Animal Crimes and the LINK with guest Mark Randell

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Dr. G: Hi and welcome to

the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today we have a special guest

from the UK, Mark Randall.

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Mark is an international specialist

in crimes against animals and retired

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senior detective for the UK police.

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So thank you so much, Mark, for

joining us today at the Junction.

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Hi.

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So, uh, to get started, can you tell

us about your background, kind of,

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you know, where you started and how

you ended up where you're at now?

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Mark Randell: Okay, I'll try and summarize

it because I have a long policing career,

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but I spent, uh, I joined very young

in the police and I started working

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with Uniform Patrol, um, and then I

started working, I started moving on to

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undercover operations, covert, covert ops,

drug work, narcotic work, intelligence

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operations, criminal analysis, and

then, um, I, uh, Got a few promotions,

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and I started being responsible for

serious crime and counterterrorism, and

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particularly international collaborations,

so criminals and terrorists that were

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transiting around the world and looking

at trying to preempt what they were doing.

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Looking mostly at that covert op,

so undercover kind of work was

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probably my specialism overall.

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Um, I retired about 13 years ago and had

the opportunity, I've always loved being

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around animals, I had the opportunity to

actually transfer some of the skills I

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picked up over that policing career, um,

to help animals and that's really what

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I've been doing for the last 13 years.

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I suppose because I've tended to have a, a

global perspective on things, it's enabled

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me to look beyond, uh, certainly beyond

the UK borders, beyond Europe, and I've

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had, I've been able to do work probably

in about five different continents.

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So it's given me a great overview

around the world, really, of what

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actually is very similar problems.

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Dr. G: I see that in that a lot

of people think that, you know,

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like our problems here in the U.

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S.

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are just our problems.

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And nobody realizes that

animal crimes occur everywhere.

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There may be a little bit of a

difference in the, the types of crimes

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or how they are, how they occur.

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But overall, I think that, I

mean, there is a connection and

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we can all learn from each other.

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And as you have mentioned, some

of these crimes do cross borders.

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So we have to, we have to take

that into consideration, right?

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Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, you've got,

I mean, not, not every crime problem is

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the same, clearly, but there are shared,

um, the way that crimes develop within

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communities, within society, are, they

share the same pathways, um, and that

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happens from country to country, from

crime type to crime type, to oversimplify

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that, if the problems are the same, then

very often the solutions are the same, and

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therefore it's really important to learn

from each other's experiences, um, as well

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as, as you say, there are actual crime

problems that they cross borders anyway.

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And that's perhaps, you know, 20, 30 years

ago, they physically had to cross borders.

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Now, of course, they could

do that electronically.

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So you've got another level on top of what

traditionally has been cross border crime.

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You've now got crimes which originate

on the internet and can reach, you

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know, 100 countries in seconds.

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So tackling animal abuse or human

abuse or any other crimes requires

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collaboration, but it also requires

understanding what the motivation is and

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what's behind it to be able to share the

solutions to stop animal and other crime.

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Dr. G: So one of the main things that

we that I want to talk with you is about

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the importance of the link between animal

cruelty and interpersonal violence.

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I think that animal people that

love animals are worried about the

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impact that the violence has on the

animal, but we don't look beyond that.

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Uh, same thing, people that are

concerned about human violence don't

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really comprehend the importance of

those animals as sentinels or as the

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first part, the first step of, uh,

of that violence, violent behavior.

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So can you explain to our

listeners what is the link?

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Mark Randell: I suppose when, um, a lot of

people grow up looking at, uh, crime and,

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uh, policing, law enforcement, perhaps

through the media, watching Netflix,

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watching documentaries, and, and for

them, a crime scene, uh, stereotypically

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is, uh, you know, a body laying on the

ground with a knife in it, or gunshots

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And the numbers all around it,

photographs taken, and that's a

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sort of stereotypical crime scene.

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But crime scenes are much,

much wider than that.

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Um, so there could be a, you know,

domestic abuse crime scene, for

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example, may involve child abuse,

it may involve animal abuse.

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If you look at an animal abuse crime

scene, it may well involve plenty

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of other things in relation to

harm to children, harm to domestic

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survivors of human abuse and so.

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Those crimes, those crime scenes

cross over between all sorts

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of types of, of criminality.

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Uh, traditionally in, in a lot of

countries they've been separated, so

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responsibility and resources have been

put into tackling human crime, as it

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should do, and animal crime is quite

often left a little bit on the shelf

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as if it's somebody else's problem.

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Animal charities, uh, 501s, you

know, different organizations pick up

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the pieces from, from animal crime.

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When actually, looking at it quite

often, it's an indicator of what's been

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happening within a relationship, what's

been happening within a family unit, or

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what's been happening within a community.

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That could be from The connection between

domestic abuse and animal abuse, or

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it could be between dog fighting and

serious crime within the community.

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So it's, or it could actually be, and

one of the subjects I've done quite a lot

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of research into is animal sexual abuse.

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You know, the link between animal

sexual abuse and child sexual

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abuse is very, very strong.

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So it's, it's, it's really important to...

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Whilst to consider a link, there is a

link, it's to, we shouldn't be separating

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them in the first place, you know, a,

a, a one crime type, uh, is very, very

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closely connected to another crime

type, and, and actually, often it's the

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motivation of the perpetrator that, that

matters, rather than what the technical

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crime is that that person has committed,

why did they commit that crime, um,

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and, As opposed to what the species of

their subject was at the end of the day.

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So that motivation, particularly if

you want to stop it happening, you

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need to be looking at that motivation.

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Dr. G: We were discussing that October

is National Domestic Abuse Awareness

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Month and that is, uh, it is important

to bring the awareness as far as

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not just the injury to the animals.

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Some people may think, well,

this person is abusing the animal

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because they're just abusive.

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So just how they abuse the animal,

they abuse the people, but I don't

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think a lot of individuals are aware

of the aspect of control, the animals

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being used to control the at that

time, a domestic violence victim.

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Mark Randell: Yes, I mean, , animal

abuse can be committed for a

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variety of different reasons, for

a variety of different motivations.

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Um, one study that I looked at

recently, um, was particularly

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relevant for me in that an animal

brought into the home is far more

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likely to be abused than one which was

originally in there in the first place.

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And I think that probably goes to the

heart of what a domestic abuser does,

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in that they create, I'm generalizing

a little bit here, of course, but they,

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they, they create a situation whereby they

allow their victim to build a relationship

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with an animal which if you're in

a domestic or a stressful situation

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could actually be far more important

than if you're not in that situation.

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So they, so the abuser actually cultivates

this relationship because of course

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they can then exploit that relationship.

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And because many abusers are so

manipulative, they actually go to

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that length so they could potentially

bring a puppy into the, or a dog

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or a cat into the family unit.

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So that their, um, their victim, um,

builds that relationship because they

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rely on that, they need that comfort.

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Um, you know, another study shows

that 70 percent of cat owners actually

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have cats because they feel lonely

and they build that relationship.

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Um, the victim builds that relationship

with the owner and therefore that makes

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it much easier for the perpetrator

to exploit it to be able to then

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exert that pressure, that control.

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I wouldn't say domestic abuse is my,

my understanding, it's, it's always

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about control, but it's certainly

very, very relevant in there.

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Um, most of my understanding of how

criminals and abusers operate comes from

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the undercover work that I used to do.

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Um, specifically I did some work with,

uh, child sex offenders for a while.

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Um, I'm working within prisons and

within, um, in, in society on, on

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how child sex abusers minds work.

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Um, not from a study perspective,

but actually because I needed

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to infiltrate them to be able to

tackle that kind of investigation.

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And, and I can see a lot of similarity

in terms of the control and the,

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the, the deviousness, the, the, the

planning that goes in to, to that.

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So I'd see it present

within domestic abuse.

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I see it within a lot

of animal abuse cases.

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And.

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To be able to understand how to tackle

both of those types of crime, you need

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to understand how the perpetrators

are thinking and what they're doing

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and put, putting actions in place to

prevent that happening in the first

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place, or at least identifying it.

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Dr. G: And some people , there's a

lot of victim blaming is how I see it.

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And it's like, why did you not get out?

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Why did you not do anything?

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Some people think that people

that are victims of domestic

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violence are either uneducated.

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Or are not financially stable.

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And this is a problem

that transcends, right?

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Like socioeconomic, racial,

cultural, gender education.

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Like anybody can be a victim.

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Uh, in one of the classes that I'm

currently taking, uh, there was a victim

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statement or a survivor statement because

she is no longer in that situation.

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Where she was describing how she had

a degree from Harvard, I believe.

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And she was doing really well.

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And this person that she loved just

isolated her from everybody and then

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she she had an animal and then the

abuse started and that's what became so

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difficult to get out So I think that it

is very important for us to understand

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The, you know, kind of, kind of how,

how things happen and to understand the

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struggles that people in those, in those

situations are undergoing to better

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be able to help because another thing

that I learned that was, I, I guess

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a little bit surprising was that 70

percent of the, at least in the United

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States, 70 percent of the injuries.

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Uh, serious injuries or even

people that end up being killed

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is during that process of leaving.

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Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, I don't

know if you've had, um, I don't know, I

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mean, it's not my book, so I don't know

if I'm allowed to talk about a book,

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but I don't know if you've ever read,

um, Jane Monkton Smith's control book

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on dangerous relationships and how they

end in murder, but it's a brilliant book

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that talks about the end stages of an

abusive relationship turns into homicide.

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Um, and that's exa that's exactly it.

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There is...

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When I joined the police, uh, a senior

detective, you know, spoke to me at

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one point and said every, you know,

every domestic abuse case you need

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to be going to is potentially murder,

and that's how you need to treat it.

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Um, and we know that...

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Victims will potentially stay

in a family, in a domestic abuse

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relationship through up to 50 incidents,

potentially, before they even leave.

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You know, I suppose if you've got,

you know, if you've got money,

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if you've got a support network,

you may leave more quickly.

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But if you've got pets, if you've

got dependents, and pets are

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dependents, animals are dependents,

you need, you know, you're going to

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be thinking, what happens with that?

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Because.

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You can't, you can't leave your dependents

behind and leave that abusive situation.

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So what do you do?

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Where are you going to take that animal?

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What's your support

network for that animal?

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Um, and if you do leave that animal

behind, of course that's the lever

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that your perpetrator is potentially

going to use to get you to return.

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So, that, uh, animal needs to

be taken somewhere safe, foster

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care system, and permanently.

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Which then causes issues over property.

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I understand, understand those

issues, but, um, That will be a,

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uh, a tool for the perpetrator to

use to get you to go back again.

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So, it's important to understand

that, uh, being able to leave

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the animal has to be possible.

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Knowing that the animal is going to

be safe and it's looked after, and it

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won't be used by the perpetrator to,

to get you to return, which potentially

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is then going to turn into, you know,

more abuse and even a domestic homicide.

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Dr. G: Yes, some of the statistics

that they gave us is that the average

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um, victim takes about seven different

Attempts to leave that relationship

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and, and it's always because also

these, these abusers are very good at

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controlling and they're very good at

charming their way back and the, and the

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spouse, the partner, and not always a

woman, sometimes men can be also victims

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of, of domestic violence, it, they're

looking for that original person, right?

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That the person that they fell in love

with, they think that that person is

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still in there and they keep coming back.

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But it also brings us back to the

importance of making sure that the

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animals are taken care of, because

you cannot expect somebody to leave

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and leave their animals behind.

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Um, there are, there are several

organizations here in the U.

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S.

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that are working at creating more co

sheltering so that individuals can

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leave and bring their animals with

them without that, that concern.

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Is that something that we are seeing,

uh, more also in, in other countries?

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Mark Randell: I mean, in England

and Wales, which obviously

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I've got the best knowledge of,

there's two national projects.

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One specifically looks after dogs

and one specifically looks after

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cats, but there are a number of

smaller ones too, in local areas.

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Um, so we have a freedom project, which

looks after, we'll take care of dogs,

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um, and a, um, the Paws Protect will look

after cats, um, and of course they need

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to be taken nationally anyway, because

a lot of dogs are recognisable, you

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can't just take them down the street,

because the perpetrator will see them.

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Um, so they need to be, there needs to

be an element of secrecy in relation

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to where you're actually going to

keep the animals, but it's, it's

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critically important they exist.

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I know in Australia, in New South

Wales, for example, um, Some of those

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are funded by the local government

because of the need, um, The bottom

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line is you've gotta get victim

survivors outta abusive situations.

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You've gotta get 'em for

their own protection, but also

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because it's potentially gonna

turn into a domestic homicide.

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You know, we, we don't want, we know

the numbers of those and we know

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that coercive control is the type of

domestic abuse behavior, which is most

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likely to lead to domestic homicide.

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So it's really important

to be able to get them out.

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And so that's where investment

can help so that at least people

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know that if they leave with their

animal, They can take it somewhere.

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I did some training in, uh, in

Italy a couple of years ago.

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And I went into a police station, um, and

as part of the reception for, for victims

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that were leaving abusive situations,

there was a facility there for young

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children, but there was also some very

basic facility there for dogs and cats.

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So, you know, at three o'clock in

the morning, if you need to get

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out, take two children with you.

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You can take your dog or cat to the

police station and it'll be protected.

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Uh, that was quite a, uh, um,

an enlightening moment for me.

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Um, you know, there are some

really good processes around

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the world that can be shared.

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And the Italian project is

a particularly good one.

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Dr. G: And in the, in the topic of

children, the children are not just

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being the victim of abuse, but living

in those situations also increases

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the risk that those kids are going to

grow up and become abusers themselves.

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Or, or even , commit

animal cruelty offences.

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Mark Randell: Yes, I mean, I, you

know, children who witness animal

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cruelty are more than eight times more

likely to be perpetrators themselves.

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Um, and I think something like 60

70 percent of animal cruelty in the

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home occurs in front of children.

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Domestic, expect, children who are abused

to domestic abuse are three times more

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likely to exhibit cruelty to animals.

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And in fact, last month, The United

Nations, uh, through General Comment

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26, have, have actually recognized

the impact of, uh, animal abuse

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committed in front of children.

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Um, I've been training in

Ukraine for a number of years,

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before the war, particularly.

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They have a, in their criminal

code, they have, um, extra jail time

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for offenders who actually commit

animal abuse in front of children

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because they consider it so serious.

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The UK has just put it into its

cruelty sentencing guidelines,

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the recognition of animal abuse

committed in front of children.

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It's something which does seem to

be gathering momentum in a number

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of countries around the world.

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Dr. G: I think here it's that's

being recognized in things like

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dogfighting, whereas it's a felony

if you bring a child to a dogfight.

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Right.

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Um, so, uh, kind of

switching track a little bit.

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I know that you have done some work with

dogfighting, both locally and globally.

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So can you explain to us a little

bit of your work with dogfighting

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and the importance of the dogfighting

with human crimes with other crimes?

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Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, I started,

in fact, dogfighting was the, the,

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um, the crime, really, that got me

to, uh, understanding why animal

288

: 00:18:34

abuse really happens in isolation.

289

: 00:18:35

And I was, I don't know, sometime in

the: 1990

290

: 00:18:40

team, uh, who were running guns around the

UK, um, but they were also dogfighters.

291

: 00:18:44

But the way that our structures

worked, um, worked, police didn't

292

: 00:18:48

look at dogfighting, and so I ignored

it, and as a result, we didn't

293

: 00:18:52

tackle that organized crime gang.

294

: 00:18:54

And, uh, I found that frustrating,

is that we failed because we, we

295

: 00:18:59

failed to look at dogfighting.

296

: 00:19:01

So, in, in, from about 2013, but

particularly from: 2016

297

: 00:19:06

looking at global dogfighting.

298

: 00:19:08

Uh, most of my work at that time

was looking in the Balkans, in

299

: 00:19:11

Greece, and in Bulgaria, and

other places in Eastern Europe.

300

: 00:19:16

And it was looking at the links between

organized crime and dogfighting.

301

: 00:19:19

And, uh, specifically we looked at,

A gang operating out of Bulgaria who

302

: 00:19:24

were shipping fighting dogs to about 50

different countries around the world.

303

: 00:19:28

Uh, and one area they were working

on was in Greece, where the, having

304

: 00:19:35

briefed the Hellenic police in Greece,

they did a number of raids and made

305

: 00:19:38

arrests of crime gangs who were running

protection rackets around the seaports.

306

: 00:19:44

Uh, and they were also dogfighters.

307

: 00:19:46

So...

308

: 00:19:47

Investigating that dogfighting properly

allowed them to be able to take down

309

: 00:19:51

organized crime gangs, seize cash,

seize guns and, and prevent people from

310

: 00:19:58

being threatened in their community.

311

: 00:20:00

So, it just shows really that if

tackling dogfighting is important anyway

312

: 00:20:04

from an animal welfare perspective.

313

: 00:20:06

But if serious, if those responsible

for serious and organized crime

314

: 00:20:10

work take dogfighting seriously,

they can actually use it as a, as an

315

: 00:20:14

opportunity to find a different angle

into their organized crime gangs.

316

: 00:20:19

Dr. G: I had my first.

317

: 00:20:21

, experience working with

dog fighting last year.

318

: 00:20:24

Uh, I was able to go, and it, the

case is still in progress, so I

319

: 00:20:27

cannot talk too much about it.

320

: 00:20:29

But, it was a very interesting perspective

as far as going to the, going to the

321

: 00:20:34

location, seeing how the animals are

being taken care of, or not taken care of.

322

: 00:20:38

Um, but then more importantly, all the

other things that were associated with it.

323

: 00:20:43

There were guns, there were

drugs, there was money.

324

: 00:20:45

And in some of these, there's human

trafficking, uh, child pornography

325

: 00:20:50

and all of these other crimes.

326

: 00:20:51

So just again, how that link between

the animal violence and the, and

327

: 00:20:56

the human issues are occurring.

328

: 00:21:00

Mark Randell: I think for me, um,

the main answer is to be keeping

329

: 00:21:05

an open mind and police officers.

330

: 00:21:07

particularly should be doing that anyway.

331

: 00:21:09

So when they turn up at, you

know, I started the conversation

332

: 00:21:11

talking about crime scenes.

333

: 00:21:13

Um, if you talk, turn up at an

animal crime scene, a human crime

334

: 00:21:16

scene, it's considering that it may

well include all types of crime.

335

: 00:21:21

Um, and therefore you talk to, you

know, you look at dog fighting.

336

: 00:21:25

It's interesting to talk about child

pornography because that's something which

337

: 00:21:29

has featured certainly in an investigation

in Spain that Um, and in a couple of

338

: 00:21:35

other areas, and the other thing that

does seem to pop up every now and again

339

: 00:21:38

is radical extremism and dogfighting.

340

: 00:21:41

So, it could well link

to, uh, to terrorism.

341

: 00:21:45

I mean, there's a

particular case of the link.

342

: 00:21:47

That happened actually, um, in New

Jersey, I don't know if you're aware

343

: 00:21:52

of the case in New Jersey where police

were called to a, a dog that had been

344

: 00:21:57

stabbed, um, and when they looked at

the dog that had been stabbed, they

345

: 00:22:01

actually asked the question, you know,

what's the motivation behind this?

346

: 00:22:06

What they identified was a radical, uh,

an individual who'd been radicalized into

347

: 00:22:12

Islam and had, uh, built a pressure cooker

bomb which was destined for New York City.

348

: 00:22:18

So by investigating that stabbed dog,

and the dog was fine at the end of it,

349

: 00:22:23

I understand, by investigating that

professionally and properly, they actually

350

: 00:22:26

managed to deal with a terrorism case.

351

: 00:22:30

And for me, that's one of the most

sort of extreme examples of the link

352

: 00:22:33

of between animal and human abuse, but

also why you should deal with animal

353

: 00:22:38

cases professionally, looking at

motivation, looking at the crime scenes.

354

: 00:22:44

, Dr. G: you brought up earlier as

far as the animal sexual abuse

355

: 00:22:47

and why it is important to,

um, to investigate these cases.

356

: 00:22:51

I have had the opportunity to work

with a couple of cases, and what has

357

: 00:22:56

been the most frustrating for me as a

forensic veterinarian is the , the lack

358

: 00:23:02

of understanding of some prosecutors,

some attorneys, to I guess to take the

359

: 00:23:09

word of the veterinarian in saying these

are the signs that we're seeing this

360

: 00:23:12

is what we believe happened and then

trying to prosecute it not understanding

361

: 00:23:16

the concerns with with children and

that and that's one of the things

362

: 00:23:22

that I would like to see is animal.

363

: 00:23:26

sexual abuse being part of like the

sexual offender registry, because I

364

: 00:23:31

think that there is, you know, it would

be important, uh, from what research I

365

: 00:23:36

found is that at least about 30 percent

of Individuals that commit sexual

366

: 00:23:42

crimes against animals are likely to

commit a sexual crime against a child.

367

: 00:23:46

It's still a defenseless victim.

368

: 00:23:47

It's still, you know, an innocent victim.

369

: 00:23:50

Are there such registries in the

UK and are animal sexual crimes

370

: 00:23:55

taken more seriously than here?

371

: 00:23:58

Mark Randell: Sadly, no.

372

: 00:23:59

They, um, I mean, sexual crimes, um,

The jail sentences for animal sexual

373

: 00:24:05

crimes, specifically, and they're very,

very limited, what constitutes an animal

374

: 00:24:10

sexual crime in the UK, um, uh, is

less than it is for animal abuse, the

375

: 00:24:15

maximum jail sentence, which is a shame.

376

: 00:24:17

Um, we have a piece of legislation which

looks at, um, Child Abuse Online and

377

: 00:24:24

Animal Sexual Abuse Online and over, over

a year I looked at those and 73 percent

378

: 00:24:29

of the cases where Child Abuse Online was,

was found, Animal Sexual Abuse was found,

379

: 00:24:35

and that seems to be a common theme.

380

: 00:24:38

Um, there's a recent case in Australia

which many, uh, listeners may have seen,

381

: 00:24:43

uh, in relation to the Crocodile Guy.

382

: 00:24:45

I'm not going to give him satisfaction

in talking about his name.

383

: 00:24:49

of online abuse, um, which

is, is not a one off, sadly.

384

: 00:24:54

It's happened.

385

: 00:24:55

I mean, of course, it's not a

one off because he was linked

386

: 00:24:57

into the Telegram channel.

387

: 00:24:58

Uh, I did a case in Ukraine where on

the VKontakte channel based in Russia,

388

: 00:25:03

there was a, um, there was another

case of a 24 year old that was killing

389

: 00:25:07

animals, um, and broadcasting it online.

390

: 00:25:09

And of course, there's only a benefit

doing that if people are watching it.

391

: 00:25:12

So there's a, there's a huge network

out there which needs to be dealt with.

392

: 00:25:17

So, it doesn't happen, um, animal

sexual abuse offenders do not get put

393

: 00:25:23

on a sex offenders register in the UK.

394

: 00:25:26

Uh, the legislation is quite

complicated, but, um, we have, there's

395

: 00:25:31

105 offences in, in England and Wales.

396

: 00:25:34

which could allow a person to be put on

a sex offender's register effectively.

397

: 00:25:39

One of those is assaulting a person

in charge of a shipwreck, whereas

398

: 00:25:43

animal abuse is not on there.

399

: 00:25:44

That's how crazy the law is.

400

: 00:25:46

Um, and uh, there's not many people

convicted of assaulting someone

401

: 00:25:49

in charge of a shipwreck anymore.

402

: 00:25:51

That's an old piece of legislation.

403

: 00:25:53

So, that needs to be put on there.

404

: 00:25:56

But also for me, it's about the motivation

of the person doing it because we

405

: 00:26:01

had a case, there was a case in the

UK which came to court, uh, a couple

406

: 00:26:05

of weeks ago, where an individual

had been convicted of strangling a

407

: 00:26:10

horse and slashing it with a knife.

408

: 00:26:14

Um, now that's an animal welfare offence.

409

: 00:26:17

They were convicted of an

animal welfare offence.

410

: 00:26:20

The motivation behind what

happened was never uncovered.

411

: 00:26:23

But for me, That is shouting out that

that's a sexual offence, that individual

412

: 00:26:28

is a very dangerous individual, that needs

to be at least subject to some kind of

413

: 00:26:32

psychological assessment and monitoring.

414

: 00:26:34

It may well be they've got another

motivation, but we should be

415

: 00:26:38

proactive in preventing, in protecting

public children and animals.

416

: 00:26:42

And, and, uh, definitely not all animal

abuse offenders potentially need to

417

: 00:26:48

go onto a sex offenders register, but

certainly those where either there is

418

: 00:26:53

Sexual intent or, or, yeah, when there is

some kind of sexual intent, there needs

419

: 00:26:58

to be some kind of referral, I think.

420

: 00:27:01

Dr. G: As I was, as I was looking

into, into the topic, I found that,

421

: 00:27:05

you know, not, not every state in the

United States considers, animal sexual

422

: 00:27:11

crimes, or bestiality, uh, crime.

423

: 00:27:13

Um, the majority does,

but not all of them.

424

: 00:27:16

And then of the ones that do, about

half consider it a minor crime, a

425

: 00:27:20

misdemeanor, and then the other half

consider it a major crime or a felony.

426

: 00:27:24

Uh, and it, it's just interesting

to, to see just the, that grayscale

427

: 00:27:30

where one state may just...

428

: 00:27:32

Again, consider it a minor crime and no

big deal, but yet another state may think

429

: 00:27:36

that it is enough to be a major crime.

430

: 00:27:39

Um, they, they understand

the, the relationship of it.

431

: 00:27:43

Here in Ohio, where I'm at, it

is considered a misdemeanor.

432

: 00:27:46

So the, for, for it to ever become

something in a sexual registry

433

: 00:27:52

is unlikely because we don't even

consider it that big an offense.

434

: 00:27:57

Um, but, but then, at least we,

it does give us the opportunity

435

: 00:28:03

to charge two separate crimes,

because then it becomes separate

436

: 00:28:07

from the animal cruelty side of it.

437

: 00:28:09

Um, so if the animal is actually

harmed in the process, then

438

: 00:28:12

they may have animal cruelty in

addition to the, to the sex crime.

439

: 00:28:18

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, for me, when

you, even if you take the opinion that

440

: 00:28:22

animal sexual abuse is not a serious

crime, it's what it indicates to me,

441

: 00:28:27

That, that, that should be being,

should be featuring on terms of safe,

442

: 00:28:32

safety protection programs, whatever.

443

: 00:28:34

I, it's, you know, I keep saying that

animal crime rarely happens in isolation.

444

: 00:28:38

I think it's extremely unlikely that

somebody who sexually abuses an animal

445

: 00:28:42

for the rest of their day, for the rest

of their life, is a law abiding citizen.

446

: 00:28:46

They don't, they're not

involved in domestic abuse.

447

: 00:28:48

They're not involved in, uh, cyber abuse.

448

: 00:28:51

They're not online, you know,

downloading child abuse images.

449

: 00:28:55

They're just...

450

: 00:28:56

But it gives you an opportunity to

look into that crime further and to

451

: 00:28:59

look into that person's offending or

into that community, what's happening.

452

: 00:29:02

And of course community, and I touched

on this earlier on, a community

453

: 00:29:06

traditionally was, you know, a

village, a town, a city of people.

454

: 00:29:09

Now your community is a,

is an online community.

455

: 00:29:12

It gives you an opportunity to have

a look at that to protect the public.

456

: 00:29:15

I mean, England and Wales again have

got a um, a new piece of legislation

457

: 00:29:20

which has finally got through

parliament and is just waiting for

458

: 00:29:22

royal, royal assent at the moment.

459

: 00:29:25

Um, an online safety bill which is

in theory is there to protect people

460

: 00:29:29

from what's happening on, on, online.

461

: 00:29:32

Now animal abuse is included within that

which is a really, really positive step.

462

: 00:29:37

So it's, it's, we're still trying to

iron out what that's going to look like

463

: 00:29:41

but in theory people who are posting

animal abuse online or platforms

464

: 00:29:46

that are doing it will be liable.

465

: 00:29:48

Uh, in the UK, criminally liable.

466

: 00:29:50

So, there is pro there's

really good progress around

467

: 00:29:53

the world in a lot of areas.

468

: 00:29:54

I'm, you know, people ask me, you know, do

you get a bit depressed dealing with this?

469

: 00:29:59

Because it, it's constant.

470

: 00:30:00

There's so many problems, so many issues.

471

: 00:30:02

But there is also some

really, really good progress.

472

: 00:30:05

It's amazing people working

within animal welfare.

473

: 00:30:08

At a very professional level and um,

I'm very, very hopeful about it because

474

: 00:30:12

there's some good things happening.

475

: 00:30:15

Dr. G: I think that, I do agree

that we are moving forward.

476

: 00:30:18

You know, I get asked that question as

well, as far as how can you see these

477

: 00:30:23

horrible cases and then still smile?

478

: 00:30:26

I, uh, I was a guest.

479

: 00:30:28

Uh, instructor at a class and one of

the students said, you know, you just

480

: 00:30:32

showed us all these horrible things

that humans do to animals and yet you're

481

: 00:30:36

here and you're standing up and you're

smiling and you kind of have to have

482

: 00:30:39

that forward perspective as far as I'm

helping this right now and I am making,

483

: 00:30:46

you know, the world a little bit better

and it's Unfortunately, it is going to,

484

: 00:30:50

to keep going for a bit, but I think

that the more we work together, the

485

: 00:30:54

better the chances of, um, of making an

impact, not just locally, but globally.

486

: 00:31:02

Mark Randell: I often get asked, you

know, how do I deal with looking at animal

487

: 00:31:04

abuse images and how do I deal with that?

488

: 00:31:07

And it's, it's...

489

: 00:31:08

Now everybody has to have their own coping

mechanism of what they deal with, and I

490

: 00:31:12

suppose I learned mine when doing sort of

undercover work with child sex offenders.

491

: 00:31:17

You know, how I deal with it is I don't

look at things I don't need to look at.

492

: 00:31:22

When I do need to look at something,

I only look at it from the perspective

493

: 00:31:25

that I need to look at it from.

494

: 00:31:26

So if I'm looking at a dogfighting case, I

don't necessarily might, you know, I might

495

: 00:31:30

not need to see what the injuries are.

496

: 00:31:32

What I'm trying to identify is who the

people are involved in it, so I can

497

: 00:31:35

actually look at it slightly differently.

498

: 00:31:37

Um, obviously a veterinarian, if you're

a forensic veterinarian, you might

499

: 00:31:40

need to look at the specific injuries.

500

: 00:31:43

But it's actually not exposing yourself

to stuff that, um, you don't need to look

501

: 00:31:51

at, you don't need to be involved in.

502

: 00:31:53

You know, if I could go through

my various timelines, there's all

503

: 00:31:55

sorts of stuff that goes on there.

504

: 00:31:57

Um, I was recently contacted about a

case that originated in China of online

505

: 00:32:03

animal abuse, and they sent, wanted

to send me all the images, and I'm

506

: 00:32:06

thinking, I don't need to know that,

why do I need to see these images?

507

: 00:32:09

I, I know what animal cruelty looks

like, what I need to identify.

508

: 00:32:13

is where is it happening, who are the

agencies who are likely to deal with it,

509

: 00:32:17

you know, what evidence is there, how have

you collected your evidence, so that the

510

: 00:32:21

case can be presented in the right way.

511

: 00:32:22

I don't need to look at, you know,

a cat being killed, because I know

512

: 00:32:25

what a cat being killed looks like.

513

: 00:32:28

That way I can reduce the impact, I

think, to myself, but everybody has

514

: 00:32:32

their own, has to develop their own

coping mechanism in relation to that.

515

: 00:32:37

Um, as an undercover officer, I

used to have, like, psychological

516

: 00:32:39

assessments on a, on a regular basis.

517

: 00:32:42

Um, the animal welfare world doesn't

do that, but it's good to talk, it's

518

: 00:32:46

good to share experiences, it's good to

help each other through this, I think.

519

: 00:32:51

Dr. G: Yeah, the way that I, that I

personally cope with it is I see...

520

: 00:32:56

I, I see it as evidence, right?

521

: 00:32:57

I try to have a very objective perspective

about it so that when I'm looking,

522

: 00:33:02

you know, if I'm looking at a, at a

cadaver, to me, it's evidence, it's,

523

: 00:33:06

it's bones, it's tissue, it's information

to be able to catch the perpetrator.

524

: 00:33:11

Um, I.

525

: 00:33:12

I try not to dwell on the actual

the actual suffering that occurred.

526

: 00:33:16

I know that there was suffering.

527

: 00:33:17

I know that there was injury.

528

: 00:33:18

I know that there was pain, but I

try not to internalize that because

529

: 00:33:21

then one case and you're done.

530

: 00:33:23

Um, you know, I worked with the Humane

Society of the United States and one of

531

: 00:33:26

the things that they are very good about

is offering that kind of emotional support

532

: 00:33:31

for the individuals because you have

also a lot of different people, everybody

533

: 00:33:36

from people that are trained and have

worked in the field for many, many years

534

: 00:33:40

to volunteers that perhaps this is their

first exposure to something like that.

535

: 00:33:44

And it can be very impactful.

536

: 00:33:47

People are in those, in those

positions because they love animals.

537

: 00:33:51

And clearly if you love animals, you

have that degree of empathy and you don't

538

: 00:33:54

want anything bad to happen to them.

539

: 00:33:55

And then all of a sudden you're in

a case where all these animals are

540

: 00:33:58

either starved or beaten or injured.

541

: 00:34:02

And it does become very difficult,

very emotionally taxing.

542

: 00:34:05

So that's how, that's

kind of how I see it.

543

: 00:34:09

Mark Randell: It's, it's one of the

areas that I've first noticed really

544

: 00:34:12

transiting from policing into animal

welfare, the animal welfare world is

545

: 00:34:16

that police officers, uh, are good

at looking at things evidentially.

546

: 00:34:20

Animal welfare representatives

tend to be a little bit more

547

: 00:34:23

emotional about what's happening.

548

: 00:34:25

And I get where that comes from.

549

: 00:34:27

And sometimes that can

cause a conflict between.

550

: 00:34:30

when handing evidence over of a case

where somebody who is emotionally attached

551

: 00:34:36

cannot understand why a case doesn't

go to court, why there's not successful

552

: 00:34:40

prosecution, why something goes wrong.

553

: 00:34:42

And therefore I think it's It's

incumbent on both sides to really

554

: 00:34:45

understand, uh, how the other operates.

555

: 00:34:49

So, you know, I, I, I have trained a lot

of animal welfare groups around the world

556

: 00:34:53

on, on, you know, the laws of evidence,

that, that this is how you need to present

557

: 00:34:57

your evidence if you're going to take it

to the, to the court, to a police officer.

558

: 00:35:01

You know, if you go, Shouting and,

and thumping your fist and swearing

559

: 00:35:05

and calling our police officers

corrupt and they don't deal with

560

: 00:35:08

the case properly, you're probably

not going to get a good outcome.

561

: 00:35:11

Likewise, if you're a police officer

and you think of anybody who deals

562

: 00:35:15

with animals as an extremist or

radical or, or has this warped view

563

: 00:35:19

of life, then you're not going to

be a very good protector of society.

564

: 00:35:23

And so, you kind of need to work together

and where you've got, in Greece where I

565

: 00:35:28

did quite a lot of work, You know, they'll

form groups where they've got, you know,

566

: 00:35:32

local police officers, local veterinarians

and animal groups working in partnership.

567

: 00:35:37

And as a result, they keep their community

safer because they deal with animal cases,

568

: 00:35:41

human cases, they communicate with each

other, they understand each other's needs.

569

: 00:35:46

And if you're working in a small

town, a small area, that can work.

570

: 00:35:49

Nationally, you'll see they

need national arrangements to be

571

: 00:35:52

able to understand each other.

572

: 00:35:55

But at the end of the day, we all

want to achieve the same thing.

573

: 00:35:58

You know, we all want to make

society safer for people and animals.

574

: 00:36:01

That's where it comes from.

575

: 00:36:03

Dr. G: Here, here in Ohio, um,

animal control officers and humane

576

: 00:36:07

officers are the ones that primarily

investigate the animal crimes.

577

: 00:36:10

And I just recently did a,

did a class, an online class.

578

: 00:36:15

Because, as a forensic veterinarian, I

receive requests from these animal control

579

: 00:36:20

officers to help them investigate things,

and many times after the fact, so already

580

: 00:36:26

they have gathered the evidence, they

have done everything, but there is so

581

: 00:36:30

much emotional uh, Um, so much emotion

in the case that when they walk into a

582

: 00:36:36

animal crime scene, their first concern

is I got to get this dog out of here.

583

: 00:36:40

I got to get this cat out of here.

584

: 00:36:42

So they go in and they don't

understand evidence, right?

585

: 00:36:45

Animals as evidence of a crime.

586

: 00:36:47

So we had to to discuss proper Procedure

in gathering evidence, you walk into

587

: 00:36:53

the house, you see an animal that

is in pain and it's in discomfort.

588

: 00:36:56

You don't just go running

and take it out, right?

589

: 00:36:58

We have to stop.

590

: 00:37:00

We have to think about it.

591

: 00:37:01

We have to take pictures.

592

: 00:37:02

We have to document because as much

as we want to prosecute the people,

593

: 00:37:06

the, the perpetrators of these crimes.

594

: 00:37:09

We are just blowing the case if we

are mismanaging the, the evidence and

595

: 00:37:14

in the end, if we don't manage the

evidence properly, what can potentially

596

: 00:37:17

happen is that animal that we just

rescued goes back to that person.

597

: 00:37:22

So, part of what you do is doing this

evaluation and then assessment and

598

: 00:37:27

then investigation and prosecution.

599

: 00:37:29

So how does your work do?

600

: 00:37:31

Like, can you walk us through

through some of the cases that

601

: 00:37:34

you have that you have done?

602

: 00:37:37

Mark Randell: You know, most of my case

is now about training, because, uh, going

603

: 00:37:40

from policing cases, which may be about

human trafficking, or I don't know, bomb

604

: 00:37:46

factories, so that would be the kind

of cases that I was dealing with within

605

: 00:37:49

policing, um, which some of them would

take years to be able to investigate.

606

: 00:37:54

A lot of the cases that I started doing

when I was in, um, when I came out

607

: 00:37:58

of policing was actually for media,

rather than for Um, for prosecutions,

608

: 00:38:04

because the standard of proof is

different and, and what your objective

609

: 00:38:08

is, is, uh, what your objectives are

looking for is slightly different.

610

: 00:38:11

So you may well not be looking for

prosecution, but what you're looking for

611

: 00:38:14

is substantive evidence to be able to show

that case on a, on like a documentary.

612

: 00:38:19

So I did a dogfighting case, particularly

with the BBC, so we had to work with

613

: 00:38:23

the, documentary case, um, where

we're looking at global dog fighting.

614

: 00:38:28

So, um, with that one, we had to

make sure that, um, you know, we'd

615

: 00:38:34

evidence that the links between, um,

the different countries, the different

616

: 00:38:39

individuals would actually proven

who they were through social media.

617

: 00:38:43

Um, so that the case was watertight

from a, from a legal perspective

618

: 00:38:47

to be able shown on air.

619

: 00:38:50

Prosecutions actually through the

court system is something I, I

620

: 00:38:54

haven't done now for a number of

years because I've been busy working

621

: 00:38:57

in other countries training about it.

622

: 00:38:59

Um, and it varies from country to country

but essentially what you're saying there

623

: 00:39:03

about crime scenes is where I, I mostly

did, did my training work in that.

624

: 00:39:11

If it's a, if it's a multiple homicide,

clearly you're going to treat a crime

625

: 00:39:15

scene, you're going to throw everything at

the crime scene, you're going to, um, look

626

: 00:39:19

at the videos, recording it correctly,

um, seizing everything there, who are

627

: 00:39:24

your witnesses, you know, um, who are

your key witnesses, who are your suspects,

628

: 00:39:30

but actually a minor animal, a minor, uh,

animal crime, and I use that term loosely.

629

: 00:39:36

Requires the same, exactly

the same processes.

630

: 00:39:39

So you still need to be looking

at what is your crime scene?

631

: 00:39:43

How are you going to

safeguard your crime scene?

632

: 00:39:45

Bear in mind the resources that you've

got, you know, you're not going to

633

: 00:39:48

have a whole CSI team out there.

634

: 00:39:50

You're not going to have, you may

well just have a, might be pouring

635

: 00:39:53

a rain and you might have a.

636

: 00:39:55

you know, a piece of a plastic box

that you can cover the animal with.

637

: 00:39:58

So be pragmatic about what you've got.

638

: 00:40:01

Um, uh, one example we had, I was training

in, um, uh, the municipal headquarters of

639

: 00:40:09

the local government in Kiev, in Ukraine,

and we were doing animal crime scenes.

640

: 00:40:14

And, uh, We had designated this

thoroughfare as an animal crime scene and

641

: 00:40:18

we blocked off all the senior officials

in Kiev and Ukraine from walking down

642

: 00:40:22

this corridor because we'd got a stuffed

animal in the middle of the, in the

643

: 00:40:25

middle of the, the, uh, , the room.

644

: 00:40:28

Um, and it was fascinating to see these

really high ranking, uh, police officers

645

: 00:40:34

and government officials having to walk

all the way around the room just to be

646

: 00:40:38

able to protect that animal crime scene.

647

: 00:40:42

The training that I really give is

based upon transmitting what I've

648

: 00:40:47

done within human crime scenes,

whether it's a bomb factory or a human

649

: 00:40:52

trafficking crime scene, onto the

animal world and giving it exactly

650

: 00:40:57

the same level of consideration and

thought processes, albeit realistically,

651

: 00:41:04

you may or may not have access to

the same resources, so you've got to

652

: 00:41:07

think a little bit more pragmatically.

653

: 00:41:10

Does that help?

654

: 00:41:11

It's a little bit of a

roundabout answer there.

655

: 00:41:13

Dr. G: Yeah, no, no, absolutely.

656

: 00:41:15

Um, I, I recently, well, I'm still in

progress of doing, uh, taking education

657

: 00:41:21

through University of Florida and Forensic

Sciences, because I think that there

658

: 00:41:24

is a little bit of a disconnect within,

between the capabilities in human crimes

659

: 00:41:29

and the capabilities in animal crimes.

660

: 00:41:31

So part of what What I hope to gain from

that education is kind of how we can use

661

: 00:41:38

some of the knowledge that we have that

we use in human criminology into animals.

662

: 00:41:44

So I have used, for instance, entomology.

663

: 00:41:47

I've used insects to try to determine

time of death, just to prove timelines

664

: 00:41:52

that A suspect is given us to show that.

665

: 00:41:55

No, you said that this animal has

only been dead for a few days.

666

: 00:41:58

This animal actually based on insects

based on all the other information

667

: 00:42:02

has been dead for for a lot longer.

668

: 00:42:04

So I think that there's definitely

room as we understand the importance

669

: 00:42:09

of the link and we take animal crimes

more seriously, we can start utilizing

670

: 00:42:15

some of the knowledge that we have

for human crimes into animal crimes.

671

: 00:42:21

Mark Randell: I've got a friend who

is the professor at the University of

672

: 00:42:25

Bedford Forensic Department in the UK.

673

: 00:42:27

And they are doing some excellent

work, so I may need to put you in

674

: 00:42:30

contact with each other to talk to,

uh, to Samantha about this, because

675

: 00:42:34

she's got some, some excellent ideas.

676

: 00:42:36

It's beyond, it's beyond my skill level.

677

: 00:42:39

Um, but you talk about entomology, I mean,

I'm blown away with what they're doing in

678

: 00:42:42

relation to animal crime scenes, so I'll

definitely put you in contact with her.

679

: 00:42:47

Dr. G: That would be,

that would be amazing.

680

: 00:42:48

I'm always looking to learn more

because there's just so much

681

: 00:42:51

opportunity out there to do better.

682

: 00:42:54

And I mean, it's just, you

know, we get too caught up on,

683

: 00:42:58

well, it costs too much money.

684

: 00:42:59

Well, but there are ways of, of

getting, of getting things done and

685

: 00:43:02

some of these resources already exist.

686

: 00:43:05

So it's just kind of figuring out

how to, how to source the existing

687

: 00:43:09

resources so that we can help both.

688

: 00:43:12

Mark Randell: Yeah.

689

: 00:43:12

I mean, one of the big.

690

: 00:43:14

One of the big statements that always

come back to me is that, you know,

691

: 00:43:17

we don't have the resources for this.

692

: 00:43:18

We don't have the money for this.

693

: 00:43:21

The approach is the same as I used

to take when, , when I worked in the

694

: 00:43:25

intelligence field, there was always a,

um, a willingness to try and, or a desire

695

: 00:43:30

to try and cut intelligence resources.

696

: 00:43:34

When actually, when you've got, when

you're struggling for money, when, when,

697

: 00:43:37

uh, you know, everybody's struggling

for money right now, whether it's

698

: 00:43:41

at national or, or, or local level.

699

: 00:43:44

You want intelligence because you

want people to highlight where

700

: 00:43:46

the subjects are at that point.

701

: 00:43:48

You don't want to be cutting what,

those areas that are actually

702

: 00:43:51

talking about crime prevention.

703

: 00:43:53

And tackling animal abuse

properly is never extra work.

704

: 00:43:57

It's, it's an opportunity to be able to

reduce the amount of crime, which actually

705

: 00:44:00

is going to save money in the long run.

706

: 00:44:02

There was, um, another case I

can talk about in terms of the

707

: 00:44:06

link, uh, in, in Ukraine again.

708

: 00:44:08

Uh, in 2007, there were

three young men who...

709

: 00:44:14

Uh, started capturing and killing

street animals, tying them up, um,

710

: 00:44:18

and, and hanging them from trees.

711

: 00:44:21

Um, and very, very quickly they

transitioned into vulnerable adults

712

: 00:44:25

and they started committing them using

the same mode of soprandi as they were.

713

: 00:44:29

And they committed 21 murders, no

attempted murders over a period

714

: 00:44:32

of a few months in that time.

715

: 00:44:35

Um, when that was investigated, I

understand it took 2, 000 police

716

: 00:44:39

officers to investigate it.

717

: 00:44:40

That's a lot of policing resource.

718

: 00:44:43

Um, I mean, it's horrific that,

you know, 21 murders anyway.

719

: 00:44:49

But if we had caught, or if those

youngsters had been caught early,

720

: 00:44:54

we'd have saved, all that money

would have been saved later on.

721

: 00:44:57

So crime prevention is, is critical

in understanding the role that

722

: 00:45:01

animals play within families and

relationships and communities.

723

: 00:45:06

It is really important to turn to

crime prevention and costing less for

724

: 00:45:11

the country and in the first place.

725

: 00:45:14

Dr. G: So you've been discussing

about your work with Ukraine.

726

: 00:45:16

So how has that changed?

727

: 00:45:19

How, what was your work

with Ukraine before and now?

728

: 00:45:23

Um, I imagine that the struggles

and the needs of the animals and the

729

: 00:45:27

people have changed since the war.

730

: 00:45:29

Mark Randell: The Nature Watch Foundation

started working in Ukraine, uh, in

731

: 00:45:32

1994, three years after Ukraine's

independence from the Soviet Union.

732

: 00:45:37

And, um, that was mainly about animal,

um, That stray animal management, I

733

: 00:45:42

guess, is where it came from, but also

looking at the zoo and other areas.

734

: 00:45:45

I began working in 2018 there when I

was training police officers and animal

735

: 00:45:51

groups um, about taking animal crime

seriously, responsible dog ownership, you

736

: 00:45:57

know, looking at legislation and working

with animal groups and municipalities.

737

: 00:46:03

And before the war, I managed to get

to sort of 13 cities from Lviv in

738

: 00:46:06

the west out to Kharkiv in the east,

where I would spend a day with police

739

: 00:46:11

officers going through animal crime

scenes and talking to them about

740

: 00:46:15

the relevance of dealing with it.

741

: 00:46:17

But I was also talking to police

officers about the importance of

742

: 00:46:21

Within, um, public relations, within

their community, and taking animal

743

: 00:46:26

welfare and animal crime seriously.

744

: 00:46:28

And, you know, when they rescue and when

the, because the patrol police officers

745

: 00:46:32

were there were coming from a time of

militia of the former Soviet Union,

746

: 00:46:35

and it's being a modern police service.

747

: 00:46:38

And it was really important that they

were seen as approachable individuals.

748

: 00:46:41

They've got a really school,

good school program there, so.

749

: 00:46:44

Leaning with police officers to say

that, you know, when you're rescuing

750

: 00:46:47

animals, when you, when you save them,

tell the public what you're doing, you

751

: 00:46:50

know, explain why it's important to save

them, because then you'll be seen as a

752

: 00:46:54

far more approachable police service.

753

: 00:46:56

Um, you'll be seen as one that, if you're

a victim of, you know, sexual abuse,

754

: 00:47:01

domestic abuse, any kind of crime, You're

far more likely to report that to a police

755

: 00:47:07

officer that you've seen has got empathy,

some kind of compassion, and it builds

756

: 00:47:11

the credibility of the police service.

757

: 00:47:13

And the long term effect is

that, you know, overall crime

758

: 00:47:17

and overall violence will reduce.

759

: 00:47:19

So that's where I was.

760

: 00:47:21

from 2018 until 2022 when the, when

this section of the war started,

761

: 00:47:27

um, and obviously massively changed.

762

: 00:47:30

Um, uh, it's a bit difficult to know

where to start really, but stray animal

763

: 00:47:34

management has been horrendous because,

you know, shelters have been destroyed.

764

: 00:47:39

Shelters have been blown apart.

765

: 00:47:41

People have left dogs.

766

: 00:47:42

They've abandoned dogs.

767

: 00:47:43

Dogs have been into the streets.

768

: 00:47:45

Cat population has grown out of control.

769

: 00:47:47

Um, initially zoos were being hit,

um, and animals were, were escaping.

770

: 00:47:53

Um, stray animal management was

a huge issue and there's also a

771

: 00:47:56

bit of a rabies issue in Ukraine.

772

: 00:47:58

Um, so we've been working and it's

again, it has to be in partnership.

773

: 00:48:02

So working with groups like

Eurogroup for animals and others

774

: 00:48:04

to be able to develop a strategy.

775

: 00:48:06

And then, um, that, that.

776

: 00:48:09

We'll spay and neuter, we'll keep on

top of the spay neuter work so that the

777

: 00:48:13

populations don't go out of control.

778

: 00:48:15

I mean, they are out of control, but

there is pro, there are programs in

779

: 00:48:19

place, but there's also getting aid

out there for the rescues, you know,

780

: 00:48:23

shipping, uh, food, medical supplies

out from Poland and Romania to Ukraine.

781

: 00:48:28

So it's been a, um, a huge project and my

training or the police training, you know,

782

: 00:48:33

I haven't been able to train the police

because I've been busy doing other things,

783

: 00:48:35

but it's carried on, you know, because

I was working with lawyers, the lawyers

784

: 00:48:40

are now carrying on with the training.

785

: 00:48:42

So we need to keep that going.

786

: 00:48:43

And I think that one of the things

that people potentially would have

787

: 00:48:47

seen certainly in the early days

of the war is images of Ukrainians

788

: 00:48:53

looking after their animals, caring

for their animals, recognizing that.

789

: 00:48:57

In times of war, in times of stress, the

animal human bond is critically important,

790

: 00:49:02

um, that they are a member of the family,

uh, and hopefully the Nature Watch

791

: 00:49:07

Foundation program has been a little part

of that in terms of looking at general

792

: 00:49:12

animal welfare throughout the country.

793

: 00:49:16

Dr. G: So what is, what is the,

uh, Nature Watch Foundation as

794

: 00:49:20

far as the missions and goals?

795

: 00:49:23

Mark Randell: So the main thing is about

advancing animal welfare around the world.

796

: 00:49:25

So Nature Watch Foundation,

um, started just over 30 years

797

: 00:49:29

ago, a small animal charity.

798

: 00:49:32

So that's a 501 in the US and it's,

um, based in, in the west part of the

799

: 00:49:38

UK, but it's responsible for puppy

farming, for campaigning against animal

800

: 00:49:44

testing, um, for wildlife crimes and

a number of other areas, but it's

801

: 00:49:48

also responsible for World Animal Day,

um, and looks after World Animal Day.

802

: 00:49:53

Uh, 4th of October every year

for those that don't know.

803

: 00:49:56

Um, exciting new website

this year, worldanimalday.

804

: 00:50:00

org, where you can go on there and

you can upload all the different

805

: 00:50:03

things that you've been doing for

World Animal Day, learn from other

806

: 00:50:06

people around the, uh, the world.

807

: 00:50:10

I know there's an organization doing,

uh, stray animal management in Greece.

808

: 00:50:13

They've done a big project on there.

809

: 00:50:15

Um, so if you want to learn about

how to manage stray animals in your

810

: 00:50:19

particular area, have a look at that.

811

: 00:50:21

So World Animal Day is a really, really

big thing every year, obviously, around,

812

: 00:50:24

uh, all different countries of the world,

and Nature Watch Foundation manages that.

813

: 00:50:28

So, big, diverse portfolio, um, there's

only about half a dozen to ten people

814

: 00:50:33

working for Nature Watch Foundation,

but it does, uh, it does great work.

815

: 00:50:36

And I'm proud to have been a part

of it for the last few years.

816

: 00:50:41

Dr. G: One of the things that I saw

on the website was about the concept

817

: 00:50:44

of animals as sentient beings and

Here we have that that issue where

818

: 00:50:51

animals are property and I don't our

animals consider property in the UK

819

: 00:50:56

Mark Randell: it varies I mean the

Sentience legislation passed last

820

: 00:51:00

year, and in theory it's supposed to,

um, it's supposed to permeate through

821

: 00:51:07

all types of legislation, but that's

still very early days at the moment.

822

: 00:51:10

I mean, cats, for example, are

still part of criminal, you

823

: 00:51:13

know, part of property, so.

824

: 00:51:16

Uh, you hurt a cat, you're more likely

to prosecute you for criminal damage than

825

: 00:51:19

you are for abuse because it's property.

826

: 00:51:23

So, yeah, property is still an issue.

827

: 00:51:25

I mean, it's, it's, in theory, sentience

is, it's, it's supposed to go through

828

: 00:51:28

all of our legislation, but, uh, I think

it'll take a while before that changes,

829

: 00:51:32

but again, it's a good bit of progress.

830

: 00:51:35

Dr. G: Yeah, no, it's, it's amazing.

831

: 00:51:37

Progress because we see, we see

issues here where, uh, yeah,

832

: 00:51:41

as you said, if an animal gets

injured, then it's just property.

833

: 00:51:44

It's what's the value of your property.

834

: 00:51:46

And then that's how it's

managed in the courts.

835

: 00:51:48

Um, and it's interesting to, to look at it

from a concept of property when there are.

836

: 00:51:55

Laws against crimes against animals.

837

: 00:51:57

So it's illegal to injure an animal

to commit cruelty against animals.

838

: 00:52:01

But then if something happens, as

far as the pet owner is concerned,

839

: 00:52:05

it's just a piece of property.

840

: 00:52:07

One of the things that we had been

discussing in, in my classes, it's

841

: 00:52:12

about the concept of living property.

842

: 00:52:13

And kind of.

843

: 00:52:17

You know, the, the idea between welfare

and rights, um, just because a lot of

844

: 00:52:21

people, like we want to see rights for

animals, but perhaps the concept of

845

: 00:52:26

welfare, it's a little bit easier to,

to get people to, to follow or buy into.

846

: 00:52:33

Mark Randell: Yeah, I think

Spain this, this, uh, last month,

847

: 00:52:37

potentially the new legislation came

out in Spain, which is quite good in

848

: 00:52:40

terms of animal sentience as well.

849

: 00:52:42

Um, there's some good progress there.

850

: 00:52:44

I mean, the difficulty with

the Spanish legislation is it

851

: 00:52:47

doesn't apply to hunting dogs.

852

: 00:52:48

It doesn't apply to bullfighting.

853

: 00:52:51

Um, so there's quite often

exemptions in Europe with the

854

: 00:52:54

sentence legislation in terms of...

855

: 00:52:57

Exclusions of, um, animals for

potentially political reasons, maybe.

856

: 00:53:03

Um, so, it's good, but it should

be, and then, of course, you've

857

: 00:53:07

got, you know, animal testing,

you've got, um, farm animals.

858

: 00:53:11

As soon as you start moving into

other areas, it becomes a lot more

859

: 00:53:13

complex in terms of sentience.

860

: 00:53:16

Um, a lot of those, um, uh, debates,

again, are perhaps too complex for me.

861

: 00:53:22

I've, you know, I'm an old detective.

862

: 00:53:24

I tend to look at things this way,

but it certainly does open some

863

: 00:53:27

doors and some thinking in terms of.

864

: 00:53:30

where we should be with all animals

and not just companion animals.

865

: 00:53:35

Dr. G: And you talk

about, uh, animal farming.

866

: 00:53:38

I am assuming that that's basically

what we consider puppy mills.

867

: 00:53:41

Would that be correct, right?

868

: 00:53:43

Like just a overbreeding of

869

: 00:53:44

Mark Randell: animals?

870

: 00:53:46

Yeah, um, absolutely.

871

: 00:53:48

I mean, there are, um, puppy mills in

Eastern Europe, puppy mills in Ireland,

872

: 00:53:53

puppy mills in Wales, um, feeding a

market of effectively designer dogs.

873

: 00:53:59

Um, one of the things that Nature

Watch Foundation exposed in the

874

: 00:54:02

last year was, um, canine fertility

clinics where, uh, In the kitchen,

875

: 00:54:10

effectively, people were building

designer dogs using fertility clinics.

876

: 00:54:14

Um, they weren't veterinarians,

they were lay individuals.

877

: 00:54:17

And the Edgewatch Foundation

did some great work on that.

878

: 00:54:21

Um, and at the end of it, there's

a desire for designer dogs.

879

: 00:54:27

And that's when there's a market, if

you look at the narcotic market or

880

: 00:54:32

anything, it's all the fur industry.

881

: 00:54:37

If there is a market for it, criminals

and certain individuals will exploit

882

: 00:54:43

that and will look to feed it.

883

: 00:54:45

So, you know, French Bulldogs as a

case in point at the moment, uh, they

884

: 00:54:51

were, I don't know what you'd know,

the pricing at the moment, 10, 000,

885

: 00:54:55

10, know, I mean, crazy money that

people will pay for a dog that they've

886

: 00:54:59

seen and influenced to use on social

media, that they want that particular

887

: 00:55:03

dog, they want it now, they don't

want to spend some time looking at...

888

: 00:55:06

The best dog and they won't go

to the rescue, which is where

889

: 00:55:08

they should be going to get a

dog, but that's another point.

890

: 00:55:11

Um, they want that dog there and then,

um, you know, people will spend a

891

: 00:55:15

lot more time looking for, you know,

what TV they're going to have, which

892

: 00:55:18

phone they're going to have than they

will, which dog they're going to have

893

: 00:55:21

and they're going to, you know, most

phones are on a three year contract.

894

: 00:55:24

Dogs are on a 10 to 14 year contract.

895

: 00:55:27

You're spending a lot more time

looking for a, uh, your dog than

896

: 00:55:30

you should, which, you know.

897

: 00:55:32

Which level of iPhone you want, really.

898

: 00:55:35

Dr. G: And one, one, uh, wording

that I saw on the website that I

899

: 00:55:39

really, really liked is that it,

you guys called it greed breeding.

900

: 00:55:44

Yeah.

901

: 00:55:45

Yeah.

902

: 00:55:46

So, uh, go ahead.

903

: 00:55:48

Mark Randell: No, I mean, it is, it's

not my campaign, the greed breeding one.

904

: 00:55:52

I think it's a great terminology.

905

: 00:55:54

It's this concept of...

906

: 00:55:56

Of, of wanting, wanting something

designer rather than a dog that

907

: 00:56:02

actually needs some love and

companionship and looking after really.

908

: 00:56:07

Dr. G: Yeah, the problem that we're

seeing here with the designer breeds is

909

: 00:56:10

a lot of the backyard breeders, right?

910

: 00:56:12

The people that are just taking it,

as you said, like just at home, taking

911

: 00:56:15

it into their own hands, creating

these breeds and then selling them

912

: 00:56:18

to consumers that just want to just,

they just hear what they want to hear.

913

: 00:56:23

It's like, okay, this

is what I'm looking for.

914

: 00:56:25

Oh yeah, this is what I have.

915

: 00:56:26

I mean, a doodle is a doodle.

916

: 00:56:28

All these poodle mixes kind of look

the same when they're puppies and

917

: 00:56:30

people are getting them thinking

that they're something and it's

918

: 00:56:33

just in the, in the end, a crossbred

with a very high, uh, price tag.

919

: 00:56:39

Right.

920

: 00:56:39

It's just consumer, I

guess, consumer fraud.

921

: 00:56:43

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean, I was in

the US a couple of years ago, actually,

922

: 00:56:45

and I saw, uh, uh, there were two

trucks pulled up in a lay by, and,

923

: 00:56:50

um, someone got a dog out, you know, a

puppy out the back of one, and, uh, you

924

: 00:56:54

know exactly what's happening there.

925

: 00:56:56

And it's, it's so frustrating that, that

we wouldn't do that with something else.

926

: 00:57:01

You, you wouldn't have any other...

927

: 00:57:03

I mean, they're not property

anyway, but even if they were

928

: 00:57:06

property animals, that's not how you

should be buying property, is it?

929

: 00:57:10

You know there's something wrong if

that's how you're getting your animal.

930

: 00:57:13

And I kind of understand there's also a

situation where, once you've gone past

931

: 00:57:18

that point, and you kind of know that

it's come from a puppy farm or a puppy

932

: 00:57:22

mill, that you then think, oh well,

at least I'm helping it, at least I'm

933

: 00:57:25

rescuing it, but actually, you know...

934

: 00:57:28

You're part of the problem.

935

: 00:57:30

I mean, I did some, a little bit of

work earlier this year with um, um,

936

: 00:57:35

there's a, there's a really good film

called Slay, uh, which is about the

937

: 00:57:39

fur trade, um, it's a documentary

which is available on, on line, and

938

: 00:57:43

it's really good to have a look at.

939

: 00:57:45

Um, I'm not into fashion myself

particularly, but there's um, one of the

940

: 00:57:50

phrases in there which is quite good, and

there was a, a model in there saying that.

941

: 00:57:54

You know, your next purchase is the most

important one and it's something which

942

: 00:57:58

resonated with me is that if you've

already bought a designer dog, if you've

943

: 00:58:03

already been down that route, then okay,

love it, look after it, care for it, get

944

: 00:58:07

a veterinarian, everything you need to do.

945

: 00:58:09

The next time you get a dog,

think slightly differently.

946

: 00:58:12

I don't, we don't want to

prejudge those that have.

947

: 00:58:16

either done it because they didn't

understand or because they did intend

948

: 00:58:19

to do a good job or You know, they've

now learned that dog's from a puppy

949

: 00:58:24

mill I don't think we should be

judging anybody who's in that route

950

: 00:58:27

But next time you buy a dog just

think slightly differently about it.

951

: 00:58:31

Look, um, uh, because They won't exist

puppy mills puppy farms won't exist if

952

: 00:58:39

you stop that market Because that they

can't they're going to do something else.

953

: 00:58:43

They're criminals.

954

: 00:58:44

They they find opportunities

if there's weak legislation

955

: 00:58:47

if there's weak enforcement.

956

: 00:58:50

If there's a market,

they'll go down that route.

957

: 00:58:52

And if there isn't, they'll go and ship, I

don't know, illegal vapes or something or

958

: 00:58:56

other they'll get from somewhere because

they don't care what the product is.

959

: 00:58:59

They just want to make money out of it.

960

: 00:59:01

Dr. G: Right.

961

: 00:59:02

If you decrease the demand, you have to

by, by extent, decrease the supply, right?

962

: 00:59:07

The supply dwindles.

963

: 00:59:09

Um, yesterday.

964

: 00:59:11

One of the rescues that, that we

work with, I, I run a spay neuter

965

: 00:59:15

clinic and we were at a shelter doing

surgeries and there was this man that

966

: 00:59:20

surrendered five dogs up to the shelter

because he said that nobody was buying.

967

: 00:59:26

So he couldn't get rid of them.

968

: 00:59:28

So he just gave them to the shelter.

969

: 00:59:30

And, you know, it, it's sad for those dogs

to end up in a shelter because they're

970

: 00:59:34

kind of unwanted, but that's what, that's

what ends up happening, perhaps this man

971

: 00:59:38

is going to not breed or not breed as

much because the demand is not as high.

972

: 00:59:44

So we, as consumers, we have

the power to control all these

973

: 00:59:48

issues with, with puppy mills.

974

: 00:59:49

I know that one of the

concerns that rescues that.

975

: 00:59:53

That get animals from these puppy

mills is that if they do something

976

: 00:59:57

to complain to the, uh, here, the,

the USDA is in charge of managing the

977

: 01:00:05

high volume breeders that if you may

complain, nothing's going to happen.

978

: 01:00:10

Um, and, and sadly, it is true.

979

: 01:00:12

There's a lot of investigations that

they will find that some of these.

980

: 01:00:16

high volume breeders are breaking

the law and not taking proper

981

: 01:00:19

care of these animals, but

nothing really ends up happening.

982

: 01:00:22

Is that what your experience is as well?

983

: 01:00:25

Or are high volume breeders, when

they, when they break the law in

984

: 01:00:30

animal welfare or animal care,

does, does something happen to them?

985

: 01:00:35

Mark Randell: I'm sure that those that

that are charged with investigating

986

: 01:00:38

puppy mills, puppy farms in, in the

UK are very competent investigators.

987

: 01:00:43

I think that the difficulty

that I have from an ex policing

988

: 01:00:46

background is that we shouldn't

be treating them any differently.

989

: 01:00:50

If you've got serious and

organized crime, you need to

990

: 01:00:51

tackle it at all different levels.

991

: 01:00:53

You need to be taken out.

992

: 01:00:55

There's almost a model that you put

in place to dismantle organized crime.

993

: 01:00:59

Um, And that's the same

from country to country.

994

: 01:01:01

Well, when you're tackling a puppy mill,

you just need to use the same model.

995

: 01:01:05

And you've got to deal with

every level professionally.

996

: 01:01:07

So, you know, that's reducing demand,

that's cutting off the supply chains,

997

: 01:01:12

that's looking at the routes that

it's getting to market, it's looking

998

: 01:01:16

at the finances, the tax evasion, the

other crimes that are connected to it.

999

: 01:01:22

Um, it's, uh, uh, the information

campaigns, it's, there's a number of

: 1000

01:01:26,989 --> 01:01:31,539

different things that you need to target,

um, to be able to take down whatever

: 1001

01:01:31,539 --> 01:01:34,649

organized crime it is, and puppy farms

should fit into that same category.

: 1002

01:01:35,649 --> 01:01:39,329

That's the same country to country, it's

the same area to area, but we still kind

: 1003

01:01:39,329 --> 01:01:41,149

of don't learn from that, I don't think.

: 1004

01:01:41,549 --> 01:01:41,939

And.

: 1005

01:01:42,959 --> 01:01:44,489

Different people are responsible.

: 1006

01:01:44,489 --> 01:01:46,679

I mean, we've got so many

different agencies in the UK

: 1007

01:01:46,679 --> 01:01:48,119

responsible for tackling things.

: 1008

01:01:48,159 --> 01:01:53,319

I mean, to not make mistakes, you've got

to have an incredibly good information

: 1009

01:01:53,319 --> 01:01:58,519

exchange flow, and that's quite often

where things go wrong, when you're not

: 1010

01:01:58,539 --> 01:02:02,879

sharing information, you're not working

in partnership, you're not, uh, you're

: 1011

01:02:02,889 --> 01:02:04,869

not working together to tackle things.

: 1012

01:02:04,949 --> 01:02:08,579

That's changed a lot over my policing

career, and then latterly, really,

: 1013

01:02:08,579 --> 01:02:13,649

in terms of understanding that Uh,

if you really want to tackle crime,

: 1014

01:02:13,649 --> 01:02:14,839

you have to work on it together.

: 1015

01:02:14,919 --> 01:02:18,709

And that's not just police officers,

that's members of the public, it's

: 1016

01:02:18,719 --> 01:02:23,629

local organizations, governments,

um, you know, tax officers.

: 1017

01:02:23,629 --> 01:02:27,259

It's just everybody needs to work together

to achieve the same goals, really.

: 1018

01:02:28,949 --> 01:02:29,249

To me,

: 1019

01:02:29,249 --> 01:02:31,269

Dr. G: it's frustrating because I see...

: 1020

01:02:32,419 --> 01:02:36,839

I see similarities between animal

hoarders and puppy mills, right?

: 1021

01:02:36,839 --> 01:02:40,529

They're both not giving them enough

resources, not giving enough cares,

: 1022

01:02:40,829 --> 01:02:45,489

but then animal hoarding is a crime

and puppy mills is much more different.

: 1023

01:02:45,489 --> 01:02:50,739

And to me, the, the main difference

between the two is that animal

: 1024

01:02:51,159 --> 01:02:55,409

hoarders are not supplying, are not

improving the finances or the economics

: 1025

01:02:55,619 --> 01:02:58,489

of the, of the area of the town.

: 1026

01:02:58,499 --> 01:03:00,389

So as soon as we.

: 1027

01:03:02,189 --> 01:03:10,319

put more, put more weight into the animal

welfare and less into the money that these

: 1028

01:03:10,409 --> 01:03:13,989

puppy farms are creating, then perhaps

we're going to be able to move forward.

: 1029

01:03:14,845 --> 01:03:16,825

Mark Randell: Yeah, I mean,

animal hoarding is a sort of

: 1030

01:03:16,825 --> 01:03:18,065

a whole other issue, really.

: 1031

01:03:18,065 --> 01:03:21,155

I know, certainly in Eastern Europe,

there's a very fine line between

: 1032

01:03:21,705 --> 01:03:23,525

animal hoarders and animal rescues.

: 1033

01:03:24,055 --> 01:03:29,365

Um, I went to a training session, uh, out

there and it was like talking to people

: 1034

01:03:29,595 --> 01:03:30,925

about how many animals they've got.

: 1035

01:03:30,925 --> 01:03:33,865

And lady said, I've got 236 dogs.

: 1036

01:03:33,865 --> 01:03:35,435

And I'm okay.

: 1037

01:03:35,665 --> 01:03:36,705

I think you've got a problem.

: 1038

01:03:36,745 --> 01:03:38,505

I don't think you've got an animal rescue.

: 1039

01:03:38,505 --> 01:03:39,345

I think you've got an issue.

: 1040

01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:46,120

Um, so, um, there is, there is a fine

line there, and it, it, when, when

: 1041

01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,980

you're in, uh, I'd say poorer countries,

those with, with lower animal welfare

: 1042

01:03:49,980 --> 01:03:56,880

standards, the animal hoarding, animal

rescue becomes a very, very fine line.

: 1043

01:03:57,850 --> 01:04:00,220

Dr. G: Yes, I was, uh, recently in Mexico.

: 1044

01:04:00,580 --> 01:04:03,140

And there's a huge overpopulation problem.

: 1045

01:04:03,150 --> 01:04:07,640

Plus there's a lot of problem with

like the, uh, street dogs, something

: 1046

01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,390

that here we don't see because

dogs in the street get picked up,

: 1047

01:04:11,710 --> 01:04:14,110

but there it's normal to see it.

: 1048

01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:20,140

And I saw, I saw many of the people

that were coming to these talks that I

: 1049

01:04:20,140 --> 01:04:23,900

was part of complaining about how they

have to have all these animals because

: 1050

01:04:23,910 --> 01:04:25,090

the government is not helping them.

: 1051

01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,860

Um, so it's not seeing the damage.

: 1052

01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:30,730

that they're causing to the animal.

: 1053

01:04:30,740 --> 01:04:33,910

Sometimes it's better to leave a

cat outside than bring it into a

: 1054

01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:36,170

home that is overcrowded, right?

: 1055

01:04:37,230 --> 01:04:37,750

Mark Randell: Absolutely.

: 1056

01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:40,810

And as I said, we did go to

the World Animal Day website.

: 1057

01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:46,825

There's a good article from, um,

from the group, the work that's

: 1058

01:04:46,825 --> 01:04:49,045

going on in Greece at the moment,

which is really, really good.

: 1059

01:04:49,045 --> 01:04:51,065

I mean, Greece had a real, real problem.

: 1060

01:04:51,515 --> 01:04:54,245

I still got a big problem, but

there's a good organization

: 1061

01:04:54,255 --> 01:04:55,495

working through that at the moment.

: 1062

01:04:55,535 --> 01:04:57,735

And that articulates that on the website.

: 1063

01:04:57,735 --> 01:05:03,535

So, I mean, Greece is, uh, there's

a lot of issues from, um, dogs being

: 1064

01:05:03,535 --> 01:05:09,535

chained up 24 hours a day to donkeys

being overused in, um, the tourist

: 1065

01:05:09,535 --> 01:05:12,125

industry to stray cats, stray dogs.

: 1066

01:05:13,065 --> 01:05:18,215

Um, huge issue, but they now have the

toughest jail terms for animal abusers in,

: 1067

01:05:18,295 --> 01:05:23,505

in Europe now, they have 10 year maximum

jail sentences, and I think it's a 30, 000

: 1068

01:05:23,555 --> 01:05:27,835

fine as well, which, um, hopefully will

be starting to have a bit of an impact.

: 1069

01:05:27,865 --> 01:05:30,795

So, you know, again, there's progress

in all these different areas.

: 1070

01:05:32,189 --> 01:05:33,629

Dr. G: This has been

extremely educational.

: 1071

01:05:33,629 --> 01:05:36,799

I'm hoping that our listeners

have gathered a lot of information

: 1072

01:05:36,799 --> 01:05:40,199

and learned about animal crimes

and the link and everything else.

: 1073

01:05:40,549 --> 01:05:45,439

So, can you share, uh, let's start

with individuals that are in, like,

: 1074

01:05:45,439 --> 01:05:49,009

animal control officers, humane

officers, any animal crimes, how can

: 1075

01:05:49,009 --> 01:05:53,049

they find out about the educational

programs that you, that you do?

: 1076

01:05:53,942 --> 01:05:55,802

Mark Randell: I mean, obviously

look at, naturewatch.

: 1077

01:05:55,802 --> 01:05:58,872

org, which will give you quite a

lot of information, quite a lot of

: 1078

01:05:58,872 --> 01:06:05,782

links on, um, the protect animals,

protect people, uh, section.

: 1079

01:06:05,782 --> 01:06:10,162

There's a reference library, which

takes you to all sorts of research on

: 1080

01:06:10,162 --> 01:06:13,062

the link from anywhere, all different

countries around the world, because

: 1081

01:06:13,062 --> 01:06:14,482

we wanted to put everything on there.

: 1082

01:06:15,252 --> 01:06:15,892

So that's quite.

: 1083

01:06:16,327 --> 01:06:18,077

quite a good forum.

: 1084

01:06:19,117 --> 01:06:23,307

If you want to look at how the foster

systems work, um, for those involved,

: 1085

01:06:23,377 --> 01:06:27,427

uh, potentially in, in domestic

abuse and abuse, have a look at,

: 1086

01:06:27,587 --> 01:06:30,817

um, Dogs Trust and Cats Protection.

: 1087

01:06:31,237 --> 01:06:34,677

They're different projects that

they have, uh, for foster care.

: 1088

01:06:35,427 --> 01:06:39,557

And what I would put a bit of a rider

in there is we know that globally

: 1089

01:06:39,557 --> 01:06:44,922

one in four people I've been involved

between the ages between 16 and 74,

: 1090

01:06:44,942 --> 01:06:46,382

I've been caught up in domestic abuse.

: 1091

01:06:46,392 --> 01:06:51,092

So it's highly likely that a number

of your listeners would either be, uh,

: 1092

01:06:51,112 --> 01:06:55,562

have been in a domestic abuse situation

or are going to be in a domestic

: 1093

01:06:55,562 --> 01:06:59,462

abuse situation or may not even know

they're in a domestic abuse situation.

: 1094

01:06:59,952 --> 01:07:03,982

Um, so go to the various

helplines and the domestic.

: 1095

01:07:04,512 --> 01:07:07,942

uh, abuse organizations put out

either nationally or locally

: 1096

01:07:07,952 --> 01:07:09,122

and find information out.

: 1097

01:07:09,122 --> 01:07:15,252

But just be a little bit careful in terms

of If you're in a situation where there

: 1098

01:07:15,252 --> 01:07:18,962

is uh, control over what you're allowed

to do, just be a little bit careful

: 1099

01:07:18,962 --> 01:07:23,322

on your um, on your internet history

searching and everything, but there's

: 1100

01:07:23,332 --> 01:07:25,122

some good information out there now.

: 1101

01:07:25,402 --> 01:07:30,032

Um, go to different police

websites, there's a, there's

: 1102

01:07:30,032 --> 01:07:30,802

a really good, the best.

: 1103

01:07:31,172 --> 01:07:33,252

police website in the

world that I've seen.

: 1104

01:07:33,252 --> 01:07:36,362

If you go to Edmonton Police in

Canada and have a look at their

: 1105

01:07:36,362 --> 01:07:39,812

website, they have really, really

good information on the link between

: 1106

01:07:39,812 --> 01:07:41,852

animal abuse and domestic violence.

: 1107

01:07:41,862 --> 01:07:43,152

So have a look at that one.

: 1108

01:07:43,152 --> 01:07:44,682

There's some good downloadables on that.

: 1109

01:07:47,952 --> 01:07:51,432

So just, just be aware of what the

signs are, really, and, and try and,

: 1110

01:07:51,562 --> 01:07:55,721

for me, try and, start trying to see

animal abuse as, as an opportunity to

: 1111

01:07:55,721 --> 01:07:59,872

prevent other crimes, as a preventative

tool, rather than extra work.

: 1112

01:08:00,232 --> 01:08:03,632

Try and put it into everyday

public protection strategy, really.

: 1113

01:08:03,772 --> 01:08:04,702

That's what I'd like to see.

: 1114

01:08:06,522 --> 01:08:07,072

Dr. G: Fantastic.

: 1115

01:08:07,102 --> 01:08:09,362

Well, again, thank you for your

time, and thank you for sharing

: 1116

01:08:09,362 --> 01:08:11,062

all your wealth of information.

: 1117

01:08:11,572 --> 01:08:15,522

And, uh, to everybody that's

listening, uh, thank you for spending

: 1118

01:08:15,542 --> 01:08:18,261

the time listening to us, and

thank you for caring about animals.