UF Animal Forensic Conference 2024: Dog Aggression and Bite Fatalities with Jim Crosby

DrG: 00:00:05

Our next guest is Dr.

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Jim Crosby, uh, who is an expert

in canine aggression and dog bites.

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Thank you for being here

and welcome to The Junction.

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Jim Crosby: Oh, thanks for having me and

being here at the forensics conference has

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been a lot of fun and it's good also to

catch up with old friends and new ones.

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DrG: So can you start by telling us what

your background is and how it relates

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to the field of veterinary forensics?

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Jim Crosby: Sure, I spent an entire career

as a police officer out on the street.

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So, in investigating crimes for

23 years, I was used to looking

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at things from, through that lens.

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When I retired and got into first

learning about dog training and dog

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behavior, I became aware of the case

in: 2001

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by the dogs out in San Francisco.

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And that bizarrely fascinated me

because it never occurred to me.

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that dogs would kill a person.

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We mistreat each other all the

time, and we mistreat animals,

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but dogs killing a person?

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So I started asking questions, and

that led to me getting a lot of

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training in specifically dog behavior,

but animal behavior in general.

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Uh, and eventually coming here

to the University of Florida

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and getting a master's degree in

veterinary forensics, and then

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following that up and getting a PhD.

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And those studies for both my

master's and my doctorate have

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been focused on dog aggression,

dog bites, and most particularly

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fatal dog attacks on human beings.

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DrG: So what is the importance of

investigating dog bites, especially

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when they lead to fatalities?

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Jim Crosby: It's very, very important

to adequately investigate and not

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make assumptions because unless we

really know and understand what's

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going on and what has led to this,

there's no way for us to prevent or

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reduce the incidences in the future.

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Yes, it's a rare occasion.

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The odds of being killed in the

United States by a dog attack

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are about 1 in 15 million.

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But, for those 30 or 40 people a

year, for their families, if we can

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do something that's effective to

reduce the likelihood of even a few

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of those, then that's going to make

a big difference in somebody's life.

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If it's just simply bites again.

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The public, the owners, the dogs

themselves are placed in danger.

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If we understand what leads to

inappropriate and uncontrolled

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use of their teeth, whether it's

against each other or humans, we

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can improve the quality of life

for the owners, the non dog owning

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public, and the dogs themselves.

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DrG: I think that social media and

television and news and all that stuff

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has given the public an idea of what

a killer dog looks like or is, right?

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And I work with a lot of animals.

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I do high volume

sterilization and wellness.

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So I see tons of dogs coming and going

and my perception is that of what an

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aggressive dog is, is very different

because most of the, you know, what

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people would say, the pit types and such

tend to be nicer to us than like the

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really little dogs and some other breeds.

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So if somebody asks you what a

killer dog looks like, what is, what,

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what does that look like to you?

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Jim Crosby: It winds up being a

situation where you can't really

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tell by looking at the appearance

of a dog, what it's going to do.

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As I mentioned in the lecture,

the research has shown that even

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dog professionals have a difficult

time with mixed breeds telling

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what the predominant breed is, or

what the mix of breeds might be.

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The research also says that individuals

within breeds have more variation in

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behavior than they do between breeds.

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So What does a killer dog look like?

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Well, it has four legs, and it

may be big like a Great Dane.

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It may be as small as a

Pomeranian, because both types

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of dogs have killed human beings.

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What we need to learn, instead of trying

to figure out what a dog looks like

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that's a killer, is to learn what a dog

is communicating when it's speaking to us.

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and learn to listen when the dogs are

telling us they're uncomfortable, or

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they're afraid, or they're unsure, or

any of the reasons that a dog finds

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it necessary to use their teeth.

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DrG: Last year was the first

time that I actually learned

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about the Dunbar Bite Scale.

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So, can you tell us what that means

and how it's used to assess dog bites?

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Jim Crosby: Yeah, it's a six level scale.

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that Dr.

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Ian Dunbar developed back in the

late 70s as a guide to assessing

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the severity of dog bites in a

quantifiable way beyond Ooh, that's bad.

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Oh, that's not so bad.

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Ooh, that's the worst I've ever seen.

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I hear that far too often from various

parties, and it's, to me, it's,

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Well, if that's the worst you've

ever seen, I'm really unimpressed.

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Let me show you some pictures.

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But, um, what the scale does

is let us quantify to a certain

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degree the engagement of the dog

and the circumstances and develop

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a relative level of severity.

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A level one is just intimidation behavior.

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There's no physical

contact with a level one.

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The dog growls, barks.

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communicates in an or, in, in a,

uh, purpose usually to gain space.

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Level 2 is may, may be contact,

but it's with a closed mouth,

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a muzzle punch basically.

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Uh, a dog shoving you back,

trying to raise its voice, saying,

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Hey, I'm uncomfortable here.

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Level 3 is where you first get

a very, inhibited and controlled

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contact with human skin.

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It's one to four holes and they're

shallow holes because, and it's

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one to four because the canine

teeth are usually about twice as

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long as the incisors between them.

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So a limited bite.

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in relationship to the dog and

the size of their teeth, will only

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engage part of the canine teeth.

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Level four is where you've got

a dog that has reached out and

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grabbed on and sunk most, if not

all of its teeth into the target.

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And that's where you find shaking and

pulling and, and dragging around a

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level five is multiple level fours.

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You know, this, that's a dog that's

basically chainsaw with teeth.

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And a level six is a human fatality.

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Yeah, that's kind of specieist

of us to consider that no matter

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how serious it was, if it kills

us, it's the worst of the worst.

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But that's those the

criteria that were set up.

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It's a good basic reference

scale to relatively understand

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how how serious an incident was.

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If, for instance, out of our audience, if

one out of animal control officer here has

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a dog in his jurisdiction that has bitten

somebody, and then they move to another

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jurisdiction and they have an incident,

the second animal control officer can

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conceivably call the first one and say,

Hey, what's the history on this dog?

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And rather than saying, Oh yeah,

it was a bite, but it was no

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big deal, the first one can say,

Hey, this was a level four bite.

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And the second officer will understand,

Okay, this dog has a history of

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substantially uncontrolled biting.

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And that helps communicate

concerns much more clearly.

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DrG: Does animal behavior, in

your experience, have anything to

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do with the severity of a bite?

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Jim Crosby: Oh yes, it's, behavior

is, um, is very, very central to it.

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For instance, if you have a fearful

dog, that is backed up in a corner.

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That's why we need to teach better

body language skills, because

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that dog doesn't need a hug.

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And if you run over, or a child runs

over, and grabs it around the neck to

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make it feel better, it's gonna bite you.

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Why?

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Well, it's tried to tell

you it's uncomfortable, and

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you just weren't listening.

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Or maybe you just didn't understand.

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Um, behavior is related

to the severity of bites.

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Um, dogs that have are well socialized

and have learned, um, limits within

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their lives, either from conspecifics or

from littermates or from their parents.

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Um, they tend to have much more

stable temperaments and when they

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feel or perceive that it's necessary

to bite, they tend to show a

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much more controlled engagement.

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So, so the behavior, yeah, the, the,

Regular behavior of a dog can tell us

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a whole lot about what they're likely

to do if they're poked and prodded to

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whatever their threshold of engagement is.

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DrG: Yeah, I know that there have

been bites that have occurred because

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people have put their hands into a

dog's cage or, you know, approached an

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animal or try to separate animals and

then that results in, in dog bites.

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So, it, the dog often gets blamed

for the action of the bite, but it

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doesn't necessarily mean that the

dog initiated the, the sequence of

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events, right, that led to that bite.

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Jim Crosby: Right.

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Yeah.

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What I If you've ever traveled through

the UK, you know there's a voice that

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comes up in the tube, the subway,

that says, mind the gap, mind the gap.

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I've adopted that in dog bites.

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One of the first things I want to know

is when the dog chose to bite, did the

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dog close the gap to the person or did

the person close the gap to the dog.

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If I have a case where a dog has chased

a child down the street after jumping

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over two fences and digging under,

uh, uh, something else, and then grabs

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the child, and closes the gap and and

expends all of that energy to bite.

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That's way different from a dog that

is in real case sitting minding its

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own business and a stranger came up and

despite the strength, the owner's warnings

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and attempt to keep the stranger away.

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Pushes past the owner, leans over,

grabs the dog by the cheeks, and

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tries to kiss it on the nose, saying,

Dude, I'm like a dog whisperer.

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Yes, he lost a significant

portion of his nose.

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Had it coming.

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DrG: Right.

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Jim Crosby: Different bite.

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DrG: Who is more likely, uh,

statistically to get attacked

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or be a fatality of a dog bite?

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Jim Crosby: The numbers

have been hard to nail down.

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It seems that for instance, with

children below the age of 10,

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little boys are very significantly

more likely to have been fatally

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wounded by a dog than little girls.

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Uh, when we come to adults, the most

common victim to date has been a woman

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in her thirties on her own property,

uh, with dogs that she's either

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owning or cared caring for, uh, in

the Southeastern U S in a upper middle

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class neighborhood where the gross

annual income is above 100, 000 a year.

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So not the bad neighborhood

problem we thought it was.

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DrG: Should all animals that have

bites that are like level 5 or level 6

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bites, should all of them be considered

dangerous animals or not and why?

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Jim Crosby: By the time we get to the

level 5s and the human fatalities, for

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the fatalities for instance, pretty much

all state law requires that any dog that

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kills a human being be destroyed period.

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Uh, it's at very least declared

dangerous, but I can't think of a state

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that doesn't require the destruction.

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Level five dogs.

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Those are dangerous dogs.

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Those are animals that have not only

shown that with a single bite, they

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have little to no bite inhibition,

but have inflicted repeated bites

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at that level and caused significant

damage every time they have bitten.

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So those are dogs that I don't have a

problem with, with declaring a level

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5 biting dog as being dangerous.

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And they meet the standard in most

states for being declared dangerous.

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I believe, uh, Indiana still

doesn't have a dangerous dog law,

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but the rest of the country does.

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DrG: When a dog attacks and hurts somebody

or kills somebody, who is ultimately

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responsible for, for that fatality?

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Jim Crosby: Most often it falls to

the owner or caretaker of the dog.

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Typically, they have either done something

or failed to do something that addressed

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the behavior issues that accompanied

the bite before it got to that level.

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. Sure, people say all the time,

well, it came out of nowhere.

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If you dig in, no, they

don't come out of nowhere.

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You may not know the history, for

instance, if it's a stray you've taken in.

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But, typically, to get to that severe

an incident, there have been plenty of

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warning signs and usually lower level

precursor behaviors before they go off

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to the point that it results in a death.

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Unless it's what I call an accidental,

which as I explained before, dog

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bites you and you accidentally get

an infection from a very small bite

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and your body can't fight off the

infection and you die, that's not

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something the dog could foresee.

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DrG: If there are any, any listeners

that are animal control officers or

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investigators that want to obtain

more information on this subject,

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how can they get more resources

or how can they get a hold of you?

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Jim Crosby: The easiest way to

contact me is, uh, my email, which

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is the words CanineAggression.

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and that's spelled out C A N I

N E, not the letter and number,

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but Canine Aggression at Gmail.

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They can also contact me

at jcrosby@FAS.harvard.edu.

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Uh, that's the new Canine

Aggression Project we have

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through the Brain Lab at Harvard.

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Um, they can just simply Google

Jim Crosby Dog and I come right up.

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Um, they can also look, there's,

Uh, a book out, it's called

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Dog Bites, a Multidisciplinary

Perspective, edited by Dr.

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Daniel Mills and Dr.

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Kerry Westgarth over in the UK.

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There are a number of articles within that

book about dog bites and dog aggression.

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I wrote two of the chapters, one on

investigation and one on the, uh,

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um, physical morphology of bites.

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So, there are, there are,

uh, resources out there.

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And if somebody's really interested

in veterinary forensics overall,

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there's a program right here at the

University of Florida that I've been

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through all the way as far as it goes.

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And, uh, yeah, it's a,

it's a great program.

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And, uh, even people who may think

they've got a lot of knowledge

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about the whole subject can learn

an awful lot from this group.

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DrG: Yes, I actually, I did the Forensics

Master's, Veterinary Forensics Master's,

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so I tell anybody that's very interested

in the field of Veterinary Forensics

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that it's worthwhile because you, you

don't know what you don't know until

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you get through something like that.

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Jim Crosby: Exactly, and I completed

the same Master's, um, and then

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went and completed it as a PhD, so,

through the vet school, so, yeah, it's

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a, it's very valuable information.

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And it puts a lot of us in touch.

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DrG: Yes, right?

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That's what I really enjoy about this

conference and conferences like this.

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It's all the contacts and

the people that you meet.

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Because, again, you don't know

what resources that are out there.

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And then you come to a place like

this and then you meet people and it's

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like, Oh, I didn't know that existed.

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Jim Crosby: And

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DrG: you, if anything,

have another resource.

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Jim Crosby: Yeah, and it's always

great to be able to call up somebody

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you actually know and say, Hey,

listen, I need some advice on this.

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And, you know, I'm always, I'm

always glad to hear from others,

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uh, when they run across something

they haven't seen, you know.

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I may not know it, but

maybe I know who does.

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DrG: Excellent.

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Well, thank you very much for giving us

your time and sharing your knowledge.

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And thank you for everything

that you're doing for animals.

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Jim Crosby: Well, thank you and, uh,

best wishes to you and to the podcast

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and to all your listeners out there.

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DrG: Thank you so much.