Episode 5

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Published on:

27th Sep 2025

Season 1: State v Steffen Baldwin / Episode 5: Taking TOPS to the Bottom

Steffen Baldwin lied about his credentials and past experience to enter the animal world through the Union County Humane Society. With lies, deception, and the help of social media, he developed a persona who gained the trust of the animal welfare community. Due to his perceived greatness as the Executive Director of Union County, he was hired to run the Top of Ohio Shelter in Bellefontaine, Ohio. In his short period of employment, he took a promising yet struggling shelter to a point of no return.

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Transcript
Melissa Chase:

We had theft from ACT Ohio, which was Stefan's nonprofit organization.

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And from TOPS, which is the top of

Ohio PET Shelter in Logan County.

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That was one of the theft counts.

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Dr. G:

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Hi, and welcome to the

Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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This is Season One, State versus

Steffen Baldwin, Episode Five:

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Taking TOPS to the Bottom.

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This episode is about how Steffen Baldwin

entered the Top of Ohio Shelter, uh,

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initially as a board member and then

became executive director and everything

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he did to basically not help the shelter.

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As always, these episodes contain elements

of animal abuse and domestic violence.

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So please take care of yourselves

and if you need to take a pause,

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take a pause, and then come back.

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This episode is a collection of videos

that I had from while we were working

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with TOPS, as well as some interviews with

some of the individuals that worked with

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Steffen at that time, and then some of

the court testimony about TOPS of Ohio.

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Det. Jim Conroy:

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In January 1st of 2015, he'd become

the executive director of TOPS Ohio.

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Which they were paying

him a $40,000 base salary.

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So now he had income coming in again.

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But instead of changing his ways, he

just continued to spend the ACT Ohio

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money on himself while not paying you.

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So where was that money going?

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It was going to his life expenses.

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He was buying his, his, his

son gifts, Christmas presents,

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birthday presents, toys.

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He was buying himself video games.

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All kind of things.

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His child support payments he was

making, um, he had taken $20,000 out of

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cash with no receipt or no, I, no idea

what happened to the $20,000 he spent.

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He filled up his gas at Gas Marts.

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Uh, he spent like $16,000 in gas

stations and gas marts, uh, fast food.

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He was, uh, somewhere in the

vicinity, I think of like,

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uh, $6,000 on fast food alone.

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Uh, then he was going to restaurants

and bars and alcohol, um, then dates

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and his dating life and girlfriends and

hotels and overnight stays and vacations.

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All of this was paid for, uh, you

know, 95% with ACT Ohio money.

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. Erica Tyler: My name's Erica Tyler.

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Previously Erica Cooper.

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I was a kennel technician at Top

of Ohio Pet Shelter under Steffen.

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He was our interim director for quite

some time, so I worked under him there.

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Dr. G:

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So how about you start by letting

the audience know about, um, how you,

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how you became involved with Tops.

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Erica Tyler: Oh yeah.

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So my grandmother served as board

president for quite some time, but, um,

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from a really young age, like five or

six years old, my grandma and I would

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volunteer at, you know, the Humane

Society before it was even called Tops.

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So we always had some level of

involvement at helping out at, at

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the shelter, rather, you know, she

was serving on the board or not.

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But when I moved back to Ohio from

Alabama, um, my grandma, I believe

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she was serving on the board at that

time, but just not as president.

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Um.

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Or was at least very heavy,

heavily volunteering.

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She wanted me to go work there as

a kennel tech and, and they were

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in dire need of staff at the time.

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So I started there and it was actually

a different director before Steffen.

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Randy Schmidt: My name is Randy Schmidt.

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At the end of TOPS, I was

the president of TOPS.

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But in 2014, uh, a friend who had recently

gone out there, Carol, she said, well,

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why don't you come out, you know, come

out and, you know, see the dogs and stuff.

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And so as it got towards winter,

uh, there in the beginning of:

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they put out a thing that said, you

know, the dogs don't get out much.

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Uh, it'd be great if anybody can come out.

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Well, I don't mind getting

carhartts and boots on and

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take the dogs out in the snow.

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And, and they seemed to really love it.

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And it was nice because there were

not many people out there at the time.

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So I'd try to get 'em out, you

know, about 10, 15 minutes.

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I had about eight or 10 of 'em

that were my regulars, so to speak.

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My major was in marketing from college.

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So I would basically

try to market the dogs.

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I would come back in, we'd sit in the

lobby for a little bit, you know, the

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dog just sit next to me and people come

in and go, oh, that's a really nice dog.

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Well, his dog's available, you know,

so they were, the joke kind of became,

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after a while, uh, I need Randy to walk

me today 'cause I want to get adopted.

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So 2014 went, you know, pretty fine

and, like I told, you know, the judge, I

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said I was just out there for the dogs.

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I was there to walk the dogs.

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I love dogs, have dogs and just

to get them out and help out, you

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know, any way I could out there.

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Um, but I didn't want anything to

do with board or control because

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I knew a little bit of the history

in this county and that it's always

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been kind of a bit of a crap show.

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So it was like, I don't want

to get into any of that.

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I'm just here for the dogs.

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Erica Tyler: Tops has a, a long

history, even before it was Tops of

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corruption and, and bad management.

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And it's always had this sort

of gray cloud over its head.

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Um, the Executive Director that was

serving there had her whole family working

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there, which, um, I know the board and my

grandmother had concerns of like, nepotism

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and things, you know, to have your entire

family on the payroll and maybe not having

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them do quite as much as everyone else.

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So, uh.

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Ironically, the day that, uh, that

executive director walked out was

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the day after Tops was robbed.

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Um, and the safe got smashed on

the floor and, uh, the current

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executive director actually threw

me and another employee under the

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bus and thought that we had done it.

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I was like, I didn't do that.

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I was at home in bed, you know?

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Chris Dewitt: My name is

Christopher Anthony Dewitt.

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I served as board president and

as a board member with TOPS,

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roughly a couple of years.

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Steffen i met originally in Union

County some years before that,

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working with the shelter

here, walking dogs.

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And then, his name came up

very often in the dog world.

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And I got to know Steffen when he came

to serve, uh, and work at TOPS of Ohio.

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He, uh, initially just

served as a board member.

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Uh, we asked him, or I did,

I asked Steffen to come on.

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And, uh, then secondly, when we had people

leave, uh, we needed, uh, a leader, a

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director, and I asked Steffen to do that.

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Well, Steffen had, you know,

in the dog world, it's a very

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close, you know, group of people.

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Uh, he had a good name, um, especially

with the bully breeds and unfortunately

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where we're at in Logan County, we

have many, many pit bulls and, uh,

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that's how I knew Steffen He had a

name of being able to, uh, work well

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with the dogs that were special needs.

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He had the ability, you know, to

retrain them and so that they could

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potentially have a, have a home again.

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We had, um, uh, an implosion at, uh, at

Tops and, uh, we lost approximately five

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or six staff members that were there.

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Um, we were reeling and I pretty much

begged Steffen buddy, please help us.

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And, uh, and that's how he came

about with the, with that position.

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Randy Schmidt: So as 2015 started,

they had a big board meeting

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and, uh, there were some issues

with the, the previous hierarchy.

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And, there was a change made in

that particular board meeting.

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Not very well done either.

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So at that point, the Executive

Director was kind of out.

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Steffen I believe, was

already on the board,

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well, he was the logical person

that was close by to put in

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as the Executive Director.

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Supposedly gonna be for about three

months just to find somebody else.

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Chris Dewitt: Most of the people that

served on the board were just mom and dad.

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Like my wife and I, we love animals.

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And, uh, we were not savvy with

what it was about, to run, you

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know, a facility like that.

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Steffen had that expertise and so we all

leaned on him, you know, for direction.

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It was a full-time, uh, job.

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But I understood he had a son and he

and I had talked about having some

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leeway with, you know, time, uh,

to be able to take care of his son.

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And of course I said, we can accommodate

that, you know, we will work that out.

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But it was a full-time job.

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Randy Schmidt: I didn't know him from Boo.

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I didn't, you know, I didn't much

care what all went on, uh, heard.

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It was pretty nasty.

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And, you know, I would come in

to walk a dog and say, okay,

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so who's, who's in charge now?

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Who's doing what, you know.

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I would hear his name as

now the Executive Director.

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And everything went along until,

um, well:

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And at one point in June we

voted to add board members.

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He asked me at that time, you know,

Hey, you know, we need to fill some

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of these board seats and so forth.

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All right.

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You know, I'm thinking, uh, with my

history at, at, at Honda and management

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and so forth, and so maybe I can help

out a little bit and do something,

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help get things turned around and,

you know, so we filled a number of

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seats and that was in June of 2015.

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I said I would serve as a Vice President,

but Chris Dewitt you need to be the

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president 'cause I don't have the time and

I don't have the desire to be president.

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Erica Tyler: And, uh, ironically

being robbed is what led to Steffen

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becoming our interim director because

he stood in after that, that Executive

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Director and her family left.

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So it's kind of, it's a

little ironic in hindsight.

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I was thinking about that

today and I was like, O!

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Dr. G:

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Did you have any interaction with Steffen

before he became executive director?

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Erica Tyler: Um, not in person.

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Um, I did follow him on social media

because when I'd moved back, my grandma

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was like, there's this guy, you know,

he's helping severe behavioral cases.

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He's really advocating for pit

bulls and, you know, she, she spoke

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fondly of him, which, you know, I,

I'm always, I took my grandma's word

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for it, for good reason, you know?

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Dr. G:

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How were things when he first started

as executive director at TOPS?

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Erica Tyler: I, I would

call it optimistic.

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I mean, we were working on making

a lot of big changes for the

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shelter, a lot of needed changes.

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There was a lot of remodeling going on.

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As you might recall,

we had Lowe's come in.

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You put the, we did the cleaner.

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You know, uh, I think our animals were

more taken care of, uh, medically.

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And, , there was a cleaner facility.

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We remodeled that trailer out there.

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Scott's Lawn came out and volunteered

for a day along with, the

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big grant we got from Lowe's.

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And I think we were all optimistic

that maybe this was the change

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that our shelter needed after such

a long line of bad management.

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And I think we were all just fooled.

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Randy Schmidt: I got sucked in by the

guy as much as everybody else did.

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He was, seemed very professional.

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He seemed very calm, not get excited.

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Dr. G:

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When he took over, like before he

took over, he reached out to me and

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said, Hey, like, well, because we

had been joking about doing like

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a shelter makeover type thing.

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Erica Tyler: Right?

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Like Extreme Home Makeover.

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Shelter edition.

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Shelter Edition.

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Dr. G:

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Exactly.

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And that's actually I think

what we were calling it, right?

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And it was like, let's go to shelters

that need help and then help 'em with all

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the things from structural to management

of the animals and health and adoption

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and spay neuter and all that stuff.

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So, so yeah.

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So it was, I thought that he was doing a

really good job at the beginning because

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he brought me in and everybody was so

welcoming and so open to the changes.

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Um, right.

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And yeah, I mean, we got that cleaning

solution donated for free by the company,

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which is a really expensive machine, but

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Erica Tyler: it's

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Dr. G:

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big

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everybody thought that they were,

you know, they were doing this for

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the shelter and yeah that Lowe's

thing, they came in and completely

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remodeled that shelter to make it into

kind of like a little mini clinic.

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Erica Tyler: Yeah, yeah.

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It, that trailer was tailored for doctors,

uh, on your staff to come do intakes.

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And I helped with some of

those intakes and it was great.

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You know, that trailer was a big

old piece of crap before we touched

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it, and it was unusable and it

was mostly used for, for storage.

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So that was, I mean, that

was an optimistic time.

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I think we were all really excited.

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I mean, I know myself, once you

came in, um, I obviously had zero

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veterinary experience that up until

that point, you know, I learned a lot

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just from being at the shelter and we

learned a lot of behavioral things and

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things we could do to help the dogs.

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So at that point it was good.

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DrG: I remember when I started going

up there to look at the shelter, uh,

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one of the first things that he had

me do was look at three dogs that

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had been at the shelter for a really

long time and that were aggressive

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and only a few people could handle.

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And I wanna say that Chuck was the only

one that could walk at least one of them.

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Um, because, and they had been

there for at least three years.

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It was like a really long period of time.

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And it was kind of like a sad

situation because at that point we're

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talking about warehousing and the

dogs are not gonna get any better.

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Right?

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Like, you have a dog that is, is yes.

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You know, like losing his

mind inside of this run.

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Yeah.

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And it lives in that run all the time.

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And I can only see one person.

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Right.

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And when I went to the shelter,

he pulled me aside and said, Hey,

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these dogs need, need euthanized.

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And he explained to me

the reasoning behind it.

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Right.

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And I said, absolutely.

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I completely agree.

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Like it's, it's not fair to

keep these dogs like this.

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And then he exactly said, well, but

the staff is really attached to the

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dogs and I don't think that they

understand about euthanasia, so I

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need you to talk to them about it.

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And I went in and I pulled everybody

over and I explained everything to

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them, and everybody was fine with it.

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And, and to a, to an extent, some of

them were, how I say, I don't wanna

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say happy because they were not happy

that the dogs were being euthanized.

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But it was that relief that that poor

dog was not gonna be in a kennel.

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Yeah.

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All the time.

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And a tiny kennel.

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We're not talking about a

big kennel in, in a tiny run.

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Right.

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And, and I fee and I thought,

they don't have a problem with it.

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Like they're not, they're

not upset about it.

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So what was this whole thing about?

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And, and I realized that it's because

he wanted it to be my decision.

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Right.

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Not his decision.

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Because he can fix any dog.

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Exactly.

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So yes,

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he,

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DrG: he didn't make that decision.

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Realistically, they're not his failures.

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If anything, it's my failures

or my recommendations.

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Right.

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And that's something that I

didn't learn until a lot later.

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Erica Tyler: I actually remember

two of the three dogs names.

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We had Devlin, which was like a, a

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a blue nose pit bull.

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It was a gray pit bull.

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Um, Moose, he was like a black

and white stocky pit bull.

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And I'll tell you, I don't remember

the third dog's name, but those two

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dogs that I mentioned particularly

had to go in particular cages outside.

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'cause if you put them in, like your

average, like pop-up crate, those dogs

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would walk that cage, destroy the the

tray inside of it, walk the cage over to

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another dog and fight it through the cage.

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I mean, that, that is.

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I didn't understand quite at

the time, I don't think, or

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maybe I hadn't thought about it.

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Had I thought about it, I think

I would've, you know, understood.

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But when you, you talked to

us about it, it made me think

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a little bit more about it.

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And I mean, Devlin had, you know, happy

tail so bad from being in those cement

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cages and moose did get walked by one

particular volunteer pretty often,

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but that is no life for a dog to live

for, you know, four to five years.

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I remember doing it, I remember sitting

with Chuck and us sitting out in the shed

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and being like, we did the right thing.

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You know, like I, I remember that day

very clearly, even being so, so long ago.

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DrG: He would go to these shelters

and like Franklin County Dog Shelter,

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and even when he got Remi, like

he would go to shelters and accuse

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them of not working with the dogs

and just wanting to euthanize them.

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And he would allegedly rescue them.

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Did he ever work with the dogs at Tops?

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Randy Schmidt: I never saw him

work with any dogs at Tops.

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I'd try to get out there at least

twice a week, maybe three days a

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week, and, you know, and I would get

them out and just play and run and

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throw snowballs with ' em and stuff.

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Like, sit under a tree.

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I've got one where I'm sitting

underneath a, a tree out there

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with 'em and just let them be dogs.

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You know, I never, I never saw

him do that with any of the dogs.

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I saw him observe some dogs, supposedly,

uh, that there was some questions on.

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But I didn't ever see him

really do anything with, with

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training, any of them or anything.

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Everybody kinda acted like he was

this dog whisperer that, you know,

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knew all about dogs and any pits

and any others that had questions.

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Um, he's kind of the guy that decides

whether they're retrainable or not.

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Dr. G:

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Because that was his jam.

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His jam was taking a dog that is

deemed unadoptable and aggressive

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and then rehabilitating it.

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And I'm, I'm of the big belief

that you start at home, right?

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You'd have to take care of your home

before you can help somebody else.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it doesn't feel like he

was taking care of his home.

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Erica Tyler: I, uh, I wrote that down too

because he came in talking this big game

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and there's one particular case, ginger,

I don't know if you remember this dog.

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He was like a, a red mix of

sorts, but this dog was wild.

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Um, when Chuck and I would try to get him

out of his run, he had one of those big

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double runs in the, in one of the kennels.

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He would like snap at our hands

and we couldn't get him out.

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But, we begged Steffen like,

please come help us with this dog.

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Please.

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We, we really wanna help him.

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You know, Chuck, and I'll do

whatever you tell us to do,

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but, you know, we need advice.

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We don't know what to do.

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And I don't recall who it was, but

somebody was in town visiting Steffen,

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another trainer, and he was at the shelter

and he said, you know, guys, he said,

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you take that, that leash, that slip,

lead and stick a hot dog in the middle.

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He'll put his, his face through it,

and then you, you know, you loop him.

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We did that, we did it every day for

probably close three to four months,

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and by the end of it, we could get, uh,

ginger out, like a, like a gentleman.

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Um, and then Chuck started taking Ginger

home and I have a photo, I actually just

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ran across it before our interview of

Ginger standing about three feet from

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another dog, which he couldn't do, you

know, previously he was just unsocialized

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and he needed a little guidance.

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Um, but I was thinking about

those other three dogs.

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You know, why, why didn't

you a at least try?

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Instead, he gravitated towards a dog named

Codley, who I know lives in a happy home.

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He's all gray, muzzled, you know, he's,

he's an old man living his best life and

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he gravitated towards Codley, who was also

a longtime resident, but couldn't be more

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dog friendly and friendly towards people.

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Robyn Haines: Let's talk about

who you brought with you today.

363

:

Steffen Baldwin: Sure.

364

:

So this is Codley.

365

:

Um, and Codley came from

the TOP of Ohio Pet Shelter.

366

:

That's one of the rural

shelters that both Dr.

367

:

Gonzalez with the Rascal Animal

Hospital and my organization

368

:

with ACT Ohio help out.

369

:

We do a lot across the state,

mostly in rural areas, just trying

370

:

to help animals wherever we can.

371

:

And there's a lot of struggling

shelters, very small rural shelters

372

:

and TOP of Ohio Pet Shelter is one of

them, and Codley just came from there.

373

:

He actually spent three out of four years.

374

:

He's four years old.

375

:

He spent the first three years

376

:

at the shelter.

377

:

He's only been out for a short while.

378

:

He developed some skin problems.

379

:

The hospital is treating skin problems

and we're working on rehabilitating

380

:

him and getting him used to being

out of a shelter because three years

381

:

is a long time to be in a shelter.

382

:

And, uh, he's doing great so far.

383

:

Things are a little new

to him, new experiences.

384

:

First time he is been on tv, of course.

385

:

Robyn Haines: Right.

386

:

This is his debut, so

he is a little nervous.

387

:

He's gotta sniff around, make

sure he knows what's going on.

388

:

Yeah,

389

:

Steffen Baldwin: I figured he

spent three quarters of his life

390

:

basically in a, in a rural shelter,

in a high stress environment.

391

:

So, uh, he's doing fantastic

for, for that kind of experience.

392

:

That's just one of the many things that

Rascal Charities does and that we partner

393

:

with Rascal, with ACT Ohio to do is just

to help animals in need across rural Ohio.

394

:

Erica Tyler: So he showed off

Codley on his social media.

395

:

I have a picture of it somewhere, and.

396

:

Oh, I helped this dog from TOPS.

397

:

You didn't help that dog

from TOPS do anything.

398

:

He was already a nice dog.

399

:

You know, and I, I wonder a lot

of times, you know, now it's so

400

:

obvious, but, hindsight's 2020.

401

:

Dr. G:

402

:

What would you say was, were the first

signs that there was something not okay?

403

:

Erica Tyler: I.

404

:

I feel like I had a special in to

knowledge just because grandma was

405

:

so close to so many board members,

which maybe isn't right, but I, I

406

:

heard whispers of Steffen acting like

he was working more time than he was.

407

:

Chris Dewitt: It started out pretty good.

408

:

Uh, he was showing up, uh, but uh,

shortly, I'd say within a a month's

409

:

period of time, there were more time away.

410

:

I was being called at home myself

stating that Steffen's not here.

411

:

There's no one in, in the

office to run the office.

412

:

My wife and I, uh, would come

in and, uh, I run the show, uh,

413

:

basically with, uh, myself and other

board members that were coming in.

414

:

Melissa Chase: Okay.

415

:

So you, you started getting

calls from employees.

416

:

How frequently were you getting

calls to come down to the shelter?

417

:

Chris Dewitt: Daily.

418

:

Melissa Chase: Were you there

at the shelter on a daily basis?

419

:

Chris Dewitt: Yes.

420

:

Melissa Chase: And when you came to

the shelter, when Steffen wasn't there.

421

:

You know, how typically

how long were you staying?

422

:

Chris Dewitt: Uh, staying from,

uh, you know, three to four hours.

423

:

Uh, sometimes all day

for the entire shift.

424

:

Melissa Chase: How difficult

was it to get ahold of Steffen

425

:

when he was not at a facility?

426

:

Chris Dewitt: Difficult.

427

:

He would not return calls many times.

428

:

And then when I would talk to him,

um, it just, he, he would be evasive.

429

:

He would show up eventually midday and,

uh, you know, be around for a few hours.

430

:

Sometimes he would stay until closing.

431

:

Other times he would leave

after a couple hours.

432

:

He had, um, his own, um,

433

:

ACT Ohio and, uh, workers had come

to me and told me that he was doing

434

:

ACT Ohio work while being paid

on our, um, you know, time clock.

435

:

And, uh, those were things that

we would discuss also, that, you

436

:

know, when you're here, you know,

please do what we need done.

437

:

Erica Tyler: So the board

wanted him to start clocking in.

438

:

And I, as a joke, one day was like, I have

a question for Steffen, like, where is he?

439

:

They're like, he's supposed to

be here like 45 minutes ago.

440

:

I'm like, well, he's not.

441

:

So I went in and grabbed that

poster board of him that says only

442

:

a punk would hurt a dog or a cat.

443

:

And I put it in his just chair and

I was like, where are you boss?

444

:

I've got a question for you.

445

:

And I sent it like, I think

I posted it on Facebook even.

446

:

I think it shows up with

my memories time to time.

447

:

So.

448

:

I mean, after that initial optimism,

he was there less and less and less.

449

:

And when he was, he was working on ACT

stuff or he was on the phone and you know,

450

:

there's a time we were so short staffed,

but Chuck and I were working seven days

451

:

a week for like three or four months.

452

:

And he was like, oh, I'll come, I'll

come do the cats in the garage, or you

453

:

know, I'll come help you clean kennels.

454

:

'cause you know, Chuck's off or whatever.

455

:

And if he'd show up, he'd be

on his phone or be in the way.

456

:

And it's like.

457

:

Why don't you just stay outta here?

458

:

You're, you're too much on my way.

459

:

And I think from that point on,

there really started to be some

460

:

issues with Steffen, you know,

between him especially and the board.

461

:

But he was just not there to do his job.

462

:

James Renner: Today, as I said, I

received more documents, including

463

:

this, uh, autobiography that

Steffen started writing about:

464

:

"I would make an appearance at work,

tell the staff I had an offsite meeting

465

:

and obligations, and would go home and

smoke pot while I watched old sci-fi

466

:

reruns or spent hours passively looking

at porn online and masturbating."

467

:

Erica Tyler: Steffen had a huge

opportunity to, if he knew so much

468

:

about animal behavior, to teach us

as a, as a staff, a lot of things.

469

:

I think he like tried to tell

us how to break up a dog fight.

470

:

But we had already been doing that

because we had all these, you know,

471

:

cuckoo for Coco Puff's dogs and he had

a huge opportunity to, to share his

472

:

knowledge and, and teach us things and

training and, you know, we could send

473

:

dogs out the door, maybe more dogs that

474

:

were more well behaved than

they were, but I don't recall

475

:

him ever teaching me anything.

476

:

His buddy that was a trainer

taught Chuck and I something.

477

:

But everything I've learned was from when

you started coming with your staff to the,

478

:

to the TOPS and then the following five

to six years that I've been at Rascal.

479

:

And you know, now I serve on

the board and I'm still somewhat

480

:

involved with, with Rascal things.

481

:

He, he didn't teach us anything.

482

:

We, we learned everything from,

from Rascal and zero outta 10 stars.

483

:

. Zero outta 10.

484

:

I can't, can't recommend.

485

:

Dr. G:

486

:

Yeah.

487

:

And you know, we started doing, one

of the things that we started doing to

488

:

be make the shelter more progressive

was doing the spay and neuter.

489

:

Right.

490

:

And one of the things that we were doing

was we were getting sponsors for the

491

:

dogs to get spay and neuter for free.

492

:

Yep.

493

:

Which was supposed to bring the shelter

money and get the, the shelter animals

494

:

spayed and neuter for free, and then bring

the shelter money for like admin fees

495

:

for hosting us and that kind of stuff.

496

:

Right?

497

:

And everything was set and

it's the same setup that we do

498

:

everywhere throughout the state.

499

:

And yet it was not working out and I was

being told the shelter's losing money.

500

:

Erica Tyler: Well, I do remember

I was the one that made the little

501

:

pictures for the sponsors for the

cork board and the Facebook page.

502

:

And um, I remember it

being a really good idea.

503

:

I mean, the idea of working at

Rascal at that point was just

504

:

like, Ooh, that looks cool.

505

:

But I remember you guys

coming once a month.

506

:

I remember the pure chaos in the

shelter 'cause we had dog cages

507

:

lining that long hallway and, um.

508

:

I don't remember a ton, obviously

financially, 'cause I wasn't

509

:

involved in the finances.

510

:

But I do re remember hearing whispers

of, you know, we're losing money on this.

511

:

Like, we can't do this as often.

512

:

And I, I, that's never made sense to me,

especially now that I have the insight

513

:

of how our, you know, the Rascal clinics

work and you know what the bottom line is

514

:

as far as what, what we need to be there.

515

:

And I mean, if you tack admin fee

of $5 on every public dog that comes

516

:

in, you can get there pretty quick.

517

:

You know, it's easy.

518

:

Dr. G:

519

:

Yeah.

520

:

And you know, again, it's like the same

setup that we do everywhere that we go.

521

:

Right?

522

:

And we're going to areas that, you know,

don't have a lot of resources, that don't

523

:

have a lot of, a lot of funds, um Right.

524

:

And people are able to make a

difference in their communities.

525

:

Somewhere, uh, that, you know, especially

with the beautiful shelter that Tops was

526

:

and the great location and everything

else, and the need from the community,

527

:

and not just the need for the community,

but the, how can I say, the sponsorship

528

:

from the community for these dogs

that needed fixed at the shelter?

529

:

Right?

530

:

Like I would remember that I would

post that list of like nine dogs

531

:

that needed sponsored and it would

be filled out within an hour.

532

:

Like somebody wanted to

sponsor that dog to get fixed.

533

:

Erica Tyler: Full, full.

534

:

And to this day, the need is so

high here that our clinics, when

535

:

we are able to have them here in

Logan County, fill up in days and.

536

:

The demand is high.

537

:

It's still high.

538

:

I think it'll be high

for a really long time.

539

:

Um, but yeah, I think we had

the right idea, but I think that

540

:

maybe he was screwing it up from

the inside as he seems to do.

541

:

Yeah.

542

:

Melissa Chase: Would you state

your name for the record, please?

543

:

Shelby DeLong: Shelby DeLong.

544

:

Uh, previously Shelby Ramsey.

545

:

I was hired there as the bookkeeper

when I was finishing college

546

:

or close to finishing college.

547

:

I did everything financial based.

548

:

When I was hired, they had recently

experienced fraudulent activity from the,

549

:

the previous people that were running it.

550

:

So they were just trying to sort out

all of the financials in general.

551

:

Um, and they just needed some help.

552

:

It wasn't a great financial situation.

553

:

There was stacks of paper everywhere.

554

:

I was focused on sorting out and

understanding how much it cost to operate,

555

:

um, and understand what outstanding

bills they had and outstanding debt,

556

:

um, to help make everybody aware of

the financial situation and then,

557

:

um, understand it, what it would

cost for us to continue to operate.

558

:

Um, when I started sorting that out,

I found that like the gas bill hadn't

559

:

been paid in a really long time.

560

:

Um, they were getting

ready to turn it off.

561

:

So we had to sort that out.

562

:

During that time they had, I wanna say

the company was called maybe Brentlinger

563

:

and Associates doing their payroll.

564

:

And how that worked is they processed

the payroll, um, and then they

565

:

would withhold the taxes, child

support, things of that nature.

566

:

So the withholdings

from the, the paychecks.

567

:

And then we would, we were supposed

to write checks, um, for those

568

:

bills and send them with like

the slip that they enclosed.

569

:

Um, and then that wasn't being done, and

that hadn't been done in a long time.

570

:

Melissa Chase: Would you state

your name for the record, please?

571

:

Danielle Ramsey: Danielle

572

:

Melissa Chase: Ramsey.

573

:

How did you become treasurer

of the organization?

574

:

Danielle Ramsey: Um, I was the only

one on the board with experience

575

:

as running the bookkeeper, so

I volunteered for the position.

576

:

Melissa Chase: I know you were sworn

s a board member in August of:

577

:

When did you start as a treasurer?

578

:

Danielle Ramsey: Um, around September.

579

:

September 15.

580

:

Melissa Chase: So at that time,

who had control of the money or

581

:

the finances of the organization?

582

:

Danielle Ramsey: Um,

Steffen and Chris Dewitt.

583

:

Melissa Chase: And who, for

you, who was able to sign

584

:

checks in those types of things?

585

:

Danielle Ramsey: Steffen and Chris.

586

:

Melissa Chase: Who had the debit cards?

587

:

To the best, best of your knowledge?

588

:

Danielle Ramsey: Steffen and Chris.

589

:

Melissa Chase: when you started

looking at TOPS financials do you

590

:

remember what your first discovery was?

591

:

Danielle Ramsey: Probably

592

:

Melissa Chase: how far back in

debt they were with their vendors.

593

:

And then it came to light that they

had not been paying payroll taxes.

594

:

Danielle Ramsey: Um, I like to

match up when I do my books.

595

:

I like to match up everything to a

receipt when the expenses come in,

596

:

um, so that you can cross reference.

597

:

So we were missing receipts,

yeah, the payroll taxes, how far

598

:

we were behind with the vendors.

599

:

And then I wanna say there was an employee

whose child support was not getting paid.

600

:

So the priority for me when I took over

was just basically caring for the pets.

601

:

So you have your payroll that you

have to pay, the payroll taxes, and

602

:

then anything involved with the pets

as far as their day to day expenses.

603

:

So their shelter, their care, um, food.

604

:

Det. Jim Conroy:

605

:

So in my investigation of then going

back and looking at all the Tops

606

:

records, he started stealing in August.

607

:

So the, the, the second

bookkeeper didn't catch that one.

608

:

So he, he had stolen from

them buying Facebook ads.

609

:

She was on the ball.

610

:

She actually contacted Facebook

and wanted proof of all these

611

:

purchases that he was making.

612

:

'cause then in the end when the

results came back, he had made more.

613

:

Um, and I think there were five

total purchases for Facebook ads.

614

:

Um, but she originally not only caught

him on that one before, that emergency

615

:

meeting, after he resigned, then she

got the records back, like in May,

616

:

like we're talking five months later

after he resigned that showed that

617

:

he made all these purchases.

618

:

None of them were for tops,

all of them were for Act Ohio.

619

:

Melissa Chase: Do you remember

the situation with Facebook ads?

620

:

Danielle Ramsey: There were significant

charges that were coming from Facebook.

621

:

Um, so I did question

Steffen what they were for.

622

:

And I was told that they were

like to boost posts for different

623

:

events that the shelter was having.

624

:

Um, we're a rural community,

so I did not think that the

625

:

boost should cost that much.

626

:

So I did reach out to Facebook

directly, um, and I re Facebook sent

627

:

back, um, screenshots of the ads

that they were not for TOPS of Ohio.

628

:

Melissa Chase: And who were

they for these Facebook ads?

629

:

Danielle Ramsey: Uh, one

of 'em was for ACT of Ohio.

630

:

I don't know if they were all for ACT.

631

:

I know they were boosting other

events not related to TOPS.

632

:

Melissa Chase: And how much was the

amount of money that he owed TOPS?

633

:

Danielle Ramsey: $452 and 68 cents.

634

:

Det. Jim Conroy:

635

:

She's there a month and a half and catches

him, you know, making a purchase in

636

:

Warren Township, Michigan for a GoPro.

637

:

Like, why, why are you buying

a GoPro video in Michigan?

638

:

How is that a TOPS?

639

:

How is that a TOPS item?

640

:

And then he claimed the, uh,

purchase of the GoPro was that,

641

:

oh, TOPS his credit card looks

just like ACT Ohio's credit card.

642

:

So I accidentally used TOPS.

643

:

And she's like, okay, well you have,

you know, you need to pay it back.

644

:

And he agrees to pay it back.

645

:

The purchase he made of the GoPro, he gave

the ACT Ohio card first at the Walmart

646

:

in Warren, Michigan and was rejected

due to lack of funds and then gave the,

647

:

uh, Top of Ohio Shelter credit card

and then purchased the GoPro with that.

648

:

So his stories of making mistake

of the credit card was not true.

649

:

He knew exactly what he was doing.

650

:

'cause his credit card for ACT

was getting rejected, then he

651

:

would use the tops to pay for it.

652

:

Uh, and none of it was for tops of Ohio.

653

:

So when we found out that he had, uh,

somehow he had put $1,300 of TOPS money,

654

:

um, he had charged, uh, a cat to that.

655

:

It was an ACT, Ohio cat.

656

:

And he had charged it to TOPS,

but it was an ACT Ohio cat.

657

:

So they caught it again.

658

:

They caught him, Hey, this

$1,300, it's not one of our

659

:

animals, it's an ACT animal.

660

:

Um, you need to, uh, pay that money back.

661

:

So this is a complicated story here.

662

:

Melissa Chase: So I wanna talk

to you also about a $1,300 charge

663

:

from Rascal Animal Hospital.

664

:

Danielle Ramsey: So there was a cat

that the shelter got a call on, I

665

:

remember, that needed medical care

and was taken over to Rascals, and

666

:

Christina Beery at the time was the,

uh, TOPS office manager, and she

667

:

denied acceptance of the cat.

668

:

I'm not sure how that came about.

669

:

Um, but then all of a sudden I got

an invoice from Rascals for the cat.

670

:

So Christina brought it to my attention

that she was aware of this cat and that

671

:

the shelter had denied it and was not

taking responsibility for this cat.

672

:

Melissa Chase: How much was

the invoice that you got?

673

:

Danielle Ramsey: It was about $1,300.

674

:

Melissa Chase: So what did

TOPS do with that:

675

:

Danielle Ramsey: I confronted it to

Steffen and Steffen said that ACT of

676

:

Ohio was taking on responsibility of

that cat, and that he would submit

677

:

for reimbursement for that 1300.

678

:

Instead of him writing a check

though for the:

679

:

the agreement was that he would pay

for the uh, apply $1,300 to the next

680

:

spay or neuter clinic that came.

681

:

Det. Jim Conroy:

682

:

So he says, okay, well I'll

just pay them the $1,300, then

683

:

you guys don't have to pay her.

684

:

That'll take care of that.

685

:

So then he writes your, uh, business,

a check for $1,300 and then writes on

686

:

it, um, for spay neuter in the notes

section and deposits it into his,

687

:

to the TOPS account at your place.

688

:

'Cause you had a TOPS account

as well for the spay and neuter

689

:

clinics that you were doing.

690

:

And then he then notifies them that

he paid the $1,300 back to you guys

691

:

and that, you know, TOPS was good.

692

:

Couple days later he calls up,

I believe Michelle Scott and

693

:

says, Hey, I made a mistake.

694

:

That money should have been put into the

ACT Ohio account, not the TOPS account.

695

:

So she rerouted that deposit

from TOPS, leaves TOPS thinking

696

:

they're, they're getting their

$1,300 that they owe you pay.

697

:

He now reroutes it to his

account in ACT Ohio and then

698

:

does never does pay TOPS back.

699

:

Um, so that's how that story ended up.

700

:

And then you ended up losing

13, that $1,300 as as well.

701

:

Melissa Chase: Did TOPS get

paid $1,300 from ACT or from Mr.

702

:

Baldwin?

703

:

Danielle Ramsey: No.

704

:

When I called Rascals, they said

that $1,300 credit was applied to

705

:

ACT of Ohio's account, not TOPS.

706

:

Det. Jim Conroy:

707

:

So the early September was like $114

ad for Facebook, And for a GoPro

708

:

video that he bought in Michigan.

709

:

So a month goes by,

it's the end of October.

710

:

He hasn't paid it back

yet, and she gets upset.

711

:

So she sends this private message,

uh, email out to all of these TOPS

712

:

members stating, Hey, he's taken money.

713

:

I, I confronted him with it.

714

:

He's supposed to give it back.

715

:

It's been a month.

716

:

He hasn't paid us back yet.

717

:

So she called a secret meeting

or an emergency meeting to have

718

:

him come to the board and explain

these purchases to the board.

719

:

And then in the, in the, then

there was like offshoots of other

720

:

private emails between board

members of like, okay, how do we.

721

:

Can we fire him?

722

:

Can we vote him out?

723

:

We say we're talking about

getting voted out or firing

724

:

him as the Executive Director.

725

:

So, um, he, that day sends her

a check and pays the money.

726

:

Um, so that kind of

quells that part of it.

727

:

So then they have their

meeting that night.

728

:

They don't put him, they don't

make him explain anything.

729

:

He paid it back, whatever

they accept his, his reasons.

730

:

Um, you know, one of the things

that tops is that, you know,

731

:

there was a freeze on the money.

732

:

That there was no more spending,

uh, because they had to pay

733

:

the IRS and that was the number

one goal at that point in time.

734

:

And you were contacting him

about, Hey, you know, we need

735

:

paid, we need some on your bill.

736

:

Can you pay us?

737

:

Because, you know, you've gotta

meet payroll and, and, you

738

:

know, owed you a lot of money.

739

:

And you guys, you know, you needed

some kind of payment and I think Tops

740

:

owed you like $7,000 and he, at that

time owed you like 16, uh, thousand.

741

:

And so then he goes in and pays like

several thousand dollars from TOPS

742

:

even though there was a freeze on the

money was by their, uh, bookkeeper.

743

:

And it was agreed upon by everybody

that, that no more money would be spent

744

:

on anything except for essentials for

the animals and paying towards the,

745

:

uh, bill that they owed the IRS and

that uh, uh, then the attorneys too

746

:

were also house attorneys, were also

the attorneys for TOPS same attorneys,

747

:

and he owed them money

as well from ACT Ohio.

748

:

And he owed them money as well from TOPS.

749

:

So then he paid them a

few thousand dollars too.

750

:

Uh, you know, to satisfy you, to satisfy

them that you guys got some payment.

751

:

I, neither of you could care

less this just needed some

752

:

payment from one or the other.

753

:

'cause both places owed you thousands

of dollars, owed the lawyers thousands

754

:

of dollars, but he then went to TOPS

and he paid out of TOPS account.

755

:

. So I don't, I wanna be clear that he

didn't pay what TOPS money for what

756

:

ACT Ohio owed either one of you.

757

:

He just used that as a way to keep

you guys satisfied, didn't care what

758

:

problems that caused TOPS, which

caused them problems, which, um,

759

:

uh, it caused an immediate meeting.

760

:

Danielle Ramsey: The email below was

sent out on 10/16/15 to you and Chris

761

:

notifying you the funds for the shelter

were running low, manageable, but low.

762

:

As at that point in time we were waiting

for the check for the county for 7,000.

763

:

I indicated that I'm only keeping

necessary accounts current as we needed

764

:

to make sure we could cover payroll.

765

:

I'm concerned as to why Rascal units was

paid $3,676 and 12 cents on 10/23/15.

766

:

I was specifically holding this bill as

we do not have the funds to cover it.

767

:

Why was this payment not mentioned

at the board meeting when I was

768

:

talking about paying the back taxes.

769

:

Unfortunately, taxes get paid prior

to Rascal's or any other vendor.

770

:

I'm also a bit concerned on

why an additional bill was

771

:

paid on 10/26/15 to Holland and

Murden for $2,023 and 38 cents.

772

:

These payments have severely drained

our funds and should not have been paid.

773

:

Melissa Chase: Did the

emergency board meeting happen?

774

:

Danielle Ramsey: Mm-hmm.

775

:

Melissa Chase: What were

the board members' decisions

776

:

about these two payments?

777

:

Do you remember?

778

:

Danielle Ramsey: They

779

:

Melissa Chase: agreed that they

were not necessary payments.

780

:

And Mr.

781

:

Baldwin actually resigned

his position at TOPS correct?

782

:

Danielle Ramsey: Correct.

783

:

Dr. G:

784

:

So one of the things that I wanna

explain is why it was such a big

785

:

deal for us that TOPS was not on

top of paying us for our bills.

786

:

So the way that the Rascal

unit works is that the hosting

787

:

groups, so in this case, tops.

788

:

Would schedule the appointments

and they would collect the money

789

:

from the clients for the surgeries

that were being performed.

790

:

So Tops was basically holding our money

that the clients were paying them.

791

:

And then on the backside we were

helping fundraise to pay for some of

792

:

the surgeries of the animals from Tops.

793

:

So in general, tops should

have been making money.

794

:

So they're collecting our money.

795

:

And every single clinic that we travel

to, at the very end of the day, they

796

:

write us a check for the clinic.

797

:

And that's in our contract.

798

:

That's how it works for every

single place that we go to.

799

:

And that was explained

800

:

to Tops.

801

:

I mean, Steffen was aware that that's

802

:

Dr. G:

803

:

how this worked.

804

:

And the first few clinics, this was

working fine, and then all of a sudden

805

:

it was, oh, they didn't leave a check.

806

:

Oh, they left a check, but it

didn't have the two signatures.

807

:

Like there was some.

808

:

Weird excuse.

809

:

And it was really upsetting because

we were working at a deficit.

810

:

And our biggest problem, our biggest

concern has always been payroll.

811

:

We wanna make sure that the employees

are paid, you know, every, every

812

:

payroll as they should for the

hard work that they're doing.

813

:

So they're holding our money that the

people paid for our services, and then

814

:

they're not giving us our money back.

815

:

He never explained to us that the board

was refusing to pay us because of the

816

:

IRS tax, you know, the taxes and the

past due amounts and all of that stuff.

817

:

So he is telling me that the issue

is that somebody didn't leave

818

:

a check, somebody didn't sign.

819

:

That it's all just lack of responsibility,

when in reality there are all these

820

:

conversations and in the background

they're thinking that we're basically

821

:

costing them money because they

don't have money to pay us.

822

:

Yet, we're going there and providing

a service that is coming out of

823

:

their pocket, and it wasn't, the

clients were paying upfront for the

824

:

services that we were providing.

825

:

Erica Tyler: I worked there up until

Steffen's exit and then the very beginning

826

:

of Barbara Faulkner being our ED.

827

:

And I think she's the one that

finally, I think we were having

828

:

Rascal clinics up until Steffen left.

829

:

Right?

830

:

Or is that, is that accurate?

831

:

Mm-hmm.

832

:

And then Barbara kicked us to the curb.

833

:

Dr. G:

834

:

Right.

835

:

Erica Tyler: Okay.

836

:

Um, I worked there until about a

month before the shelter closed.

837

:

They didn't give the

staff very much notice.

838

:

I think it was, for me, it was

heartbreaking because that was

839

:

a place I spent a lot of time

since I was a really young age.

840

:

But I, I, if you would've asked me if I

thought Steffen had the anything to do

841

:

with us closing, then I would've said no.

842

:

I think he was a bad manager,

but I don't think it's his fault.

843

:

But seeing the court documents come

out is just a different level of.

844

:

Yuck.

845

:

Randy Schmidt: The hierarchy that was in

there before Steffen, they, they set a

846

:

lot of things in, in, in the problem mode.

847

:

And, and again, it, it just made it a

very attractive situation, I think for

848

:

somebody like Steffen who's a master

manipulator to begin with, you know?

849

:

Erica Tyler: Um, but we had a big

problem with still housing dogs

850

:

that didn't need to be adopted out.

851

:

Um, in that transition between

Steffen and Barbara, there was

852

:

a lot of turmoil with the board.

853

:

Randy Schmidt: And, and as turmoil

will have it, it basically, it feeds

854

:

to that type of a situation for

somebody like him to take advantage of.

855

:

Come December of 2015, the board meeting,

Chris had stepped down in November as

856

:

far as president and which then put

me in the position of being president.

857

:

But that would have to be voted

on in the meeting in December.

858

:

The meeting in December brought both

factions into the, into the meeting

859

:

room and all of a sudden everybody

shows up for this board meeting

860

:

other than just the board people.

861

:

And it's absolute chaos.

862

:

I've never been involved

with anything like it.

863

:

And, uh.

864

:

Have this chuck from back in the

back of, I'm not afraid of you.

865

:

I'm not afraid.

866

:

I'm not asking you to be afraid of me.

867

:

Wait a minute.

868

:

Am I here sitting here

threatening you or anything?

869

:

Uh, it was just absolute chaos.

870

:

Well, what happens?

871

:

And I told, uh, officer Conroy about that.

872

:

I said, Chris Dewitt had already

resigned as of, uh, November, but

873

:

he wanted to stay on the board.

874

:

Steffen then steps down

at that December meeting.

875

:

So both of them were gone.

876

:

Um, and, and everything's in chaos.

877

:

I said, I always had my questions

of if the two were together.

878

:

If they were in cahoots together,

they both knew what was going on.

879

:

So therefore they both quit

at the exact same time.

880

:

'cause that's when Chris said, I'm off the

board and Steffen goes, I'm out of here.

881

:

So both of 'em walk at the exact

same time and in this huge chaos.

882

:

And I said, it just made me wonder

at times who knew what, who was maybe

883

:

protecting what or wasn't protecting

what And and again, I told him,

884

:

you know, until the trial I really

didn't know as we talked, was Steffen

885

:

basically using Chris as a patsy, which

is what Jim said as it turned out.

886

:

He said, I said, well, you see

what I, what I told you about?

887

:

I couldn't really tell

what was happening there.

888

:

He goes, yeah, I get it.

889

:

He said, but I think you

had it figured right.

890

:

I think Steffen being the

smooth talker and everything,

891

:

basically used Chris as the patsy.

892

:

Erica Tyler: Steffen had a lot

of turmoil with other employees.

893

:

Um, I was, I think I might've been in

Alabama or something visiting, but I know

894

:

Steffen showed up to the shelter and was

acting kind of aggressive and had his, his

895

:

service weapon, his service weapon, his

service weapon, and, and you know, there's

896

:

a couple men there that had an issue with

him already, and I think that just went

897

:

sour.

898

:

So I think they, they, there's a lot

of turmoil between him and the board.

899

:

But

900

:

Randy Schmidt: I was going to, I

think a funeral up in Cleveland,

901

:

the one day Christina calls me.

902

:

Steffen evidently had his badge on

when he came in and had his gun.

903

:

And then there was,

904

:

DrG: this was the

905

:

day after the, after the meeting, right?

906

:

That he, he came in to get his last

paycheck or something like that?

907

:

Randy Schmidt: I think so.

908

:

And, and Christina's calling me,

I'm on 71 heading to Cleveland.

909

:

I'm going, well, you know, I, I

can't, you know, I can you, you

910

:

know, call the cops if you have to,

you know, do whatever you gotta do.

911

:

'cause you know, you know, Chuck

unfortunately was somewhat, not always,

912

:

he might've been act, uh, imbibed

once in a while when he was at work.

913

:

DrG: The next day, I'm pretty sure it

was the day after that board meeting

914

:

that he shows up at TOPS and he was

standing up front, dressed up as a humane

915

:

officer with his gun on his holster.

916

:

And the people inside of TOPS were

really concerned because they said

917

:

that he looked like he was crazy.

918

:

And he texted me and said, oh,

they're making this big deal out of

919

:

it because I'm wearing my, my weapon.

920

:

That's part of my uniform

as a humane officer.

921

:

So he, you know, and yeah, I

had no reason to, to doubt it.

922

:

Like, I was like, okay, I guess

he's allowed to have a gun, but

923

:

realistically he was doing that

to intimidate these people, right?

924

:

Like, kind of like, here I am and I'm here

to get what I want and I'm wearing a gun.

925

:

So what are you gonna do about it?

926

:

Det. Jim Conroy:

927

:

Exactly.

928

:

Yes.

929

:

No, I agree with you.

930

:

'Cause uh, you know, the police report

was made of that incident and he did

931

:

downplay it to you and to other people.

932

:

He talked about in his messages, uh,

they're making a big deal, but there

933

:

was a report filed on him for, he did,

you know, frighten people that day.

934

:

'cause he did get into a shouting or

screaming match with one of the employees.

935

:

Uh, so a report was filed on him.

936

:

He was again contacted by the

Logan County Sheriff Department.

937

:

Then he came in and he

made a written statement.

938

:

And in that written statement, and

again, these are the things that we

939

:

use in charging him, he stated, I

was carrying a firearm as part of my,

940

:

uh, you know, as part of my duty in,

in uniform, uh, as I'm allowed to,

941

:

according to Title ix, which was, was

complete bs and none of that's true.

942

:

He's not entitled to carry anything.

943

:

But he actually wrote that in his

statement to, uh, Logan County Sheriff's

944

:

Department about that incident.

945

:

That, that was why I had my

firearm on, because I was acting,

946

:

you know, in my position as a

humane agent for Union County.

947

:

I just came to drop off keys.

948

:

Um, and that was it.

949

:

But then I talked to, you know,

interviewed the people from, uh,

950

:

Logan County and said, Hey, you

know, how often, you know, did

951

:

he, uh, come with that gun on?

952

:

Oh yeah.

953

:

All the time.

954

:

He came all the time.

955

:

It wasn't just that day.

956

:

It was whenever he came,

957

:

Erica Tyler: I remember I received

a phone call that day from

958

:

Chuck and he said, Patch, you'll

never guess what just happened.

959

:

And I'm like, what?

960

:

You know, I thought maybe a dog

had gotten out and he had to

961

:

chase it around the shelter.

962

:

You know, something silly like that.

963

:

Steffen just showed up here

with his gun, you know?

964

:

I was like, oh my.

965

:

He is like, he should have seen it.

966

:

I said, I wish I did.

967

:

'cause people bring that up all the time

and they're like, do you remember that?

968

:

I'm like, I wish I did,

but I wasn't there.

969

:

But I've heard all about it many times.

970

:

Especially Chuck.

971

:

He loves to talk about that.

972

:

Dr. G:

973

:

So what happened?

974

:

So what happened afterwards?

975

:

Erica Tyler: These dogs that we

had, I remember specifically one

976

:

was a corso from Indian Lake,

977

:

and the Dog Warden brought her,

and I don't remember which, but it

978

:

lived in one of our outside kennels,

but it had like shelter and a dog,

979

:

dog house, and food and water.

980

:

And this dog finally got to the point

where you couldn't go in the cage and turn

981

:

your back on it, or it would lunge at you.

982

:

And the day I quit, I went out

there, I went to try to feed the dog

983

:

and I couldn't even open the cage.

984

:

I walked up front and I said, you know.

985

:

This dog's a liability.

986

:

It's gotta go.

987

:

Like, we, we can't feed it.

988

:

I said, are you gonna go

back there and feed it?

989

:

And uh, Barbara at the time said no.

990

:

And I said, then I quit.

991

:

And I dropped my keys

on the desk and left.

992

:

And they also had RTC in there

helping us clean kennels to try to

993

:

help with the, the short staffed and.

994

:

I know you're not from Logan County and

people listening might not know, but RTC

995

:

is a program, um, or a 501c3 organization

we have in Logan County that employs

996

:

people who are disabled so they can

work and they usually travel with like a

997

:

buddy, you know, that can help them work.

998

:

And I was like, this isn't safe for

people that don't know anything about it.

999

:

Not to mention someone that's

disabled and maybe not strong

:

00:55:23,032 --> 00:55:24,412

enough to handle some of these dogs.

:

00:55:25,522 --> 00:55:27,202

That's not your choice to make Erica.

:

00:55:27,202 --> 00:55:29,782

And I said, well, you know,

what is my choice to make?

:

00:55:29,782 --> 00:55:30,292

I quit.

:

00:55:30,922 --> 00:55:34,162

And I looked for, uh, I looked for

work for about two weeks until I

:

00:55:34,162 --> 00:55:38,272

sent somebody a message over at

Rascal and said, Hey, I need a job.

:

00:55:38,392 --> 00:55:38,722

Okay.

:

00:55:38,722 --> 00:55:39,562

Can you come in tomorrow?

:

00:55:39,682 --> 00:55:39,982

Yep.

:

00:55:42,322 --> 00:55:43,762

The rest is history, I suppose.

:

00:55:44,438 --> 00:55:44,439

Dr. G:

:

00:55:44,439 --> 00:55:48,648

Yeah, and one of the problems that

happens with, you know, union County.

:

00:55:48,648 --> 00:55:53,268

He had this really long time at Union

County and things were not what they

:

00:55:53,268 --> 00:55:55,368

seemed to be, but nobody knew that.

:

00:55:55,548 --> 00:56:01,158

So he goes to top of Ohio and they

take him at his word because he

:

00:56:01,158 --> 00:56:03,798

spent all this time with Union

County and look at the great things

:

00:56:03,798 --> 00:56:05,118

that he says that he did there.

:

00:56:05,388 --> 00:56:10,038

So they take him into

tops and he destroys tops.

:

00:56:10,338 --> 00:56:12,648

But still nobody really knows about it.

:

00:56:12,918 --> 00:56:14,598

And this is dangerous because.

:

00:56:14,943 --> 00:56:18,063

These are not the only places that

he was trying to do things with.

:

00:56:18,513 --> 00:56:24,453

Um, you know, we're going to talk now to

another director who he kind of tried to

:

00:56:24,453 --> 00:56:29,403

do something similar and she had no reason

to know otherwise, because, you know,

:

00:56:29,643 --> 00:56:31,873

he was at Union County, he was at Logan.

:

00:56:31,893 --> 00:56:37,053

He has this great social media presence,

so he must be doing something right.

:

00:56:37,651 --> 00:56:41,161

Jenn Thomas: I am Jenn Thomas and I am

the Executive Director at the Ross County

:

00:56:41,161 --> 00:56:43,501

Humane Society in Chillicothe Ohio.

:

00:56:44,641 --> 00:56:48,131

DrG: Can you tell us about your

experience, like when you first Steffen,

:

00:56:48,151 --> 00:56:51,691

like what was the circumstance that

you guys come in contact with him?

:

00:56:52,186 --> 00:56:56,116

Jenn Thomas: So I started on

the board of directors as a

:

00:56:56,146 --> 00:56:59,746

board member in:

:

00:57:00,166 --> 00:57:04,786

Um, at that point, I was solely

responsible for, as a board member

:

00:57:05,146 --> 00:57:09,526

finding and making rescue connections,

um, whether that be other shelters

:

00:57:09,526 --> 00:57:11,266

with rescues, other things.

:

00:57:11,266 --> 00:57:13,486

And so that was primarily

what I focused on doing.

:

00:57:14,026 --> 00:57:21,136

Um, I took over as the director in August

of:

:

00:57:21,136 --> 00:57:25,696

with Steffen and I don't remember who

made that connection for us, but the

:

00:57:25,696 --> 00:57:28,696

whole idea was that he was going to come

:

00:57:28,996 --> 00:57:31,996

to our shelter and see

what we had going on.

:

00:57:31,996 --> 00:57:36,046

And at that time we had a really big

money crisis, meaning we were spending

:

00:57:36,046 --> 00:57:37,606

way more money than we were making.

:

00:57:38,086 --> 00:57:44,206

And he presented himself in a way that he

could help us with the dogs that we had,

:

00:57:44,206 --> 00:57:48,376

which at that time was well over a hundred

dogs in our facility, which is too many.

:

00:57:48,916 --> 00:57:52,486

Um, and with figuring

out ways to fund things.

:

00:57:52,486 --> 00:57:56,896

And if I'm not mistaken, I think we

paid him to come and speak to us.

:

00:57:56,896 --> 00:57:58,036

And it was after hours.

:

00:57:58,036 --> 00:57:59,386

Several of my board members came.

:

00:57:59,386 --> 00:58:02,446

There were several members of

the public that came and he

:

00:58:02,446 --> 00:58:05,056

just, he was very charismatic.

:

00:58:05,056 --> 00:58:09,136

He just presented himself in a

way that made us think that he

:

00:58:09,286 --> 00:58:10,756

knew what he was talking about.

:

00:58:10,756 --> 00:58:14,776

So, um, that was my, like my

really first experience with him.

:

00:58:14,971 --> 00:58:18,916

I think during that visit, I remember

him walking through the back and we had,

:

00:58:19,936 --> 00:58:21,796

I don't, there's 50 dogs in the back.

:

00:58:21,796 --> 00:58:26,206

A lot of dogs, and a lot of them had been

there for a while, probably too long.

:

00:58:26,836 --> 00:58:30,766

And we were asking him like, do

you think you can help these dogs?

:

00:58:30,766 --> 00:58:35,656

And like his, his biggest sentiment was

all of these dogs can be helped, but I

:

00:58:35,656 --> 00:58:37,996

can't help them, but they can be helped.

:

00:58:37,996 --> 00:58:38,626

And so.

:

00:58:39,526 --> 00:58:43,576

We kind of were a little starstruck

almost by him, but he really

:

00:58:43,576 --> 00:58:46,966

didn't give us any like information

about like what we could do.

:

00:58:47,056 --> 00:58:50,776

The only thing he really

recommended was, um, bingo.

:

00:58:51,316 --> 00:58:52,726

He was like, you need to do bingo.

:

00:58:52,726 --> 00:58:54,046

He is like, that's how we fund everything.

:

00:58:54,046 --> 00:58:54,676

Like do bingo.

:

00:58:54,676 --> 00:58:58,006

And I, I think he might

have told me Rascal as well.

:

00:58:58,486 --> 00:59:00,226

Now that I'm thinking about it, he did.

:

00:59:00,226 --> 00:59:03,226

He was like, you know, you can

charge people twice what Rascal

:

00:59:03,226 --> 00:59:04,666

charges you and you can make money.

:

00:59:04,666 --> 00:59:07,906

And then the, you know, you

still get animals fixed.

:

00:59:07,906 --> 00:59:10,666

And that may be how we got

connected with you, honestly.

:

00:59:11,206 --> 00:59:13,966

Um, but yeah, he, we were, I.

:

00:59:14,151 --> 00:59:16,191

You know, I, I was dumb.

:

00:59:16,431 --> 00:59:17,061

I was new.

:

00:59:17,061 --> 00:59:19,851

I didn't know I trusted him and

we needed money and we needed

:

00:59:19,851 --> 00:59:21,111

to figure a way to get out dogs.

:

00:59:21,111 --> 00:59:25,971

But I didn't realize until shortly after

that some of the things that he was doing

:

00:59:25,971 --> 00:59:29,301

or maybe suggesting probably wasn't gonna

be in the best interest of the dogs.

:

00:59:30,796 --> 00:59:35,206

DrG: Yeah, I remember that he had reached

out to me and said that he met with

:

00:59:35,206 --> 00:59:39,856

you guys and that you were looking into

restarting the spay neuter program because

:

00:59:39,856 --> 00:59:44,026

we used to go to Ross County before you

got there, and then things were not very

:

00:59:44,026 --> 00:59:46,726

good and we stopped traveling there.

:

00:59:47,056 --> 00:59:49,876

Um, and then we, we came back.

:

00:59:50,236 --> 00:59:54,766

So, so, you know, so he's kind of

like giving you these ideas that are

:

00:59:55,456 --> 00:59:57,736

not really leading too much anything.

:

00:59:57,736 --> 01:00:00,256

So did he follow up or

what happened after that?

:

01:00:00,556 --> 01:00:01,336

Jenn Thomas: Not really.

:

01:00:01,396 --> 01:00:03,766

Um, he, he didn't really follow up.

:

01:00:03,846 --> 01:00:07,446

I had reached out to him several times

afterwards about different, difficult

:

01:00:07,446 --> 01:00:11,543

dogs that we had, and I, I started

following him on social media and

:

01:00:11,543 --> 01:00:14,873

there were several things on there

that I started, I personally started

:

01:00:14,873 --> 01:00:16,553

to notice that made me uncomfortable.

:

01:00:16,913 --> 01:00:20,153

A lot of the, the dogs that he was taking,

he would have pictures of them with his

:

01:00:20,153 --> 01:00:24,353

kids, like in, in, in his house or on his

porch with all, you know, 14 other dogs.

:

01:00:24,353 --> 01:00:25,223

And I just was like.

:

01:00:25,448 --> 01:00:28,028

I just feel like this is not a

great situation, and I didn't

:

01:00:28,028 --> 01:00:29,468

know any of his training methods.

:

01:00:29,468 --> 01:00:30,938

He didn't talk to us about that.

:

01:00:30,938 --> 01:00:35,798

But beyond that, the only other

thing that he really pushed was he,

:

01:00:36,098 --> 01:00:39,698

he wanted to, I believe he wanted

to bring a camera crew at one point.

:

01:00:39,698 --> 01:00:43,058

I think he was trying to start a reality

show, and I feel like we were a means

:

01:00:43,058 --> 01:00:46,493

to that end, like we were this poor

shelter who didn't have any money and

:

01:00:46,493 --> 01:00:49,373

had all these dogs and a new person

who didn't know what they were doing,

:

01:00:49,373 --> 01:00:52,433

and he was gonna come in and he was

gonna be the savior, which truthfully,

:

01:00:52,433 --> 01:00:55,283

if that had happened and it worked

out, I would be very grateful for him.

:

01:00:55,283 --> 01:00:56,603

But that's definitely not what happened.

:

01:00:56,603 --> 01:01:00,113

He basically got whatever footage

he was going to get from us, and

:

01:01:00,113 --> 01:01:01,283

then that was kind of the end of it.

:

01:01:01,283 --> 01:01:01,343

So.

:

01:01:03,503 --> 01:01:07,253

DrG: So looking back at everything

that that happened, were you

:

01:01:07,253 --> 01:01:10,403

surprised when you found out about

the things that he was doing?

:

01:01:10,883 --> 01:01:15,563

Jenn Thomas: Um, I think I wasn't

as, as engulfed as some other people

:

01:01:15,563 --> 01:01:20,333

were, so I wasn't quite aware of some

of the, I I'm assuming those are now

:

01:01:20,903 --> 01:01:24,083

their convicted the money issues.

:

01:01:24,083 --> 01:01:25,793

I was not aware that those were happening.

:

01:01:26,303 --> 01:01:29,693

Um, I wasn't aware of, of

some of the things, but like.

:

01:01:30,908 --> 01:01:35,888

He just was, was saying things that

as I got a little bit into, I realized

:

01:01:35,888 --> 01:01:37,628

were not possible or were not true.

:

01:01:37,628 --> 01:01:41,318

Like there you can't rehabilitate

every single dog and like I feel

:

01:01:41,318 --> 01:01:44,798

like he set that expectation

speaking to my board that like,

:

01:01:45,623 --> 01:01:49,733

if we just tried a little harder, we

had more people who were like him,

:

01:01:50,033 --> 01:01:53,393

that we would be doing better than

we were doing, which wasn't the case.

:

01:01:53,393 --> 01:01:56,813

So I think, you know, I remember

one of my board members saying this

:

01:01:56,813 --> 01:01:58,583

was a dog that we'd had for a while.

:

01:01:58,583 --> 01:02:01,283

And, and he, you know, kind of

looked at him like, with like

:

01:02:01,313 --> 01:02:02,513

pleading like, are you good?

:

01:02:02,573 --> 01:02:03,623

Can you help this dog?

:

01:02:03,623 --> 01:02:05,723

And he basically was like, no,

I, there's nothing I can do.

:

01:02:05,723 --> 01:02:08,003

And I'm like, why are you like,

what are you, why are you here?

:

01:02:08,063 --> 01:02:09,533

Like, what is it that you want from us?

:

01:02:09,533 --> 01:02:10,403

We don't have any money.

:

01:02:10,673 --> 01:02:12,863

We already paid you to

come here and talk to us.

:

01:02:13,083 --> 01:02:15,573

To tell us that, like get

bingo and go to Rascal.

:

01:02:15,573 --> 01:02:18,153

Like those were the two main

takeaways that we took from him.

:

01:02:18,606 --> 01:02:21,456

DrG: I'm assuming overall

you're like happy that it did

:

01:02:21,456 --> 01:02:23,016

not really work out with him.

:

01:02:23,016 --> 01:02:27,696

So you guys did not get, you know,

suckered by a lot of the stuff that.

:

01:02:28,016 --> 01:02:29,126

That he did, right?

:

01:02:29,156 --> 01:02:29,216

I

:

01:02:29,216 --> 01:02:31,076

Jenn Thomas: mean, I am, I'm really glad.

:

01:02:31,076 --> 01:02:33,506

I feel, I feel stupid, honestly.

:

01:02:33,536 --> 01:02:34,526

Again, I was new.

:

01:02:34,526 --> 01:02:36,056

I'd never worked in animal welfare.

:

01:02:36,056 --> 01:02:37,556

I'd never worked in a nonprofit.

:

01:02:37,556 --> 01:02:40,886

I came from a banking and insurance

background, and I just happened

:

01:02:40,886 --> 01:02:43,976

to love animals and ended up

being good at what I am doing.

:

01:02:44,606 --> 01:02:45,056

Um.

:

01:02:45,941 --> 01:02:49,571

I just, I thought I even, I went to

the bingo, like the courses that you

:

01:02:49,571 --> 01:02:52,541

have to take, because I thought like,

this man knows what he's talking about.

:

01:02:52,541 --> 01:02:55,241

Like, look at all the stuff he's

doing and like you look back on it and

:

01:02:55,241 --> 01:02:57,041

you're like, what were we thinking?

:

01:02:57,041 --> 01:03:00,881

Like, it, it makes me feel really stupid

and it makes me feel really used because

:

01:03:00,881 --> 01:03:02,471

like I said, I feel like he used, I.

:

01:03:03,086 --> 01:03:09,116

At least the situation that we were in

as a jumping off for him to further his

:

01:03:09,206 --> 01:03:12,776

agenda of, of helping people but not

really helping, if that makes sense.

:

01:03:12,776 --> 01:03:14,786

So I'm glad we didn't get any further.

:

01:03:14,786 --> 01:03:18,566

I know there probably are

other shelters that did, but I.

:

01:03:18,566 --> 01:03:20,076

We just were, I'm like, you know,

there's not anything that he's

:

01:03:20,076 --> 01:03:24,156

suggesting we do aside, I wanna

say he wanted to come back and he

:

01:03:24,156 --> 01:03:25,956

wanted us to pay him something else.

:

01:03:25,956 --> 01:03:28,506

But I, it's been so long ago

that I can't remember, and I

:

01:03:28,506 --> 01:03:29,616

looked through a lot of my stuff.

:

01:03:29,616 --> 01:03:33,006

I tried to find some pictures that we

had taken, um, the day he was there.

:

01:03:33,006 --> 01:03:35,916

But like they, the, the people that

were there treated him like a celebrity.

:

01:03:35,916 --> 01:03:37,356

Like we thought it was a big deal.

:

01:03:37,356 --> 01:03:39,366

And now I look at it,

I'm like, we were dumb.

:

01:03:39,366 --> 01:03:42,966

Like, he just, he really just

fooled a lot of people, I think,

:

01:03:42,966 --> 01:03:43,986

and especially people who.

:

01:03:44,936 --> 01:03:49,736

In my situation, I was so desperate to

like make a, a difference because we were

:

01:03:49,736 --> 01:03:54,206

doing so poorly in, in many aspects and

you know, I have him and I think, wow,

:

01:03:54,206 --> 01:03:55,436

look at all the great things he is doing.

:

01:03:55,436 --> 01:03:58,916

He can save all the, all the dogs and

he has all these resources and he really

:

01:03:58,916 --> 01:04:01,346

didn't have any, he was just a fraud.

:

01:04:01,976 --> 01:04:01,977

Dr. G:

:

01:04:01,977 --> 01:04:02,306

Right.

:

01:04:02,966 --> 01:04:04,676

So what did you learn

about this experience?

:

01:04:05,346 --> 01:04:06,126

Jenn Thomas: I feel like.

:

01:04:06,591 --> 01:04:12,111

There are a lot of really great males in

the animal shelter and animal welfare.

:

01:04:12,171 --> 01:04:16,131

There are a few, the rest of them that

I have met have ended up being very much

:

01:04:16,131 --> 01:04:19,761

like him, which I won't name names for

anybody, but I feel like sometimes they're

:

01:04:19,761 --> 01:04:24,321

in it for the wrong reason and I'm just a

lot more cognizant of people who tell me

:

01:04:24,321 --> 01:04:27,861

like that they can fix everything because

they can't, you can't save every dog.

:

01:04:27,861 --> 01:04:31,671

And I think somebody in the rescue

community that's touting save them

:

01:04:31,671 --> 01:04:34,101

all at, you know, at that time

I thought, well, that's great.

:

01:04:34,101 --> 01:04:35,391

And I'm like, that's really unhealthy.

:

01:04:35,391 --> 01:04:37,551

It's unhealthy for the staff,

it's unhealthy for the dog.

:

01:04:37,551 --> 01:04:39,831

It's, it's unhealthy for the

community and it's not realistic.

:

01:04:39,831 --> 01:04:44,181

So, um, I just look at people a little

bit more carefully when we're choosing to

:

01:04:44,181 --> 01:04:49,371

work with them or look up to them, just

because I know more now and I don't want.

:

01:04:50,826 --> 01:04:55,566

I don't want anything that we do to

be impacted by somebody who truly,

:

01:04:55,566 --> 01:04:56,946

actually doesn't know what they're doing.

:

01:04:58,546 --> 01:04:58,726

DrG: yeah.

:

01:04:58,726 --> 01:05:01,636

I mean, that was the problem with social

media and everything that he was sharing.

:

01:05:01,899 --> 01:05:04,479

Jenn Thomas: Our community

treated him like a celebrity.

:

01:05:04,899 --> 01:05:08,679

Um, the women in the, like, the

animal, the dog, women, they were

:

01:05:08,679 --> 01:05:10,089

just like, oh my gosh, he's so great.

:

01:05:10,089 --> 01:05:14,619

I'm like, I mean, he's m at best,

but he's not, he's not really

:

01:05:14,619 --> 01:05:17,889

providing any anything to us

and he wants something from us.

:

01:05:17,889 --> 01:05:20,199

He wants to come down here and

film something for himself and

:

01:05:20,199 --> 01:05:21,369

we're gonna get nothing from it.

:

01:05:21,399 --> 01:05:22,629

He's gonna benefit from it.

:

01:05:23,139 --> 01:05:25,389

So it just, you know, I just.

:

01:05:26,259 --> 01:05:30,939

I at, at the end of the day, I feel stupid

for even looking up to him at any point.

:

01:05:30,939 --> 01:05:33,939

But you don't know what you

know and so you know it.

:

01:05:33,939 --> 01:05:34,209

So

:

01:05:34,939 --> 01:05:38,569

DrG: like there was no good

way of verifying that things

:

01:05:38,569 --> 01:05:40,038

were right or wrong, right?

:

01:05:40,038 --> 01:05:44,659

It was just all literally from him

saying, I did this, and then people,

:

01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:47,509

you know, telling him how great he was.

:

01:05:47,509 --> 01:05:50,569

So we're doing it, and then him just

sharing and sharing and sharing.

:

01:05:50,569 --> 01:05:52,609

But I don't know that

anybody really vetted.

:

01:05:53,194 --> 01:05:54,304

Stuff that he was saying.

:

01:05:54,309 --> 01:05:54,419

No, and

:

01:05:54,419 --> 01:05:57,634

Jenn Thomas: I, I feel like that that

happens a lot honestly in dealing.

:

01:05:57,724 --> 01:05:59,584

I've, like I said, I've been

doing this for 10 years.

:

01:05:59,584 --> 01:06:03,334

I've dealt with some amazing rescues and

some amazing shelters, and I've dealt

:

01:06:03,334 --> 01:06:07,024

with some shelters that are, you know,

have a little bit that they could learn

:

01:06:07,024 --> 01:06:09,124

and some rescues that are also not great.

:

01:06:09,124 --> 01:06:12,784

And so I don't think, I mean,

there should be some sort of

:

01:06:12,784 --> 01:06:15,014

a vetting process in place.

:

01:06:15,014 --> 01:06:16,339

Somehow, I don't know

what that looks like.

:

01:06:16,339 --> 01:06:18,229

That's beyond my scope of, of doing.

:

01:06:18,229 --> 01:06:22,849

However, you know, the, the length at

which Steffen was able to go, I think

:

01:06:22,849 --> 01:06:24,199

should not have been able to happen.

:

01:06:24,199 --> 01:06:28,909

And there are numerous people on my

Facebook feed who were like, no, this

:

01:06:28,909 --> 01:06:30,529

guy's, he's not what he says he is.

:

01:06:30,529 --> 01:06:33,229

And then they were, you know,

85 more people were like,

:

01:06:33,288 --> 01:06:34,579

oh my God, he's so great.

:

01:06:34,579 --> 01:06:37,699

When in reality he just, you know,

he wasn't, was he ever great?

:

01:06:37,699 --> 01:06:38,329

I don't know.

:

01:06:39,229 --> 01:06:40,129

I don't, I don't know.

:

01:06:40,159 --> 01:06:42,709

Like, was his goal the

whole time to just be on tv?

:

01:06:42,829 --> 01:06:43,369

Was that the.

:

01:06:43,954 --> 01:06:48,334

Or did he care at some point, which

still doesn't make what he did.

:

01:06:48,334 --> 01:06:48,663

Right?

:

01:06:48,663 --> 01:06:52,774

But you know, how do you get

into this if you have no desire

:

01:06:52,774 --> 01:06:54,064

to actually make do good?

:

01:06:55,654 --> 01:06:55,864

DrG: Yeah.

:

01:06:55,864 --> 01:07:01,474

I think that it's, we are all learning

that when somebody comes in and says,

:

01:07:01,564 --> 01:07:05,074

these are my qualifications, or this

is what I have to offer, or whatever,

:

01:07:05,104 --> 01:07:09,334

then perhaps we do need to take

that extra step to say, show me why.

:

01:07:09,814 --> 01:07:10,054

Right?

:

01:07:10,054 --> 01:07:11,584

Like, show me where you learned this.

:

01:07:11,584 --> 01:07:12,663

Show me where.

:

01:07:13,294 --> 01:07:17,494

You got this, this training or information

or education or whatever, because

:

01:07:17,494 --> 01:07:19,084

that was a, that was a big problem.

:

01:07:19,444 --> 01:07:25,504

He literally talked a big talk, but he

did not have anything to back it up.

:

01:07:26,264 --> 01:07:30,344

Jenn Thomas: There is a large

discrepancy between what the community

:

01:07:30,344 --> 01:07:34,004

wants us to do and what training

is available to people to have.

:

01:07:34,004 --> 01:07:35,864

I had zero training when I started here.

:

01:07:35,864 --> 01:07:38,594

I definitely don't consider

myself an expert by any means.

:

01:07:38,594 --> 01:07:41,234

However, I've been doing this for a

while and I've made a ton of mistakes

:

01:07:41,234 --> 01:07:45,494

and I've tried to align myself with

people that I do respect, you know,

:

01:07:45,524 --> 01:07:47,294

that are doing it for the right reasons.

:

01:07:47,294 --> 01:07:53,114

And we've, you know, kind of discovered

like there's not a set path from, from.

:

01:07:53,714 --> 01:07:57,974

Doing good and just not having the

resources to finding somebody that's

:

01:07:57,974 --> 01:08:03,584

trained and, and and knowledgeable to

help you in a way that that is useful.

:

01:08:03,884 --> 01:08:09,104

And I think that those things, if there

was more of a standardized way for us to

:

01:08:09,104 --> 01:08:13,244

say, okay, these are the qualifications

that you need to have, or you have to get

:

01:08:13,244 --> 01:08:16,904

in order to do what you're doing, I think

that that might make things a little bit

:

01:08:16,904 --> 01:08:20,474

more transparent because I'm sure that

there are other rescues out there that

:

01:08:21,104 --> 01:08:23,804

are not great too, that

people think are amazing.

:

01:08:23,804 --> 01:08:29,084

And you know, there's no way for us in the

sheltering world to say anything without

:

01:08:29,084 --> 01:08:32,834

being ostracized by people who think that

they're also great, if that makes sense.

:

01:08:32,834 --> 01:08:34,514

Like, you don't wanna be the odd man out.

:

01:08:34,514 --> 01:08:37,094

You don't wanna be the shelter that

other people don't like because you've

:

01:08:37,094 --> 01:08:39,493

gone against the green, because you

just don't feel right about something.

:

01:08:39,493 --> 01:08:45,044

And so I think if there was a way or a

course or something to say, you know.

:

01:08:45,524 --> 01:08:48,854

Jen went through this course for

leadership, or Jen went through this

:

01:08:48,854 --> 01:08:52,783

course for animal behavior, or Jen

went through this course, which, I

:

01:08:52,783 --> 01:08:55,634

mean, what do you, what do you have

to do to become a humane agent?

:

01:08:55,634 --> 01:08:58,844

You go through like a week long class,

I think, and that's pretty much it.

:

01:08:58,844 --> 01:09:01,274

And then what, who, who

monitors it after that?

:

01:09:01,634 --> 01:09:02,504

Who's in charge?

:

01:09:02,564 --> 01:09:03,374

It's nobody.

:

01:09:04,214 --> 01:09:04,544

So.

:

01:09:05,759 --> 01:09:10,859

DrG: I think he, he hurt rescues and

shelters and the lies that he made

:

01:09:10,889 --> 01:09:14,759

because he was trying to push this

agenda that every dog could be saved.

:

01:09:14,939 --> 01:09:18,658

And then he was saying that he was

rescuing these aggressive dogs and

:

01:09:18,658 --> 01:09:23,459

he was rehabilitating them because he

cared and he gave him time, which then

:

01:09:23,459 --> 01:09:27,599

makes every other shelter that does

not have all these success stories

:

01:09:27,779 --> 01:09:29,578

sound like they just wanna kill dogs.

:

01:09:29,879 --> 01:09:32,309

And in reality, he was

the one killing the dogs.

:

01:09:32,939 --> 01:09:36,269

Jenn Thomas: I felt like I, and, and

this still happens because there's

:

01:09:36,269 --> 01:09:38,969

still people out there who are

like, you can save every single dog.

:

01:09:38,969 --> 01:09:39,509

You've seen them.

:

01:09:39,509 --> 01:09:40,019

I'm sure.

:

01:09:40,649 --> 01:09:43,979

I just felt like if I tried

harder, I could do it.

:

01:09:44,158 --> 01:09:47,939

Like if he's doing it, like

if he can do it, I can do it.

:

01:09:47,939 --> 01:09:49,948

That's just my mentality

and life in general.

:

01:09:49,948 --> 01:09:52,169

I think there are very few

things that I can't accomplish

:

01:09:52,169 --> 01:09:53,669

if I try and I'm like, why?

:

01:09:53,969 --> 01:09:55,109

Why can he do this?

:

01:09:55,289 --> 01:09:59,504

And he's a singular person and I can't

do it, and I have the support of a

:

01:09:59,504 --> 01:10:03,764

community and a staff and, you know,

volunteers and fosters like, what am I do?

:

01:10:03,764 --> 01:10:08,594

Like, I took it as a failure on my part

because I felt like I should be able

:

01:10:08,594 --> 01:10:12,224

to do what I felt like we should be

saving more dogs than we were saving.

:

01:10:12,224 --> 01:10:14,384

And at that time, we were

saving a lot of dogs.

:

01:10:14,744 --> 01:10:19,034

Um, that in reality probably should

not have been saved either from a,

:

01:10:19,394 --> 01:10:22,964

a humane, ethical standpoint of us

just keeping them too long because.

:

01:10:23,534 --> 01:10:26,864

There was never that conversation

with him, of the person I looked

:

01:10:26,864 --> 01:10:29,294

up to that said, okay, well you've

had this dog for nine months.

:

01:10:29,534 --> 01:10:30,824

It doesn't like other dogs.

:

01:10:30,824 --> 01:10:32,564

Like, have you ever thought

about letting it go?

:

01:10:32,564 --> 01:10:34,004

Those conversations never came up.

:

01:10:34,004 --> 01:10:36,104

Those were, if you try

harder, you'll find someone I.

:

01:10:36,914 --> 01:10:38,984

So, I mean, it was a failure on our part.

:

01:10:39,434 --> 01:10:41,834

You know, my board members were

there and you know, they hear that

:

01:10:41,834 --> 01:10:44,714

and I'm like, well, now they're, you

know, they, they think I'm just not

:

01:10:44,714 --> 01:10:46,514

trying hard enough for the 40 dogs.

:

01:10:46,514 --> 01:10:51,494

At that time a year we were euthanizing

and it just, you know, it made everybody

:

01:10:51,494 --> 01:10:54,614

feel almost worse, I think, because

I'm like, why can't we do this?

:

01:10:54,614 --> 01:10:55,844

Like, where's our support?

:

01:10:55,844 --> 01:10:58,514

Like, he's doing these things,

like, why don't I have that?

:

01:10:58,514 --> 01:10:58,844

So.

:

01:11:00,074 --> 01:11:00,404

DrG: Yeah.

:

01:11:00,404 --> 01:11:05,384

And when he, when he took over executive

director at Tops, um, one of the

:

01:11:05,384 --> 01:11:08,984

first things that he did was euthanize

three dogs that had been there for a

:

01:11:08,984 --> 01:11:11,024

long time that were aggressive dogs.

:

01:11:11,474 --> 01:11:16,454

And it was kind of like one of the most

hypocritical things, you know, on his,

:

01:11:16,514 --> 01:11:20,804

on his part because he's telling people

you're just not trying hard enough.

:

01:11:21,164 --> 01:11:25,693

And then in his own shelter,

he did not even try.

:

01:11:26,617 --> 01:11:29,797

Jenn Thomas: I didn't, I didn't

have a huge experience with him.

:

01:11:29,797 --> 01:11:33,727

I felt like, because.

:

01:11:35,202 --> 01:11:39,672

I wasn't a single person, that

I wasn't his demographic and

:

01:11:39,672 --> 01:11:41,322

the do, does that make sense?

:

01:11:41,622 --> 01:11:45,642

Like the, the, the, the ladies in

the rescue community that were single

:

01:11:45,642 --> 01:11:47,802

were like, oh my gosh, she's so great.

:

01:11:47,802 --> 01:11:49,362

And I think he enjoyed that.

:

01:11:49,362 --> 01:11:49,422

I.

:

01:11:49,662 --> 01:11:53,772

Attention and I, I didn't give

him that type of attention just

:

01:11:53,772 --> 01:11:55,602

because I had my own agenda.

:

01:11:55,602 --> 01:11:57,492

I was trying to get better at what I do.

:

01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,520

DrG: When we talk about tops, it's

like, it's not just about his role

:

01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:04,220

as a, as a shitty executive director.

:

01:12:04,250 --> 01:12:07,220

It's about the animals that

were in there that he harmed.

:

01:12:07,220 --> 01:12:08,660

It's about the money that he stole.

:

01:12:08,660 --> 01:12:10,370

It's about the people that he lied to.

:

01:12:10,670 --> 01:12:16,010

It's about the, the money that he

deflected outside of there, and then,

:

01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:19,760

like, there's so much, there's so

much to everything that it is hard

:

01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,520

to, to keep everything just organized.

:

01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:25,550

There is no organization and that,

and that fits well with him because

:

01:12:25,550 --> 01:12:26,990

he was not an organized human being.

:

01:12:27,380 --> 01:12:27,590

Right.

:

01:12:27,590 --> 01:12:28,790

He was like scattered.

:

01:12:29,210 --> 01:12:29,665

So, yeah.

:

01:12:29,684 --> 01:12:29,905

So

:

01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:30,081

Det. Jim Conroy:

:

01:12:30,081 --> 01:12:35,960

it's, he thrived in, in chaos and I, I

think that was a strategy of his, 'cause

:

01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:40,100

he didn't like meetings, he didn't like

reports, he didn't like documentation.

:

01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:41,240

And

:

01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:41,241

Det. Jim Conroy:

:

01:12:41,241 --> 01:12:42,740

I just think he figured it out.

:

01:12:42,830 --> 01:12:48,500

If he just causes chaos that he,

he can get away with all of these

:

01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:49,970

things and that, that works.

:

01:12:51,125 --> 01:12:51,245

Randy Schmidt: I

:

01:12:51,245 --> 01:12:55,925

think in fairness to Chris Dewitt, he

was just way over his head against a

:

01:12:55,925 --> 01:12:58,565

very polished, very polished con man.

:

01:12:59,075 --> 01:13:05,015

Um, and you know what I've heard he is

done, and what I know that he is done

:

01:13:05,255 --> 01:13:10,445

and what I'm hearing might be done,

um, none of it really surprises me.

:

01:13:10,595 --> 01:13:17,975

It's certainly kind of tarnished me

ever wanting to help at a rescue again.

:

01:13:18,245 --> 01:13:22,355

And I know that's not right 'cause

again, they're for the dogs, but that

:

01:13:22,355 --> 01:13:26,735

was such a, such a negative experience

that just went on and on and on.

:

01:13:26,735 --> 01:13:30,275

you've seen it in little League

baseball, you've seen it in so many

:

01:13:30,275 --> 01:13:34,895

nonprofits where people just can't

keep their hands out of the till.

:

01:13:35,345 --> 01:13:39,245

The IRS, we had every dollar

pretty much accounted for.

:

01:13:39,725 --> 01:13:44,045

And, and it's just a shame that they

get people into these nonprofits

:

01:13:44,045 --> 01:13:46,985

and they just can't do what's right.

:

01:13:47,315 --> 01:13:48,245

It, it's a shame.

:

01:13:48,335 --> 01:13:49,535

And it, and it hurts.

:

01:13:49,985 --> 01:13:50,465

It does.

:

01:13:50,525 --> 01:13:51,425

It hurts everybody.

:

01:13:51,785 --> 01:13:52,684

It hurts everybody.

:

01:13:52,684 --> 01:13:55,625

It hurts donations It

hurts the whole thing.

:

01:13:55,625 --> 01:13:55,955

You know?

:

01:13:55,955 --> 01:13:56,525

It's a shame.

:

01:13:59,255 --> 01:14:04,025

Shelter in Bell Fountain that needed

about $170,000 just to stay open.

:

01:14:04,265 --> 01:14:08,460

Well, today the shelter is officially

closing, so what happens to the animals?

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.