Episode 16

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Published on:

22nd Jun 2023

Large Scale Animal Cruelty Investigations with Shalimar Oliver

Do you know the do's and don'ts of large scale investigations? Are you looking to learn more about procedures or resources available to humane officers and officials investigating animal crimes?

Shalimar Oliver, Animal Crimes Manager from The Humane Society of the United States, joins us for a detailed discussion of what it takes to properly conduct an investigation as well as the things to avoid. Preparation is Key, and Shalimar does an excellent job painting a full picture.

This episode is recommended to anyone working in animal cruelty investigations, from veterinarians to animal control officers, humane societies, law enforcement and prosecutors.

Transcript
DrG:

Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

DrG:

This is your host, Dr.

DrG:

G.

DrG:

Our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan.

DrG:

We wanna give a shout out to one of our sponsors, KD Hearst

DrG:

with Don't F Up the Crime Scene.

DrG:

He was a guest with us, and this is kind of the kind of topic

DrG:

that he would be involved in.

DrG:

So shout out to him.

DrG:

You can find out information on his website, dfutcs.com.

DrG:

So today's guest is Shalimar Oliver.

DrG:

She is the Animal Crimes Manager at the Humane Society of the United

DrG:

States, and an awesome person.

DrG:

Welcome Shalimar, and thank you for joining me.

Shalimar Oliver:

Thank you for

DrG:

having me, Dr.

DrG:

G.

DrG:

So, how about you let people know who you are and what brought

DrG:

you to where you are today?

Shalimar Oliver:

Oh, yes.

Shalimar Oliver:

Okay.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, uh, let's see.

Shalimar Oliver:

I've been with the Humane Society of the United States for, , almost six years now.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, My current role.

Shalimar Oliver:

We work as you know, nationwide with different local, state, federal agencies

Shalimar Oliver:

on all kinds of animal crimes related things, offering support, consultation

Shalimar Oliver:

resources, all the way up to full scale deployments when you see us out in the

Shalimar Oliver:

field working with law enforcement, executing a warrant and usually

Shalimar Oliver:

taking a large number of animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

But, um, prior to that, I actually was an animal control

Shalimar Oliver:

officer in San Diego County, California, uh, for about 11 years.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so conducted, you know, numerous animal cruelty investigations, working

Shalimar Oliver:

by investigations, all kinds of things, picking up, you know, stray, hit by

Shalimar Oliver:

car while injured animals, you name it.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, caiman alligator.

Shalimar Oliver:

That's a story for another time.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, and then, uh, worked at the San Diego Humane Society before

Shalimar Oliver:

that as a behavior counselor.

Shalimar Oliver:

So kind of got that portion of our work, uh, in the, about a

Shalimar Oliver:

year and a half that I was there.

Shalimar Oliver:

But before that I worked at, uh, the Sydney R S P C A in Australia

Shalimar Oliver:

and in Aussie Wildlife Park too.

Shalimar Oliver:

So got some diversity with different species, but, um, none that you'll really

Shalimar Oliver:

find free roaming around these parts.

DrG:

I met you.

DrG:

I, well, I finally got to work with you for the first time LA

DrG:

last year on a large scale case.

DrG:

So I feel you would be an excellent guest to have to discuss large scale

DrG:

cases, how they are worked, uh, the, the things that work, the things that

DrG:

don't work, and, you know, just educating everybody from animal control officers

DrG:

to hopefully the, the people in law enforcement and even veterinarians

DrG:

in the community on everything that it takes to, to work up these cases.

DrG:

So, can you first let our listeners know what is a, what

DrG:

constitutes a large scale case?

Shalimar Oliver:

I mean, I don't think there's really any set definition, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

We kind of talk about when we reference, um, hoarding, you know, we think of

Shalimar Oliver:

like a large accumulation of animals and more than one person can ultimately

Shalimar Oliver:

take care of and has the capacity to provide the basic but proper care to.

Shalimar Oliver:

So there's no number.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, when we go to the different homes with people, it's like, you know,

Shalimar Oliver:

if they have more than 10 cats, more than 12 dogs, there's, it's just when that

Shalimar Oliver:

level of care kind of starts to fail.

Shalimar Oliver:

, and you know, as you know, with the whole term large scale, we kind of

Shalimar Oliver:

moved out of referencing it as hoarding because it's in the DSM five, it's a

Shalimar Oliver:

clinical diagnosis, so we have to be extra careful with how we reference it.

Shalimar Oliver:

I think in our safe space, in the welfare field, you know, we all know

Shalimar Oliver:

how to talk about it amongst ourselves.

Shalimar Oliver:

But, uh, from a legal standpoint, now that it's an actual diagnosis, we kind

Shalimar Oliver:

of are using the large scale neglect, large scale cruelty term instead.

DrG:

We talk about, um, how rescue hoarders, for instance, are not

DrG:

necessarily people that are sick, right?

DrG:

Like puppy mills can be a hoarder.

DrG:

So that would be something that would fit under that.

DrG:

Like we cannot really call them necessarily hoarders, so

DrG:

it's a mental disease because they're, they may not be sick.

DrG:

They may just be doing it for their own benefit.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

There's like , any type of, um, large sum of animals that have to be seized, whether

Shalimar Oliver:

it come from a collector, a hoarder, uh, a business, you know, like a breeder.

Shalimar Oliver:

So,

DrG:

Who are the people involved in identifying these cases and how do they

DrG:

ask for help or how do they approach you

DrG:

guys?

Shalimar Oliver:

Usually, so we get outreach kind of two different ways,

Shalimar Oliver:

and it can come from the public.

Shalimar Oliver:

So the complainant themselves that's seen it, been there, knows about it,

Shalimar Oliver:

um, and has, you know, direct, uh, a direct experience with the situation.

Shalimar Oliver:

Or it could be from law enforcement to reaching out.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, you know, if they're already investigating something and they've

Shalimar Oliver:

acknowledged it's definitely exceeds the capacity and the level of

Shalimar Oliver:

resources they have as an agency, um, then they will reach out to us.

Shalimar Oliver:

But if the complainant's sending us information, then we're likely gonna

Shalimar Oliver:

reach out to local law enforcement, animal control, whoever the, whoever

Shalimar Oliver:

has jurisdiction, and then we are gonna pass that information over to

Shalimar Oliver:

them and, and then with sending that information, Offer at the end of it,

Shalimar Oliver:

Hey, let us know if you need something cuz we can offer all these different

Shalimar Oliver:

types of assistance if you need it.

Shalimar Oliver:

So it's not like anything with stepping on toes, we're not an enforcement authority.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but we look to identify what types of resources we could

Shalimar Oliver:

potentially help with in order to make that case work and succeed.

DrG:

People will, will sometimes say, oh, the Humane Society, and not just

DrG:

like you guys, but in general, humane Society didn't do anything about it.

DrG:

Mm-hmm.

DrG:

And there is a lack of understanding that the Humane Society is not

DrG:

necessarily a law enforcement facility that can prosecute,

DrG:

that can bring up cases against.

DrG:

So what, what is the importance of law enforcement and how

DrG:

are they involved in the whole

Shalimar Oliver:

process?

Shalimar Oliver:

I think it depends on the jurisdiction, because sometimes you'll only have law

Shalimar Oliver:

enforcement such as a police department.

Shalimar Oliver:

We're a sheriff's office and there won't be an animal shelter or animal

Shalimar Oliver:

control humane society locally.

Shalimar Oliver:

So they are tasked with having to investigate file

Shalimar Oliver:

charges, prosecute everything.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but if there is an animal control agency or a humane society, often we see

Shalimar Oliver:

now we have animal control officers, we have humane law enforcement, and these

Shalimar Oliver:

guys that already have the experience and the foundational knowledge of

Shalimar Oliver:

everything, animal can go out and start the investigation at least

Shalimar Oliver:

and, you know, just build their case.

Shalimar Oliver:

Sometimes they've gotta refer it over to police officer or sheriff's deputy.

Shalimar Oliver:

But otherwise, you know, we see a lot of these ACOs out there that are taking these

Shalimar Oliver:

cases on and, , eventually discovering that they have something, right.

Shalimar Oliver:

They've got that thing that, you know, they got the original complaint.

Shalimar Oliver:

They tried educating, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

We think, we all know that we, we don't want to have to take the

Shalimar Oliver:

things if we don't have to, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

And so when education fails and things kind of become non-compliant and

Shalimar Oliver:

nothing's changing, at what point do we in the work that we do, , have to

Shalimar Oliver:

step in and say, okay, enough's enough.

Shalimar Oliver:

You are not, there's no change here.

Shalimar Oliver:

There's no improvement for the lives of these animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

So therefore, we have to step in and look at either criminally, prosecuting,

Shalimar Oliver:

charging, uh, and seizing the animals so that we can get them the care they need.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, so yeah, it's, most of the time we see a lot of the ACOs and the humane

Shalimar Oliver:

offices doing it, but we are seeing a lot of police officers and sheriffs

Shalimar Oliver:

that are having to take this on too.

Shalimar Oliver:

And it's

DrG:

important to educate people, as you say, because sometimes the problems

DrG:

occur because of lack of education, or even there may be lack of , finances,

DrG:

lack of their knowledge of what they can do to solve the problem.

DrG:

Uh, like with some, some people that are collectors of animals, they may want help,

DrG:

but they don't know what to do with it.

DrG:

So you're not necessarily going in, in an aggressive mode

DrG:

to, to get them in trouble.

DrG:

We're trying to help them and trying to help the animals, but one of the things

DrG:

that we have discussed in the past is how there has to be some legal action in some

DrG:

of these cases to be able to, to keep an eye on them and manage them properly.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

So I, it comes to mind with, for instance, with like hoarders, people that.

DrG:

, that just really love these animals and they cannot get rid of 'em.

DrG:

Or even if they're willing to accept some help, that there still has to be legal

DrG:

involvement in those cases to manage them.

DrG:

So can you explain the why that's needed and the importance of that short and long

Shalimar Oliver:

term?

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah, I mean, it's hard because a lot of the times you'll come in

Shalimar Oliver:

and you'll have to, you'll, you'll have these conversations with these

Shalimar Oliver:

agencies that are like, We just wanna go in and take the animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

Well, that doesn't get rid of the problem.

Shalimar Oliver:

And especially when you're looking at these collectors in these large

Shalimar Oliver:

scale situations of we know, you know, uh, it's, there's close to

Shalimar Oliver:

a hundred percent recidivism rate.

Shalimar Oliver:

So they will go back out.

Shalimar Oliver:

You take these animals now, they'll go back out and re accumulate in X amount

Shalimar Oliver:

of time, and you'll be right back to where you started and when we're,

Shalimar Oliver:

, experiencing this national crisis with the overpopulation, the lack of resources

Shalimar Oliver:

that are out there for all these shelters taking in these animals, that's one of the

Shalimar Oliver:

most important things that we're trying to point out to law enforcement of why,

Shalimar Oliver:

why you need to kind of nip it in the bud.

Shalimar Oliver:

And unfortunately, yes, criminal charges need to apply in order to get them

Shalimar Oliver:

help as the person, as the offender, ensure the safety of the animals,

Shalimar Oliver:

the success for the criminal case, but also the security of the shelters

Shalimar Oliver:

that are working with these animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

Because the last thing you wanna do, Seize a hundred cats tomorrow

Shalimar Oliver:

and then in three months, four months they've got another 50.

Shalimar Oliver:

And that same shelter is tasked with having to take another 50 cats.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and I think that's, they're kind of like the forgotten piece here is

Shalimar Oliver:

that, you know, law enforcement's stepping up to take the case on, but

Shalimar Oliver:

they have to communicate as well with their animal shelters, humane society.

Shalimar Oliver:

So everyone's on the same page with the before and after, how things will work,

Shalimar Oliver:

who it's gonna affect, um, in the long term, like you just said, so that they

Shalimar Oliver:

don't re-offend and shelters aren't right back where they started investing

Shalimar Oliver:

more resources that they don't have.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, cuz it takes away from the rest of the, , you know, support, they're

Shalimar Oliver:

able to offer their community when they have to put all their focus on this one

Shalimar Oliver:

specific situation with all these animals that, as you know, sometimes we're,

Shalimar Oliver:

we're holding for a really long time.

Shalimar Oliver:

, if they're not immediately surrendered, so that shelter that's holding those animals

Shalimar Oliver:

is paying for, caring for their staff is, you know, tasked with the, the burden

Shalimar Oliver:

of, you know, what we know are usually a large number of not so well animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

They're usually sick.

Shalimar Oliver:

They can be, you know, under socialized and that just, that weighs so heavy on

Shalimar Oliver:

shelter staff and, and, um, services.

DrG:

It's really important for people to understand that because

DrG:

it is a mental health problem.

DrG:

The hoarding, for instance, is that part , of the legal system, part of

DrG:

the, of the action has to be , mandatory health evaluations and treatment.

DrG:

Because we can, as, as you well said, you take the animals away.

DrG:

You don't do anything about it.

DrG:

The problem's still there.

DrG:

Many, many years ago, we were part of a TV show that dealt with animal

DrG:

hoarding, and they went somewhere here in, in Ohio, in Jackson County, Ohio.

DrG:

And they had us come in to do spay and neuter, and they went into this

DrG:

family that, um, an elderly husband and wife that had well over 80 cats

DrG:

and they took all the cats away.

DrG:

And then, uh, at the end of the episode, you know, all the people went to this

DrG:

nursing home and happily ever after.

DrG:

Well, that's happy ever after.

DrG:

As to the end of the episode, because nothing happened, nothing was changed.

DrG:

Those people could not afford to stay in that housing environment.

DrG:

So they went back to that home that was just should have condemned.

DrG:

They go back to that, that dirty home, and then they started accumulating cats again.

DrG:

So within a six month period, they were up to 36 cats again, and they were

DrG:

calling us for help with spay and neuter.

DrG:

So that to me, showed me the importance of legal action.

DrG:

It's not that I wanna get these old people in trouble, right?

DrG:

It's not that I want them to go to jail.

DrG:

It's not that I want anything, but I want them to receive.

DrG:

Some form of help because without, without mental health assistance,

DrG:

nothing is going to get better.

Shalimar Oliver:

And that's the only way now we're seeing like,

Shalimar Oliver:

you have to get them, they have to be charged with something,

Shalimar Oliver:

they've gotta be put in the system.

Shalimar Oliver:

And it's really hard, you know, we'll have law enforcement come back and

Shalimar Oliver:

say like, I'm not, you know, just like you said, I'm not gonna charge

Shalimar Oliver:

this sweet old lady that you know, has a hundred cats that are dying.

Shalimar Oliver:

I'm gonna look bad too.

Shalimar Oliver:

They're worried about how that's gonna look to their community.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's like, if you look at it from a different perspective, you're actually

Shalimar Oliver:

showing your community that you don't only wanna support the animals

Shalimar Oliver:

of your community, but the people too, because you're helping both.

Shalimar Oliver:

And it's, you know, a perspective we're trying to.

Shalimar Oliver:

Have these agencies see that, you know, if you get them monitored,

Shalimar Oliver:

you, you get them on probation, you give them the span of ownership.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, the mental health counseling is super important, um, so that everything

Shalimar Oliver:

can be monitored and things are documented, but it's the only way to

Shalimar Oliver:

get them the actual help that they need.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and you nailed it on the head too, with the, the whole, we're not

Shalimar Oliver:

trying to put people in prison for, you know, things getting outta control.

Shalimar Oliver:

Often as we know, there's a trigger behind a lot of these collections,

Shalimar Oliver:

like something that started it all and.

Shalimar Oliver:

They just kind of lost track, but they still need that help.

Shalimar Oliver:

So when these agencies just want to dismiss them and come in and take

Shalimar Oliver:

the animals, it's really unfortunate cause we know they'll be back

Shalimar Oliver:

there in a short period of time.

Shalimar Oliver:

But it's really fantastic to see.

Shalimar Oliver:

A lot more agencies now are kind of more receptive to this because there's

Shalimar Oliver:

sadly the proof from all these other cases out there where it's failed

Shalimar Oliver:

and they've gone back and collected more and they've been in the same

Shalimar Oliver:

pickle they were in six months ago.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

Suppose as animal welfare advocates, we just get so concerned about the animals.

DrG:

That we forget about the humans involved, and we try to vilify them

DrG:

because these animals are suffering and they're being neglected.

DrG:

And yes, something needs to be to be done, but we need to understand

DrG:

why they're doing it, what the, the reasons were, and then work with this

DrG:

person to keep 'em from doing it again.

DrG:

And the other side of it is getting other, other organizations like

DrG:

the health Department involved.

DrG:

I worked a case with in Athens County where her probation, I think it

DrG:

just, uh, it just lifted this year.

DrG:

So she's back to being able to, to own animals.

DrG:

However, the house is still not in, in the right environment for

DrG:

her to be able to live there.

DrG:

So because this case went through court, the health department got involved.

DrG:

They are, they don't have a time limit.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

The, the house needs to be clean and habitable before this elderly

DrG:

lady can go back to living in it.

DrG:

So we are making sure that this lady is not living in filth covered in, in

DrG:

feces and urine and everything else.

DrG:

Um, we are showing care for her even though the dogs that were in her care

DrG:

were not in good shape, were trying to help her so that this doesn't occur again.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah, no, and, and there's another fantastic point.

Shalimar Oliver:

I think we know that it's always going to be a multidisciplinary approach.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, we've, we, most of us have already talked about this, but it's,

Shalimar Oliver:

it's when you're explaining these agencies, if you all work together,

Shalimar Oliver:

you can accomplish so much more and.

Shalimar Oliver:

Honestly, like, as we know, what are the odds?

Shalimar Oliver:

Like the police department's been out there before code compliance has been out

Shalimar Oliver:

there, code enforcement, animal control.

Shalimar Oliver:

Most of us know that these addresses and these people, we've

Shalimar Oliver:

gone out for separate issues.

Shalimar Oliver:

But if we just join forces on it, um, it, it's, it's so much more helpful.

Shalimar Oliver:

So the whole cross reporting thing, we are totally big advocates of with

Shalimar Oliver:

sharing information, um, to all, you know, assess how everyone can

Shalimar Oliver:

help and come together to help the person and get the animals out of it.

Shalimar Oliver:

So definitely, , something important to stress of like, why?

Shalimar Oliver:

Agencies need to be working together.

Shalimar Oliver:

And it gives you that extra foot cuz um, I've had search warrants

Shalimar Oliver:

where, you know, we've invited code enforcement to piggyback on them.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, like, Hey, we're going out to this property.

Shalimar Oliver:

And they're like, oh, oh my gosh, I, I have a feeling all

Shalimar Oliver:

these violations are happening.

Shalimar Oliver:

I love to be able to get into, to take a look and, and see, um, child welfare

Shalimar Oliver:

services, adult protective services too.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, and that's, that's huge.

Shalimar Oliver:

Sadly.

Shalimar Oliver:

Now with, um, uh, you know, a lot of these issues that we

Shalimar Oliver:

know, the, the term, the link.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so we're, we're seeing other multiple issues beyond that happening.

Shalimar Oliver:

So you bring these multiple agencies in cuz there's also not just the

Shalimar Oliver:

animal cruelty going on, but sometimes something else is going on too.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah,

DrG:

we, uh, we have had, well I've worked in a couple of cases.

DrG:

One was a rescue hoarder and then, um, the other one was a lady

DrG:

that starved her dog to death.

DrG:

Like she just abandoned it in a trailer and the dog died.

DrG:

And both were cases where there were minors.

DrG:

That were being neglected.

DrG:

So in us doing something about these animals, then health

DrG:

services get involved, other organizations get involved, and then

DrG:

they're able to help these kids.

DrG:

Mm-hmm.

DrG:

Um, and it all started by, you know, as a veterinarian, making a complaint about

DrG:

this animal is not being taken care of.

DrG:

The case of the starved dog was an animal control officer

DrG:

that saw the, the dead dog.

DrG:

Well, he could have stopped there, just taken the dog, the, the

DrG:

dead dog away and, you know, just figured out, okay, it's just a dog.

DrG:

But he decided to start an investigation.

DrG:

He decided to contact me as a forensic veterinarian to evaluate if, if

DrG:

it had been neglect and cruelty, if this had been done on purpose.

DrG:

And then from there it just, It just goes into, into a much bigger picture.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

And we even talk about cases of, like with dog fighting, sometimes you investigate

DrG:

a case of dog fighting and you find a bunch of other crimes, and sometimes you

DrG:

investigate a crime and find dog fighting.

DrG:

I just heard today on our, , on our Facebook page about a case that

DrG:

they were just being investigated.

DrG:

It was a search warrant for weed.

DrG:

Like, it, it sounds, you know, simple enough, but they went in

DrG:

and there were tons of guns and then there was dog fighting.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

So, you know, doing say, seeing something, doing something, saying something and

DrG:

then getting everybody involved can, can help not just the animals, but

DrG:

it helps the community in general.

DrG:

Oh, for

Shalimar Oliver:

sure.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

Putting a spotlight on, you know, multiple other problems.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, yeah, that was a great case.

Shalimar Oliver:

I just read that when you posted it the other day.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

So , can you run us through, , a large scale case from, the, the beginning

DrG:

of it and then how it gets worked up?

Shalimar Oliver:

I mean, so I, I cannot, uh, stress the importance

Shalimar Oliver:

enough, and I think, uh, you know, you'll high five me on this one.

Shalimar Oliver:

Is, is the pre-planning.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yes.

Shalimar Oliver:

Pre soon as you know.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yes.

Shalimar Oliver:

Soon as you know, it's gonna be something, um, you know, pre-planning and don't rush.

Shalimar Oliver:

So you get your, you build your investigation, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

Most of you obviously know how to, um, start your investigation.

Shalimar Oliver:

You hopefully you've tried your education.

Shalimar Oliver:

Usually there's some type of compliance order that's issued cuz

Shalimar Oliver:

you want your paper trail, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

Just to show that you tried, you tried, you tried.

Shalimar Oliver:

Nothing worked.

Shalimar Oliver:

It failed.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, they became non-compliant, what have you.

Shalimar Oliver:

So you've reached this point and you, you've consulted with your

Shalimar Oliver:

prosecutor, they're on board and see that there are multiple violations.

Shalimar Oliver:

There is enough probable cause, um, for a search warrant.

Shalimar Oliver:

There's enough evidence to show that there are violations occurring

Shalimar Oliver:

and that ultimately the only way to stop and intercept is to seize them.

Shalimar Oliver:

Via search warrant.

Shalimar Oliver:

So once you have those pieces on board, which sidebar can be a huge problem and,

Shalimar Oliver:

and, and barrier for some people in their jurisdiction, uh, with leadership, with,

Shalimar Oliver:

you know, the different prosecutors who are also tasked with multiple, multiple

Shalimar Oliver:

counties to cover human crimes, uh, human cases as well as animal cases.

Shalimar Oliver:

So we see a lot of, you know, investigators across the country have that

Shalimar Oliver:

issue of like, I can't even get it through to my prosecutor or to my sheriff or or

Shalimar Oliver:

police chief, the, the person above them.

Shalimar Oliver:

So sometimes they hit another wall, but once you get those green lights

Shalimar Oliver:

and there is enough to move forward, then you begin your planning.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, because it's, it's so important again, to consider the ripple effect.

Shalimar Oliver:

Cuz if you go out and you rush, we are human, we are going to make errors.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, but do we want to run that risk and make that error, uh, at

Shalimar Oliver:

the risk of these animals safety?

Shalimar Oliver:

Do we wanna compromise the criminal case?

Shalimar Oliver:

Absolutely not.

Shalimar Oliver:

So at least I speak for us as an organization, we pride ourselves in our

Shalimar Oliver:

pre-planning and we wanna make sure, uh, you know, it's gonna take a while.

Shalimar Oliver:

We don't just come out overnight.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but for the safety of everyone involved, we do have to plan things of,

Shalimar Oliver:

you know, you take these animals, how is that gonna look like on the seizure day?

Shalimar Oliver:

Who do you have there?

Shalimar Oliver:

Because I've had agencies call us for help.

Shalimar Oliver:

I'm like, do you have a veterinarian?

Shalimar Oliver:

They're like, no, we were just gonna call when we got out there.

Shalimar Oliver:

And it's like, let me tell you about this other national crisis called shortage.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, uh, uh, you know, let alone, if it's a small animal vet or a large animal vet,

Shalimar Oliver:

you're, you're really out of luck often.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, um, Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

But once you're out on scene, how, how is that operation going to look like?

Shalimar Oliver:

What, who are your personnel?

Shalimar Oliver:

Are they experienced for the species of animal that they're handling?

Shalimar Oliver:

Do you have the veterinarian?

Shalimar Oliver:

How are you documenting everything you find on scene?

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and who's with you?

Shalimar Oliver:

Do you have a police department and sheriff's office that's coming out

Shalimar Oliver:

to, to keep, you know, hold the scene?

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, so there, there's all of that.

Shalimar Oliver:

And as we know too, you get out on scene, you can plan for those a

Shalimar Oliver:

hundred cats as much as you want.

Shalimar Oliver:

There's gonna be 375, um, right.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, you know, ha, having all these backup plans of what if this fails,

Shalimar Oliver:

what would we, what would we do then?

Shalimar Oliver:

And, um, if, you know, the one shelter or agency can't take in and absorb that

Shalimar Oliver:

population, where are they going to go?

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, we talk about.

Shalimar Oliver:

Temp shelters, fairgrounds, like other space to use to hold the animals

Shalimar Oliver:

temporarily if, if there isn't a local shelter or the local shelter is full.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, emptying out the local shelter by transferring those animals out to make

Shalimar Oliver:

space for the incoming case animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and how long they're gonna have to be held there.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, we really do try to see if the person is interested in surrendering

Shalimar Oliver:

the animals on seizure day, so that that way we've got more freedom to

Shalimar Oliver:

get them exited to other, you know, shelter and rescue groups, get them

Shalimar Oliver:

fostered, get certain veterinary care.

Shalimar Oliver:

We may not be able to get under normal circumstances, so, you know, um, but

Shalimar Oliver:

once we kind of figure out, you know, like they're not gonna surrender them,

Shalimar Oliver:

then we've gotta hold them for, you know, weeks to months while we file these

Shalimar Oliver:

petitions and documents with the courts.

Shalimar Oliver:

Get a hearing set up to show how much this is going to cost for X amount of care.

Shalimar Oliver:

Usually 30 days of care for the animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, you know, you're looking at.

Shalimar Oliver:

Just drafting those, which we do often for the cases that we assist with.

Shalimar Oliver:

You are looking at tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Shalimar Oliver:

And because again, these animals were seized out of exigency, they're, you

Shalimar Oliver:

know, um, they can be dying dead, very sick, and the expense for that

Shalimar Oliver:

type of care, even basic care adds up when you're looking at the number

Shalimar Oliver:

of animals that you've gotta see.

Shalimar Oliver:

So just being really over overly.

Shalimar Oliver:

Planned and extra thorough, I think is just one of the most important things to

Shalimar Oliver:

ensure everything goes smoothly so that none of the animals have to be returned.

Shalimar Oliver:

Nothing was questioned about the validity of the warrant and, you know, remembering

Shalimar Oliver:

it says live evidence that we are seizing.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's not getting tossed into a drug locker.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's, it's, you know, something that someone, an agency whomever's responsible

Shalimar Oliver:

for to not just maintain, but to show improvement and steady improvement.

Shalimar Oliver:

Oh, hey, look what two weeks worth of food did for this dog.

Shalimar Oliver:

Look at that.

Shalimar Oliver:

Or, you know, uh, 30 days of food for this horse.

Shalimar Oliver:

And look at its body weight, what it went from.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, just so much planning.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but it's easy for us to say this, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

Cuz we're sitting in a controlled environment and we're just,

Shalimar Oliver:

you know, Providing different guidance when you're on scene.

Shalimar Oliver:

Just like you said, there's that passion of like, well, I see this and this

Shalimar Oliver:

and this, and I need to act right now.

Shalimar Oliver:

And that's where sometimes the rush approach doesn't work, but sometimes, I

Shalimar Oliver:

don't know, you might also be left with no other option, but to rush if you're

Shalimar Oliver:

seeing something die right in front of you, um, how do you turn away from that?

Shalimar Oliver:

And, you know, we know there can be loss leading up to the execution of a

Shalimar Oliver:

warrant, but it's just, it can be hard for investigators when you're just

Shalimar Oliver:

standing there and you're seeing stuff.

Shalimar Oliver:

So you unfortunately might get tasked with having to execute something

Shalimar Oliver:

a lot quicker than you'd planned.

Shalimar Oliver:

But hence why pre-planning, it's not just for this case, it's in

Shalimar Oliver:

general as any kind of, um, you know, investigator in this field, you should

Shalimar Oliver:

always just have that in the back of your head of like, what would I do?

Shalimar Oliver:

If I went out on this kind of call, what would we do as an organization?

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and having these, uh, conversations with your police department, sheriff's

Shalimar Oliver:

office, prosecutor's office, your leadership to say, you know, we just need

Shalimar Oliver:

to have a plan, just like a disaster plan.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, we know if there's a flood, a fire, a tornado, what

Shalimar Oliver:

have you, uh, what would we do?

Shalimar Oliver:

What do we need?

Shalimar Oliver:

We've gotta get our animal supplies, medications, so we

Shalimar Oliver:

know about things like that.

Shalimar Oliver:

Similarly, we wanna stop planning for what we would do for these cluster cases that

Shalimar Oliver:

could, you know, avalanche and, um, yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

So tons of planning.

Shalimar Oliver:

Did that answer your question?

Shalimar Oliver:

I just went off on, that was my circle.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

Right there.

DrG:

No, but yeah, but.

DrG:

No, but exactly that's important because people don't think about the

DrG:

planning part and the importance of it and yeah, like having a standard

DrG:

operating procedure for how you handle different types of cases and knowing

DrG:

all of your contacts of who you're going to call whenever something happens.

DrG:

Uh, last year for example, uh, rescue organization contacted me and said,

DrG:

Hey, we have this problem with all these horses and I don't know what to

DrG:

do and we need to do it immediately.

DrG:

So I reached out to you guys and one of the first things that I

DrG:

told the group that I was working with is, we have to be patient.

DrG:

I know that you wanna get these horses out of there today, but we can't do

DrG:

it today, so we can do it properly.

DrG:

And thankfully, they were very open to it.

DrG:

Um, so things worked in a way that in, in my eyes, was really well planned.

DrG:

And it was, and it, and you guys responded to it, in my opinion, relatively quickly.

DrG:

But, you know, it, it takes, it takes time to plan it properly so that

DrG:

we know that we're not taking these animals from a bad situation and

DrG:

putting them in another bad situation.

DrG:

Exactly.

DrG:

Or that we're gonna take, you know, we're gonna take these animals out and we're not

DrG:

gonna be able to do a proper examination the day off, and then the examination

DrG:

doesn't happen seven to 10 days later.

DrG:

Well, a poor body condition may be a good body condition at the time of that exam.

DrG:

So then how are you gonna prove neglect?

DrG:

How are you gonna prove starvation?

DrG:

How are you gonna prove emaciation?

DrG:

You can't because you don't have the information the day of.

DrG:

You don't have the, the proper data, and even when you plan

DrG:

everything a hundred percent, not everything goes to, goes to plan.

DrG:

Like you guys very well say at the beginning of, of every meeting.

DrG:

It's like, this is our plan for today and tomorrow morning

DrG:

we're probably gonna change it.

DrG:

And so far, every single plan has been changed.

DrG:

Oh yeah.

DrG:

Right.

Shalimar Oliver:

We just, it's the flow.

Shalimar Oliver:

Just go, just, just go.

DrG:

Exactly.

DrG:

Because not every case is exactly the same.

DrG:

Not every, not every location that you go to is going to be the same.

DrG:

And yeah.

DrG:

As you, as you said, you expect a hundred animals and you may get 300 or you

DrG:

may expect a hundred and only get 20.

DrG:

So kind of knowing how to, how to respond and react to the environment

DrG:

and making sure that everybody involved is properly trained.

DrG:

Because having a veterinarian doesn't mean that it's a veterinarian that's

DrG:

gonna be able to do a forensic exam.

DrG:

Or an exam that, that it, you know, that pro provide a report or a

DrG:

consultation that is going to be adequate for legal, for the legal system.

DrG:

You can have a general practitioner that can definitely do an examination, but

DrG:

would they be able to discuss in forensic terms what the neglect for cruelty

DrG:

is or are they even willing to do so?

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

So because so many of my peers don't wanna get involved in anything that has

DrG:

to do with criminal or neglect cases because they don't wanna go to court.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

Uh, and I understand that fear, but.

DrG:

And, and putting together a case like this that has to be taken into consideration.

DrG:

It doesn't matter.

DrG:

You have a vet, it doesn't matter how you have a technician.

DrG:

It doesn't matter that you have volunteers.

DrG:

Are they the correct people for that kind of case?

DrG:

Right?

Shalimar Oliver:

No, a hundred percent.

Shalimar Oliver:

And that's why also we have really well laid out, you know, um, I c s and incident

Shalimar Oliver:

action plan, all this documentation that outlines people's roles, who

Shalimar Oliver:

reports to who, who's doing what.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and so that we know, um, You know who to go to when something does fall

Shalimar Oliver:

apart, and you've got the right people in every one of those positions so that

Shalimar Oliver:

we all know how to function and flow and work together effectively on that day.

Shalimar Oliver:

Because yes, you can have, you know, 50 people just come on out, but if you don't

Shalimar Oliver:

have some level of organization and plan, uh, for the, how those people are going

Shalimar Oliver:

to function and the roles that they're going to play, it turns into a logistical

Shalimar Oliver:

nightmare, uh, with just 10 people doing the same thing at once and, and things

Shalimar Oliver:

just aren't getting done efficiently.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, um, yeah, you make a really valid point.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

And then getting everything put together properly for the prosecutor,

DrG:

because we are really lucky in Ohio that we have an animal law prosecutor.

DrG:

So we have somebody that can go to any county and prosecute animal cases,

DrG:

and they are familiar with animal cases, but they're not involved in

DrG:

every animal case that that happens.

DrG:

And I have met prosecutors that are not familiar enough with animal law.

DrG:

Or that do not see the importance of prosecuting animal cases, you know,

DrG:

which becomes a really big problem.

DrG:

They'll say, well, we already have all these other charges against them, so we

DrG:

are not gonna prosecute for the animal cases because kind of like, who cares?

DrG:

And they don't understand the importance of it.

DrG:

Um, and also we have people that blame the prosecutors for

DrG:

not getting a tougher sentence.

DrG:

However, if we do not give them all the tools mm-hmm.

DrG:

Then they may not have, they may not have a strong case and they

DrG:

may not wanna take a case because they don't think that they can win.

DrG:

And they don't think that they can win because they don't have

DrG:

everything that, that is necessary.

DrG:

So we have to work with, with the prosecutors.

DrG:

How, how, how is your work in, in these cases with prosecutors?

DrG:

How, like, how are they involved?

DrG:

How do you prepare them?

DrG:

How do you get information back and forth?

Shalimar Oliver:

I mean, at some point there's some type of

Shalimar Oliver:

contact that we'll have with them.

Shalimar Oliver:

Usually I'm working with the investigator themselves.

Shalimar Oliver:

We have worked directly with like a district attorney's office first.

Shalimar Oliver:

Mm-hmm.

Shalimar Oliver:

But that doesn't happen too often.

Shalimar Oliver:

That's a really passionate, you know, district attorney's office

Shalimar Oliver:

that's going above and beyond.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but usually I'm working with the investigator and then at some

Shalimar Oliver:

point I need to know that their prosecutor's on board and supportive.

Shalimar Oliver:

And if they're not, can I support and offer resources,

Shalimar Oliver:

guidance, any type of assistance.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, this could be a prosecutor that just doesn't know.

Shalimar Oliver:

They don't know how to ask for the help and who to get that from.

Shalimar Oliver:

So we've had some receptive prosecutors like, Hey, if I connect you with another

Shalimar Oliver:

prosecutor, you can talk prosecutor with each other, or I can, you know,

Shalimar Oliver:

guide them through something as well.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, you also get the prosecutors that flat out are not

Shalimar Oliver:

interested, just like you said.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, and we've been talking about, you know, we know.

Shalimar Oliver:

Everyone's caseload is heavy.

Shalimar Oliver:

It doesn't matter what job you're really doing anymore, we're all busy.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but I do see, you know, some of these prosecutors I've been

Shalimar Oliver:

working with recently that are covering multiple counties, and I,

Shalimar Oliver:

I don't know how they're doing it.

Shalimar Oliver:

I really don't.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so it's, if we can help l to lighten their load, but as long as I'll take

Shalimar Oliver:

this case on, how, how can we help, you know, um, give them what they need

Shalimar Oliver:

to take the next step of the case.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, once we know they're on board, then, you know, it's, it's kind of,

Shalimar Oliver:

um, I mean, it's definitely great.

Shalimar Oliver:

I have worked in the great state of Ohio, uh, with, you know, as, uh, one of your

Shalimar Oliver:

attorneys that, that handles the cases.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, you know, they're obviously really well versed.

Shalimar Oliver:

So that's another thing to have a leg on, leg up on is, is the fact that

Shalimar Oliver:

you've done an animal case before.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but I think if a lot of these prosecutors haven't, it's nice

Shalimar Oliver:

to connect them with someone who has, or even more simply give

Shalimar Oliver:

them some case law to reference.

Shalimar Oliver:

Like, look, this has been done before and they won and they, it

Shalimar Oliver:

was, they the case was successful.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, because it's a risk, you know, we know it's a risk for the prosecutors

Shalimar Oliver:

and they're putting their name on this.

Shalimar Oliver:

So they're saying by putting their name on it, that it is a, a solid

Shalimar Oliver:

case, um, that they don't have, you know, real concerns about losing.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, That's risky for a prosecutor.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and again, this is a unique situation for them when they're used to dealing

Shalimar Oliver:

with, uh, other human crimes instead.

Shalimar Oliver:

And then we bring them, you know, a hundred sick feral dying cats and they're

Shalimar Oliver:

like, what is what, why, what, what, what, what do you, what's cost of care?

Shalimar Oliver:

Like, what do, what do you mean?

Shalimar Oliver:

And so, um, but most of the time we do work with pretty decent

Shalimar Oliver:

prosecutors that are really interested in taking the case on.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but mostly just, they're just busy.

Shalimar Oliver:

They're so overworked right now.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, the ones where we have, we, we hit a wall with sometimes that happens and

Shalimar Oliver:

sometimes we don't have an answer for it.

Shalimar Oliver:

And unfortunately, Sometimes the case has stopped there.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, there are other avenues.

Shalimar Oliver:

We certainly can try to help support and assist the investigator if

Shalimar Oliver:

they still wanna push it through.

Shalimar Oliver:

But we are limited too, and we don't have enforcement authority.

Shalimar Oliver:

So we just, we try our best with that.

Shalimar Oliver:

Trying to build a positive relationship with them and explaining what it is we do.

Shalimar Oliver:

Cuz sometimes there's still mixed messages exactly about what we

Shalimar Oliver:

do as an organization and a team.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but yeah, people are going to, if they haven't already find somebody that just,

Shalimar Oliver:

whether it be a prosecutor or someone from law enforcement that just doesn't wanna

Shalimar Oliver:

take it that far for whatever reason.

Shalimar Oliver:

And you can push and push and push, um, Still where we tell

Shalimar Oliver:

people, if you see something, say something like keep being a voice.

Shalimar Oliver:

Right?

Shalimar Oliver:

Sounds cheesy.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's very cliche, but it's, you know, if, if people stop talking about it, then

Shalimar Oliver:

people think that it's stopped happening and it's gone away and it's not a problem.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, um, those situations are out there and I definitely feel for a lot of those

Shalimar Oliver:

offices working with, um, you know, prosecutors or whomever that the case

Shalimar Oliver:

just doesn't go where it should go.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

Understanding the fact that some of these animal crimes, again, are involved

DrG:

with some human crimes, they, you know, if you, you can prosecute, uh, for,

DrG:

for instance, an animal sexual offender today, and then you're pro potentially

DrG:

preventing that person from being able to assault the person or, you know,

DrG:

like at least put 'em on the radar to know that something may happen.

DrG:

Uh, people that, that abuse children, uh, it, it all, it's all linked together.

DrG:

That's why there is the link.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

So.

Shalimar Oliver:

I like to, uh, um, recently, I think, and, and

Shalimar Oliver:

you would probably know some things off the top of your head about it.

Shalimar Oliver:

The, I like the research that's, that's getting done on different

Shalimar Oliver:

topics to support and help kind of.

Shalimar Oliver:

Motivate and encourage either an investigator or a prosecutor because

Shalimar Oliver:

now you have data, you have fact, you have proof, you have evidence of issues.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, you know, when you speak to animal sexual offenses and there's, uh, Ms.

Shalimar Oliver:

Mgeni Edwards who did a lot of research and compiled a lot of data over X

Shalimar Oliver:

amount of time, so that, you know, I've, I've presented some of her

Shalimar Oliver:

information to law enforcement when they're, when they're kind of dusting

Shalimar Oliver:

off a bestiality case going, you know, this is kind of almost a joke.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and besides us saying, well, there's a link and you're probably gonna find

Shalimar Oliver:

some child pornography or other crime going on, and you don't a hundred

Shalimar Oliver:

percent have them hooked at that point.

Shalimar Oliver:

They want evidence.

Shalimar Oliver:

They want to see that.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so I, I appreciate a lot of the recent research over the last couple of years.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's really been done to, to help.

Shalimar Oliver:

And I don't know that.

Shalimar Oliver:

They know how helpful it is.

Shalimar Oliver:

But it, it really, um, goes to show, especially with a prosecutor, I

Shalimar Oliver:

will say, cause I've done that a few times where they're like, oh my gosh.

Shalimar Oliver:

Like we can say whatever we want to them, but when they've read it and

Shalimar Oliver:

it's published and it's, you know, collected over X amount of time

Shalimar Oliver:

and those numbers are terrifying, um, that really hits home for them.

Shalimar Oliver:

And they see the importance because guess what?

Shalimar Oliver:

They are in court prosecuting those human sexual offenders.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so then they see that link and they're like, wow, if I trace these

Shalimar Oliver:

people back, there's a lot of, you know, evidence that parallels with this.

Shalimar Oliver:

So the research has been, um, I don't get to read a ton of it.

Shalimar Oliver:

I'd like to read more than I do, but when I see different articles

Shalimar Oliver:

that I try to come back to later, there's a lot of great research

Shalimar Oliver:

that's being done out there right now.

Shalimar Oliver:

And I think it's fantastic that there is the space for this to be done.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, especially during the peak of covid, if, if you will, , The information

Shalimar Oliver:

that was collected has, has been extraordinary shocking, but, yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

Well,

DrG:

and with cases like domestic violence that mm-hmm.

DrG:

A veterinarian, uh, may be the first one to see the case, and you recognize

DrG:

that the animal is being abused, and then potentially by, by reviewing

DrG:

that and evaluating that, you're going to be able to, to help a victim.

DrG:

Um, I know that, uh, a few weeks ago, Ohio Animal Advocates founder, Vicki Diesner,

DrG:

was on, on an episode and she talked about the fact that this man was abusing

DrG:

his wife and he killed the family dog.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

And he, and he murdered it in a really grotesque manner and hung it

DrG:

in their front yard so that they would see it and they would remember what

DrG:

they did, and they would feel bad about it as if it was their fault.

DrG:

Well, if somebody had done something at that point, Then, uh, time later,

DrG:

he actually kidnapped her and, uh, and abused her and tried to murder her.

DrG:

Right?

DrG:

So we do something about that dog to begin with and take it seriously.

DrG:

We keep that lady from having to go through, through all that

DrG:

trauma and all that trouble.

DrG:

And she, luckily she survived, but she's very lucky to, to have survived.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

Uh, so, how many missed opportunities along the way to help not only the

DrG:

animals, but again, to help the person?

DrG:

I mean, it is, it is a, it is a full circle problem and we kind of

DrG:

have to, to work together to help.

DrG:

Everybody involved and, and do better as a society.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

And the, um, I mean, the more too that agencies are taking on these large

Shalimar Oliver:

scale cases, the more data you're collecting there so that when they're

Shalimar Oliver:

successfully prosecuted, like I was saying before, you can present, you

Shalimar Oliver:

know, an, another officer in your state might be able to use your case now

Shalimar Oliver:

and say, look what we did and this is, and, and even connect with each other.

Shalimar Oliver:

We had, um, we did a case in Kentucky a couple years back at a, at a, a

Shalimar Oliver:

pet store, and that police chief who, you know, was so passionate about

Shalimar Oliver:

shutting that operation down was contacted by other law enforcement.

Shalimar Oliver:

Like, what did you do?

Shalimar Oliver:

Like, how, how.

Shalimar Oliver:

How do you do these things?

Shalimar Oliver:

It's an animal case.

Shalimar Oliver:

Like I don't, I don't want to do that.

Shalimar Oliver:

I don't know how to do that.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and, and so they, you learn from each other and he could provide that direct

Shalimar Oliver:

guidance that inspired them to, to take something else on themselves that may

Shalimar Oliver:

never have happened, but now that they know someone else has done it, that they

Shalimar Oliver:

can trust, they can go to and seek out.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, which is why it's fantastic when agencies do have that in them to

Shalimar Oliver:

move forward and take that next step.

Shalimar Oliver:

And yeah, I'm not gonna lie, they can be messy cases, they can be heavy cases.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, you think it's clean and perfect, and like

Shalimar Oliver:

we said, nothing goes to plan.

Shalimar Oliver:

Mm-hmm.

Shalimar Oliver:

And you end up holding animals longer than necessary.

Shalimar Oliver:

Your resources start to run out.

Shalimar Oliver:

Gosh, you know what?

Shalimar Oliver:

Whole other episode ain't gonna be started on compassion fatigue and burnout with

Shalimar Oliver:

shock and stuff across the country.

Shalimar Oliver:

But, you know, there's, there's so much to consider, uh, that could fall apart

Shalimar Oliver:

with a large scale case that we know it's nerve-wracking for these organizations.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and, and why the more we're all talking about it together, the more,

Shalimar Oliver:

more we're all working together and working on things, um, the better.

Shalimar Oliver:

So that next time another agency wants to do it, they can look back at

Shalimar Oliver:

you and go, all right, they did it.

Shalimar Oliver:

Let's find out how they did it and let's try it and give it a shot.

Shalimar Oliver:

, DrG: so we discussed the,

Shalimar Oliver:

So then we are there the day of.

Shalimar Oliver:

So what does it take to actually run the day?

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, this seizure warrant everything for a large scale case.

Shalimar Oliver:

A lot of coffee.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yes,

DrG:

actually, yes.

DrG:

Amen.

Shalimar Oliver:

Amen.

Shalimar Oliver:

Because then there's no restroom on scene and everyone's like, what do we, great.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, so limit coffee intake.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, but, you know, yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's, it's, uh, all hands on deck.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's, um, you know, it's come down to this, we ev all the pre-planning and, and,

Shalimar Oliver:

uh, multiple agencies working together.

Shalimar Oliver:

And we will have a brief, usually with law enforcement, um, to go

Shalimar Oliver:

over things, go over roles, go over their tactical, uh, plan as well.

Shalimar Oliver:

Because sometimes, unfortunately, these people may not be safe enough, , and

Shalimar Oliver:

need to be, , taken into custody as well.

Shalimar Oliver:

So what their tactical plan looks like and safety plan looks like.

Shalimar Oliver:

Safety's huge.

Shalimar Oliver:

A lot of these residences and properties are, , extremely unsafe for, with

Shalimar Oliver:

different hazards and things like that.

Shalimar Oliver:

So once law enforcement has officially served the warrant, which

Shalimar Oliver:

again, we advise, and when we do it, we do it early in the morning.

Shalimar Oliver:

, you do not wanna serve a warrant at like three o'clock in the

Shalimar Oliver:

afternoon to seize 200 animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's gonna take forever to process.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, you lose daylight and that really sucks.

Shalimar Oliver:

, so we will, you know, law enforcement will serve the search

Shalimar Oliver:

warrant, and then essentially we will create a, a master team.

Shalimar Oliver:

And our master team, which you are usually a part of, , you know, we have

Shalimar Oliver:

our case lead, we have a safety officer, we have our chief lead veterinarian

Shalimar Oliver:

that we can walk through with the crime scene virtually untouched.

Shalimar Oliver:

And we look at everything as it lies.

Shalimar Oliver:

And we start documenting.

Shalimar Oliver:

We have a photographer, someone doing video and mapping the property, , to

Shalimar Oliver:

see where everything is, what does it look like, how bad is

Shalimar Oliver:

it, , a rough population count too.

Shalimar Oliver:

And then for, for you, you know, it's triaging.

Shalimar Oliver:

Who do we have, who, who's the worst of their worst animals and

Shalimar Oliver:

worst conditions that need to be, you know, , examined and exited

Shalimar Oliver:

immediately and taken to emergency care.

Shalimar Oliver:

, other medical concerns, unique concerns that you have, , that

Shalimar Oliver:

you have to identify.

Shalimar Oliver:

And then we have to, after that walkthrough is done, come back

Shalimar Oliver:

together to determine how we will assign our field teams with, you

Shalimar Oliver:

know, , going into different areas of the property and how, what it'll look

Shalimar Oliver:

like for them, starting to document.

Shalimar Oliver:

So photograph, uh, and Id these animals as we remove them from these areas.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, you know, we, we do before and after photos.

Shalimar Oliver:

So we will do our entry photos first to show everything untouched, and then

Shalimar Oliver:

we even do exit photos so that when everything has been removed, that we will

Shalimar Oliver:

go through and take photos of what it looks like, , because we know challenges

Shalimar Oliver:

are presented later on and people can question, , oh, you hurt this animal, you

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broke its leg, you shot it, you, you know, starved it, whatever the excuse might be.

Shalimar Oliver:

So that way we've completely documented a scene to present to the prosecutor

Shalimar Oliver:

later and, and they can look at it like they were almost there.

Shalimar Oliver:

If they're not actually able to come out on scene with you, sometimes

Shalimar Oliver:

prosecutors will actually wanna come and check things out, , which we encourage.

Shalimar Oliver:

, but yeah, seizure day is, is long and we have pending however many animals we're

Shalimar Oliver:

taking, how many vets are we having?

Shalimar Oliver:

How many vets can you get?

Shalimar Oliver:

You might be in a town where there's one veterinarian and you have a large animal,

Shalimar Oliver:

like a livestock case, and there's a small animal vet that maybe the last time they

Shalimar Oliver:

dealt with a horse was back in college.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so, you know, you wanna look at your resources that you've

Shalimar Oliver:

plant planted as a part of your pre-planning, but the vet stations

Shalimar Oliver:

are just so important with keeping the operation running smooth all day.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, you have your field teams handling and bringing the dogs or animals

Shalimar Oliver:

for assessment, and then that next step is the, the vet team, , assessing

Shalimar Oliver:

them to determine where they're going, what's happening, how much of

Shalimar Oliver:

a priority is their medical condition.

Shalimar Oliver:

, what does your transport look like?

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, like you've got the animals, you've got them loaded, you've

Shalimar Oliver:

got them in crates, but how are they getting to your temp shelter?

Shalimar Oliver:

And so we've had, you know, some situations where people hadn't planned.

Shalimar Oliver:

They've, they've got a case with, you know, 60 horses, but they

Shalimar Oliver:

don't know anybody with trailers.

Shalimar Oliver:

Or equine vets that are really imperative to, , an integral, , with helping or

Shalimar Oliver:

if you can't get, you know, the right veterinarian, could somebody else

Shalimar Oliver:

help like someone else with industry knowledge, faria, things like that.

Shalimar Oliver:

, but it is a busy, busy day because every plan changes and

Shalimar Oliver:

you just have to go with the flow.

Shalimar Oliver:

, but once all the animals are documented, secured, and safe, then we're.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, hopefully doing that all before sundown.

Shalimar Oliver:

However, that doesn't always happen and we've been working

Shalimar Oliver:

through the hours of the night.

Shalimar Oliver:

Some situations you have to keep the search warrant open and have an officer

Shalimar Oliver:

stay on scene and you might have to return the next day if everything wasn't

Shalimar Oliver:

documented properly or the animals, you didn't have enough time to remove them.

Shalimar Oliver:

, you really wanna consider safety.

Shalimar Oliver:

I had, , a case in, , I think it was Michigan, and they worked through the

Shalimar Oliver:

hours of the night, and I just, I think that's really hard on your team when

Shalimar Oliver:

you're dealing with so many different animals, limited to no daylight.

Shalimar Oliver:

People are exhausted.

Shalimar Oliver:

So really thinking about what that would look like operationally

Shalimar Oliver:

with, you know, when you would call a stop to the night if needed.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but otherwise getting all the animals safe and secure to your

Shalimar Oliver:

temp shelter, unloading them.

Shalimar Oliver:

We forget about that.

Shalimar Oliver:

Sometimes we've loaded them up and it's like, oh my gosh, we haven't even

Shalimar Oliver:

gotten back to the shelter yet, and we've still gotta unload everybody.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, the behind the scenes people of setting up all the, the temp

Shalimar Oliver:

shelter and the warm bed at night for the animals to come home to.

Shalimar Oliver:

So there's so much planning and it sometimes it looks easy to

Shalimar Oliver:

others, but when you really know what b behind the scenes, what

Shalimar Oliver:

it looks like, it's intimidating.

Shalimar Oliver:

But if you wanna do it right, you gotta do it right.

Shalimar Oliver:

. So there, there's just a lot going on.

Shalimar Oliver:

That's in a nutshell.

Shalimar Oliver:

I mean, you've been there on days with us too, seeing how much

Shalimar Oliver:

goes into the actual seizure day.

Shalimar Oliver:

, but remembering too that we're just careful with how we're handling things.

Shalimar Oliver:

Chain of custody is really important for the criminal case too.

Shalimar Oliver:

So we've got, everything is logged and documented.

Shalimar Oliver:

, the rounds of, , vet assessment that they receive too.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, we will provide the initial triage on day of seizure, but in the

Shalimar Oliver:

coming days, , not too long, but in the coming two or three days when

Shalimar Oliver:

they're gonna get their full exams of something thorough, that's documented

Shalimar Oliver:

and it's more intense, and that way it, it outlines deeper issues.

Shalimar Oliver:

It may not have been acknowledged, uh, during their triage.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, because you do have to, you really have to think about if you're

Shalimar Oliver:

taking 200 animals and you have one veterinarian that's going to

Shalimar Oliver:

take time and you can't rush that.

Shalimar Oliver:

And you don't want to rush that cuz then you'll miss things.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, takes a lot of time, a lot of patience and just Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

Go with the flow mentality of just roll with it as it comes.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

I did a presentation on animals as evidence because of the importance

DrG:

of treating them as evidence.

DrG:

You know, we walk into, into a house and there's an animal that is

DrG:

clearly in distress and everybody like the, the emotional part mm-hmm.

DrG:

Wants to just grab that animal and take 'em out and run away.

DrG:

And you can't do that.

DrG:

No.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

You have to, it, it, yeah.

DrG:

It just, it sucks that you have to wait, but then you also have to

DrG:

think about the fact of how long has this animal been in this distress?

DrG:

So we wanna help 'em as soon as possible.

DrG:

But is waiting an extra few minutes going to make a big difference

DrG:

in the grand scheme of things?

DrG:

No.

DrG:

And it's more important to document it.

DrG:

And then the importance of documenting thing is on scene.

DrG:

Like for instance, if the animals are covered in fleas and you're

DrG:

going to treat them for fleas, before you take 'em to the shelter, you

DrG:

have to do a proper examination.

DrG:

Because by the time, if you wait to do the examination, when you get to

DrG:

the shelter, there's no more flees.

DrG:

Right?

DrG:

Because we already treat them.

DrG:

So how are we going to charge somebody with neglect because the animals

DrG:

are covered in flees if we don't have that evidence on the animal.

DrG:

Mm-hmm.

DrG:

So we have to have the, the exam, the, the pictures as thorough

DrG:

as possible, but efficient also.

DrG:

Right?

DrG:

That's where the difference between doing a forensic exam

DrG:

and doing a general practitioner.

DrG:

We don't have half an hour for every animal.

DrG:

We have to get through them head to toe.

DrG:

Really quick, but efficiently.

DrG:

And that's why there are so many people involved in each vet station, right?

DrG:

Because we have the vet, like, I mean, not that anybody wants me writing

DrG:

anything down, but I don't have the time to write something down.

DrG:

We need somebody that is trained to set that I can just spit out

DrG:

information and they can just do that.

DrG:

We have somebody that's doing the pictures, like everybody has a job to

DrG:

do so that everything can be done as quickly and efficiently as possible.

DrG:

And then understanding your limitations with each patient.

DrG:

You take an animal and it's really aggressive, okay, well

DrG:

what can we do with what we have?

DrG:

Right?

DrG:

So we still need to document it.

DrG:

We still need to do whatever we can do, but we may not be able

DrG:

to do everything that we can.

DrG:

So we need to assess safety.

DrG:

Uh, we don't think about those things in safety, and then we don't think about the

DrG:

simple parts of safety as people getting dehydrated or getting exhausted, right?

DrG:

So, Like

Shalimar Oliver:

we have to another, our safety officer on

Shalimar Oliver:

scene, they keep us in check.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yes.

Shalimar Oliver:

And they keep us typing, make sure we've had at least some kind

Shalimar Oliver:

of snack because yeah, what good are we if we fall apart and Yeah,

DrG:

exactly.

DrG:

Cause we don't think about it.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

And I've been in scenes where somebody has just passed out from heat exhaustion

DrG:

and you don't know it until it's too late because you keep fighting and you're like,

DrG:

oh, I'll be okay for another five minutes.

DrG:

I'll be okay for another 10 minutes.

DrG:

And you have no idea what your body's going through.

DrG:

So having that safety officer being like your mom coming around

DrG:

and being like, have you eaten?

DrG:

Did you drink some water?

DrG:

Have you gone potty?

DrG:

And you get annoyed and like, I get annoyed.

DrG:

I'm like, I'm a, I'm an adult.

DrG:

I'm a grown ass human being like, you don't need to tell

DrG:

me to go to the bathroom.

DrG:

No, no.

DrG:

But it's because, right.

DrG:

Because I'm so involved in what I'm doing that I'm not

DrG:

thinking about everything else.

DrG:

We don't think about simple things as tripping hazards.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

We're going to go somewhere and there are stairs that are not okay, and we don't

DrG:

think about it, but you have a safety officer saying, Hey, you cannot do that

DrG:

because you may fall and break your leg.

DrG:

And it's not just about how that affects you as a person.

DrG:

How does that affect everything?

DrG:

If I do something stupid, because I don't care what happens to me, but

DrG:

I fall and break my leg, what is that gonna do to the investigation?

DrG:

It's going to stop everything.

DrG:

It's going to create a problem.

DrG:

It's going to take me out of being able to help everybody else.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's no, it's an, it's a really important point to mention

Shalimar Oliver:

because I, I trip over air, like you'll see there's nothing around me, but I'll

Shalimar Oliver:

find a way and no, it is a great, , person to have on scene it to, to to mom.

Shalimar Oliver:

Mamas essentially.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

We need it.

Shalimar Oliver:

And we definitely, now that we, we have the safety officer position,

Shalimar Oliver:

like officially versus just trying to watch every out for everybody.

Shalimar Oliver:

Right.

Shalimar Oliver:

, yeah, I think we see the, the, the need that we've needed

Shalimar Oliver:

it now we, we understand Yes.

Shalimar Oliver:

And the significance of their role too.

DrG:

So then we have the animals and we've taken them to the shelter

DrG:

and then we have done our intake evaluation and done and done things to

DrG:

them to make sure that they're safe.

DrG:

So then where do we go from there?

. Shalimar Oliver:

So first of all, it's the ongoing care for the

. Shalimar Oliver:

animals that you've already planned.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Like what does that look like?

. Shalimar Oliver:

You've got the next, hopefully the next few weeks planned out for

. Shalimar Oliver:

appropriate staff, ongoing vet care.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Is a vet coming out to your shelter or, or temp shelter?

. Shalimar Oliver:

What does that look like?

. Shalimar Oliver:

, the documentation of the ongoing vet care that's provided as well

. Shalimar Oliver:

because you'll find more medical problems as the days come.

. Shalimar Oliver:

You may very well lose some animals.

. Shalimar Oliver:

, you know, a recent case that we both assisted with was we, we saw probably

. Shalimar Oliver:

like percentage wise, some of the most significant losses out of a smaller

. Shalimar Oliver:

population, but unexpected just how, , horrific their medical issues

. Shalimar Oliver:

were that they had to be euthanized.

. Shalimar Oliver:

, so making sure you're staying on top of documentation.

. Shalimar Oliver:

But then, so for me, I'm working with that investigator and the prosecutor

. Shalimar Oliver:

to stay on them and remind them.

. Shalimar Oliver:

So I become the mom of, Hey, , now that you've seized the animals, thank you.

. Shalimar Oliver:

, have you filed your petition for cost of care?

. Shalimar Oliver:

Have you filed this?

. Shalimar Oliver:

Have you considered what charges are going to look like?

. Shalimar Oliver:

, and then if it's a case that HSUS is assisting with, we are putting this all

. Shalimar Oliver:

together for them in an evidence binder.

. Shalimar Oliver:

So we've got everything that we can just hand to them.

. Shalimar Oliver:

We also offer, , we help with writing and compiling a charging

. Shalimar Oliver:

recommendation document.

. Shalimar Oliver:

So now that all these animals have been fully examined, , and, , anything else

. Shalimar Oliver:

that needed to come about in following days that maybe was found through X-rays,

. Shalimar Oliver:

other , labs that were run and things like that, , what can we circle back

. Shalimar Oliver:

to looking at animal one through 200?

. Shalimar Oliver:

Who with their condition could be considered for as a felony charge,

. Shalimar Oliver:

a misdemeanor charge, no charge.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Um, you don't wanna get too charge happy and like everybody gets a felony.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but you wanna have that conversation, , with law enforcement

. Shalimar Oliver:

and the prosecutor's office of like, from this, what do we think is fair and

. Shalimar Oliver:

reasonable to charge this person with?

. Shalimar Oliver:

And, , often they might need guidance with that cuz again, it's animal crimes case

. Shalimar Oliver:

that they're not used to, but we're pretty fair and reasonable with when we're,

. Shalimar Oliver:

you know, deducing that information and, , coming up with those recommendations.

. Shalimar Oliver:

But evidence collection, all your witness statements, uh, veterinary

. Shalimar Oliver:

statements are really important.

. Shalimar Oliver:

So you'll have a vet come out, do all the things, document you

. Shalimar Oliver:

know, the animal's conditions.

. Shalimar Oliver:

But you know what's real nice at the end of it all is having a vet's statement.

. Shalimar Oliver:

To say here's my overall expert opinion on the whole day, the conditions,

. Shalimar Oliver:

um, the environmental conditions versus the physical conditions

. Shalimar Oliver:

and why you think this is so poor.

. Shalimar Oliver:

, how this could have been prevented.

. Shalimar Oliver:

It's, it's vet's opportunity to give their, their personal but

. Shalimar Oliver:

professional opinion on something.

. Shalimar Oliver:

So putting all this information together, and as I said, we put it in a nice

. Shalimar Oliver:

big old evidence binder, makes it so much easier and you're more likely

. Shalimar Oliver:

to keep, not keep their interest, but just when you're helping each other,

. Shalimar Oliver:

it just takes that load off of them.

. Shalimar Oliver:

, but it makes sense and you've got all the evidence right in

. Shalimar Oliver:

front of you to, to show why.

. Shalimar Oliver:

, so what do we say?

. Shalimar Oliver:

Collecting evidence, the ongoing care of the animals and, you know,

. Shalimar Oliver:

thinking about what charges would look like, because the thing is you just

. Shalimar Oliver:

don't want to have all this effort.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And then it goes stale and gets swept under the rug by somebody somewhere.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And we've seen that happen too, with fantastic cases.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And you follow up like whatever happened and it's, they haven't

. Shalimar Oliver:

filed the charges yet and it's like, case was done six months ago.

. Shalimar Oliver:

What do you mean it hasn't been, or the hearing was never requested.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And that agency loses its opportunity to request the cost of care.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And, you know, , again, that usually I think for me is one of the bigger

. Shalimar Oliver:

things that falls under the rug is, is , agencies not filing for cost of

. Shalimar Oliver:

care in time cuz they don't know, or they know that it needed to be done,

. Shalimar Oliver:

but they didn't know it needed to be done in this certain amount of time.

. Shalimar Oliver:

It can be, you know, as soon as seizure, seven to 10 days from

. Shalimar Oliver:

seizure, 21 days from seizure.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Depends on each state and the laws.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And if you have a cost of care law and if you're in one of those poor states, it

. Shalimar Oliver:

doesn't, my heart aches and bleeds for you because, you know, as we know they are.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, I'm gonna pick on Kentucky.

. Shalimar Oliver:

I love Kentucky.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but they don't have a cost of care law, so they're holding till the case

. Shalimar Oliver:

goes through to trial, which can be, there's one county that did a puppy mill.

. Shalimar Oliver:

They were holding the dogs for over two years.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Those puppies grew up into adults that have been locked in a shelter.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Um, you know, not saying that's a bad thing, but compared to

. Shalimar Oliver:

a home environment mm-hmm.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Those puppies were raised in, um, unfortunately because it

. Shalimar Oliver:

was a small rural shelter, just didn't have access to resources.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And a lot of them were a kennel, crazy and had other issues.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And, you know, it, it at that point makes, uh, a shelter wanna give up on that.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Like, why are we, they've invested all these resources they have

. Shalimar Oliver:

to turn away their community.

. Shalimar Oliver:

So yeah, staying on top of all your court documents, making sure things

. Shalimar Oliver:

are filed and requested on time.

. Shalimar Oliver:

And if you don't know, ask, ask somebody.

. Shalimar Oliver:

Um, that might, because we've seen cases lost to issues like that.

DrG:

And people don't understand, that's where the rushing to get

DrG:

something done can be a problem.

DrG:

Right?

DrG:

Because we're taking the animals for, um, a bad situation and putting them in an

DrG:

impossible situation that they, you know, it's, it is not the fault of the shelter

DrG:

because they don't have the resources, but then they can't do anything about it.

DrG:

And then, and then what happens to these animals?

DrG:

The animals kind of continue to suffer.

DrG:

Mm-hmm.

DrG:

So, yes, they're not in that, in that puppy mill situation, but where they're

DrG:

at is better, but it's not what should be.

DrG:

Um, yeah.

DrG:

And

Shalimar Oliver:

it's what we're, you know, the promise that we are

Shalimar Oliver:

giving them by getting involved in that case, in that situation,

Shalimar Oliver:

we're not fulfilling our promise.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, I worked with, uh, shelter down south, uh, about two years

Shalimar Oliver:

ago, and, you know, it was great.

Shalimar Oliver:

Their sheriff's office went out and executed this warrant,

Shalimar Oliver:

seized almost a hundred dogs.

Shalimar Oliver:

They didn't tell the shelter at all.

Shalimar Oliver:

They just showed up.

Shalimar Oliver:

All the deputies just, I guess like literally just packed dogs into their car.

Shalimar Oliver:

And the shelter director called me just like, Mid stroke of like, I

Shalimar Oliver:

don't, I don't know what to do here.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, and she would, and that I, I myself was just flabbergasted cuz I,

Shalimar Oliver:

I don't know what, what do you do?

Shalimar Oliver:

And she did her best.

Shalimar Oliver:

She kept her, like the staff stayed behind.

Shalimar Oliver:

But that, that missing link in the communication, it's, it's imperative

Shalimar Oliver:

that you are all talking with each other, um, again to make sure that

Shalimar Oliver:

there is a successful outcome.

Shalimar Oliver:

So from the animal shelter to law enforcement, to your prosecutor, there's

Shalimar Oliver:

this pyramid and, and everyone needs to stay in contact and communication and

Shalimar Oliver:

continual cuz uh, for some situations I've actually recommended that they set

Shalimar Oliver:

up either weekly calls to do check-ins.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and that can be helpful for the prosecutor too, just to know how his

Shalimar Oliver:

evidence is doing and the shelter's able to communicate any concerns,

Shalimar Oliver:

, that may not otherwise be really.

Shalimar Oliver:

Taken seriously.

Shalimar Oliver:

When we especially start to talk about behavior issues that happens

Shalimar Oliver:

when these animals are kenneled for so long and they're in that type of

Shalimar Oliver:

environment, then we start to switch into different concerns and issues.

Shalimar Oliver:

So something they just may not consider, just like, just hold the dogs.

Shalimar Oliver:

Just hold the animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

You are the shelter.

Shalimar Oliver:

Just take them.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's your responsibility.

Shalimar Oliver:

Now I'm out.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's like, no, no.

Shalimar Oliver:

Right?

Shalimar Oliver:

It's

DrG:

not like a black hole ready to receive an unlimited number of animals.

DrG:

There's like a certain number of, of kennels that they have and also the,

DrG:

the support that the shelter has.

DrG:

It's kind of like going to a restaurant.

DrG:

People see a hundred tables and they're complaining because, well,

DrG:

all those 50 tables are empty.

DrG:

Why don't they sit me because they only have two waiters.

DrG:

So they can't take care of that whole side of the restaurant.

DrG:

It's the same thing.

DrG:

At a shelter, you may have 500 kennels, but if you only have two employees,

DrG:

you can only take in the animals that those two employees can take care of.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

So we have to, to understand what capacity means.

DrG:

Capacity is not number of cages.

DrG:

Capacity involves a lot of different stuff.

DrG:

Um, so how does the process of surrender works?

DrG:

Because sometimes it makes it easy if the person just gives up ownership

DrG:

of the animals and then it allows you to, to proceed with placement.

DrG:

But sometimes that doesn't happen.

DrG:

And I know it varies in states.

DrG:

Like I know that in, in Ohio, from what I understand, at 10 days do you have a

DrG:

court or a court date to assess surrender?

DrG:

So how does that process of overall work and what are the, the benefits

Shalimar Oliver:

of it?

Shalimar Oliver:

I mean, the surrenders preferred, you know, we, I, I, I'll speak for us.

Shalimar Oliver:

You know, we wanna make sure like nothing's coerced.

Shalimar Oliver:

This is a conversation that needs to be had casually, comfortably of, Hey,

Shalimar Oliver:

you know, looking at this right now in this situation, I, you know, in the best

Shalimar Oliver:

interest of the animals, would you be interested in surrendering ownership?

Shalimar Oliver:

That way we're able to do A, B, and C, get them out, uh, adopt them out, get them,

Shalimar Oliver:

you know, more medical care, et cetera.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, you think of, You know, a pregnant mother, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

Do we want her giving birth in a shelter environment?

Shalimar Oliver:

Would we like her to give birth, you know, at a rescues home, uh, in a home

Shalimar Oliver:

environment that's a lot more calm.

Shalimar Oliver:

So trying to have that conversation with them and then also ensuring that your

Shalimar Oliver:

department has the appropriate document.

Shalimar Oliver:

So good surrender form that contains verbiage.

Shalimar Oliver:

Cuz I can, I can tell you I've had, even when I was an officer, multiple

Shalimar Oliver:

people turn around after they've signed and surrendered and said, you coerced

Shalimar Oliver:

me, you forced me into that, and then wanna fight back to get custody.

Shalimar Oliver:

So making sure the language in your surrender form is strong and sufficient

Shalimar Oliver:

so that just in case any of that happens, you're all protected and covered.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, but surrender's a per preferred method so that we can get 'em out.

Shalimar Oliver:

And that way they don't stay a constant burden on the local shelter.

Shalimar Oliver:

Keep in mind too, you're not just talking about a county or a municipal shelter

Shalimar Oliver:

that's, you know, funded by taxpayers.

Shalimar Oliver:

You go a humane society, you're talking a nonprofit organization

Shalimar Oliver:

that's working solely off donations.

Shalimar Oliver:

They can bankrupt themselves with these types of large scale cases.

Shalimar Oliver:

And, um, people don't think about that cuz you're not always privy

Shalimar Oliver:

and allowed to advertise, fundraise, talk about, you know, it's, it's

Shalimar Oliver:

strategic and it's planned on what is allowed to be shared on those cases.

Shalimar Oliver:

So if they don't get enough attention for that case to fundraise, then

Shalimar Oliver:

how are they making the funds back to support everything they're gonna

Shalimar Oliver:

have to pay for these animals for x amount of time while they hold them.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, again, you want them out so that, that way you could do transports right

Shalimar Oliver:

to other neighboring, uh, counties, shelters, other states that maybe you

Shalimar Oliver:

have an MAA or MOU with so that you can work together when you're in need.

Shalimar Oliver:

And you have this agreement of like, Hey, we're empty up here in the

Shalimar Oliver:

northeast, you know, bring us, bring us, you know, 30 cats or what have you.

Shalimar Oliver:

But yeah, having to hold onto them is, is, is hard and pending your state and the

Shalimar Oliver:

laws, how long you have to hold onto them for, you know, we fall for stuff when it's

Shalimar Oliver:

like, oh, 30 days it says so right there.

Shalimar Oliver:

Well, the court system can override us sometimes and we might be

Shalimar Oliver:

forced to hold them even longer for whatever reason comes up.

Shalimar Oliver:

Right?

Shalimar Oliver:

Always something else that, again, plan for A, B, C, D, E, F, G, um, and you know,

Shalimar Oliver:

if we have to hold them even longer again, the resources that are have to be invested

Shalimar Oliver:

into that , especially when you're talking about anything pregnant and large animals.

Shalimar Oliver:

I mean, you are looking at heavy costs there, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

There's no such thing as a free horse.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so when we take these guys in, just the food alone, The, the hoof

Shalimar Oliver:

care and everything like that, it just, it adds up and it adds up so quickly.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, sometimes those resources are also hard to find, right?

Shalimar Oliver:

If they're for specialty animals or if there's a shortage in the area.

Shalimar Oliver:

, I remember, you know, we've looked for dog crates and, and we couldn't find any

Shalimar Oliver:

of the, you know, places that sell dog crates within a two three hour radius

Shalimar Oliver:

that had any, and we needed some extras.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so you've really gotta think about, you know, how long w could you potentially

Shalimar Oliver:

have to plan for, you know, 50 bales of hay a day or whatever you, you,

Shalimar Oliver:

you need to, to keep the animals fed.

Shalimar Oliver:

And will those resources al also always be available to you?

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, so yeah, surrender is definitely the preferr method, a hundred percent.

Shalimar Oliver:

But again, exercising that caution to not force.

Shalimar Oliver:

I've heard a few agencies or you know, individuals that will go right

Shalimar Oliver:

to that offender and be like, look, this could all go away if you just

Shalimar Oliver:

sign, sign the animals over now.

Shalimar Oliver:

And it's like, no, no, that's coercion.

Shalimar Oliver:

You can't barter, you cannot barter.

Shalimar Oliver:

That's actually legal.

Shalimar Oliver:

But you cannot barter and make a promise that's not your promise to make as an

Shalimar Oliver:

investigator, law enforcement official.

Shalimar Oliver:

, and one that we obviously don't support either.

Shalimar Oliver:

We're going into this with the understanding that regardless

Shalimar Oliver:

there's going to be something criminal that comes out of this.

Shalimar Oliver:

, so yeah, the preference is definitely surrender.

DrG:

One last thing that I wanna touch on is, would be like the fact of be being

DrG:

objective when we approach cases, right?

DrG:

Because there's so much emotion and you cannot approach, I'm not saying we're not

DrG:

gonna care about what we're seeing and we're not gonna have judgment, but we need

DrG:

to save those judgements for behind closed doors and to, for our personal time.

DrG:

When we are assessing these things, we need to look at it objectively.

DrG:

We cannot go into a case judging the person because we don't

DrG:

know what the, what the case about what brought 'em into it.

DrG:

And the defense attorneys can use subjective comments against you because

DrG:

they can say, well, you're biased.

DrG:

You are just, you, you just care about the animals because you feel bad for them.

DrG:

So then you are exaggerating things or you are, you know, saying things,

DrG:

you wanna remain objective about the whole thing and not share things

DrG:

that you're not allowed to share.

DrG:

Mm-hmm.

DrG:

Because then that can be another huge problem.

DrG:

Social media.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

I, I work with quite a few groups that they rescue an animal and immediately

DrG:

they're just sharing everything.

DrG:

Uh, they're sharing pictures, they're sharing the story, and they're

DrG:

sharing their emotional issues, uh, or their emotional views on it.

DrG:

Mm-hmm.

DrG:

And you know, they're, they may be doing it to get awareness or they may

DrG:

be doing it to raise funds because now they're gonna have this expense,

DrG:

but they don't understand how all of that can actually harm the case.

Shalimar Oliver:

Bless you for bringing that up.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, it's, That is something for me too and I've mentioned and a

Shalimar Oliver:

few other things I've spoken on.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, yeah, social media, keep it away.

Shalimar Oliver:

And it is the most detrimental thing ahead of seizure that you could share.

Shalimar Oliver:

Talk about you are doing no one favors.

Shalimar Oliver:

, you are compromising a criminal investigation and ultimately it's,

Shalimar Oliver:

you're not always gonna know.

Shalimar Oliver:

I've seen so many complainants that they rush out there and they post

Shalimar Oliver:

it on social media cuz they're like, you know, police didn't work fast

Shalimar Oliver:

enough, or They're not doing anything.

Shalimar Oliver:

No, it's, you are not privy to know that information.

Shalimar Oliver:

Right.

Shalimar Oliver:

You're not gonna report back to you that they're working on this secret undercover

Shalimar Oliver:

investigation that's, you know, that that's gonna culminate in the seizure of

Shalimar Oliver:

all those animals that they're gonna save.

Shalimar Oliver:

And now you go out and post this days before then we're

Shalimar Oliver:

gonna execute a search warrant.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, you know, we strongly, strongly ask people, if you really care about those

Shalimar Oliver:

situations, please let them do their job.

Shalimar Oliver:

That these things do not happen overnight.

Shalimar Oliver:

You don't just go in and shut the puppy mill down.

Shalimar Oliver:

You don't just go in and shut the hoarder down tomorrow.

Shalimar Oliver:

It takes time.

Shalimar Oliver:

And even if that timeframe isn't something that you're okay with, that's

Shalimar Oliver:

too bad If you want this done right, let the professional investigators

Shalimar Oliver:

investigate and do their job.

Shalimar Oliver:

And I've seen so many cases lost, uh, and, and sometimes it's

Shalimar Oliver:

been accidental and they were well-intentioned and didn't know.

Shalimar Oliver:

And sometimes I've seen it done blatantly that you knew and you

Shalimar Oliver:

still went and did this and which is really unfortunate, but, For most

Shalimar Oliver:

people that just don't understand.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

It completely compromises things and you have no clue what's being done.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's that whole picture of like the iceberg and then how deep it really goes.

Shalimar Oliver:

Mm-hmm.

Shalimar Oliver:

You don't know the behind the scenes communications and everything

Shalimar Oliver:

that's gonna come about for this.

Shalimar Oliver:

So wait and, and it can take a long time.

Shalimar Oliver:

We've had cases, even when I was an officer, I had a career case that W

Shalimar Oliver:

was with me from when I was with my F T O and I didn't execute my first

Shalimar Oliver:

search warrant until I like the month before I was leaving to come to H S U S.

Shalimar Oliver:

It took that long.

Shalimar Oliver:

Some of them happen.

Shalimar Oliver:

We don't want all of them to happen and take that long,

Shalimar Oliver:

but sometimes they just do.

Shalimar Oliver:

We just, and there's a reason, right.

Shalimar Oliver:

There's usually a reason why it's taken that long.

Shalimar Oliver:

We have to build enough evidence.

Shalimar Oliver:

There's not enough something's missing.

Shalimar Oliver:

, We don't have the right person.

Shalimar Oliver:

There might be a different district attorney in office, there might

Shalimar Oliver:

be a different prosecutor, things that are out of our control.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, social media can certainly be advantageous.

Shalimar Oliver:

So like I was just talking about with the nonprofits that need to raise those

Shalimar Oliver:

funds, but that communication also needs to be had with law enforcement.

Shalimar Oliver:

When those seizures are done, hey, what can we share?

Shalimar Oliver:

What can we promote and how?

Shalimar Oliver:

Right.

Shalimar Oliver:

Because last thing you wanna see is, like you said, that's what made me like Twitch

Shalimar Oliver:

was when you see evidence photos up on Facebook and it's like, no, you did not.

Shalimar Oliver:

You did not.

Shalimar Oliver:

Right.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, and you know, it's a real shame, but, uh, again,

Shalimar Oliver:

communicating first ahead of time.

Shalimar Oliver:

So if you, you are a shelter or organization that's gonna be involved

Shalimar Oliver:

in removing those animals, talk to someone first, law enforcement,

Shalimar Oliver:

prosecutor, what can we share?

Shalimar Oliver:

We need to promote, you know, for our, and sometimes it's been, um, Something

Shalimar Oliver:

as simple as inviting media back to the temp shelter, back to the shelter,

Shalimar Oliver:

uh, to look around the, you know, shelter that the animals are housed at.

Shalimar Oliver:

Or can we put in a video or photos of some of the ones that, again, you get

Shalimar Oliver:

confirmation from the law enforcement and prosecutor to share, you know,

Shalimar Oliver:

that you've taken after seizures.

Shalimar Oliver:

So they're not from the scene, they're from the shelter, um, still depicting the

Shalimar Oliver:

bad condition that they're in, but um, not having to use an actual evidence photo.

Shalimar Oliver:

That was, I'm so appreciate you for bringing that up too, cuz I've, uh, we've,

Shalimar Oliver:

we've lost a few cases that way, sadly.

DrG:

Yeah.

DrG:

You know, the, the people that I work with, they're

DrG:

very passionate about animals.

DrG:

And whenever you guys, for instance, call me for a case,

DrG:

I have to block my schedule.

DrG:

I have to change my schedule so they know that something's up, but

DrG:

they by now know, I tell 'em I'm going on a super secret mission.

DrG:

I don't know where.

DrG:

So I'll let you know when I get there.

DrG:

And they, and they understand and it's kind of, it's kind of exciting and they

DrG:

just can't wait to know what's going on.

DrG:

But it's the understanding that one person leaking something

DrG:

can just destroy everything.

DrG:

And then once the case happens, like the only things that I share are

DrG:

the things that like you guys share through your press release so that I

DrG:

know that I'm not sharing something that is potentially damaging because

DrG:

how horrible to spend all this time and effort and money and then one post

DrG:

on social media, tear it all down.

DrG:

I mean, it's just not worth it.

Shalimar Oliver:

I've, um, I did have to explain that once and, and I was glad

Shalimar Oliver:

that it was raised cuz people were like, well you are out there sharing this.

Shalimar Oliver:

And it's like, well here have this understanding though.

Shalimar Oliver:

Part of our pre-planning and having conversations with the,

Shalimar Oliver:

let's say a sheriff's office and the prosecutor's office is, we

Shalimar Oliver:

engage in an M O U with them.

Shalimar Oliver:

And that memorandum of understanding is an agreement to say here, H S

Shalimar Oliver:

U S, this is everything we as the Sheriff's Office need from you.

Shalimar Oliver:

And we have this discussion going back and forth with powers that be, that review all

Shalimar Oliver:

these documents from a legal standpoint.

Shalimar Oliver:

And they review everything.

Shalimar Oliver:

And in it though, we do outline because we are a nonprofit, the need to fundraise

Shalimar Oliver:

so that we can be out there to support these agencies to do these cases.

Shalimar Oliver:

So we have it in writing, we've had these conversations.

Shalimar Oliver:

We have our P I O or our media manager connect with the local PIO

Shalimar Oliver:

o or media managers so that all of their talking points are on point and

Shalimar Oliver:

planned that the press releases, the verbiage in them is safe and clean,

Shalimar Oliver:

that that won't compromise anything.

Shalimar Oliver:

And that essentially all of the footage and everything, the press

Shalimar Oliver:

releases that we put out are reviewed by law enforcement and or the

Shalimar Oliver:

prosecutor's office before they go out.

Shalimar Oliver:

Somebody has to look and approve the things.

Shalimar Oliver:

So we keep it clean.

Shalimar Oliver:

Last thing we want to do especially is compromise anything.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, uh, there is that, uh, planning that people don't think

Shalimar Oliver:

about, um, that goes into that.

Shalimar Oliver:

And if you're not having those conversations, you should be

Shalimar Oliver:

having those conversations.

DrG:

Absolutely.

DrG:

Well, thank you so much for sharing all this information.

DrG:

I think that it's been really, really helpful in kind of going through the

DrG:

whole process and to understand what the, the different parts that are involved

DrG:

in making the whole thing work mm-hmm.

DrG:

As well as the things that can make it go wrong.

DrG:

Um, and in general, if people need help or assistance, how do they get

DrG:

a hold of your team to know if it's something that you guys would be

Shalimar Oliver:

involved with?

Shalimar Oliver:

Yeah, I mean, you can reach out to us.

Shalimar Oliver:

We have, um, like a lot of forms online.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, you can email animalcruelty@humanesociety.org.

Shalimar Oliver:

You can email me, soliver@humanesociety.org.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, contact Dr.

Shalimar Oliver:

G and she will find a way to connect us.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, how I've got the one from, um, end of last year was thru you.

Shalimar Oliver:

So, um, yeah, there's a variety of different ways, but essentially

Shalimar Oliver:

emailing, , And yeah, Dr.

Shalimar Oliver:

G is probably you, you're the best link at this point cuz everyone knows how

Shalimar Oliver:

to get ahold of you and message you.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, even through social media just to reach out, we usually, we have

Shalimar Oliver:

like a state director for most of the states, like 30, 35 of them.

Shalimar Oliver:

So you could email your state's name @humanesociety.org.

Shalimar Oliver:

But either way, if you go online, you'll find something that'll connect you to us.

Shalimar Oliver:

And yeah, we are definitely be happy to help because there's so many cases that

Shalimar Oliver:

we know these, these folks are walking away from if they're walking away because

Shalimar Oliver:

they just don't have the resources.

Shalimar Oliver:

It's like, we wanna know, we're very busy.

Shalimar Oliver:

This, this has probably been our team's busiest year.

Shalimar Oliver:

Uh, and I feel like we say that.

Shalimar Oliver:

Every year, like 2022, like that was the craziest year about lives.

Shalimar Oliver:

And people were just like, you know, requests are, are high, um, and frequent.

Shalimar Oliver:

And so, , that's because we know, and you all know that there's that

Shalimar Oliver:

shortage out there for resources.

Shalimar Oliver:

I don't know what the answer is for that right now, but I think as long

Shalimar Oliver:

as we're all working together in some capacity, we're trying and we wanna help.

Shalimar Oliver:

So if everything, if the universe aligns perfectly and we can

Shalimar Oliver:

coordinate something to come out and help, then we're all about it.

Shalimar Oliver:

And sometimes it may not work.

Shalimar Oliver:

Um, But you don't

DrG:

know until you try.

DrG:

Right?

DrG:

We don't know until we have that

Shalimar Oliver:

chat.

Shalimar Oliver:

So let's, let's talk about it first and see, you know, what we can do.

Shalimar Oliver:

And there's some, um, investigators I've worked with where I'm like, you know,

Shalimar Oliver:

we don't, you don't have enough, but let's work on it and build it this way.

Shalimar Oliver:

Mm-hmm.

Shalimar Oliver:

And you know, sure enough, they'll come see me in six, 12 months,

Shalimar Oliver:

like, Hey, remember this, and we're right back at it again.

Shalimar Oliver:

So everything like you've said is circumstantial variable.

Shalimar Oliver:

Every case is different.

Shalimar Oliver:

And you, we just, we're just trying to roll with it as best as we can because

Shalimar Oliver:

there's such a need from all these amazing ACOs and humane offices, law enforcement,

Shalimar Oliver:

code enforcement, they're, they're doing code enforcement and animal control.

Shalimar Oliver:

How I, I don't know.

Shalimar Oliver:

But um, yeah, all these people that are just coming together and reaching out,

Shalimar Oliver:

so hopefully we can help in some way.

Shalimar Oliver:

But, you know, I appreciate and, and you know, we couldn't do what we're doing

Shalimar Oliver:

if we didn't have someone like you, Dr.

Shalimar Oliver:

G, cuz you are bloody fantastic.

Shalimar Oliver:

You.

DrG:

Well, it's easy to work with you guys because you got your

DrG:

stuff together, so it's right.

DrG:

It makes it easy for me and it, I don't know.

DrG:

And I, I've learned so much from, from working with you guys, so I wanna thank

DrG:

you for, for everything, you know?

DrG:

Um, I'm, I'm becoming more of an expert because you guys are making me an expert.

DrG:

Glad

Shalimar Oliver:

to be about Yeah.

Shalimar Oliver:

We're, we're helping each other, so.

Shalimar Oliver:

Yes.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

It's a symbiotic relationship.

DrG:

Yes.

DrG:

There's no parasitism going on.

DrG:

Well, thank you very much and I hope to work with you soon, and I hope

DrG:

to have you back soon to talk about some of the fun cases and to talk

DrG:

about other things like puppy mills.

DrG:

Mm,

Shalimar Oliver:

yes.

Shalimar Oliver:

Nope.

Shalimar Oliver:

Anytime.

Shalimar Oliver:

Anytime.

Shalimar Oliver:

Thank you for having me.

DrG:

Awesome.

DrG:

And to our listeners, thank you for listening and thank you for caring.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.