A Leash on Life with guest Dan Ettinger

DrG: 00:00:20

Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

DrG: 00:00:21

This is your host, Dr.

DrG: 00:00:22

G, and we are joined tonight by Dan Ettinger, from the Animal Control Report.

DrG: 00:00:27

Thanks, Dan from being here.

Dan Ettinger: 00:00:29

Thanks for having me back.

Dan Ettinger: 00:00:30

I'm really excited to be part of the show and it's good to be

Dan Ettinger: 00:00:33

friends of podcasts, so this is exciting to come back and, and chat.

Dan Ettinger: 00:00:36

Chat again.

Dan Ettinger: 00:00:37

Yes.

DrG: 00:00:38

I think that this is really cool that we can, have this podcast

DrG: 00:00:41

relationship, and we do things that are different but similar.

DrG: 00:00:44

So kind of being able to share our experiences.

DrG: 00:00:47

So one of the main reason I invited you over is because something I

DrG: 00:00:50

know that you're kind of passionate about, that you talk about, and

DrG: 00:00:54

something that I believe in.

DrG: 00:00:56

It's issues that happen because of people not following leash laws.

DrG: 00:01:00

So as an animal control officer, what can you explain what are leash laws and what

DrG: 00:01:06

the importance of these leash laws are?

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:08

Absolutely.

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:08

So most, like of your, I would say most of your, like busy or urban

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:14

setting places have a leash law, which means that that animal, the dog, has

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:19

to be controlled by a leash or cord.

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:23

Typically no greater than six feet, depending on your ordinances, but

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:27

that's gonna vary wherever you go.

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:29

So the, the, that's one aspect of like how the law's written.

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:33

And then the other part of it is some places will allow for voice command.

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:37

Instead of having the, the dog on a leash, you'll find that in more of your

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:41

small towns or your, your rural areas, places that aren't just populated as much.

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:46

When you think about leash laws in general, I don't wanna say they're

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:50

like relatively new, but there is some, uh, History that goes along with it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:55

So, uh, some of our listeners probably aren't old enough to remember the times

Dan Ettinger: 00:01:59

of like, you'd have a dog and then the dog would kind of go out in the morning.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:04

You'd just open the door, the dog would run out and then

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:06

come back home later at night.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:08

And if, uh, I'm, I'm pretty sure you're familiar with Temple Grandin.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:11

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:12

Yes, yes I am.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:13

Yes.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:13

She, she's a professor at, uh, Colorado State University, and she's wrote a book.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:18

I recommend anybody, anybody, everybody to read it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:22

It is called Animals Make Us Human.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:24

And in that book, uh, she talks about this specific thing about leash laws.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:29

And it, it's really an, it's really just captivating, in my

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:31

opinion, how the increase of dog attacks, bites, and aggression.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:39

Kind of is synonymous with leashes.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:41

And you'll see that that barrier aggression, if you're walking a dog

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:45

down the street and it sees another dog on a leash and maybe it's not

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:48

well trained, it's gonna be pulling, barking, trying to go over to that dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:51

And so her philosophy on it was when they used to run free and, and she understands

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:56

that that can't happen anymore.

Dan Ettinger: 00:02:57

But when they used to run free, that didn't, that behavior didn't

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:02

necessarily exist in our pet population.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:05

So the, the whole concept of like, and why.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:08

Temple Grandin says like, there needs to be leash laws.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:11

Think about it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:11

I mean, we, our communities are busy.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:14

We have vehicles whipping around at 40 miles an hour on 25 mile an hour streets.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:20

If not faster.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:21

Uh, we have disease, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:23

So there's that propensity of all sorts of diseases, which

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:26

is totally in your wheelhouse.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:28

Dr.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:28

G, when we talk about some of those communicable diseases,

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:32

uh, we have behavioral issues.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:33

We have kids at bus stops, we have people, you know, just cruising outside

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:37

on a bike or a skateboard or one of those electric one wheel skateboard

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:42

looking things that I really want.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:44

Um, I think they have a name, but I dunno what they're called.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:47

Um, So the need for public safety.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:52

Is why we have the Leash law in that aspect, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:54

Because dogs getting hit by cars.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:56

It's not a, you know, not something we wanna see.

Dan Ettinger: 00:03:58

We don't wanna see people get bit.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:00

It's actually kind of interesting cuz a recent episode we had on

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:04

the Animal Control Report podcast.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:06

Uh, we chatted with the Community Cats podcast and I don't know if

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:10

you've checked them out, they have a really cool podcast going on.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:14

But I asked the question and I was somewhat serious, but somewhat

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:17

not serious about, why don't we just TNR dogs in this country and

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:20

free up space and shelters, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:22

Uh, and it's just due to all those things I just mentioned, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:25

You're gonna have dogs getting hit by cars, dogs attacking people,

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:29

orno, other animals, et cetera.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:31

Whereas cats, you know, they're smaller, they're more elusive, et cetera.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:35

Uh, though they can pose public safety risks like rabies and maybe some.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:42

You know, some other things.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:43

At the end of the day, dogs just kind of carry that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:46

I, I would say threats maybe, I don't know if that's the right word,

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:50

but carry that possible, you know?

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:53

, cause of an issue, whether it's, , running at large and biting somebody, et cetera.

Dan Ettinger: 00:04:58

So that's kind of my, my long answer to that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:05:01

Um, but I really recommend if, if you're into reading and you haven't read

Dan Ettinger: 00:05:05

Animals Make Us Human by Temple Grandin.

Dan Ettinger: 00:05:07

I really recommend picking that up.

Dan Ettinger: 00:05:09

And then you'll see what she's talking about in the dog, the dog part.

DrG: 00:05:13

I did listen to that podcast with Stacy and she's great.

DrG: 00:05:17

Uh, and.

DrG: 00:05:19

Yeah, the, the whole point being from Puerto Rico and Puerto Rico,

DrG: 00:05:22

there's a lot of stray dogs.

DrG: 00:05:24

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:05:24

So there's a huge population of dogs at large.

DrG: 00:05:27

So something like TNR is actually done in some areas because there is

DrG: 00:05:33

no way of just picking up the dogs and taking them to shelters or whatever.

DrG: 00:05:37

These dogs are living at the beach or living in whatever areas.

DrG: 00:05:41

So it is somewhat of a TNR type program.

DrG: 00:05:45

Uh, you don't tip their ears clearly, but um, but I do think that, that it

DrG: 00:05:50

helps somewhat control the population.

DrG: 00:05:52

But yeah, like here, here in Ohio, and I'm sure in most places, most

DrG: 00:05:56

parts of the United States, cats are outside, you immediately think of,

DrG: 00:06:01

okay, it's an outdoor cat, or it's a stray cat, or it lives outside.

DrG: 00:06:04

But immediately if you see a dog outside, the first thought that

DrG: 00:06:07

comes to somebody is it's a lost dog.

DrG: 00:06:10

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:06:10

It ran away it or somebody kicked it out.

DrG: 00:06:13

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:06:13

So there's no such thing quite as outdoor dogs, like wild

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:18

dogs in, in our, in our, in our country.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:21

Whereas it is common in, you're absolutely right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:25

Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:26

Right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:26

It's an interesting concept.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:28

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:28

And I don't know if we'll ever get to a point where, um, I don't know if we'll

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:32

ever get to a point where that will happen, where we just start putting dogs

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:36

back in the community in that aspect.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:38

But I will say that, um, leash laws are important and, and what I'll say

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:41

about the voice command, uh, it's nice, uh, but it's not a leash law.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:46

It's, you know, it's mm-hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:48

Something to put in place to, I think, um, just have some, you

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:52

know, some sort of like coverage.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:53

If there is liability or if there is an issue, there's no liability.

Dan Ettinger: 00:06:56

So, um, but at the end of the day, I'm not a fan of, of those, I'm a fan

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:01

of like having designated areas where dogs can exercise and be off leash, but

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:06

like just walking down your sidewalk.

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:08

That's one of my biggest pet peeves just in general as a human, is like

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:11

you're on a busy, busy road and you're walking your dog off leash down the

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:16

sidewalk and you know it's an animal that still is instinctual and could

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:21

chase after a squirrel or could, you know, get enticed to run right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:26

And I think that that's a little bit, um, naive of the owner to think

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:31

that, well, it's my dog and it won't ever, you know, do anything wrong.

Dan Ettinger: 00:07:35

So,

. DrG: 00:07:36

And you have to worry about not just your dog, you have to worry

. DrG: 00:07:39

about the other animals, right?

. DrG: 00:07:40

Because then, okay, your dog may be okay with other dogs, but then

. DrG: 00:07:44

you're walking and your dog thinks that it's gonna be friends with

. DrG: 00:07:46

some other dog that is leashed.

. DrG: 00:07:48

Mm-hmm.

. DrG: 00:07:48

But that dog is leashed because it's not okay with.

. DrG: 00:07:51

With other dogs, and then they get into a fight, and then

. DrG: 00:07:53

who's, whose fault is that?

. DrG: 00:07:55

You know, we get into, into the concept of who, whose liability is it?

. DrG: 00:08:00

And then regardless of whose fault it is, the end result is the dog is injured,

. DrG: 00:08:04

or the dog is hurt, or the dog is dead.

. DrG: 00:08:06

Oh,

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:06

absolutely.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:07

And then a person probably gets injured too, cuz they're gonna try to break it up.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:10

Right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:12

And I think that's the other part of it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:14

So, and that scenario that you talk about, it's really interesting.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:18

If you look at ordinances, typically, uh, you could look at some state statutes.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:22

An affirmative defense to a dog attack may not include.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:28

The attacking dog being at large, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:31

So think about that for an example.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:33

Let's say my dog's on leash and I have a dog that I know is reactive, though

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:38

my dog, my personal dog is not, he'd be like, Hey, what's going on, dude?

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:41

Um, but like, let's say I, I, um, had that dog and I'm, I'm allowed

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:46

to be outside and walk my dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:48

Should I, my, my question to you, Dr.

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:50

G, is, should I have my dog wear a basket muzzle because I know

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:54

he's reactive or she's reactive?

Dan Ettinger: 00:08:57

Me

DrG: 00:08:57

personally, I mean, I feel more comfortable with dogs wearing a

DrG: 00:09:00

basket muscle if there is a concern.

DrG: 00:09:02

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:09:02

Because there can be, there can be issues.

DrG: 00:09:05

For example, like I have my dog on a leash, I trip, I fall,

DrG: 00:09:09

something happens, that leash comes off my hand, my dog is loose.

DrG: 00:09:12

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:09:12

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:09:12

I mean, there are different things.

DrG: 00:09:14

A basket muscle doesn't hurt anything, especially a basket muscle

DrG: 00:09:16

that is properly fitted to the dog.

DrG: 00:09:18

Right?

DrG: 00:09:18

Correct.

DrG: 00:09:18

So it's not gonna hurt any, any dog.

DrG: 00:09:21

We use basket muscles in practice in our, at our clinic.

DrG: 00:09:24

If we have a dog that we're concerned that it may become aggressive, we don't

DrG: 00:09:28

wait until the bite happens, right?

DrG: 00:09:30

Sure.

DrG: 00:09:30

We don't wait until the aggression happens.

DrG: 00:09:32

We use that basket muzzle just as a way to feel more confident, cuz also animals.

DrG: 00:09:37

Can feel when we are scared and when we're not confident.

DrG: 00:09:41

So if absolutely putting that muzzle on allows my team to approach the animal

DrG: 00:09:49

with confidence, that's gonna make the dog feel a little bit more at ease, as

DrG: 00:09:52

opposed to if we are being like, really, um, scared, then the dog's gonna feel

DrG: 00:09:57

like, well, why are you scared of me?

DrG: 00:09:58

Clearly I have to be scared of you.

DrG: 00:10:00

So I think that basket muzzles are underutilized in many situations.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:05

I do too.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:06

And I, I guess I ask this question as generally if I'm a, if, let's just say

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:11

my name's John and I don't really care.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:16

Like, I'm just like, eh, I got a reactive dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:18

So what, like keep your dog on leash.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:21

I.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:22

Am I, I mean, I'm being negligent in some aspects I would think, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:25

Like mm-hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:26

I, I would think that like, um, having that knowledge, so let,

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:33

let's say I'm investigating this.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:34

Let's turn the page here and say I'm in invest investigating a dog attack

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:38

that occurred and, and we'll say John's walking his mixed dog, 70 pound just

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:43

big dog, and it's aggressive and.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:46

The complainant or the victim in this situation was just, you know,

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:52

cruising around in the neighborhood, had their dog off leash and it

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:55

wanted to go say hi and got attacked.

Dan Ettinger: 00:10:57

Now some animal control officers and I'd love feedback.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:00

So send feedback to me atDaniel@humanemain.com or Dr.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:05

G through uh, her platform.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:08

Cause I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as an animal control officer

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:11

and how you would handle this.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:12

I would say, You can still cite both parties, so you can cite the

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:17

person for having the dangerous dog that attacked the dog at large.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:21

But then you can also cite the owner for having the dog at large.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:25

It's like two wrongs.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:26

Don't make a right, like they're both wrong and they're could

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:29

potentially be some, you know.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:33

I, I would say like punishment, whether it's the dog that attacked, has to

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:37

wear a muzzle court ordered muzzle, or whether it's the person that had their

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:41

dog off leash has to, you know, make sure that they follow the leash laws.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:46

You know, I think that's, I think what we find in our profession

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:50

is, and I'll be honest, and I'm, I'm guilty of it too, at times.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:55

Sometimes officers are busy.

Dan Ettinger: 00:11:57

They have just, you know, whatever's going on.

Dan Ettinger: 00:12:01

Maybe they have a personal view of the situation, but they find ways to not

Dan Ettinger: 00:12:05

maybe do the case just based on facts.

Dan Ettinger: 00:12:07

They might put their own emotion into it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:12:10

That's a whole nother episode.

DrG: 00:12:12

And it's, uh, and it's an issue that goes beyond just the dogs that

DrG: 00:12:16

are aggressive and everything else.

DrG: 00:12:18

Um, you know, today I had this case, so, um, little dog, four pound dog.

DrG: 00:12:24

Was off leash and went into the neighbor's yard, and then it got caught

DrG: 00:12:28

by a trap, by a groundhog trap, and the groundhog trap fractured its leg.

DrG: 00:12:33

So the little dog ended up having to have the leg amputated and

DrG: 00:12:36

thankfully the, the dog is okay.

DrG: 00:12:38

This family had just gotten this, this dog from another family member.

DrG: 00:12:42

So the concern becomes, you know, everybody is of course really

DrG: 00:12:46

angry at this neighbor for having this trap, which is inhumane.

DrG: 00:12:49

And that's a.

DrG: 00:12:50

And a whole other episode as far as why those traps should not exist.

DrG: 00:12:54

But then the question is, are they really at fault for this dog having

DrG: 00:13:00

a fracture leg when the dog actually went into their yard off leash?

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:05

So the, I would love to know what the law is on those traps.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:09

So a lot of, lot of states I know ban most inhumane traps, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:15

So the leg snare traps, um, they have, uh, the swift kill traps.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:20

That'll sever or several, several Wow.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:23

Sever the spinal cord.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:24

You know what I'm trying to say?

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:25

Here's a lot of words.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:27

Um, versus the box trap, the humane trap.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:30

And so if it's an inhumane trap, I would investigate it, um, because you could hold

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:36

him liable for the cruelty to the dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:39

Um, absolutely.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:40

Like without question, if he put out, and we know he put out the trap, uh,

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:45

he could be responsible for the vet bills, et cetera, with in, in regard,

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:51

you know, the ticket itself of being, uh, of having animal cruelty too.

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:55

So that's a whole nother

Dan Ettinger: 00:13:56

subject.

DrG: 00:13:57

That's what we need to, because honestly, quite honestly, I mean, it's the

DrG: 00:14:00

first time that I have been involved in a case like this, so I don't know what the,

DrG: 00:14:05

what the laws are regarding those traps.

DrG: 00:14:07

Personally, I feel that they're inhumane because it's just inhumane to mame any

DrG: 00:14:12

kind of animal for whatever reason.

DrG: 00:14:14

Yeah.

DrG: 00:14:14

Right.

DrG: 00:14:14

So, um, okay.

DrG: 00:14:16

Yeah, they're, they're coming in and they're digging holes in your yard or

DrG: 00:14:20

whatever that, that's no reason to just.

DrG: 00:14:23

Be cruel to an animal that way.

DrG: 00:14:26

There are, there are better ways of dealing with it.

DrG: 00:14:28

, but yeah, you know, it's the, it's the fact of it sucks that the dog got

DrG: 00:14:33

into that situation and then it's a situation that potentially could have

DrG: 00:14:36

been avoided had the dog not been loose and, , without the owners at that time.

Dan Ettinger: 00:14:42

Absolutely.

Dan Ettinger: 00:14:42

And I think that, I mean, it comes back to like, How we, I

Dan Ettinger: 00:14:48

think, how we like value it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:14:50

And the, the one thing I always questioned, like I kind of gave that

Dan Ettinger: 00:14:54

sigh there, um, is why do people do it?

Dan Ettinger: 00:14:59

So I'll give an example.

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:01

Before I even got in this industry, um, my dog at the time, his name was Dirt Dog and

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:06

great dog, but bad dog at the same time.

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:08

And so, I would find remote areas and I, I really didn't even know.

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:12

I was just ignorant.

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:13

And they say ignorance of the law is no excuse, but I was ignorant.

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:16

I would find open fields, no one's around late at night or whatever, and,

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:20

and we would go and just romp around.

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:21

He would play fetch or whatever it was.

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:24

And I mean, he was a good dog, but at the same time, it's like,

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:27

that's still irresponsible cuz it's not, um, not, you know, it's just

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:32

not the right way to go about it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:15:33

You know, like find a dog, park, or run, or bike, et cetera.

DrG: 00:15:39

and along those lines, I mean, I personally, I have had a shepherd

DrG: 00:15:42

and a dane mutt and a dane, and where I live, I could not have a fence.

DrG: 00:15:49

Okay?

DrG: 00:15:49

And I do not believe in shocking my dogs, right?

DrG: 00:15:51

So I will never put an electric collar on my dogs.

DrG: 00:15:54

So my dogs, I taught 'em kind of what the, what the yard was.

DrG: 00:15:59

But whenever they were outside, we were outside with them so that we

DrG: 00:16:03

could, we could kind of monitor it.

DrG: 00:16:05

So, In, in essence.

DrG: 00:16:07

I mean, it is, it's not the same as having them outside on a leash.

DrG: 00:16:11

Mm-hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:14

Absolutely.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:14

And, you know, I, I think it's important that we just, um, Well for

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:19

us, especially like animal control, that field is doing that education,

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:23

really getting in the community, letting them know that there are leash laws.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:27

Some communities, it's, it's cool, like you'll drive through the community

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:30

and you'll see a street sign that says like, well, not a street sign,

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:34

but like the, you know, the, the like rectangle ones that are like pretty big.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:40

It'll say like, Animals must be on leash, not just the ones you see at

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:44

the school, but like they'll have, like, you must license your pet.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:47

Mm-hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:47

That type of stuff.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:48

So I think it's, um, I think it's good that we educate and

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:51

get out there and, and, and try to teach that in the community.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:54

You know, you have people that are just so ignorant.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:57

Um, I think it's the right way to say it, where they just don't care.

Dan Ettinger: 00:16:59

They're just like, you know what?

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:01

You can write me a, a ticket.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:03

Uh, I want to exercise my dog where I want to exercise my dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:07

. DrG: Well, and I mean, dogs are, you

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:11

kids that you can tell 'em however many times you wanna tell 'em, and they're just

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:14

not going to to understand, especially in the heat of the moment, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:17

Squirrel, uh, gone.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:20

So you can't, it doesn't matter how many voice commands your dog knows.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:25

Uh, many dogs, if they are already in, in progress of pursuing something, they're

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:30

not gonna stop and, and listen to you.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:33

Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:34

So, all right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:35

I did some research while we were talking.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:37

That's what we call multitasking, and it's called rule 15 .0.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:41

1, 31 15 through or dash zero nine, hunting and trapping

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:47

regulations for fur bearing animals.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:49

So that's an interesting title.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:51

And then if you go to section seven, it reads foothold traps.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:57

It was a foothold trap, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:58

Yes.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:59

Yep.

Dan Ettinger: 00:17:59

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:00

It shall be unlawful for any person to set, use or maintain a foothold

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:04

trap on land for the purpose of taking a wild animal that has an inside

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:10

diameter jaw spread greater than five and three eighth inches, except

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:15

foothold traps with a jaw spread.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:18

Not larger than six inches may be utilized when they meet the following.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:23

The jaws have a minimum of five to six inch gripping surface.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:27

Each trap has a minimum of, of three swivel points.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:30

It's interesting that they have , the yeah width of the actual foothold trap.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:35

It shall be unlawful for any person to set, use or maintain a foothold trap.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:40

Submerged in the water.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:41

For the purpose of taking a wild animal that has an inside diameter jaw spread

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:46

greater than eight and one quarter of an inch, it shall be unlawful for any

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:50

person to set use, maintain any foothold trap on land or water for the purpose of

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:54

taking a wild animal that is not covered.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:57

It shall be unlawful for any person to set use.

Dan Ettinger: 00:18:59

Maintain a foot encapsulating trap that has an opening that is greater than two

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:04

inches in diameter or two inches along.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:08

Any one side, and it shall be unlawful to set a foothold or foot

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:13

encapsulating trap on land that has less than two swiveling points.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:18

So there's the law, state law.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:20

Now, there could be in your town, there could be a local ordinance too.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:24

That may also be more, uh, I would say more restrictive than that state law.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:32

Strict.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:33

Yep.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:33

Right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:33

Mm-hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:34

Yep.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:34

Absolutely.

. DrG: 00:19:36

Well, that was the first question that I asked was if they had a

. DrG: 00:19:38

picture of the trap, if they knew what exactly the trap was and they did not.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:43

So, yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:44

I mean, that's important they can get.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:45

Mm-hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:46

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:46

Hopefully they can.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:47

I mean, at the end of the day, here's the thing, and, and I've really, Dr.

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:49

G I really kind of changed my approach in this profession over the last,

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:54

you know, 10 years, 13 years I've been doing it is like, There are

Dan Ettinger: 00:19:58

times I definitely wanna make sure we hold people accountable, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:01

Like that is no doubt a goal of mine, but if we help the animal, I'm okay with that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:06

Like if that's mm-hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:07

If that's the way that it has to go down, I'm okay with that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:10

I'm, I'm happy to just know that Okay, it might not have worked out and we

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:15

might not have gotten the, the suspect.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:19

But at the end of the day, did we help the animal?

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:20

And you know, I've spent countless hours on trying to

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:23

find suspects and it, it's tough.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:25

It really wears on you.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:26

And so, I mean, for me, just, um, you know, being able to, uh, being

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:31

able to help an that animal is, is probably the, the i the most, uh,

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:38

I would say like motivating factor.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:39

If we can get the bad guy even better, but let's get puppy or

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:43

kitty or whatever animal it is and um, get it into a better situation.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:48

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:20:48

And that

DrG: 00:20:48

was the kind of good, good thing that came about is that, you know,

DrG: 00:20:52

these, these individuals could not afford to have surgery on the dog.

DrG: 00:20:56

Uh, but thankfully they were able to reach out to a group that works with us.

DrG: 00:21:02

, that group, contacted us, and then we were able to do the surgery, uh,

DrG: 00:21:06

and it was covered by donations.

DrG: 00:21:07

So at the end of the day, the dog is doing really well.

DrG: 00:21:10

I mean, it's three legged now.

DrG: 00:21:12

But it's, it's alive.

DrG: 00:21:14

I love,

Dan Ettinger: 00:21:14

I love, I love three, three legged dogs.

Dan Ettinger: 00:21:17

I think they're so cute.

Dan Ettinger: 00:21:18

I really do.

Dan Ettinger: 00:21:19

Yeah.

DrG: 00:21:20

No, but you know, she's alive and she is hopefully, you know, they've

DrG: 00:21:24

learned better than to, to let her roam because clearly she is, she likes to

DrG: 00:21:28

explore and she's going to go out roaming.

DrG: 00:21:31

Uh, and then, yeah, if we can educate, even if we can educate the neighbor

DrG: 00:21:35

into why he should not have those things, and that would be a win as well.

Dan Ettinger: 00:21:40

Absolutely.

DrG: 00:21:41

Yeah.

DrG: 00:21:41

So, um, I was looking because one of the things that, that sparked this

DrG: 00:21:47

on for me was that one of my friends shared on social media about, uh, a

DrG: 00:21:53

man that shot a dog, an elderly dog.

DrG: 00:21:57

I believe the dog was 12 years old and the dog belonged to an autistic

DrG: 00:22:00

child, and this was in Indianapolis.

DrG: 00:22:02

This just happened a week ago.

DrG: 00:22:04

And there was, uh, a lot of concern because the dog was outside of the

DrG: 00:22:08

house in the front yard with the child, and the child was just playing.

DrG: 00:22:13

Um, and then this man was walking by on the sidewalk.

DrG: 00:22:17

And he alleges that the dog came at him and he felt threatened.

DrG: 00:22:22

So he shot the dog.

DrG: 00:22:23

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:22:23

And he killed the dog.

DrG: 00:22:24

Um, and so they found that he was not gonna have, there were not gonna be

DrG: 00:22:30

any charges against him because they actually, the owners of the dog were

DrG: 00:22:34

at fault because the dog was off leash.

DrG: 00:22:38

Um, so, you know, uh, it, it's a very heated thing on social media

DrG: 00:22:43

because everybody is finding fault on the man that shot the dog.

DrG: 00:22:48

Um, but the, the law said that the family of the dog actually was the one at fault.

Dan Ettinger: 00:22:55

And as I look over the case, there's no charges.

Dan Ettinger: 00:22:59

Um mm-hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:01

And I think it's, it's an unfortunate scenario, right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:06

Um, Everything you see, the dog looks like a, a good dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:11

And here's the thing is like people are afraid of dogs.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:15

I think we in our profession forget that at times.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:18

And I talk about this a lot when I, you know, teach classes on, um, this

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:23

exact thing, shooting dogs, police officer, shooting dogs, et cetera.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:27

And I think like, We don't know the history of people.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:29

They may have been attacked by a dog they may have grew up in, uh, in

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:34

an area where dogs were aggressive.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:35

And, you know, I, I'm watching the dog approach, the guy now with, you know,

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:40

the body language is loose tails, wagon.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:42

It's not high.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:43

Um, and so does he know that?

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:46

Does the party know the, the shooter know how to read and understand body language?

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:52

Do I agree and think that we should shoot a dog?

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:55

I don't.

Dan Ettinger: 00:23:56

I'll tell you what, and cops and, and I have this conversation with cops all the

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:00

time because they're trained differently.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:02

Um, I've, you know, I've handled thousands of dogs in my career, and

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:07

I've never been in a situation where I was like, whew, I wish I had a gun.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:10

Right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:10

Like, it's never, it's never come up, and I cannot say that as.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:16

Everyone's truth because I'm sure there have been situations for animal

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:19

control officers where they're like, man, I really wish I had a firearm

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:23

in this scenario, and so maybe I just haven't been in that scenario, so

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:26

I'm not discrediting that feeling.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:28

What I will say though is the majority of aggression can be, I'm, I don't even

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:35

use catch poles that often anymore.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:36

Right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:37

Uh, because you learn.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:39

Certain ways that you can really interact with these dogs to keep yourself

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:44

safe and keep the community safe.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:46

And so at the end of the day, like this was an unfortunate situation

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:51

that could have been avoided by the dog just being on a leash.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:55

Um, or maybe we educate.

Dan Ettinger: 00:24:58

Our community a little bit better or, or like, do we really, like,

Dan Ettinger: 00:25:03

this country likes its gun?

Dan Ettinger: 00:25:05

So I'm just saying like, there's that too.

Dan Ettinger: 00:25:07

Um, so like, does he need to walk around the neighborhood with a gun and was

Dan Ettinger: 00:25:11

he, you know, was he looking to use it or did he really feel threatened?

Dan Ettinger: 00:25:16

So,

DrG: 00:25:17

yeah.

DrG: 00:25:18

And, and yeah.

DrG: 00:25:19

To, to your point, it's like you, a lot of people don't know how to read dogs.

DrG: 00:25:24

I mean, even in, in.

DrG: 00:25:25

Animal settings.

DrG: 00:25:26

There are people that don't know really how to read dogs.

DrG: 00:25:29

That's why some people get bit by a dog that they're not aware that

DrG: 00:25:33

the dog is being aggressive or.

DrG: 00:25:35

You know, it's, the ears are down or whatever it, maybe it's

DrG: 00:25:38

wagging its tail, but it's just showing you signs that it's scared.

DrG: 00:25:41

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:25:41

And it still may, may attack, the dog may have been barking just

DrG: 00:25:46

as a way of saying hello and this person is not able to read it.

DrG: 00:25:50

And as the dog is approaching him and barking, the guy is feeling

DrG: 00:25:52

that the dog dog's being aggressive.

DrG: 00:25:55

And, and where do you draw that line up?

DrG: 00:25:58

Like, I think that this dog is going to injure me.

DrG: 00:26:02

Uh, not that, not that somebody should shoot a dog, but, but same thing, like

DrG: 00:26:06

I don't see a reason why I would ever want need to shoot a dog, but where is

DrG: 00:26:11

that person's state of mind thinking?

DrG: 00:26:13

This dog, if I don't act immediately, I may not have the, the opportunity to act

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:19

and my dog's that, that way in some aspects, like, he'll, he'll

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:22

walk up to people barking, but it's like the, Hey, pet me or You got food.

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:27

Like, he's not, truthfully, he's not aggressive.

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:29

I've never seen my dog act.

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:31

Aggressive towards anyone.

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:33

Um, and so it's just an interesting thing.

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:35

It doesn't mean that that person doesn't feel threatened.

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:39

And so it's my responsibility to either make sure I'm present and

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:43

yelling, like, Hey, he's okay.

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:44

Here I come, like, don't shoot him.

Dan Ettinger: 00:26:46

Um, but in the end, probably best to have him on a, on a leash truthfully.

. DrG: 00:26:51

I was looking at another case that happened in Chicago, and this

. DrG: 00:26:55

was back in I believe, February.

. DrG: 00:26:57

Um, Yeah.

. DrG: 00:26:58

February 8th, and it was a lady that was walking her two dogs off leash and

. DrG: 00:27:04

she got into a verbal argument with a man and then the man walked away

. DrG: 00:27:08

from her and went into an alley and the dogs followed him into that alley.

. DrG: 00:27:13

And the, uh, the man shot the dogs.

. DrG: 00:27:16

One of the dogs died and then the other dog was, was taken to a hospital and I

. DrG: 00:27:21

believe that that other dog survived.

. DrG: 00:27:23

But you know, the complaint again was he shot my dogs for no reason.

. DrG: 00:27:27

Well, You're walking your dogs off leash.

. DrG: 00:27:30

Your dogs are, especially anybody that has dogs, and whether they're big dogs or

. DrG: 00:27:35

little dogs, if you get into, if you get upset, your dogs sense that and they're

. DrG: 00:27:39

going to, to know that, that you're upset.

. DrG: 00:27:42

So if you're having an argument with somebody, uh, Um, even if you're not

. DrG: 00:27:46

really arguing or fighting, if you are just worked up, your dogs are not gonna

. DrG: 00:27:50

understand what's happening, uh, which is maybe what happened in this case.

. DrG: 00:27:55

And then the man walks away and then the dogs are kind

. DrG: 00:27:57

of like protecting the owner.

. DrG: 00:27:58

Mm-hmm.

. DrG: 00:27:59

And these animals got shot because somebody didn't have them on a leash.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:05

There's a, a case study that I use quite often in the trainings

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:08

that I do, and it was a, a case out of Arlington, Texas, and, and you may

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:13

be familiar with it, you may, may not.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:15

Some of our listeners may be, and it was in August of 2019, officer

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:21

Ravinder Singh for the Arlington Police Department was responding to.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:25

A woman that was passed out in this like grassy area kind of behind, oh, it's not

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:30

like an alley, but it's like a walkway.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:31

You can see it's kinda like a, there's like a wooden six foot fence

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:35

on your left hand side, and then there's a sidewalk and then kind of

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:38

some grass on the right hand side.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:40

And you hear him kind of walk up like, ma'am, ma'am, you okay?

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:46

And two seconds, three seconds later, the dog starts barking.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:51

That was with the woman.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:52

And, um, Starts charging him.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:55

And he is like, ma'am, get your dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:57

Get your dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:28:58

And the dog ke you know, he has what I like to call reactionary gap.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:01

So he has a good 15, 20 seconds to make a decision.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:05

Uh, his decision was to open fire.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:08

He does that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:09

He misses the dog, it ricochets and kills Margarita Brooks hits her.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:14

The, the bullet hits her in the chest and she dies, uh, right there.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:18

And so, um, it, it, it is just a classic.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:24

Example of why a gun wasn't necessary in that situation, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:29

Like to me, most situations, especially involving dogs, Do not need a firearm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:35

Now, people may disagree and that's fine.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:38

Um, you're entitled to your opinion.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:39

I'll just say this, that like, based on my training and experience, there

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:43

has not been, and I don't know if I'll ever be in a situation where

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:46

I feel like I need to shoot a dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:48

I'm not saying I haven't researched and found justified shootings.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:52

I will say the majority of them.

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:55

Are not justified, the majority of them are poor decisions made based

Dan Ettinger: 00:29:59

off of, uh, emotion in that situation, thinking that that person was gonna

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:03

get injured or, or whatever it may be.

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:05

Look, most bites in general are our lower level bites, and I don't know if

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:10

you've ever talked about the Doctor Ian Dunbar Bite scale on your podcast, but.

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:15

Um, we've had 'em on ours, so you can go back and check that out.

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:18

But I will say like, um, the bite scale goes one through six, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:23

One being no real, uh, wound at all, and six being death.

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:27

The majority of bites that are recorded and, you know, treated in this is on

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:33

document through the CDC is a level three.

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:35

It's a, it's really a minor bite.

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:37

Like it's not, it's not something that's gonna, like, you're not gonna

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:40

die from a dog bite unless like, Unless maybe you're, you know, somebody that's

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:46

dealing with like an autoimmune issue or you have like an infection, is, is

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:50

my point, like the likelihood and no, there's about 30 to 40 deaths by dogs

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:56

to humans in this country per year.

Dan Ettinger: 00:30:59

It's pretty rare.

Dan Ettinger: 00:31:00

So, um, I just think that cops could use different methods, uh,

Dan Ettinger: 00:31:05

when dealing with, uh, a dog.

DrG: 00:31:08

I know that there's a lot of, uh, officers, and I believe that you

DrG: 00:31:12

mentioned that you have done that, like in teaching police officers how

DrG: 00:31:17

to react when they, when they approach the situation when there are dogs.

DrG: 00:31:22

I.

DrG: 00:31:22

Because I, I had a situation when, well, not personally, but a friend of mine,

DrG: 00:31:27

her dog was killed by a police officer because some, they just opened the door.

DrG: 00:31:31

The dog came out, dog, very friendly, but very large Rottweiler.

DrG: 00:31:34

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:31:35

And he approached the police officers probably looking for somebody to pet him.

DrG: 00:31:39

And they were concerned.

DrG: 00:31:41

They didn't know any better, and their first instinct was

DrG: 00:31:43

to shoot and kill this dog.

DrG: 00:31:45

Yeah.

DrG: 00:31:45

Um, so, so important for police officers to, to learn how to, how

DrG: 00:31:51

to approach the situations so that the first thing that they don't that

DrG: 00:31:55

comes to mind is not Get your gun.

DrG: 00:31:57

And I'll shoot the dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:31:58

And I, I would imagine no cop wants to shoot a dog like a, well,

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:02

I say that and I, I laugh a little bit.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:05

There's a case, I gotta remember this case.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:07

So as I try to recall it, um, basically there was a panic alarm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:13

Going off and inside the house.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:16

So this person had, you know, a home security system and it kept going off.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:22

Um, I wanna say it was in Texas somewhere.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:26

And the police go, like anytime, uh, they go and they want to do a welfare check

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:33

to make sure like, someone's not breaking in the house or this, um, you know, this.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:38

Um, there's no other crimes going on.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:41

And so he walks up to the gate, the cop gets out of his vehicle if there's like a

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:45

40 minute video of the body cam footage, uh, and you can, and this is where I'm

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:50

going to, but before I'll get, before I get there, let me kinda lay it out.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:54

Um, so he, he pulls, the cop pulls up to the scene.

Dan Ettinger: 00:32:58

There's a, you know, chain link fence outside and.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:03

Um, he opens the gate and between the gate and the front door of the,

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:08

the home, there's probably a good 50 feet, maybe, maybe even a little

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:15

longer, like it was a long walk, and the cop , never, like whistles for

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:19

a dog or does anything like that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:21

He basically starts walking to the home as he gets closer to the home.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:25

Um, he walks up onto this little wooden porch, and then the

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:28

dog is like, slow trotting Dr.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:31

G he's not like running aggressive and he is like, oh, woo woo.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:36

Right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:36

He's not like, there's just no aggression behind it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:38

And he's like, oh, don't be mean doggy.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:41

Don't be vicious.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:42

Don't be vicious.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:43

So he like knocked this, he already knocked on the door and he's now saying

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:47

it to the guy, oh, doggy, don't do it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:49

Don't do it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:49

Doggy.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:49

Stop it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:50

And then he just shoots it like from at least 10 feet away.

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:54

And the owner then opens the door, like, uh, the, what did they say?

Dan Ettinger: 00:33:58

The he, the O the guy opens the door and the cops are like,

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:01

Did you hit the panic alarm?

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:02

And he is like, yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:03

He's like, I called you guys to cancel or whatever.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:05

And he's like, did you just shoot my dog?

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:06

And the dog is laying there in agony for minutes, like a long time.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:12

And then I, my point of that, when I said that a minute ago where I'm like, um, I.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:18

Cops don't wanna shoot dogs.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:19

Well, , in this body camera footage of like 45 minutes, he gets on the, on

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:24

the air and he is like talking to the detective, or he's on his cell phone

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:27

talking to the detective who has to come out and handle it because, , it, uh, was

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:32

a fire, you know, a firearm situation.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:34

And he's like, yeah, I got another one.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:36

Like, he, it's like he was proud of the fact that he shot a dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:38

So, uh, it is just not, not the way that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:43

Our law enforcement should be seen by the community and just how they

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:46

shouldn't be acting that way, period.

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:47

So it's, I'm, I'm sure the majority of police officers don't

Dan Ettinger: 00:34:51

actually want to shoot a dog.

. DrG: 00:34:53

I would hope not, especially since canines are so helpful

. DrG: 00:34:56

to police departments, right.

. DrG: 00:34:58

Whether they're drug dogs or bomb dogs.

. DrG: 00:35:01

So you would think that they would see the, the, the intelligence that

. DrG: 00:35:04

they have and just, uh, you know that they are beings that they're., the

. DrG: 00:35:09

importance of them in, in general.

. DrG: 00:35:11

Um, I, couple of years ago I was at a lecture by Melinda,

. DrG: 00:35:15

Merck, and she was mm-hmm.

. DrG: 00:35:16

Discussing a case of, uh, police shooting and on a dog and two dogs.

. DrG: 00:35:24

And the officer had said that the dogs had charged him and

. DrG: 00:35:27

that's why he shot the dogs.

. DrG: 00:35:29

And it was a very interesting forensic case because it was basically

. DrG: 00:35:32

trying to determine if the story of the police officer was correct.

. DrG: 00:35:36

Sure.

. DrG: 00:35:36

And it was determined that the dogs were actually running away from the officer

. DrG: 00:35:41

when he was shot, when the dog was shot.

. DrG: 00:35:43

And there was concern about not just the fact that the dogs were shot.

. DrG: 00:35:47

Running away, but the dogs run away, come back to the house and are kind

. DrG: 00:35:52

of circling around and they lay down and die in front of the house.

. DrG: 00:35:56

Oh, wow.

. DrG: 00:35:56

Like they bleed to death because not only the fact that they shot the

. DrG: 00:35:59

dogs, but then they didn't, uh, offer them any, any assistance, any aid.

. DrG: 00:36:04

Um Oh, so,

Dan Ettinger: 00:36:06

yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:36:07

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:36:07

It's not surprising in, in some aspects.

Dan Ettinger: 00:36:10

I mean, animals are still seen as, Whether they're working or they're not necessarily

Dan Ettinger: 00:36:16

part of the family in, in some people's perspective as they may be in others.

Dan Ettinger: 00:36:20

Right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:36:20

So I think, I think that's kind of a big, um, barrier that we have to

Dan Ettinger: 00:36:25

continue to grow and, and maybe overcome.

DrG: 00:36:28

in some, in some situations, again, you know, tho those are

DrG: 00:36:31

situations where the owner, there's nothing that they could have done.

DrG: 00:36:34

Their dog was in their yard, in their facility, in their house,

DrG: 00:36:37

and then somebody came in and somebody else was at fault.

DrG: 00:36:41

But yeah, the, they were all, you know, all these other cases, it just comes to

DrG: 00:36:46

the, the animal depends on the owner to protect them and part of that protection

DrG: 00:36:51

is protecting them from dangers.

DrG: 00:36:53

Sure.

DrG: 00:36:53

Um, And you know, that's kind of where these, these leash laws, even though to

DrG: 00:36:58

some people that may feel that they're keeping their dogs from being dogs,

DrG: 00:37:03

it's actually keeping their dogs alive.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:06

And I think that's really the, the main thing there is

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:10

like, what can we do to make sure that we keep our animals safe and

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:14

alive and like just wanting to have.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:17

Freedom or feel liberated.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:19

I love using that term.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:21

I'm so liberated because my dog comes back to me.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:24

I'm sorry, I shouldn't talk like that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:26

Like that's, truthfully, that's how like, I, I think people

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:30

feel, they're just like, right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:32

They're just, they just feel in a way that like, well, it's just, you know, we as

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:38

humans, we, um, paint them from wolves.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:42

So like we have the ability to.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:45

I don't know, like let 'em off leash and then they come back to us.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:48

Uh, it's just an interesting concept why people would, would

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:51

wanna do that, but to each their own, I just want to do what's best.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:54

Um, at the end of the day for my.

Dan Ettinger: 00:37:57

My guy who's over there laid out on my bed like it's his

Dan Ettinger: 00:38:02

and no, I won't have any room.

Dan Ettinger: 00:38:04

So there's that

DrG: 00:38:05

because, because it is his and he just lets you kinda

DrG: 00:38:08

crash there every now and then.

DrG: 00:38:10

Yeah,

Dan Ettinger: 00:38:10

that's so true.

Dan Ettinger: 00:38:11

So flipping

DrG: 00:38:12

true.

DrG: 00:38:13

No, that's, that's, that's even the, the issue that I have with,

DrG: 00:38:16

for instance, like invisible fences.

DrG: 00:38:17

Like I understand the.

DrG: 00:38:20

, why people go towards them.

DrG: 00:38:22

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:38:22

Because they want their dogs to be able to roam their yard, but mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:38:25

I have treated so many dogs that have jumped the fence

DrG: 00:38:29

and had gotten hit by cars.

DrG: 00:38:30

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:38:31

Or have gotten into fights.

DrG: 00:38:32

And the other problem is that invisible fences, for instance, don't keep

DrG: 00:38:35

other dogs from coming into your yard.

DrG: 00:38:37

Exactly.

DrG: 00:38:38

So, you know, so your dog is okay.

DrG: 00:38:40

Your, your dog respects the fence and it's staying in your yard.

DrG: 00:38:43

Well, it doesn't keep.

DrG: 00:38:45

Another dog from coming in and beating the crap outta your dog and then running away.

DrG: 00:38:49

So there's just something to be said about just not leaving your dogs

DrG: 00:38:54

unattended just because of lack of time.

DrG: 00:38:58

Laziness.

DrG: 00:38:59

I just don't wanna be bothered by it.

DrG: 00:39:00

Like, you know, we get a, we get an animal, we are getting

DrG: 00:39:03

a responsibility, and it's our responsibility to take care of them.

DrG: 00:39:06

Just like we wouldn't just send our kid out to the, to the yard, or,

DrG: 00:39:10

you know, when they're young and unable to take care of themselves.

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:13

Totally.

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:14

A friend of mine, uh, who's been in this industry for a very long time,

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:18

he had a case, it's a few years ago, it's not even that long ago.

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:21

He had a case in the, basically the complaint was the, it was a leash law

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:27

violation, and he ended up writing a ticket and the defendant argued

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:32

it and took it all away into court.

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:34

And they were like, well, my dog was on its own property, or, you know,

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:40

And it had the electric fence, but it, it either the battery either

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:44

died or the dog just decided to run through it and was then running the

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:48

neighborhood right at that point.

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:49

And so the complainant tried to argue, well, but my dog

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:53

was contained in the yard.

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:54

And, and so he, he ended up writing the ticket and then the um, The, they went

Dan Ettinger: 00:39:59

to court and the, the ticket's stuck.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:01

So, um, it just goes to show that like even our justice system's like, nah,

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:05

they're not that reliable in that aspect.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:08

Like if you want your dog to roam the yard, just put a fence up.

DrG: 00:40:11

So what are the kind of things that can happen for

DrG: 00:40:12

people for violating leash laws?

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:15

Well, it's gonna depend per.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:18

Per, per county, per city, right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:21

Uh, for the most part.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:22

Uh, you'll have a, I think most officers like to do warnings first.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:26

They, they like to just say, Hey, here's the leash law.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:28

Your dog can't be off leash.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:29

You can't be running, letting it run the neighborhood.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:31

And I also think officers have probably different views like, Throwing a

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:36

tennis ball to a dog in an open field leash, law violation versus

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:41

a dog cruising a neighborhood are kind of two different things, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:45

And so writing a ticket probably can range anywhere from like $25 to probably

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:50

$200 depending on where you are.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:53

In the country, I would imagine certain cities have higher,

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:56

higher fines than others.

Dan Ettinger: 00:40:58

So typically it's just a fine that you like, kind of like a speeding

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:00

ticket where you have to pay a fine and what, what you, what you typically

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:04

see is these fines can then escalate.

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:07

Uh, so then if you get a second violation within like, let's say 12

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:10

months, that fine may go up from whether it was, let's say it was $25 and now

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:15

it goes up to 50, and then the third violation may be a hundred dollars.

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:19

Before sending them to court for a, a summons.

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:23

Now some animal control agencies may only have summons, so then you may have

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:29

to go in front of a magistrate or a judge on your first violation, which

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:33

in theory is a misdemeanor, uh, which to me is just a little harsh for a

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:37

lease law violation, especially if all the dog did was just like run around.

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:41

Um, but it's, you know, it's.

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:43

It's different everywhere we go.

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:44

Uh, the consistency in our profession is not.

Dan Ettinger: 00:41:47

Um, and so I, I think it's just kind of all over the place in, in some aspects.

DrG: 00:41:52

What are the kind of issues that people can have if their off

DrG: 00:41:56

leash dog runs out of the house or anything like that and it injures

DrG: 00:42:00

another animal, or it injures a person?

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:03

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:03

And so that you're gonna look at more so of like, what, there's a

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:07

couple different ways to look at it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:08

It could be considered like a potentially dangerous animal, um,

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:12

which, you know, typically comes with some sort of court ordered,

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:18

, court ordered like responsibility.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:20

So you might have to walk your dog on a leash.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:22

No greater than six feet has to wear a muzzle when in the yard.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:26

It has to be inside of an enclosure.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:28

And separated by two fences.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:30

So the enclosure then has to be in an fenced yard, if that makes sense.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:34

Right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:34

So they have to have like two fences.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:36

Um, so that could be one of it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:38

There, there could be, you know, civil liability too, that someone could get

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:41

sued for any damages caused by the dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:44

Uh, if the dog causes, causes property damage to, it's

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:47

not something we mentioned.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:49

Uh, we've had situations where officers have.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:52

Ticketed people for a dog causing damage to a vehicle

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:55

after it's been hit and killed.

Dan Ettinger: 00:42:57

Um, because they are, you know, trying to, I guess, do the right

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:01

thing and get restitution for the person driving the car.

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:04

Um, it seems a little harsh, but at the end of the day, like it might be the right

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:08

thing to do if, you know, there's no other way to get restitution for the damages.

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:13

Um, and then sometimes, I mean, the animals can be taken away

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:16

and put on, you know, court holds, uh, until the case is, is.

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:20

It was final.

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:21

And I will say that like, you know, most of those dangerous dog cases happened

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:25

because that dog was at large and got out and killed another dog or a cat

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:30

or a chicken, or injured a person that was jogging by something like that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:35

So, um, it's really common unfortunately, that things like that happen and

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:39

they're avoidable for the most part.

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:41

Accidents do happen, but they are avoidable.

DrG: 00:43:43

And rare as it may be, like what does it take for like, The court sy

DrG: 00:43:48

or the system to decide that an animal needs to be destroyed because it's.

DrG: 00:43:53

You know, it got loose and it's a danger to society.

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:56

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:43:56

And, and I would, I guess we'll just kind of preface, destroyed is

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:00

very commonly used in ordinances, which equals euthanasia.

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:05

Um, it just kind of shows, um, the terminology that we used

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:09

for a long time in, in writings, you know, our statutes and city

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:13

ordinances, but, uh, to euthanasia, you know, it depends, uh, some.

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:18

Some districts or jurisdictions don't allow dangerous

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:21

animals in their communities.

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:23

And so if the dog is deemed dangerous and that person can't place it in like

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:30

another area, it may be, you know, the only outcome there is the cer it, you

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:35

know, it may be a, I hate to use the word awarded, um, to the city or the county,

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:40

but it may be like, You know, the, Hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:44

The property then may be handed over to the county and then they can make

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:48

the ultimate decision to, to euthanize.

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:50

And, and I will say the caveat for me is like, uh, though, you know, there's a

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:55

movement of trying to be no kill by 2025.

Dan Ettinger: 00:44:58

And I'm not trying to like, um, throw shade as the cool kids say, but you know,

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:05

. Is 10% of the dogs in the United States

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:11

in the United States would be my question.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:13

And if the answer is no, then that number is is obviously not right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:18

And so I don't want to kill anything.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:20

And I joke around even though I'm serious.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:22

It's like I'm vegan, so I don't even kill animals for food.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:27

Um, and so why would I want to euthanize a dog?

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:29

But at the end of the day, I think our public safety is utmost first.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:34

You know, the most important thing.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:35

And so if that means a dog has to be put, put down to make our

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:39

streets and our community safer, then that's what needs to happen.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:42

And so, um, it can be, you know, it can be something like a dog

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:47

kills another animal that can, that can be a euthanasia candidate.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:51

It could be a, a serious bite.

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:53

Anything like above a four, a four or above, I should say, where, you know, it

Dan Ettinger: 00:45:57

really causes a significant body injury.

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:01

Um, that's, that's something we really have to think about.

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:04

And not that I'm saying like it's an automatic and every dog that does

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:08

X, y, or Z should be euthanized.

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:09

But I think we should really look at 'em on a case by case scenario and

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:12

say like, okay, like this happened.

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:15

Here was the circumstances and our community would probably be

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:18

safer if we put this animal down.

DrG: 00:46:21

Yeah, I think that, you know, it, I, I understand that there are triggers

DrG: 00:46:26

that can make a dog act aggressively, but then how can you completely eliminate said

DrG: 00:46:32

triggers in, in some situations, right?

DrG: 00:46:35

So you can have

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:35

them live on a, in a sanctuary and like some remote

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:38

area where no one else is around,

DrG: 00:46:41

right in, in the, in the place that doesn't exist.

DrG: 00:46:44

Yeah, that place and then just live there, like a, and, and to a point live

DrG: 00:46:48

there like a prisoner, realistically

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:51

for, well, we talk.

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:52

So my daughter, who's 11, did a, and shout out Lily, and she'll probably

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:58

never hear this, but shout out Lily.

Dan Ettinger: 00:46:59

That's what we do.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:00

Um, you better listen.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:01

Lily.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:01

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:01

Lily.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:02

Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:04

I love you, Lily.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:05

Okay.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:06

Back to the, back to the podcast.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:07

But, um, she was, she did a project on zoos this year in fifth grade.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:13

And, Um, she was, she was, she just came up with it on her

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:17

own, like that kid's not vegan.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:18

I'm vegan.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:19

And, um, she came up with a term, and it's called zoo.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:25

You probably know this term, Dr.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:26

G.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:27

It's um, when, when zoo animals go crazy.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:29

It's called zoo philia, I think.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:31

No, that's, that's something else.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:32

Nope.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:33

No, we're not talking about that right now.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:34

That's all.

DrG: 00:47:37

Yeah, that's another episode.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:40

I'm sorry.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:41

Uh, uh for those that know.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:43

No, that was, um, there's a term for it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:45

It's like, uh, zoocosis, thank you, Google.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:48

It's called zoocosis.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:49

And so the whole thought process behind zoocosis is these, these animals are taken

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:54

out of their natural habitats and then they live in these areas that they can't.

Dan Ettinger: 00:47:59

Exhibit normal behaviors, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:01

So they, they create these patterns of it's craziness, whether they spin

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:05

in circles or they gnaw at their skin, or they, you know, they, they

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:10

run back and forth or they, um, they're just neurotic in some aspects.

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:14

And I think we have that in some aspects in our shelter animals, uh, because

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:17

that is not a natural setting for them, and we don't have the time and space.

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:20

And so back to your point, like, is it fair to that

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:24

animal to live in that setting?

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:26

For the rest of its life, or do we just, you know, make the decision, which

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:32

ultimately costs the shelter less money, um, to, to, you know, to euthanize it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:37

And, uh, I don't know if we, we have time to talk about death, but

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:40

that's a whole nother conversation.

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:42

And, uh, I think we humanize a lot of things when we make decisions.

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:46

That's just my personal opinion.

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:48

. Now,

DrG: 00:48:49

can dogs come off a dangerous list?

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:53

Not necessarily a, well, again, it's all gonna be,

Dan Ettinger: 00:48:58

uh, subject to where you are.

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:00

So every ordinance is gonna be different, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:02

Every state's statute is gonna be different.

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:05

I will say in.

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:08

Where I used to work in Denver specifically, I can talk to them.

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:11

Um, and even, uh, some other places that like once it's dangerous, it's dangerous.

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:15

Now if it's potentially dangerous, that may be different in an animal

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:19

without having further violations within, let's say an 18 or a 36

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:23

month period can then be removed from the potentially dangerous list.

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:27

But I've never.

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:28

To my knowledge, I've never heard of a dog being able to be removed from a

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:31

dangerous, but I, I would imagine based on how varied our laws are throughout

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:35

the country, that there's probably a, a city or a town that allows for,

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:40

for that, for a dangerous status.

Dan Ettinger: 00:49:42

I.

DrG: 00:49:43

As I understand in Ohio, uh, once it's deemed dangerous, once it has a

DrG: 00:49:47

dangerous dog license, it cannot come off being a dangerous dog license.

DrG: 00:49:51

And it kind of makes sense because again, it's a matter of triggers, right?

DrG: 00:49:54

So it's a matter of de determining what made it be

DrG: 00:49:58

into that, uh, deemed dangerous.

DrG: 00:50:00

Sure.

DrG: 00:50:01

Um, but.

Dan Ettinger: 00:50:03

It's probably not the right analogy, but like a sexual predator's

Dan Ettinger: 00:50:06

always gonna be a sexual predator.

Dan Ettinger: 00:50:08

Right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:50:09

They don't get to come off that list cuz they haven't done anything for five years.

Dan Ettinger: 00:50:12

So, yeah,

DrG: 00:50:14

no, it's about the circumstances or the situations.

DrG: 00:50:17

You know, it, it's not happening because, It's in the, in the right environment,

DrG: 00:50:22

which would be great for the dog, that it's in the right environment, that is

DrG: 00:50:24

not gonna trigger it to be aggressive.

DrG: 00:50:26

Mm-hmm.

DrG: 00:50:26

But then if something happens that changes it, you know, that that dog

DrG: 00:50:29

has the potential for, for being aggressive, for, for attacking.

DrG: 00:50:34

So absolutely.

DrG: 00:50:34

A lot of things that have to be taken into consideration before making

DrG: 00:50:37

decisions about placement and, um, rescuing and, and that kind of stuff.

Dan Ettinger: 00:50:42

All the things.

Dan Ettinger: 00:50:43

I agree a hundred percent.

DrG: 00:50:45

Well, cool.

DrG: 00:50:46

I mean, I think that this has been a really cool, uh, conversation as

DrG: 00:50:50

far as the importance of leash laws.

DrG: 00:50:51

I know that there's a lot of people that disagree with leash laws or that have

DrG: 00:50:54

these, uh, retractable leashes that the dog is walking, you know, three blocks

DrG: 00:50:59

away from them, and they think that, that it is okay, but understanding

DrG: 00:51:03

the, the safety and the importance and the reasoning behind it, and how can

DrG: 00:51:06

ultimately, literally save your dog's life is just gonna be the important thing.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:12

I'll give this last example before you wrap up

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:15

and I was, uh, just patrolling.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:18

It was a normal night.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:18

I got a call for a skittish dog that looked injured and I was able

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:23

to, to get there, get the dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:25

It was like a great Pyrenneese mix.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:27

And she, uh, had some blood and was limping and I believe

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:31

fractured, like front, front, right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:33

Right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:34

Um, what's this part called?

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:36

I'm asking her through Zoom.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:37

Carpus, thank you.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:38

The, the carpus, that area.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:40

Um, and so it's glad, I'm glad you're a veterinarian.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:44

Cause I totally forgot that.

DrG: 00:51:45

Was that a test I passed?

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:48

Um, and so I get the dog and I get her to the

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:51

Emergency Vet Clinic and I.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:55

End up finding the owner through a microchip, thankfully.

Dan Ettinger: 00:51:57

And the owner was, Hmm.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:00

You know, people are in shock.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:02

And that's something I have to remember.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:03

I'm pretty jaded, but I will say that the owner, um, was, was thankful

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:07

and like sad that he lost the dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:09

And, and I asked him, I was like, bro, what happened?

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:11

He was like, you know, we were just in the park and I was on my phone

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:14

and I looked up and she was gone.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:16

Simple as that.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:17

And granted, she was found almost two miles away from that park, right?

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:20

And so it just goes to show that simple moment of, you know, your dog, you think

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:25

everything's good, then you're swiping right on Tinder, or you're on Instagram,

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:29

or whatever the heck you kids do.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:31

TikTok, I don't know what y'all do anymore.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:33

And then you look up and your dog's gone.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:36

And now I got hit by a car.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:37

He was lucky it didn't die.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:38

And so I laid into him.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:39

I like to lay in PE into people in like a nice way of like, man, come on.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:43

You know, think bigger.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:44

Think bigger.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:45

Like this could have really been bad for you.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:48

Like your dog, like this could have gotten way worse.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:50

Now granted, she broke, uh, you know, her carpal, carpal carpus,

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:54

carpus, I think carpal cuz car, carpal tunnel, carpal tunnel's.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:57

Like that same area.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:58

Yes.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:59

All right.

Dan Ettinger: 00:52:59

So yes, it's exactly the same area.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:02

So, but my, my, um, my point is, uh, you know, it's just like, come on man.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:07

Do better, do better for your dog.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:08

And, uh, that's all you can do.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:10

I mean, I, I, uh, You know, I wanna to see people and their animals happy.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:15

So Yeah.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:16

And as

DrG: 00:53:17

we were getting close to 4th of July, you know, definitely not a time

DrG: 00:53:20

to have your dog off leash because

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:22

Not at all it, no.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:23

Yeah, I almost lost my dog last year on 4th of July on a harness.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:28

He almost slipped out cuz he was so scared.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:29

So I get it.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:30

Yeah.

DrG: 00:53:31

Yeah.

DrG: 00:53:32

So that, . Getting close to 4th of July.

DrG: 00:53:34

Keep your dogs safe.

DrG: 00:53:35

Don't take 'em outside.

DrG: 00:53:36

Don't take 'em into places.

DrG: 00:53:37

I mean, it doesn't matter how, how chill you think they are.

DrG: 00:53:41

It, once you start hearing the, that sound, it's just, to me it's a wrap.

DrG: 00:53:46

Yeah.

DrG: 00:53:46

Fight or flight.

DrG: 00:53:47

Yeah.

DrG: 00:53:48

Absolutely.

DrG: 00:53:50

Yeah.

DrG: 00:53:50

So thanks a lot for, for joining me and tell people how they

DrG: 00:53:54

can listen to your stuff, man.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:56

Absolutely.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:56

Thanks for having me.

Dan Ettinger: 00:53:57

And, uh, please join us at the Animal Control Report that's hosted

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:01

by , me and Ashley Bishop, a humane officer out of Missouri, Wisconsin.

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:06

I always call Missouri and Wisconsin the same place, even though they're not.

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:09

You can go to our website, keep it humane.com.

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:12

You can use AC report for 10% off of any item in our store.

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:16

So check that out.

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:17

Again, that is keep it humane.com.

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:20

AC report is your discount code and uh, we're on all the socials.

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:24

So the animal control report, you can find us there please, like, share,

Dan Ettinger: 00:54:28

follow, rate, all that good stuff.

DrG: 00:54:30

And we have a link to you guys on the, on our website, on Forensics

DrG: 00:54:34

Vet, and also on our uh, Facebook page.

DrG: 00:54:37

So again, thank you for joining me.

DrG: 00:54:40

This has been great.

DrG: 00:54:40

People.

DrG: 00:54:41

Keep your dogs leash, keep your dogs safe, your dogs depend on you.

DrG: 00:54:45

And thanks for listening and thanks for caring.