UF Animal Forensics Conference 2024: Preparing for Trial with Jamie McManus

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Our next guest is Jamie McManus.

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Thank you for being here

and welcome to The Junction.

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Jamie McManus: Thanks for having me.

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I'm happy to be here.

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DrG: Excellent.

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So can you tell us about what

it is that you do and how it

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relates to animal forensics?

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Jamie McManus: Well, I am a

prosecutor in the state of Florida.

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I work for the state attorney's

office of the Ninth Judicial Circuit.

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My boss is Andrew Bain,

the state attorney.

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We have an animal cruelty unit at the

office of the state attorney in the Ninth

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Circuit, which covers orange and Osceola.

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The Animal Cruelty Unit is, consists

of prosecutors who actually just

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volunteer, right, to take animal

cases that come into their division in

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addition to all of their other cases.

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So they're actually doing more work

and we're not paying them more for it.

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So

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DrG: as a prosecutor, how

do you prepare for a case?

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Jamie McManus: So the first thing

I do, um, if we're talking about

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What charges am I going to file?

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I'm going to read everything that

was written about this incident.

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Sometimes I'm left with questions after

reviewing everything I've been given so

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I may reach out to my animal services,

often my veterinarian to help me fill

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in the blanks, um, or the detective if

there was one to try to get the additional

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information and usually it's information

that I know, if we were at trial, the jury

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would be asking, what about this thing?

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So I try to anticipate all that

on the front end to make sure all

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their questions are answered in

the event we have to go to trial.

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DrG: I spoke with Lauryn Day 'cause

we were talking about the warrants and

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the seizures and that kind of stuff.

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So the term motion to suppress came about.

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So what, what does that mean

and how does it impact the, your

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ability to prosecute a case?

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Jamie McManus: So, it could

be devastating, right?

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A motion to suppress is a written motion

filed by the defendant or his attorney

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asking the court to throw out evidence.

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Exclude it.

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And the basis for that um, exclusion could

be, is usually some kind of constitutional

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violation that the defendant is alleging.

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And the way we combat that, obviously,

is first of all to make sure that the

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motion Um, is not founded, um, but if it

is, is there a way to save the search?

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Um, ultimately, if the motion is

granted and it can't be appealed

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because maybe it was a good motion,

we could have to drop the case.

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DrG: So that would be, for instance,

like in a case of animal cruelty, if the,

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if the paraphernalia in a dogfighting

case was not obtained properly or the

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warrant did not include it and that gets

eliminated, then you are limited to not

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being able to file a dogfighting charge.

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Well,

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Jamie McManus: it depends.

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What other evidence of

dogfighting do I have?

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I mean, because, um, not to get it all

into dogfighting, but, uh, you know,

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Where are the injuries on the animals?

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How many animals were there?

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What kinds of animals were there?

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What was the, uh, what

did the yard look like?

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Were the animals being kept?

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I mean, you know as well as I do, there

are a lot of ways to establish, uh, that

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someone is involved in animal fighting.

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Um, I would hate to lose

the paraphernalia, but I

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would fight hard if I did.

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DrG: In cases of animal cruelty, we have

to take into consideration that animals

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are a different kind of evidence, right?

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They're living evidence and

they cannot be put in a locker

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and locked up and maintained.

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So, um, what are, what are the purposes of

bond hearings and cost of care hearings?

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Jamie McManus: So those are

actually two different things,

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at least in the state of Florida.

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So when an animal is seized from

an owner who has not relinquished

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the animal, right, uh, there has to

be a hearing where the judge just

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determines whether this person should

get their property back because an

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animal is property, technically.

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Um, and so that's a civil

proceeding, usually handled in

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Florida by our county attorneys.

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Now, a bond hearing, the defendant's

been arrested for a crime and, um,

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has gone to jail, has not bonded out

yet, either they can't afford the bond

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that has been assigned to their case

or they want to be released on their

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own recognizance or something like that.

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So at that point, the purpose of the,

of the hearing would be to establish

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that the defendant, um, should not be

released on their own or cognizance

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based on the facts of the case based on,

you know, maybe there's evidence that

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they don't have ties to the community.

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Maybe they'll flee.

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There's a whole list of different factors.

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The court is looking at at a bond hearing.

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Uh, there have been times where I filed

a bond motion, but it wasn't obviously

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asking that the court reduced bond.

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It was asking that the court.

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impose conditions on the bond that

weren't imposed at the time of arrest,

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such as you cannot own, possess, or be

in the company of any animal, right?

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And you notice the language I

use is very specific because what

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defendants have done historically

is say, Oh, I don't own this dog.

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Right.

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It's my daughter's dog.

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DrG: Right.

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Jamie McManus: So I, I fixed

the language so that you cannot

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be in a house conveyance or

structure where there is an animal.

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DrG: And then as far as the cost of care

hearing, what is the purpose of that?

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Jamie McManus: The purpose of, and,

and to be clear, I haven't done those

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hearings, they're civil in nature.

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Um, I've helped a county attorney

one time prepare for one just because

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there was a criminal case attached.

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But basically the court is trying

to decide whether the owner is

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a danger to the animal, right?

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Um, there are specific factors the

court's looking at, um, but essentially

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that's the, the purpose of it.

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Should the animal go back to this owner.

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DrG: So by civil, it basically then in

that, in those, uh, cost of care hearings,

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that's going to be more probable cause,

not as much beyond reasonable doubt.

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Jamie McManus: There is a

different standard of proof.

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Um, probable cause is the second

lowest legal standard that exists.

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So I doubt it would be probable cause

at a hearing, uh, for, you know, custody

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hearing for the animals is probably

preponderance or something like that.

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But yeah, it is less than beyond

a reasonable doubt for sure.

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DrG: So once you have everything

together, how do you prepare yourself

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and your witnesses for trial?

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Jamie McManus: First I prepare myself.

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I look at all the evidence

and what is the story?

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What happened?

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Why did it happen?

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Right?

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What pieces of the background

of this incident are important?

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Right?

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So After I develop the narrative,

then I put my witness list together.

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There may be, you know, 30 people

listed on the witness list just

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because they were somehow involved.

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And in the state of Florida, we have to

list basically everyone who was involved.

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But who am I actually

going to call at trial?

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I make that determination, and then

I determine what is the evidence,

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uh, that I need to present?

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What does the jury need to see?

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More importantly, what

do they want to see?

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Right?

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Um, and assuming that it's relevant and

admissible, I will give them everything

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I can once I've got my game plan

once I have built the house, right?

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I've got the frame

built, um, got the plans.

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Then I start calling my witnesses and

I will set meetings with each of them.

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For me, I have my witnesses

come in the questions.

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I intend to ask them a trial.

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I've already written.

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The evidence I'm going to admit through

them, I have copies of it, or I will,

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um, be able to show them on the computer.

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And we go through, um, the

entire, uh, trial basically.

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Right?

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And, and that way I'm able to issue spot.

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And go back to the drawing

board if I need to.

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Also, it serves the added purpose of

the witness feels more comfortable.

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They know what is going to be asked.

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Um, they know the point

I'm trying to make.

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And so, it's more like a conversation

and less like an inquisition.

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Right.

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DrG: And, and I appreciate that

because I've, I've performed as an

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expert witness a couple of times, and

I've had both ends of the spectrum.

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I had a prosecutor that showed me

every question, discussed everything.

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I mean, she took a couple of

hours to go over everything

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that she was going to go over.

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What kind of information she

was going to have me read.

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What kind of records she

was going to have me do.

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And then I've had the complete opposite,

where I have no information, I have

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no idea of what I'm going to be shown.

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So, what should an expert witness

expect from a prosecutor, or what should

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they kind of demand from a prosecutor?

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Jamie McManus: An expert witness

should demand to be prepared for trial.

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Right.

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Prosecutors are very busy.

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I know you probably heard in

the talk I just gave, we have

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prosecutors in my office that

have close to four and 500 cases.

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Um, that is a lot, it's a lot to read.

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It's a lot of witnesses to talk to.

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So we have to be kind of realistic

with what they're able to do.

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Animal cruelty in Florida, it's a

felony, but it's a third degree felony.

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So that means the prosecutors at the

very bottom of circuit court, so the

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lowest level prosecutors, are the ones

that handle the animal cruelty cases.

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The ones that have four and five hundred

other cases, which is part of the reason,

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uh, you know, I thought it was really

important to have an animal cruelty unit.

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Because a prosecutor who really

cares about the subject matter, is

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going to put their heart into it.

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And do it right.

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Versus how they handle every other

of their third degree felony cases.

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Keeping all that in mind, if

your prosecutor does not reach

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out to you and you know, you've

got a trial subpoena, right.

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I would reach out to the prosecutor.

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It may take a couple of times.

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But let them know, Hey, I don't know

what you're going to ask me at trial.

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Can you call me and we can spend

like 20, 30 minutes going over it?

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Um, and if you have your questions

written out, you can send them to

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me and, and we'll save some time.

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Um, but really it, it's very important

as the expert, uh, that you spend time

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ahead of time with your prosecutor.

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Uh, and you're right, the prep

of an expert witness, even on

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a third degree felony, like an

animal case, your prep would take

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a couple hours if I were doing it.

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I mean, and it's going to depend on

the facts of the case, but you know,

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we have to establish your expertise.

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Um, and then we, we, we're not just

talking only about the facts of the case.

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We're talking about your, your

diagnosis and why you reached it.

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So in order to get there and, and to

make it as, um, I guess digestible as

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possible for the jury, You know, the

prosecutor and the, the veterinarian

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need to get together ahead of time and

make sure they understand each other.

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It's already difficult enough

because of the scientific terms.

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It's

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a specialty.

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So not only does a prosecutor need to

learn what you know, kind of, but the

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prosecutor needs to be able to reinterpret

that so that a jury will understand it.

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and use it in a meaningful way within

the confines of the facts of their case.

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DrG: Can a poorly prepared

witness damage your case?

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Jamie McManus: No, it's the

prosecutor who damaged the case.

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So, yes, if the prosecutor poorly prepares

their witnesses, the case can be affected.

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DrG: Veterinarians are often needed for

these cases, but I know from experience

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that a lot of veterinarians are reluctant

to be expert witnesses for a lot of

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different reasons from feeling unprepared

for feeling that they're going to be

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grilled and their knowledge and integrity

is going to be put on the stand, like,

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they feel like they're on their stand.

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Um, to also feeling that, them being

in a court of law as a witness is

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going to look bad to the community.

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They're going to say, well, if I take

my sick animal to the vet, and the

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vet is testifying against me, you

know, like, how is that going to look?

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And in my experience, none of those

things are necessarily true, but I

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feel that it's a lack of preparation.

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How can you help a veterinarian

feel more confident and be a

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more effective expert witness?

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Jamie McManus: So the first thing I

would say is anything that happens

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in the case is on the prosecutor.

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And maybe sometimes on

the lead investigator.

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So I, I think a lot of veterinarians,

uh, because they're high achieving

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people and they care about the animals.

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They're really just worried about

messing something up and they

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don't want to be the cause of that.

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DrG: Right.

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fear of failure.

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Jamie McManus: Right.

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And I understand it.

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So I would just say to them,

it's never on your witness.

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The second thing I would say, anytime you

have an expert witness, that expert is

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going to be cross examined by defense.

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And defense is going to insinuate

that that expert witness is not an

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expert, or that they're a bad expert,

or that they're a dumb expert, um,

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and it's just par for the course.

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Like I said in my talk, you have to

let the defense attorney do a good

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job, because if you don't, and we get

a conviction, the case might come back

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and then we're going to do it again.

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So let the defense

attorney do their thing.

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Um, the third thing I would say is that

No matter what the defense says or does,

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um, the veterinarian is gonna have their

opportunity to speak to the jury and tell

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the jury what happened to this animal.

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And the jury will make a

credibility determination.

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Um, it's hard to imagine a

scenario where a veterinarian

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loses credibility to the jury.

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Just because, um, you know, the defense

attorney, you know, pointed out some

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minor flaw in some area, maybe of the

necropsy, or pointed out, you know,

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well, you can't really know for certain

that this is how the animal died.

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Well, no, I can't know for certain.

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I'm estimating, uh, based on

my training and experience.

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So that's my legal opinion, you know,

um, I think most of what I would say

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to a veterinarian who is hesitant

to testify, uh, would be kind of

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focused on, don't worry, I got this.

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I just need you to be there

and just answer the questions

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and don't worry about the rest.

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But if, if I can't get you there, um, then

there may not be justice for this animal.

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Worse, this guy may do it again.

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Um, and so I think those are the

big points I would bring to the

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veterinarians who are hesitant and I

hope that eventually as we move forward,

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um, kind of developing a culture and

prosecution offices where animal cases

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are taken seriously, we're going to

call more and more vets to testify.

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Pretty soon, my hope is, that there won't

be a vet or veterinarian in Orange or

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Osceola County who hasn't testified yet.

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And then it'll become old hat, right?

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DrG: Yes.

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So that would, that would be great

because, yeah, it is so important for

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a veterinarian to be able to explain

what happened to the animal as opposed

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to a layperson, animal control officer,

somebody that can be questioned,

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as you said, about the level of

their expertise and their knowledge.

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Right.

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So we definitely need veterinarians

to kind of step up and, and get

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over their fear and get it done.

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Jamie McManus: Well, and you know,

the, the most important thing to

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me, and I didn't say it, but you

know, animals are voiceless victims.

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They literally have no voice.

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They will be abused and, brought to the

brink of death by the owner or whomever.

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But they will still love the

owner, uh, and, uh, they forgive.

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Um, but you know, when it's time to get

justice for what happened to the animal,

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uh, there's really no one to speak for

that animal except for the veterinarian.

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And really on my animal

cases, the veterinarian is

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the most important witness.

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DrG: Well, thank you very much for

sharing your information with us.

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And thank you for everything

that you do for animals.

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Thank you.

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Jamie McManus: Thank you too

for being a veterinarian, a

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forensic veterinarian at that.

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You guys are, uh, very

necessary in my line of work.

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Thank you so much.

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Thanks.