The "Tip" on Community Cats and TNR
TNR, or trap-neuter-release, is the most effective and humane method of controlling the outdoor cat population. On this episode, we are joined by Dan Spehar of the Together Initiative for Ohio's Community Cats, and Mona McKinniss from Colony Cats to address facts and myths about community cat management.
If you are interested in community cat welfare and control, this episode is a great source of education about the ins and outs of TNR.
Transcript
Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.
Dr. G:This is your host, Dr.
Dr. G:G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan, and today we're
Dr. G:gonna be talking about cats and more specifically, community cats and tnr.
Dr. G:So for that, I brought two special guests.
Dr. G:We have Dan Spehar from the Together Initiative
Dr. G:for Ohio Community Cats.
Dr. G:Some of you may remember him.
Dr. G:He helped us out with some information about Ohio's deserts, um, when we
Dr. G:were talking about the problem faced with a lack of veterinarians in Ohio.
Dr. G:And our second guest is Mona McKinniss, the Director of Colony Cats.
Dr. G:So I'm gonna have them introduce themselves.
Dr. G:Uh, let's start with you Dan.
Dr. G:Uh, welcome back.
Dr. G:And how about you let everybody know who you are and what do you do?
Dan Spehar:Thanks for having me, Dr.
Dan Spehar:G.
Dan Spehar:I'm the, uh, co-founder of the Together Initiative for Ohio's Community Cats.
Dan Spehar:We're an organization that we're, we're not out there.
Dan Spehar:, as the Together Initiative trapping and doing that important work.
Dan Spehar:We're supporting those efforts of others through, , Education and
Dan Spehar:through promoting collaboration.
Dan Spehar:, so we hold events and we publish materials, such as our guide to,
Dan Spehar:community care resources in the state that we put out a couple of months ago.
Dan Spehar:so that's, uh, the Together initiative.
Dan Spehar:And then I've had the, pleasure of doing research on community cat management
Dan Spehar:for the last eight years or so.
Dan Spehar:Uh, so I think we're gonna talk about that a little bit
Dr. G:later.
Dr. G:Our second guest is Mona McKinnis.
Dr. G:And Mona, I will start by saying that I have known for a very long time
Dr. G:back, uh, 2001 ish, give or take.
Dr. G:Not that we're keeping numbers, but I've known her for a really long time.
Dr. G:So, hey, Mona, how about you tell us who you are, where you came from, how
Dr. G:you got involved, and where you're at.
Mona Mckinniss:Thank you, Dr.
Mona Mckinniss:G.
Mona Mckinniss:And I'm, I'm so , thrilled to be here.
Mona Mckinniss:I appreciate, the exposure on this, this problem and this issue.
Mona Mckinniss:, but, , I, uh, moved back to Ohio and, um, realized that rescue was not necessarily
Mona Mckinniss:the, , important thing we needed to do.
Mona Mckinniss:The spay neuter, this was back in, , about 2001 and, um, started to do some TNR.
Mona Mckinniss:There wasn't really any of that going on.
Mona Mckinniss:And, you were one of the few vets that actually knew what a feral cat was.
Mona Mckinniss:A lot of vets would say, sure, we do ferals.
Mona Mckinniss:Are they friendly?
Mona Mckinniss:And, um, that just didn't work back then.
Mona Mckinniss:It still doesn't work.
Mona Mckinniss:But, um, from there we just sort of, uh, the organization sort of grew
Mona Mckinniss:into primarily a T N R organization.
Mona Mckinniss:We still do a lot of that, but now we also have a cat adoption center in Dublin.
Mona Mckinniss:And, , we, uh, Our primary focus is still the T n r, but , there's
Mona Mckinniss:just a lot of other problems that are out there now that, , make
Dr. G:everything harder.
Dr. G:Yeah.
Dr. G:So you brought up an important point, and if that's education
Dr. G:as far as what is a feral cat.
Dr. G:So what, what is a feral cat?
Dr. G:We see the, the word thrown around a lot on social media and people get really
Dr. G:angry and there's a lot of confusion.
Dr. G:So what, what actually is a feral cat?
Dr. G:You wanna start?
Mona Mckinniss:Go for it.
Mona Mckinniss:Well, the, the original feral cat was the cat that was, uh, living outside.
Mona Mckinniss:Didn't want anybody to touch it, didn't want social contact, um,
Mona Mckinniss:wanted little interaction with humans, just put down the food and leave.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, I think it's grown now to the point where they've, um, Changed it
Mona Mckinniss:to call them community cats so that it includes all of the cats outside.
Mona Mckinniss:That includes the feral cats that still don't wanna be socialized or touched.
Mona Mckinniss:But the community cats now include the friendlies and the abandoned cats
Mona Mckinniss:that are perfectly happy outside, as long as they're in a safe place
Mona Mckinniss:and, um, we just need to provide them with shelter, food, and spay
Mona Mckinniss:neuter so that they live their lives.
Mona Mckinniss:But, It helps cut down the population.
Dr. G:Right.
Dr. G:And that's basically why your, your group Dan is called Together
Dr. G:Initiative for Community Cats.
Dr. G:Right?
Dr. G:Is that, can you tell us a little bit about that?
Dr. G:Right,
Dan Spehar:right, right.
Dan Spehar:I, I think Mona hit it right on the head.
Dan Spehar:Um, community Cats is kind of an umbrella term to include
Dan Spehar:all the cats that live outside.
Dan Spehar:Um, oftentimes they are stray cats or, , lost cats.
Dan Spehar:Uh, sometimes they are what.
Dan Spehar:Some people don't like the word to ever be used, but feral cats.
Dan Spehar:So unsocialized cats.
Dan Spehar:Um, so they can be social or unsocialized cats.
Dan Spehar:, but TNR is, is the right, , management, , tool for any of those cats.
Dan Spehar:So spay and neuter is gonna be the focus either way.
Dr. G:Yeah, bring, trying to bring.
Dr. G:Outdoor cats into shelters has two problems from how I see it.
Dr. G:Right?
Dr. G:It has the problem of the cat's not gonna thrive, and then you are
Dr. G:also going to increase the amount of animals that are in a shelter.
Dr. G:So it's gonna make it more burdensome for the shelter and more difficult
Dr. G:for the cats that are already there.
Dr. G:So do you have some statistics, Dan, on how TNR helps the
Dr. G:community, helps shelters?
Dan Spehar:I sure do.
Dan Spehar:, a couple of the studies or.
Dan Spehar:Three actually, that we did, uh, several years ago now.
Dan Spehar:But the numbers, uh, are still very relevant.
Dan Spehar:Um, in addition to tnr, which is of course trap new to return, for anybody
Dan Spehar:out there who might not be familiar, um, normally that's a community-based
Dan Spehar:program where, uh, folks are gonna trap the cast that are outside.
Dan Spehar:Again, the, the ferals or the stray cats that are outside have them spayed
Dan Spehar:or neutered, vaccinated for rabies in many cases, ear tipped and then
Dan Spehar:returned to the location where they were trapped, uh, to be cared for
Dan Spehar:by a caretaker on an ongoing basis.
Dan Spehar:Um, a complimentary program to that, that, uh, originated.
Dan Spehar:Several years ago is called Return to Field, or maybe Shelter, new to Return.
Dan Spehar:It is known by as well, that's a shelter based TNR program, where as these same
Dan Spehar:cats that are brought to the shelter, rather than being admitted along with
Dan Spehar:the owner surrendered cats, they're going through the same process of being spayed
Dan Spehar:or neutered, vaccinated, and then returned to the place where they were trapped.
Dan Spehar:Um, again, this alleviates, uh, issues of intake and euthanasia.
Dan Spehar:As many as unsocialized cats, they had no chance of being adopted
Dan Spehar:out, and they would be euthanized.
Dan Spehar:So the study that we did, uh, looked at six, what they called, uh, CCPs or
Dan Spehar:community cat programs in six communities.
Dan Spehar:Um, and those were done over three years.
Dan Spehar:And they combined TNR community-based TNR, with shelter based return
Dan Spehar:to field and the six communities.
Dan Spehar:And they saw on average a 32% reduction in shelter intake in those
Dan Spehar:six communities over a three year period and an 83% decline in shelter.
Dan Spehar:Shelter euthanasia for cats.
Dan Spehar:Um, we did another study in Louisville, Kentucky where they had a similar program
Dan Spehar:going on, uh, and over eight years they saw 43% decline in shelter intake for
Dan Spehar:cats and a 94% reduction in euthanasia.
Dan Spehar:So when combined the return to field and the TNR, uh, seemed to be an
Dan Spehar:effective way of reducing both shelter intake and euthanasia of, of cats.
Dr. G:Yeah, so I mean, definitely.
Dr. G:TNR is, is efficient, it's cost effective, and then it's humane because
Dr. G:these animals are not being euthanized.
Dr. G:Mona, what's the, what's the average stay for a cat in rescue in your experience,
Dr. G:and then what's the longest that you've had to hold a cat before it gets adopted?
Mona Mckinniss:Well, a lot of times it goes back to the, the ones that come
Mona Mckinniss:in that are not well socialized, that may have been pets in the past, but you
Mona Mckinniss:know, they become wild pretty quickly.
Mona Mckinniss:They're survivors, so they learn on the street pretty quickly how to survive.
Mona Mckinniss:And when you try to take them in, then you know, sometimes they adjust quickly.
Mona Mckinniss:They go back to being social, and other times it takes longer.
Mona Mckinniss:I would say.
Mona Mckinniss:Our average from the time they come in the door.
Mona Mckinniss:For the ones that are, um, the friendly ones, the ones that
Mona Mckinniss:have, are still very social.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, I would say it's probably, six to eight weeks from the time they
Mona Mckinniss:come in the door, get their vet care and then go up for adoption.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, but then we do have those cats that hide in the closet.
Mona Mckinniss:They only come out after we close.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, you know, there's a push for folks to look for those shy cats when you go
Mona Mckinniss:into adopt a Cat and give them a chance, because quite often once they get into
Mona Mckinniss:a home, they, they do much better.
Mona Mckinniss:But it still is, um, some of the, I've.
Mona Mckinniss:I, I mean, honestly, we have a couple of cats that are truly feral.
Mona Mckinniss:We can hardly ever touch them.
Mona Mckinniss:They come out at night, we can see 'em on the cameras, and, you know,
Mona Mckinniss:at the time we probably should have put 'em back outside, but it was
Mona Mckinniss:like, well, let's give 'em a chance.
Mona Mckinniss:Give 'em a chance, and you know, they're gonna live and die there
Mona Mckinniss:Now, um, they're, they're not
Dr. G:adoptable.
Dr. G:. And so many people don't realize that that's not a good
Dr. G:life, at least at the shelter.
Dr. G:They have space to kind of move around and, and get around.
Dr. G:But I know that there are people that try to socialize these cats, and they're
Dr. G:basically just living in a small cage for a really long period of time.
Dr. G:And that's just detrimental, right?
Dr. G:Like it's, it's no way to live.
Dr. G:Whereas the concern is being outside.
Dr. G:The, you know, okay, they may get hit by a car, they may be attacked by
Dr. G:predators or things may happen, but from what I, from what I know, the average
Dr. G:lifespan of an outdoor cat tends to be about seven years, give or take.
Dr. G:So that tends to be seven good years, happy years outside, years, uh, they're
Dr. G:enjoying themselves as opposed to , being inside in a small cage . , let's go
Dr. G:through kind of the, the process as far as, you know, you find cats outside,
Dr. G:what do you do as far as bringing them in, evaluating what's gonna be
Dr. G:the best outcome for them, um, and then deciding what to do with them.
Dr. G:Well,
Dr. G:, Mona Mckinniss: usually when they, when
Dr. G:I've been feeding this stray.
Dr. G:This is a really nice cat.
Dr. G:A lot of times, of course, they're only nice with the person that's feeding them.
Dr. G:So we'll take them in.
Dr. G:We give them at least a few days to decompress.
Dr. G:If they are very friendly, you, you usually know pretty quickly if they're
Dr. G:having a hard time adjusting, if they're not letting you touch them,
Dr. G:um, if they're , , hiding in the back of their cage and just not wanting
Dr. G:any kind of, uh, contact at all.
Dr. G:Then we usually end up getting them fixed and calling the folks and saying,
Dr. G:Hey, this is gonna be the best for this cat to go back to where it came from.
Dr. G:If they just can't take it back, it's not a good setting, you know, it's dangerous.
Dr. G:Um, there's no feeder, that kind of thing.
Dr. G:Then we do have a pretty decent barn program and we try
Dr. G:to relocate them to a barn.
Dr. G:Um, You know, the, the friendly ones of course get their vet care and we try to
Dr. G:move them quickly to the adoption floor so that they can move on out to a home.
Dr. G:The longer they sit being evaluated or trying to determine if they're okay,
Dr. G:the more likely they're gonna get sick, they're stressed, and they're gonna
Dr. G:get sick, and then you're trying to medicate and not very social cat, so
Dr. G:everything just goes, goes to crap.
Dan Spehar:Yeah.
Dan Spehar:You know, a, a concern oftentimes for folks is that, you know, well,
Dan Spehar:you know, if we put these cats back outside, um, you know, it's, it's
Dan Spehar:not a good environment for them and.
Dan Spehar:They don't belong outside.
Dan Spehar:They belong inside.
Dan Spehar:And, and there's no doubt everything being equal, maybe, maybe it would
Dan Spehar:be best if every cat lived indoors in a, you know, environment where they
Dan Spehar:had enrichment and, and a good life.
Dan Spehar:But most of these cats that come into these TNR programs, um,
Dan Spehar:are doing pretty well outside.
Dan Spehar:Uh, the numbers tell us, at least on these, uh, Seven
Dan Spehar:programs that we looked at.
Dan Spehar:Less than 1% of the cats that were trapped and brought in for sterilization
Dan Spehar:surgery had to be euthanized or died in care because of poor health.
Dan Spehar:Um, so that's less than 1%.
Dan Spehar:The same thing occurred in Alachua County, Florida.
Dan Spehar:Dr.
Dan Spehar:Julie Levy.
Dan Spehar:Um, she did a study and it was the same situation, uh, down there.
Dan Spehar:Um, and then the six CCPs that we looked at, that was over 72,000 cats.
Dan Spehar:So this isn't like a small sample size.
Dan Spehar:Um, and I do have some limited data locally um, they've kept track of
Dan Spehar:the cats that they've, uh, brought in for sterilization, community, cat
Dan Spehar:companions up there in Lake County.
Dan Spehar:And over an eight year period I was just doing some.
Dan Spehar:Calculations.
Dan Spehar:1.6% of the cats that they've trapped for sterilization either
Dan Spehar:had to be euthanized or, or died.
Dan Spehar:Um, so.
Dan Spehar:That's a, a pretty small percentage.
Dan Spehar:So it kind of counters the argument that these cats are, you know,
Dan Spehar:doing really, really poorly outside.
Dan Spehar:Um, if they, if they're getting food, um, and then especially after they're
Dan Spehar:spayed or neutered and vaccinated and returned to a colony where they're
Dan Spehar:being, uh, monitored and cared for, um, you know, the situation
Dan Spehar:could be much, much worse for them.
, Dr. G:and we know that cats in small environments, they're going
, Dr. G:to be more likely to get sick.
, Dr. G:And then the stress of being together.
, Dr. G:And Dan, you shared about the, just the des veterinary deserts and the
, Dr. G:difficulty in finding veterinary care.
, Dr. G:Do you wanna give us a little bit of a recap on that?
, Dr. G:On the, the struggles that we are facing here in Ohio with
, Dr. G:the veterinary shortage.
Dan Spehar:Right, right.
Dan Spehar:. We found that there were two major.
Dan Spehar:Clusters of counties in Ohio where there were resource deserts.
Dan Spehar:It was the southeastern portion of the state, which sometimes
Dan Spehar:is called Ohio Appalachia.
Dan Spehar:And then in the west central part of the state, there was
Dan Spehar:another pocket of 11 counties.
Dan Spehar:I think it was 12 counties in southeastern Ohio and 11 counties in uh, West
Dan Spehar:Central Ohio where there were, uh, veterinary, uh, resource spay neuter
Dan Spehar:resource deserts for community cats.
Dan Spehar:Um, so yeah, that, that, that is an issue in, in quite a few counties in the state.
Dan Spehar:Uh,
Dr. G:Sometimes some of the TNR cats that come in are in better shape than some of
Dr. G:the indoor cats in some living situations.
Dr. G:Right.
Dr. G:Especially we get into the concern with hoarders, people that have way
Dr. G:too many cats, more cats than they can safely care for or properly care for.
Dr. G:And some of these people get into hoarding because they don't want the cats to
Dr. G:be outside or they don't want the cats to go to a shelter or be euthanized.
Dr. G:So they do it out of care for the cat, but they don't understand that
Dr. G:that cat is probably better off being outside, having all the fresh air
Dr. G:and having the room and having the ability to move around and exercise
Dr. G:as opposed to , being stuck inside.
Dr. G:Um, We, there are pockets that we go to.
Dr. G:For instance, uh, we travel quite a bit to Northeast Ohio and especially like
Dr. G:Ashtabula County, they have a really great TNR program that they started, uh,
Dr. G:about a year and a half, two years ago.
Dr. G:And they're getting a lot of cats.
Dr. G:They bring 'em to us, to our, uh, Trumbull County Clinics.
Dr. G:And depending on where they're getting these cats, we see some
Dr. G:cats that are in great shape.
Dr. G:There are other cats that they bring us that are in horrible shape, right?
Dr. G:Like covered in fleas, tons of parasites, really thin.
Dr. G:Um, but one other benefit of TNR is the fact that those cats are coming to us,
Dr. G:we're sterilizing them because even though they're sick, they can still reproduce.
Dr. G:But then we're also treating them and making the community healthy.
Dr. G:So I think that's something, Mona, that you, that you see right, with some of
Dr. G:the cats that we take care of for you.
Mona Mckinniss:Oh yeah.
Mona Mckinniss:And, and we, we vaccinate them, um, for the viral vaccine.
Mona Mckinniss:The rabies, we flea treat everybody if ear mites, um, parasites.
Mona Mckinniss:So yes, we try to send them back out there with as much help
Mona Mckinniss:as we can possibly give them.
Mona Mckinniss:And when you talk to the people, the feeders later, they, they're
Mona Mckinniss:amazed at how great they look and, and it, it truly does improve the
Mona Mckinniss:quality of their life immensely.
Dr. G:Yeah, I mean, even just recently there were, there was a cat that
Dr. G:you brought in that had like a big wound on the, on the neck, and you,
Dr. G:you're really lucky too though, that you have really great volunteers and
Dr. G:trappers that they take them home.
Dr. G:They take care of these cats, these tnr, that they're not just trapping
Dr. G:them and just letting them go that, you know, what are they doing afterwards?
Dr. G:Yeah,
Mona Mckinniss:I mean, that, that's something, you know, the wounds
Mona Mckinniss:that we see, some of the, uh, the injuries and, and the skin infections
Mona Mckinniss:and that, I mean, we really do try to get them the antibiotics.
Mona Mckinniss:We, um, have a couple of, they're, we, you'd probably call them crazy cat
Mona Mckinniss:people, but they really go the extra mile to, to take care of these wounds
Mona Mckinniss:before we release them, um, to get the dentals done before we release them.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, so there's.
Mona Mckinniss:There's just a, a lot of extra stuff we do and, and it just is very upsetting
Mona Mckinniss:to me sometimes to go to some of these, um, vet clinics that do the high volume.
Mona Mckinniss:And there'll be people there that they're bringing in the cats to get 'em fixed, but
Mona Mckinniss:they're not gonna do any flea treatment.
Mona Mckinniss:They're not gonna do anything extra.
Mona Mckinniss:They can't afford to.
Mona Mckinniss:And I appreciate that they're, at least they're getting them fixed.
Mona Mckinniss:But I just think to myself, these poor cats, this is the one opportunity
Mona Mckinniss:they have to get things really taken care of, and they'll probably
Mona Mckinniss:never be touched again by a human.
Mona Mckinniss:And so, If we can just do as much as we possibly can to improve their lives
Mona Mckinniss:while we have them on that table.
Mona Mckinniss:It just, it just means so much.
Mona Mckinniss:I don't know.
Mona Mckinniss:It, that's just some, always been something that has been important to me.
Dr. G:Yeah.
Dr. G:I mean, we shared on Rascal Extreme not too long ago, the
Dr. G:one cat with a tail, right?
Dr. G:The Oh God, yes.
Dr. G:It was, uh, yeah, there was a, there was a cat that.
Dr. G:Had the skin completely tore off the, the tail and it was pretty disastrous.
Dr. G:So that cat had to be really uncomfortable and really, uh, having difficulties going
Dr. G:to the bathroom and just bringing it in, getting him fixed, and then removing
Dr. G:the part of the tail that was abnormal.
Dr. G:And now he's pretty much like a normal cat, right?
Dr. G:Wouldn't you say?
Mona Mckinniss:Yeah.
Mona Mckinniss:Yeah.
Mona Mckinniss:Yep.
Mona Mckinniss:And he's doing fine.
Mona Mckinniss:I mean, he's, he's, he's back out now and, and he's doing fine.
Mona Mckinniss:So that, the unfortunate part though, when you talk about the, the void in the vet
Mona Mckinniss:care, you are one in a million because most vets would not have the time or the
Mona Mckinniss:ability to really do what you do and.
Mona Mckinniss:We just see so many bad things on some of these cats that sometimes
Mona Mckinniss:euthanasia is a better answer, but, you know, we're very fortunate that we
Mona Mckinniss:have you, but we, we need more of you.
Dr. G:From a shelter standpoint, you know, some of veterinarians are
Dr. G:afraid to do things because they're afraid to be wrong, so they're,
Dr. G:they're afraid to do something and make things worse, or they're afraid to.
Dr. G:You know, kind of get in trouble for doing something that
Dr. G:may not have a good outcome.
Dr. G:And I try to explain to people that better, to, , I hate the word
Dr. G:try, but better to try than not.
Dr. G:Right, right.
Dr. G:Uh, because you can, you kind of have to do something about it.
Dr. G:What would you tell the veterinarians out there that may
Dr. G:be listening from the shelter side
Dr. G:about what your expectations are of what they can and cannot do for these cats?
Dr. G:Well, I,
Mona Mckinniss:I just wish some of them would, um, just go a little bit further
Mona Mckinniss:on some of these, some of these issues.
Mona Mckinniss:I mean, if you know the basic spay neuter, treat 'em for
Mona Mckinniss:fleas, give them some vaccines.
Mona Mckinniss:If they're healthy and they don't need anything else, then that's, that's you,
Mona Mckinniss:you've done everything you need to do.
Mona Mckinniss:But some of them, especially with some of the dental stuff we see some of
Mona Mckinniss:these cats' mouths are so awful, and we have a lot of cats out there that
Mona Mckinniss:have been TNR'd several years ago, now they're older and their mouths are awful.
Mona Mckinniss:And you can see by the way, they come to the feeding stations that
Mona Mckinniss:they, they need that dental work.
Mona Mckinniss:And while it's expensive.
Mona Mckinniss:I, I don't know that the vet community could contribute a little bit more,
Mona Mckinniss:um, for dentals and, and that kind of stuff for some of these cats.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, but it would certainly improve the quality of their life.
Mona Mckinniss:And, and sometimes you do have to make the decision to, to put 'em
Mona Mckinniss:down before you send 'em back out with some of these horrible things.
Mona Mckinniss:Uh, but it, it just seems that maybe a little bit more
Mona Mckinniss:could be done here and there.
Dan Spehar:Yeah, I would agree.
Dan Spehar:I mean, having the basics done.
Dan Spehar:Uh, FVRCP, uh, flea treatments, um, you know, any minor wounds taken care
Dan Spehar:of at, at least, hopefully that's, that's part of the basic package.
Dan Spehar:Um, but for folks out there that are hesitant, I mean, just I think you
Dan Spehar:would agree, just the spay neuter is gonna eliminate a lot of these.
Dan Spehar:A lot of the stress and the females of having litter after litter, the
Dan Spehar:males fighting and getting the wounds and the abscesses and the roaming,
Dan Spehar:and then getting hit by cars running across the street, chasing a female
Dan Spehar:to mate or fighting with another male.
Dan Spehar:Just the spay or neuter itself is gonna go a long way towards
Dan Spehar:promoting the health of the cats.
Dr. G:I think it, it kind of gets into are we doing just population
Dr. G:control or are you doing, are we doing individual welfare?
Dr. G:Right?
Dr. G:Mm-hmm.
Dr. G:So the spay neuter is population control.
Dr. G:And then one of the things that at our facility, at our practice we do
Dr. G:is we are doing group herd health, but then we're also caring for that
Dr. G:individual like that individual's needs.
Dr. G:So, like what I was saying, you know, if there's a tooth that is
Dr. G:abscess or whatever, let's pull that out and let's make 'em feel better.
Dr. G:If there's.
Dr. G:Any kind of other problems than, you know, to do it.
Dr. G:And, and realistically, not to say that these animals are expendable, but this
Dr. G:is a great opportunity to learn how to deal with some of these problems.
Dr. G:So as a veterinarian to say, I'm not comfortable doing this
Dr. G:because I don't know how to do it.
Dr. G:This is the time to, to, you know, figure it out, to work it out, because, you know,
Dr. G:and again, I don't want people to think that I don't care about the, the cat, like
Dr. G:it's okay for the feral cat to get used, but it is a, it is an ownerless patient
Dr. G:who only has you to take care of it.
Dr. G:So might as well give it, give it the chance.
Dr. G:Another hot topic with feral and community cat management is testing
Dr. G:for leukemia and FIV and then what to do with positive results.
Dr. G:So, Dan, do you have any, any information or any opinions about
Dan Spehar:that?
Dan Spehar:Um, you know, I don't have any, any data on that with me right here,
Dan Spehar:but, I'm of the opinion that no, I, I would not test for that unless there's
Dan Spehar:some symptoms, you know, if there's symptomatic, uh, reason to do that, um,
Dan Spehar:you're better off spending the money on the other care that we're talking
Dan Spehar:about or spay a neutering more cats.
Dan Spehar:Um, in my opinion, I'd, I'd be curious what Mona thinks.
Mona Mckinniss:No, I totally agree with that.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, the cats that are going back outside, you know, if, if you have the philosophy
Mona Mckinniss:of testing all of them, then what are you gonna do when you come up with positives?
Mona Mckinniss:Is that gonna change how you take care of them?
Mona Mckinniss:Or are you gonna put 'em back out knowing that they have this?
Mona Mckinniss:And you know, if you get a couple of cats in a colony that.
Mona Mckinniss:Do test positive, are you gonna assume the whole colony is positive
Mona Mckinniss:or there's there's no reason to even have that information?
Mona Mckinniss:Un unless they're sick.
Mona Mckinniss:I mean, if there's a quality of life issue then and you need to make a decision, then
Mona Mckinniss:you know, that, that could help with that.
Mona Mckinniss:But no, it's, it's a waste of money to, uh, to test them all.
Dr. G:Yeah.
Dr. G:Yeah.
Dr. G:With, uh, resources especially, you know, we, we are a lower cost facility,
Dr. G:but there are places that will charge 50, 60, $70 for leukemia FIV test.
Dr. G:So that's a spay, right?
Dr. G:That's a neuter, yeah.
Dr. G:So you're literally diluting the amount.
Dr. G:And I think that there, I, I wonder if there's a study out there and
Dr. G:if not it would be interesting if somebody would do like there, if
Dr. G:there's a correlation with the average lifespan of a cat with leukemia
Dr. G:or F I V being around seven years.
Dr. G:And the average lifespan of an outdoor cat being around seven years.
Dr. G:Like, is that, does that have something to do with it?
Dr. G:Is that one of the limiting factors to their lifespan?
Dr. G:And you know, if, if, again, it would be interesting to know if
Dr. G:that has something to do with it or if it's just coincidental.
Dr. G:For those out there listening that don't know what Leukemia
Dr. G:and FIV are, they're both.
Dr. G:diseases that affect the immune system, right?
Dr. G:So the leukemia disease is transmitted by saliva primarily.
Dr. G:So cats that are sharing water bowls, food bowls that they groom each other, they're
Dr. G:gonna be the more likely to to get it.
Dr. G:And then FIV is transmitted by blood, so primarily bites.
Dr. G:So that's where we see more tom cats having FIV, because
Dr. G:they tend to get into fights.
Dr. G:So that right there you neutered the male cat, they get into less
Dr. G:fights, then we should have a decrease in the, in the amount of FIV.
Dr. G:as to the things that you would do like, for just the general tnr
Dr. G:cat, one of the things that we also recommend is tipping ear tipping, and
Dr. G:that's just removing about a quarter inch of the tip of the left ear.
Dr. G:And there are so many people that are against it because they feel that
Dr. G:it's cruel to remove the ear tip.
Dr. G:And that is a huge pet peeve because you end up with the same
Dr. G:cat being brought into the clinic over and over and over and over.
Dr. G:So what are your thoughts on ear tipping in general?
Dan Spehar:You know, when I started in this about 20 years ago, I
Dan Spehar:took my, the cats that I trapped to my own veterinarian, and I was
Dan Spehar:lucky that she would be willing to do it, but she wouldn't ear tip.
Dan Spehar:So when I brought the cats back, they weren't ear tipped and I always worried
Dan Spehar:that, you know, if, if somebody else came along were they gonna trap the cats
Dan Spehar:again, either to have them sterilized again and they'd have to go through,
Dan Spehar:you know, at least up to the point where they were going to be sterilized and
Dan Spehar:they'd go through all that trauma again for no reason or trap them and take them
Dan Spehar:somewhere to be euthanized as that was still happening quite a bit 20 years ago.
Dan Spehar:So, no, I'm definitely for the ear tip.
Dan Spehar:I mean it there, there's a reason that it's the universal symbol
Dan Spehar:because you need to be able to identify these cats from a distance.
Dan Spehar:You're gonna save them quite a bit of trauma by being able to do that.
Dan Spehar:And somebody knows that there's a caretaker there already who's at
Dan Spehar:least started, if not trapped all these cats and had them sterilized.
Mona Mckinniss:And, , back in the, when I first started all this and the ear
Mona Mckinniss:tipping of course was being done on the ferals, and I always thought, wouldn't
Mona Mckinniss:it be nice if we get to the point where we can spay, neuter everything and,
Mona Mckinniss:and there'll be a shortage of cats and there'll be a tip eared cat in every home?
Mona Mckinniss:Because those were the only ones that were available.
Dr. G:I think that it just gets, again, like some people think that it hurts,
Dr. G:and there are so many people that think that, oh, I don't wanna, I don't want
Dr. G:my indoor cat to have a tipped ear.
Dr. G:Almost like that means that it's a bad cat, right?
Dr. G:Like a cat with a tipped ear.
Dr. G:It's just a cat with a tipped ear.
Dr. G:It doesn't mean that it's bad.
Dr. G:And I think that that part of that problem is that people
Dr. G:think of ear tips with ferals.
Dr. G:They don't think about an ear tip being done in a cat that is, uh, again, a
Dr. G:community cat, a cat that may come to you when it's time to feed, that
Dr. G:if you're sitting outside in your patio, it comes and sits in your lap.
Dr. G:Um, one of the things that I hear way too often is I don't want it ear
Dr. G:tip because I know which cat that is, and then the same cat will come back.
Dr. G:We've gotten a couple of times that somebody will say, oh yeah, you
Dr. G:guys, you guys spayed my cat last year and it just had kittens again.
Dr. G:It's like, no, it's not the same cat.
Dr. G:No, no, no.
Dr. G:I know it's the same cat because I know that cat.
Dr. G:No, it's like you, you would be surprised how many cats you can have.
Dr. G:We have a, we had another person that brought us a cat, um, that she said,
Dr. G:yeah, I've had this cat all its life.
Dr. G:And, you know, it needs to be, it needs to be spayed.
Dr. G:And we shaved it and it had a tattoo, and then we scanned it and it had a
Dr. G:microchip and we called in the microchip.
Dr. G:And that's not her cat.
Dr. G:That is somebody else's cat.
Dr. G:Right?
Dr. G:And she had this cat for two years thinking that this is her cat.
Dr. G:So, ear tipping, ear tipping, ear tipping, ear tipping, please.
Dr. G:Um, another, another concern is going to be, Trapping cats that may be pregnant.
Dr. G:And then a lot of people get really upset about that.
Dr. G:And I know it's like a really sensitive subject, but , well,
Dr. G:do you wanna talk about Mona, about tnr cats that are pregnant?
Mona Mckinniss:There are already too many kittens that are out there
Mona Mckinniss:that, that need a rescue or a foster or to be in a home and to bring more
Mona Mckinniss:in when you're able to prevent it is, is you just have to spay them.
Mona Mckinniss:And I've seen too many mothers, feral mothers with their kittens, they'll fight
Mona Mckinniss:to the death to protect those kittens, and it's just not a good life for them.
Mona Mckinniss:They're much happier being spayed and not having to go through more litters
Mona Mckinniss:and, and, uh, delivery and, and all that other nursing and trying to keep
Mona Mckinniss:'em alive, trying to take care of them.
Mona Mckinniss:It has to be just awful for these mothers.
Dr. G:Yeah.
Dr. G:Like how often do you find litters of kittens that have either
Dr. G:injured eyes or that have problems.
Dr. G:And then, right.
Dr. G:I remember a litter that you brought a few years ago that it was a litter of
Dr. G:black kittens and all the kittens had damaged eyes, and we had to take the
Dr. G:eyes out of everybody except for one.
Dr. G:Right?
Dr. G:Uh, one eye, not one kitten, one eye out of eight eyes.
Dr. G:Um, so yeah, what would you have any thoughts on that subject,
Dan Spehar:Dan?
Dan Spehar:No, I agree.
Dan Spehar:I mean, um, you know, I'm sure there is exceptions to every rule, but I would by
Dan Spehar:and large, um, the, the way to go is to, is to spay, to spay the cat, plus you have
Dan Spehar:to consider the mortality rate of kittens that live outside is, can be up to 75%.
Dan Spehar:So, you know, unless you're gonna get those kittens into foster care
Dan Spehar:or have them spayed and attended to immediately, as soon as they're able
Dan Spehar:to be, and if they make it that long, um, you know, you're, you're taking
Dan Spehar:a chance with their lives anyway.
Mona Mckinniss:We, we get people that'll call and say, well, I don't
Mona Mckinniss:want you to spay this pregnant cat.
Mona Mckinniss:She's feral.
Mona Mckinniss:I can't touch her, but I'll trap her after the kittens are born.
Mona Mckinniss:It's like that's, that's gonna be the worst thing in the world for that mother
Mona Mckinniss:to have to fight to save those kittens.
Mona Mckinniss:And you can't take this mom in if she's feral and expect her to take care of
Mona Mckinniss:those kittens inside in a cage, and
Mona Mckinniss:they usually get stressed, they stop nursing and then you still
Mona Mckinniss:end up losing those kittens.
Mona Mckinniss:You should have just spayed her before she
Dr. G:had them.
Dr. G:Right, right.
Dr. G:. For any somebody that is out there that wants to learn how to trap,
Dr. G:how to do TNR and that kind of stuff first, what are the resources available
Dr. G:to individuals that wanna do T N R?
Dr. G:And then how is the process of trapping, getting them fixed and releasing them?
Dr. G:Dan, do you wanna talk about, the resources that your
Dr. G:group offers for education?
Dan Spehar:On our website, um, in, in, in terms of training, um, we're gonna
Dan Spehar:probably refer you to, to some of the national organizations, but Neighborhood
Dan Spehar:Cats has outstanding resources.
Dan Spehar:They have videos, they put on webinars all the time.
Dan Spehar:They have a TNR handbook, which is A through Z, every step, every
Dan Spehar:facet of tnr that you could think of they address in that handbook.
Dan Spehar:Of course, Alley Cat Allies has all kinds of resources.
Dan Spehar:Um, all those are available on the resource page in our, on our
Dan Spehar:website if you wanna look at those.
Dan Spehar:Um, our summit that we hold every year, , we haven't done it the past couple of
Dan Spehar:years because we've been virtual, but when we have the in-person summits, we
Dan Spehar:always have kind of a TNR 1 0 1, uh, where we go over the, the basics of the
Dan Spehar:trapping and, and returning of the cats.
Dan Spehar:So, um, you know, we do offer that as well, but, um, those
Dan Spehar:resources are readily available.
Dan Spehar:Um, and the videos are terrific.
Dan Spehar:Alley Cat Allies has what's called a feral friends network that, uh, you can
Dan Spehar:punch in your zip code and then there are people that volunteer locally that they're
Dan Spehar:willing to either assist physically or at least with advice on, on what to do.
Dr. G:And the summit, uh, can you let people know how they can get
Dr. G:information on attending the summit?
Dan Spehar:Yeah.
Dan Spehar:Um, we're still planning this year's summit.
Dan Spehar:We're not sure if it's gonna, we're gonna have in person or, or virtual this year.
Dan Spehar:Uh, but we should be determining that pretty soon.
Dan Spehar:Um, and then probably six to eight weeks before the summit, we start promoting it.
Dan Spehar:Uh, you can together the together initiative
Dan Spehar:website or our Facebook page and, uh, we'll, we'll be promoting that
Dan Spehar:and, you know, we'll, we'll make it clear when that's gonna be.
Dr. G:What would you say, Mona, to somebody that's wanting to, to start
Dr. G:TNR or to, or to help out volunteer, you know, putting their part into it.
Mona Mckinniss:Usually when we get a call, it's they expect someone
Mona Mckinniss:to come out and do the trapping.
Mona Mckinniss:And of course, initially they usually want them to just disappear,
Mona Mckinniss:but we explain the whole process why they are not gonna disappear.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, we of course, don't have enough trappers to go out and help everybody,
Mona Mckinniss:but we do have, um, traps that we loan out and we will certainly train
Mona Mckinniss:them and hold their hand through.
Mona Mckinniss:Pretty much the whole process, and it is intimidating when you first started.
Mona Mckinniss:I mean, you hear that first trap close and the cat freaks out.
Mona Mckinniss:It's very upsetting and we understand that.
Mona Mckinniss:But almost everybody, once they do it and see how well the cat does
Mona Mckinniss:afterwards, they're, they're on board.
Mona Mckinniss:They take the, they take it and run with it and can do it themselves.
Mona Mckinniss:We have 80 year old people out there sometimes that will be doing it
Mona Mckinniss:themselves because we just don't have the volunteers to help here in central Ohio.
Mona Mckinniss:So, um, but of course the other big problem is finding the place
Mona Mckinniss:to get 'em spayed or neutered.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, the, that has dwindled a lot over the last couple years in this community.
Mona Mckinniss:So, um, you know, it, it, that's the tough part right now.
Dan Spehar:I was just gonna put in a, a plug for our, uh,
Dan Spehar:Community cat resource guide.
Dan Spehar:So we, we have that broken down into TNR resources, which are TNR groups
Dan Spehar:that may be able to offer actually some trapping, uh, assistance, or at
Dan Spehar:least the loaning of traps, if not coming out to help with trapping.
Dan Spehar:And then we have spay neuter resources, so places the cats
Dan Spehar:can be taken to be sterilized.
Dan Spehar:So we're gonna be, I'm gonna be updating that probably this weekend.
Dan Spehar:So it'll be, uh, current up to, you know, the present day, uh, as of this.
Dan Spehar:This
Dr. G:weekend.
Dr. G:Excellent.
Dr. G:And we'll put that information on our website@forensics.vet.
Dr. G:Great.
Dr. G:Forensic VT on the resource page.
Dr. G:So how, what should people expect?
Dr. G:Let's say, you know, again, they're getting ready to do TNR, what is the
Dr. G:process from the trapper's perspective?
Mona Mckinniss:Well, they, um, come in and borrow the traps and we, um,
Mona Mckinniss:Help them either make appointments or tell them where they can probably go to
Mona Mckinniss:get the cats, uh, spayed or neutered.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, they do the trapping sometimes we'll help with transportation.
Mona Mckinniss:Most often they do their own transportation.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, the cats get recovered at least overnight.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, if there was.
Mona Mckinniss:Something, um, that needed to be monitored longer.
Mona Mckinniss:We'll hold them as long as the vet recommends.
Mona Mckinniss:And then, um, they are released.
Mona Mckinniss:We do have when the weather is really bad, they, if they don't
Mona Mckinniss:have a place to, um, recover them overnight, we can often help with that.
Mona Mckinniss:Um, they'll drop 'em off after surgery, pick 'em back up the next day.
Mona Mckinniss:, so, you know, watching that cat leave that trap, that's the end
Dr. G:goal.
Dr. G:And what would you say to people that, that are trying
Dr. G:to get a cat to go into a trap?
Dr. G:How should they prepare, like even days or weeks for the day of the trapping?
Dr. G:What kind of things do they need to do to get the cat to kind of come back at
Dr. G:the time that they need to come back?
Dr. G:Well, the best
Mona Mckinniss:thing they can do is get it on a schedule, a feeding schedule, try
Mona Mckinniss:to feed at the same time, um, every day.
Mona Mckinniss:And then, , you can, , trap train them by tying the trap open so
Mona Mckinniss:that, , you start with the food close to the door, slowly move it back.
Mona Mckinniss:And over a few days, the cat goes in and out of the trap.
Mona Mckinniss:The trap doesn't shut on them because it's tied open.
Mona Mckinniss:And then when it's time to trap, you let the release go and,
Mona Mckinniss:and, um, it closes on the cat.
Mona Mckinniss:So, , you know, smelly, good, smelly, , bait.
Mona Mckinniss:, but the just general, , general classic trapping, uh, stuff.
Dr. G:And from a veterinary perspective, one big thing that I wanna tell people
Dr. G:is leave those cats in the trap, right?
Dr. G:There are so many people that take the cat, they, it's in the safety of the trap,
Dr. G:and then they open it and they transfer them into a cage because they think that
Dr. G:the cage is a nicer, better environment.
Dr. G:Let me tell you what, that feral cat does not care if it's a cage or a trap.
Dr. G:It's unhappy no matter what.
Dr. G:So it is so much safer.
Dr. G:It, it is not okay to show people the stress that the cats go through when
Dr. G:they're in a cage because it would just, I mean, I'm sure that we would be
Dr. G:getting calls from all sorts of people saying that we're horrible people.
Dr. G:But when a cat, when a feral cat is in a cage, get them sedated.
Dr. G:It's unsafe for the cat.
Dr. G:It's unsafe for the staff.
Dr. G:It's unsafe for everyone.
Dr. G:Um, It is so much easier to have 'em in that trap, and then you can
Dr. G:just pin 'em into a little corner.
Dr. G:You poke them, they struggle very minimally, and then they
Dr. G:can recover in that trap.
Dr. G:So please, people leave cats in traps.
Dr. G:Don't take 'em out of a trap and, and get them in a trap.
Dr. G:Don't, don't just catch 'em in a.
Dr. G:, in a cage and bring 'em in.
Dr. G:Uh, what kind of traps would you recommend that people get?
Dr. G:Or where can people get traps?
Dr. G:You know, if somebody wants to start getting traps on
Dan Spehar:their own?
Dan Spehar:Uh, I, I'd like true catch, that's just me.
Dan Spehar:Um, I know a lot of people like Tomahawk.
Dan Spehar:Uh, the true, true catch has the door that falls more gently than the
Dan Spehar:tomahawk trap would kind of snapshot.
Dan Spehar:Um, that's what I've always used, but you know, whatever works for you is.
Dan Spehar:Most important.
Dan Spehar:Yeah,
Mona Mckinniss:those, I think those are the two big brands that, um, most trappers
Mona Mckinniss:really like, and I agree with the, uh, the, the quiet door when the door closes.
Mona Mckinniss:If you have several of those traps, the door closes so
Mona Mckinniss:quietly that the cats don't jump.
Mona Mckinniss:They just keep eating.
Mona Mckinniss:And you can get more trap, more cats trapped, um, with those quiet traps.
Mona Mckinniss:But you also need to, um, consider the box trap.
Mona Mckinniss:The drop trap, not the box trap.
Mona Mckinniss:The drop trap, um, for, for large numbers.
Mona Mckinniss:And, and those hard to catch ones, those drop traps are lifesavers.
Dr. G:And, secure those traps, like when you have traps.
Dr. G:Please.
Dr. G:Zipties are your friends, carabiners are your friends.
Dr. G:Yes?
Dr. G:Uh, you know, unfortunately we have hat cats that either coming in or leaving,
Dr. G:they just break out of the trap.
Dr. G:The cat doesn't wanna be in the trap.
Dr. G:And some of the, some of the traps that are made to be kicked and released, , You
Dr. G:know, it just takes somebody losing the grip on, on that trap and there goes
Dr. G:the cat and that cat is not coming, it's not coming back anytime soon.
Dr. G:And then making sure to cover the traps with, uh, blankets to something
Dr. G:to just decrease the, the stress of the cat and just leave them alone.
Dr. G:But wanted to make sure to, to share that as well.
Dr. G:Hopefully this has been really the information for people and just kind
Dr. G:of overall learning the importance of tnr and the process of tnr.
Dr. G:Um, definitely, you know, you, if you're interested in, in helping
Dr. G:community cats, you have to be active and proactive about it.
Dr. G:You cannot expect somebody to just come in and do the work for you,
Dr. G:and you have to be understanding of the veterinary shortage.
Dr. G:Um, Knocking on somebody's door and saying, you gotta fix this cat, or else
Dr. G:that's not really gonna get you anywhere.
Dr. G:Um, but also, you know, it, it would be nice if more and more
Dr. G:veterinarians got good at high quality, high volume sterilization.
Dr. G:I know that we are doing a lot to train new graduates, like anything, everybody
Dr. G:from first to fourth year, veterinary students on just having those skills
Dr. G:so that they can get a large number of animals done in a safe manner.
Dr. G:Because that's part of the, part of the point, high quality,
Dr. G:high volume sterilization.
Dr. G:It's not just numbers, is safety and quality of, of the procedure so that
Dr. G:these animals can get, can get fixed.
Dr. G:, If we don't all work together, then nothing's gonna happen.
Dr. G:So is there anything that you guys want to share in closing?
Dan Spehar:You know, I was gonna say, we talked briefly about population control.
Dan Spehar:, I just had a few numbers that I wanted to mention.
Dan Spehar:, we, we did a few studies not only on, you know, the shelter, new to return
Dan Spehar:in combination with the T N R, but we, we looked at some T N R programs that
Dan Spehar:were either run by individuals or t n r groups and, um, they ranged, um,
Dan Spehar:These were over long periods of time.
Dan Spehar:So not only did they achieve results with, the results with colony monitoring were
Dan Spehar:sustained over a long period of time.
Dan Spehar:, just I'm gonna give you some percentages of the, of the
Dan Spehar:declines in the populations.
Dan Spehar:, 300 cats were reduced to zero, so that was a hundred percent reduction over 17
Dan Spehar:years in, uh, Newburyport, Massachusetts.
Dan Spehar:In Chicago, they, , in a urban neighborhood.
Dan Spehar:They, , worked with a number of colonies between four and 10 years.
Dan Spehar:They enrolled them at different times, but the average was a
Dan Spehar:54% decline in population there.
Dan Spehar:Um, in the San Francisco area.
Dan Spehar:, over 16 years, they went from 258 cats down to one, one cat.
Dan Spehar:And, uh, at the University of Central Florida, uh, Julie Levy,
Dan Spehar:who I mentioned before, did a study in the early two thousands
Dan Spehar:that we followed up on in, , 2018.
Dan Spehar:And over a 28 year period, uh, total of 204 cats, uh, on the University of Central
Dan Spehar:Florida campus, were reduced to 10.
Dan Spehar:So, uh, those are some pretty impressive results, um, that were
Dan Spehar:sustained over a long period of time.
Dan Spehar:And I'm gonna mention again in, , lake County, um, in Menor,
Dan Spehar:, they had some numbers available.
Dan Spehar:They saw a 30% decline over a two year period.
Dan Spehar:So that's, uh, you know, somebody in Ohio here who has some documented success.
Dan Spehar:Um, yeah, so TNR does work.
Dan Spehar:Um, we talked about the benefits to the cats.
Dan Spehar:, the population reductions not only benefits the cats, but
Dan Spehar:it benefits the communities.
Dan Spehar:The people that maybe don't care for the cats or don't want the cats in their
Dan Spehar:yards or on their properties, they're happy about the population reduction.
Dan Spehar:And anybody who's concerned about, you know, wildlife pre predation, or any of
Dan Spehar:the other issues surrounding community cats, they're happy about that as well.
Dan Spehar:So, TNR can accomplish all those things.
Dr. G:Mona, do you have anything that you wanna share as we end this episode?
Dr. G:Well,
Mona Mckinniss:I, I agree with everything Dan just said.
Mona Mckinniss:It.
Mona Mckinniss:The population control is, is certainly, um, the primary
Mona Mckinniss:thing, but it also improves the quality of life for these cats.
Mona Mckinniss:And obviously we're all cat lovers or we wouldn't even be talking about it or, or
Mona Mckinniss:doing it, spending all our hours doing it.
Mona Mckinniss:But, um, the quality, the of life for these cats is, uh,
Mona Mckinniss:It's greatly improved with TNR.
Mona Mckinniss:So it's, it's certainly a positive
Dr. G:thing.
Dr. G:. Yeah, we need to do more for, for the cats in our community.
Dr. G:We need to understand that they outside is their home.
Dr. G:They're not, they're not homeless, they are at home.
Dr. G:So, um, thank you for what you are both doing for Community Cats in Ohio, and
Dr. G:thank you for being here and sharing your experiences and information, uh, and
Dr. G:let's keep working on it.
Dr. G:Yeah.
Dr. G:And everybody out there, thanks for joining us and thanks for caring.
Dr. G:Thank you.
Mona Mckinniss:Thank you, Dr.
