:52

Okay.

522

: 00:31:52

Um, I look at bone marrow.

523

: 00:31:55

So like a can of dog food or

a can of cat food, it is some

524

: 00:31:58

basic macronutrients in there.

525

: 00:32:00

You have water, which is moisture.

526

: 00:32:02

You have carbohydrates, fats, and

protein basically is what you got.

527

: 00:32:08

And then there's ash, which

is a very small percentage.

528

: 00:32:11

Now in bone marrow.

529

: 00:32:12

Um, Adult, mostly fat.

530

: 00:32:14

There's no carbohydrates.

531

: 00:32:15

There's very little protein.

532

: 00:32:17

Um, there's some ash and

very little moisture.

533

: 00:32:20

And so, um, people use that, um, to sort

of quantify the percentage of fat, which.

534

: 00:32:29

For me, I have already

looked at bone marrow.

535

: 00:32:31

I've already said there's

gelatinous change to the marrow.

536

: 00:32:35

I've looked at it under a

microscope to show there's no fat.

537

: 00:32:37

And, and really the fat

analysis, all it's doing for me,

538

: 00:32:40

it's just giving me a number.

539

: 00:32:42

It's, it's more objective.

540

: 00:32:44

Um, and so we're going to give a number

to my subjective, uh, interpretation.

541

: 00:32:50

And so that's really what,

what you can use it for.

542

: 00:32:53

You can't use it to diagnose starvation.

543

: 00:32:56

Um, because it's, it's

not specific to a cause.

544

: 00:32:59

It just says you have very little fat.

545

: 00:33:02

Um, and then you also do have to

be careful, though, that there

546

: 00:33:05

will be cases where you have

very little fat in your marrow.

547

: 00:33:09

Um, but you didn't starve to death.

548

: 00:33:12

So you take a dog who has leukemia, right?

549

: 00:33:15

The neoplastic cells are actually going

to displace and um, You know, efface the

550

: 00:33:20

fat, so that animal is actually going

to have very low fat in its marrow.

551

: 00:33:26

And so if you looked at that

just by itself, you'd end

552

: 00:33:29

up with the wrong diagnosis.

553

: 00:33:31

Um, so any tests that you do, regardless

if it's a fat test or a blood test or

554

: 00:33:36

a toxin test, you have to look at it

in totality and not just as a silo by

555

: 00:33:42

itself, because it's only going to give

you a small piece of information that

556

: 00:33:46

you have to look at it all together.

557

: 00:33:48

Um, and so, uh, I get asked a lot, you

know, if I just send you a bone, well,

558

: 00:33:52

will you tell me anything about it?

559

: 00:33:54

I'm like, I could, we could tell you

that, but we have to look at it in

560

: 00:33:57

the context of, of everything else.

561

: 00:34:01

DrG: So in the, in the cases

that, that we were working, it

562

: 00:34:04

was kind of like that, right?

563

: 00:34:06

The animals were starting to decompose.

564

: 00:34:08

So is, are they missing,

they had no subcutaneous fat.

565

: 00:34:13

So we were thinking that

that's what was going on.

566

: 00:34:16

The stomach, uh, one of the things

that I found in the stomach and was

567

: 00:34:21

that there was like a sludge in there.

568

: 00:34:24

And at first I thought that it was food,

but then discussing with other people,

569

: 00:34:30

I was informed that they will create

somewhat of a sludge in the stomach,

570

: 00:34:34

um, just from the acids and that kind

of stuff that can be confused with food.

571

: 00:34:39

So can you tell us a

little bit about that?

572

: 00:34:41

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so the, these animals

sometimes have gastric ulcers, so

573

: 00:34:44

they'll be bleeding in there, and so

that mixed with the gastric contents,

574

: 00:34:48

the acids and fluids, um, can get

that more sludgy appearance to it.

575

: 00:34:53

Um, so that's also one thing we look

for is do we have gastric ulcers, um,

576

: 00:34:58

because they might have some GI bleeding.

577

: 00:35:01

DrG: So overall, I mean, clearly it's

going to be easier if there's a starvation

578

: 00:35:04

case and somebody wants to consult with

you for you to do the complete necropsy

579

: 00:35:08

rather than look at different samples.

580

: 00:35:11

Is there something, though, if that is

not possible, what kind of things can

581

: 00:35:16

you guide veterinarians in trying to

determine if there was a starvation case?

582

: 00:35:21

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so I think if,

you know, consulting on a case,

583

: 00:35:25

um, basically if someone else is

doing the autopsy, it's always, you

584

: 00:35:30

know, look at everything, right?

585

: 00:35:32

Look at, at everything from the, you

know, the tip of the nose, the tail

586

: 00:35:35

to the feet and everything in between.

587

: 00:35:37

Um, and then work with your pathologist

because they're the ones who can look

588

: 00:35:41

at the tissues under the microscope.

589

: 00:35:43

So we can say, yes, we

don't have any disease here.

590

: 00:35:46

You have all of your your

data that you've collected.

591

: 00:35:49

And it's a really great way to a

have more than one person look at a

592

: 00:35:53

case because it's always better to

have consults and other specialists

593

: 00:35:58

to help back up your claims, um,

and sort of get us to that point.

594

: 00:36:03

So, um, you know, if you think it's a

starvation case and all you submit to

595

: 00:36:11

someone to look at under the microscope

is lung, that's not very helpful.

596

: 00:36:15

Um, so really, you know, give us a

full set of tissues so we can actually

597

: 00:36:19

give you some powerful data that again,

combining with yours, um, really.

598

: 00:36:25

Again, helps, helps the science

show what was or was not going on.

599

: 00:36:30

DrG: How does the University of Florida

help with these cases and what is

600

: 00:36:34

the process that humane officers or

veterinarians, uh, take to send you

601

: 00:36:40

samples or consult with you guys?

602

: 00:36:43

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we, we

work with with everyone, right?

603

: 00:36:46

We'll work with the, uh, the investigator.

604

: 00:36:49

So whether it's law enforcement,

animal control, animal services,

605

: 00:36:52

depending on whose jurisdiction it is

and, and who does what in that area,

606

: 00:36:57

uh, veterinarians, uh, attorneys.

607

: 00:37:00

Uh, and even the pet owner will,

will work directly with them, uh,

608

: 00:37:04

through their veterinarian to sort

of help them through the process.

609

: 00:37:07

But, uh, we, we pretty

much do everything here.

610

: 00:37:10

We do obviously the forensic autopsies.

611

: 00:37:12

Um, we have two, uh, fellows of

veterinary forensic pathology here.

612

: 00:37:17

Um, and so there's going to be

typically, uh, one or two sets of eyes on

613

: 00:37:22

on every case that comes to our lab.

614

: 00:37:24

Um, but we do, uh, whether it's in

house or in consultation with other

615

: 00:37:29

institutions or laboratories, um,

we do, uh, some forensic toxicology.

616

: 00:37:35

Uh, entomology, DNA analysis, uh, we

even, um, work with people who do, uh,

617

: 00:37:41

photogrammetry and so that's for, uh,

often for wildlife, you know, based

618

: 00:37:46

on photographs, how is that image, uh,

whatever in that image, if it's a deer,

619

: 00:37:51

for example, is that the same one that's

You know, we have a dead on the road or

620

: 00:37:57

somebody poached that sort of thing so

we can kind of match the photographs.

621

: 00:38:01

We do, , crime scene response.

622

: 00:38:03

So we'll go out there and help

with the investigators, um,

623

: 00:38:07

whether it's documenting the scene

or helping with an excavation.

624

: 00:38:11

Um, and even if we have live

animals, although I don't practice

625

: 00:38:15

live animal medicine, um, we help

with logistics and we help, um,

626

: 00:38:19

identify people who can help them.

627

: 00:38:22

Uh, so if we can't do it, we will

100 percent say, you know, we're

628

: 00:38:26

not the ones for that, but you

can go, um, to this person and

629

: 00:38:30

they'll, they'll totally help you.

630

: 00:38:32

DrG: Cool.

631

: 00:38:32

And how, what's the website

or how can people get ahold of

632

: 00:38:35

you guys to, to do a request?

633

: 00:38:38

Dr. Stern: Yeah.

634

: 00:38:39

So actually we have a

new website rolling out.

635

: 00:38:42

Um, we literally hit the go button the

other day, so the site, uh, should go

636

: 00:38:48

live very soon, but it's, it's actually,

I'll give you the new address it's animal

637

: 00:38:53

forensics.vetmed.ufl.edu and that will

take everyone to everything that we do um,

638

: 00:39:03

whether it's the services the the research

or even the teaching and outreach that we

639

: 00:39:08

do so it's going to be a one stop shop Um,

we have several other websites But we're

640

: 00:39:14

going to close them all down and and kind

of direct them all to this this one site

641

: 00:39:18

Which we're really excited about this

642

: 00:39:20

DrG: Excellent.

643

: 00:39:21

And we'll make sure to share that

because it's a great resource.

644

: 00:39:24

So finally, I want to close by

talking about the International

645

: 00:39:28

Society of Animal Forensic Sciences.

646

: 00:39:30

So what led you to

found this organization?

647

: 00:39:34

Dr. Stern: So, um, I founded

this organization with, with two

648

: 00:39:37

other, um, individuals, uh, Dr.

649

: 00:39:40

Jason Bird and Adam Leith.

650

: 00:39:42

And it is Geared towards the investigator,

um, because they, they, you know, they

651

: 00:39:50

have a hard job, uh, going out there

and investigating all these cases.

652

: 00:39:55

And sometimes the investigator, um,

really doesn't have that background

653

: 00:39:59

in animal cruelty investigations

and forensic investigations.

654

: 00:40:03

And so we thought this was a, a, a

great way and, and something that

655

: 00:40:07

wasn't really out there, um, to

help, to help this subset of, of.

656

: 00:40:12

Of people.

657

: 00:40:13

Um, and so we, we founded it and

it's, it's taken off really well.

658

: 00:40:20

Um, we, um, have members from all

the habitable, uh, continents.

659

: 00:40:27

Um, so if there's anyone working in

Antarctica and they, they, they want

660

: 00:40:31

to join, they have a free membership.

661

: 00:40:33

Um, you know, as long as they're

dealing with something, um, animal

662

: 00:40:37

forensic related, um, you know,

there's, there's, you know, always.

663

: 00:40:42

Great things that people do out there.

664

: 00:40:44

Um, but we really wanted to, um,

develop an organization that was

665

: 00:40:48

really geared towards the investigator.

666

: 00:40:50

, and, , in doing so we've, have

a great group of people.

667

: 00:40:55

Um, we have actually a

lot of veterinarians.

668

: 00:40:58

Uh, we have some attorneys, law

enforcement, animal control.

669

: 00:41:02

Um, we really have everybody who, who.

670

: 00:41:04

It's all the walks of life that are

involved in these investigations, and

671

: 00:41:08

it's just a great way to, um, sort of.

672

: 00:41:11

Help to, to build one's, um, education,

whether it's, um, foundational,

673

: 00:41:17

like they just started, or they

are a seasoned investigator who

674

: 00:41:22

have been doing this for years.

675

: 00:41:24

There's still, there's

always new things to learn.

676

: 00:41:26

Like, there's always a new technique that

maybe they didn't think about before.

677

: 00:41:31

DrG: One of the things that I have

really enjoyed is the coffee talks.

678

: 00:41:34

Like, I feel that there's a lot

of interaction, uh, and, you know,

679

: 00:41:39

it's kind of nice having something

like that for individuals that

680

: 00:41:43

are interested in forensics.

681

: 00:41:44

, what can people expect

out of these coffee talks?

682

: 00:41:47

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so, look, the

Animal Forensics coffee talks,

683

: 00:41:50

um, We we really like them.

684

: 00:41:53

Um, and the one thing I like about them

is they're short the talks are 15 20

685

: 00:41:59

minutes Um, it's a half hour block, right?

686

: 00:42:03

Um, we get lots of questions and stuff

like that in the end as you've seen so

687

: 00:42:07

like it goes it goes the whole time But

the whole point of them is to teach people

688

: 00:42:12

like one thing, like a lesson learned,

like this actually helped my case.

689

: 00:42:19

Um, it's not there to be, you know, uh,

a 60 minute lecture on a huge topic.

690

: 00:42:25

Like our upcoming one is, is

specifically looking at chemical

691

: 00:42:29

enhancement of, of blood.

692

: 00:42:30

So blue star and luminol and really

just compare and contrast them.

693

: 00:42:35

Um, and that's all that's going to be.

694

: 00:42:37

It's not going to.

695

: 00:42:38

You know, be the, this

whole drawn out thing.

696

: 00:42:40

It's it's, it's to the point.

697

: 00:42:42

Um, but they've been great.

698

: 00:42:44

And the reason why I wanted to do

them really short is the investigator.

699

: 00:42:48

Honestly, they're busy.

700

: 00:42:50

The veterinarian, like myself,

we're, we're super busy.

701

: 00:42:53

And so being able to set aside an

hour or two hours is really hard,

702

: 00:42:59

but for 20 minutes, 25 minutes, they

can sit in their vehicle, um, listen.

703

: 00:43:04

Uh, maybe just kind of do some basic

paperwork, um, and, and learn something.

704

: 00:43:09

And so that's, that's our whole point.

705

: 00:43:11

Um, and we're about to, right

now we're doing it once a month.

706

: 00:43:15

We're about to do it twice a month.

707

: 00:43:16

Um, and so, I mean, You

have so many topics.

708

: 00:43:22

We're going to do like mini

series of we're going to do

709

: 00:43:24

some toxicology mini series.

710

: 00:43:26

We're going to do a mini series

on animal sexual abuse, looking

711

: 00:43:30

at the human side, the animal side

and and some screening techniques.

712

: 00:43:36

So we have a lot of good stuff

planned, and it's always going

713

: 00:43:40

to be a little different.

714

: 00:43:41

And our speakers are

experts in their field.

715

: 00:43:45

So, um, our, our luminol and blood, uh,

sorry, our chemical enhancement for blood,

716

: 00:43:51

um, that's going to be given by Dr.

717

: 00:43:54

Sharon Plotkin, and, and she is an expert.

718

: 00:43:57

Um, and she teaches all this stuff

to, uh, at a local college and

719

: 00:44:02

she's been doing this for decades.

720

: 00:44:05

So, you know, we always try to find

like the best person or people,

721

: 00:44:10

um, to present these topics.

722

: 00:44:12

DrG: Yeah, I really, I really enjoy it.

723

: 00:44:14

And I think that as you mentioned, like

the short time frame makes it easy.

724

: 00:44:18

Um, most of what I do is spay neuter.

725

: 00:44:21

So I'm traveling to locations

and we usually get to a location

726

: 00:44:23

around that time, around 9 a.

727

: 00:44:25

m.

728

: 00:44:25

So while we're setting it up, I'm

just listening and trying to watch

729

: 00:44:29

while we get everything ready.

730

: 00:44:30

So then by the time we're the talk is

over and we can, and we can move on.

731

: 00:44:35

But yeah, I, I really.

732

: 00:44:37

I just really enjoyed the interaction.

733

: 00:44:39

A lot of associations don't have that

right like they they offer support

734

: 00:44:44

and they have articles and that kind

of stuff, but it doesn't feel like

735

: 00:44:48

that continuous flow of information.

736

: 00:44:52

So, so yeah, please,

please keep that up because

737

: 00:44:55

Dr. Stern: we have, I think, 27 talks

planned for the rest of the year so

738

: 00:45:01

like there's there's a ton coming out.

739

: 00:45:04

So we're just confirming all the speakers

before we release the massive schedule.

740

: 00:45:10

DrG: Excellent.

741

: 00:45:11

And what is the website for that?

742

: 00:45:13

Dr. Stern: It's isafs.org.

743

: 00:45:19

DrG: And then you also have

a conference coming soon.

744

: 00:45:22

So do you want to let

people know about that?

745

: 00:45:25

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we have the

Animal Forensic Sciences, uh, Animal

746

: 00:45:29

Forensic Investigations Conference.

747

: 00:45:31

Sorry, it's sponsored by our

lab, the Veterinary Forensic

748

: 00:45:33

Sciences, uh, Laboratory.

749

: 00:45:36

And it is May 20th, 22nd of this year.

750

: 00:45:39

It's in sunny Gainesville, Florida.

751

: 00:45:41

Um, We're close to the beach.

752

: 00:45:43

We're not at the beach.

753

: 00:45:44

Um, but we have a three day event

and it's really covering all

754

: 00:45:51

aspects of the investigation.

755

: 00:45:53

Um, from the investigation itself.

756

: 00:45:55

I think it's about a day's worth of

content for the actual investigation,

757

: 00:46:00

um, to sort of specific types of animals.

758

: 00:46:05

So we have a small animal mini sessions.

759

: 00:46:07

We have a large animal, we have wildlife.

760

: 00:46:10

Um, and then we have a couple

of talks on like preparing

761

: 00:46:13

for court and search warrants.

762

: 00:46:16

Uh, so we really cover everything from

the beginning of the investigation,

763

: 00:46:19

uh, to the courts in the end.

764

: 00:46:22

Um, so we're really excited about that.

765

: 00:46:26

Uh, it's a great lineup of speakers and

they all, they all are very knowledgeable.

766

: 00:46:33

DrG: Yeah, I'm excited about it.

767

: 00:46:34

I'm excited that it's in Florida.

768

: 00:46:35

So, um, as of right now, I'm

planning on attending because I

769

: 00:46:38

think it's a really great lineup.

770

: 00:46:40

Well,

771

: 00:46:40

Dr. Stern: you have great, you have

great speakers to pull aside and have

772

: 00:46:44

little sessions with if you want.

773

: 00:46:47

DrG: Oh, oh, I'm planning on that too.

774

: 00:46:49

So you may want, you may want all

your participants that I'm going

775

: 00:46:51

to be hitting them up if I show up.

776

: 00:46:53

Dr. Stern: Absolutely.

777

: 00:46:54

We'll, we'll gladly have you.

778

: 00:46:57

DrG: Excellent.

779

: 00:46:58

So is there anything that

I've forgotten to cover or

780

: 00:47:01

anything that you wanted to add?

781

: 00:47:04

Dr. Stern: No, I think I, I really

enjoyed this chit chat in the morning.

782

: 00:47:08

Um, I think, you know, I just

want everybody to know that

783

: 00:47:12

we're here to, to help them.

784

: 00:47:14

Um, you know, I always say, And there's

no, there's no silly question, right?

785

: 00:47:20

Um, you can always ask a question

and you may, or you may get an

786

: 00:47:24

answer of, Oh, that's super easy.

787

: 00:47:26

Or no, no one's ever thought about

that, but it is a really good

788

: 00:47:29

question or something in the middle.

789

: 00:47:31

Um, but don't be afraid to ask questions.

790

: 00:47:33

Um, tell my students that all the time.

791

: 00:47:36

I tell everybody when I lecture,

it's like, just stop me.

792

: 00:47:39

Just ask me a question.

793

: 00:47:40

I'd rather, I'd rather be able to talk

to you than talking sort of at you.

794

: 00:47:44

Um, when I give a seminar and things

like that, but ask questions, we're,

795

: 00:47:48

we're absolutely here to, to help.

796

: 00:47:51

And, you know, we might not be

able to help you, but we can, you

797

: 00:47:54

know, maybe find somebody who can.

798

: 00:47:56

Um, but there are those cases where,

you know, unfortunately, like the,

799

: 00:48:01

the answer that you want, you just,

you just can't get it, but, uh,

800

: 00:48:06

reach out to us and we'll totally

chat and figure out what's going on.

801

: 00:48:11

DrG: And that makes sense, right?

802

: 00:48:12

Because that's what we're about.

803

: 00:48:13

We're about answering questions.

804

: 00:48:15

It's just the nature of what we do.

805

: 00:48:18

Dr. Stern: That's right.

806

: 00:48:19

The biggest question I get asked

is, is, you know, why dead, right?

807

: 00:48:22

Um, you know, for entomology,

it's, it's how long dead?

808

: 00:48:26

Uh, you know, so, so you

just ask a question and we

809

: 00:48:30

try to come up with a plan.

810

: 00:48:33

DrG: Excellent.

811

: 00:48:34

Well, thank you so much for taking

the time for being here, to be here.

812

: 00:48:37

Uh, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

813

: 00:48:39

I think it's a great start to our To,

to getting more of these episodes out.

814

: 00:48:45

So, uh, this has been great.

815

: 00:48:47

I hope that, that the listeners have

learned and anything that people have

816

: 00:48:51

not gotten, we've given them resources

and websites to, to follow up so

817

: 00:48:56

that they can get more information.

818

: 00:48:58

So I hope you have a great day with

the rest of your day and to everybody

819

: 00:49:02

that's listening thank you for

listening and thank you for caring.