Episode 71

full
Published on:

11th Sep 2024

Anthrozoology and the Interconnection Between Humans and Animals with guest Marika Bell

The interconnection between humans and animals extends beyond the human-animal bond into many different ways in which we interact with animals. On this episode, Dr. G and guest Marika Bell, dive into Anthrozoology, behavior, shelter animals, and more. Marika also shares her experiences interviewing individuals who helped the animals from the Maui wildfires.

About our guest: Marika has an MA in Anthrozoology from the ⁠University of Exeter⁠, holds a ⁠BA in Zoology (UW)⁠ and has been a CPDT-KA (Certified Professional Dog Trainer, from the ⁠Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers⁠, since 2011. As the host of The Deal with Animals, she enjoys chatting with authors, nonprofits, professionals, academics, and enthusiasts about the various ways they connect with animals. She also offers mentoring to others who are interested in starting podcasts around animal welfare, knowledge, and connection. www.thedealwithanimals.com or Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thedealwithanimals/

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Transcript
DrG:

Hi, and welcome to the animal welfare junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today's guest is Marika Bell, host

of The Deal with Animals, which

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is a podcast about anthrozoology

and the interconnection

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between humans and animals.

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Welcome to the junction.

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Marika Bell: Hi.

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Hi.

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Nice to meet you.

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Thank you for having me on.

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DrG: Yes, thank you for being here.

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How about you start by letting our

listeners know about your background?

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What got you started into, into the field?

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Where you come from?

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Marika Bell: Uh, well, anthro zoology

is a relatively new field compared

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to a lot of other disciplines.

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Um, so it really wasn't around

when I was first going to college.

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I was kind of, I knew what

I wanted to do in general.

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I wanted to work with animals.

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Um, I really wanted to work with big cats.

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And there was really no regular

university sort of programs for, you

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know, that sort of connection with

animals, which is what I was going for.

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I didn't want to be a veterinarian,

nothing against veterinarians, but

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that wasn't where I saw myself.

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I actually, uh, faint when I see blood.

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So, uh, it didn't seem

like a good path for me.

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Uh, But I figured the closest I could get

to what I really wanted to do was zoology.

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So I did my degree in zoology

at Washington State University

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and then over at the University

of Washington I finished it off.

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So I stuck with that for a while

and didn't really know, you know,

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zoology is kind of one of those things

that really is sometimes pre vet.

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It's, it's a nice one to have if

you want to know about physiology,

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but it, it doesn't really get you

to the, um, philosophical stuff

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that you really want to be in when

you're looking at the connection

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between humans and other animals.

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So I was kind of stuck for a while.

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I worked at zoos for a little while.

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Uh, I worked at pet stores

for a little while, and, um,

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then I became a dog trainer.

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So, I did, uh, my own dog training

business, and when it came to moving from,

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um, I was, I was doing my dog training

business in New Zealand, uh, we decided

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to move back to the United States, and I

got a position with, um, the Washington

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Humane Society, which is an organization

now called, uh, ooh, something else,

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I have to look that one up again, it,

it doesn't stick in my head as much as

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Washington Humane Society, which is where

I worked for those few years, um, but.

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They basically took care of all of the

animals, uh, in the, uh, Washington, D.

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C.

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area.

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So in the district, they were responsible

for, um, all of, all of the dogs and cats,

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but also any, you know, goat that happened

to be wandering down the street in D.

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C., which does actually happen sometimes.

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So, uh, wildlife, all of that.

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Uh, so I worked with them

and I was the director for

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behavior and rehoming programs.

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And, uh, when I moved, From there,

and we decided to go back to

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the UK for a couple of years, I

kind of didn't know what to do.

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So I started looking into my master's

and found anthrazoology, which again

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was not available, you know, the,

I don't know, 15 years before that

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when I finished my zoology degree.

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So I jumped at that opportunity and

got my master's in anthrazoology

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at the University of Exeter.

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And, uh, really, I feel like

that sums up a lot of it.

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DrG: So what is anthrozoology?

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Because we're talking about the

interconnection between humans and

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animals, but I feel like it just means

so much more than just that definition.

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Marika Bell: Yeah, and it's called

by a lot of different names, too,

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again, because I think it's a very,

uh, you know, a fairly new discipline.

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You hear it called, uh, Uh, anthrozoology,

also zooanthropology, or, uh, human

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animal studies, which is probably

how it was first known, and, um, a

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fantastic book written by Margaret, uh,

oh, sorry, Margot de Mello, um, about

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humans and all of the ways in which

humans interact with other animals.

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And that is where it really hit me

that that's really what I'd been

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looking for the whole time, right?

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This, this idea of not

just how do animals behave?

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It's interesting.

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How do animals work?

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That's interesting.

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But, but why are they connecting with

us and how are they connecting with us?

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Uh, and examples of that would be, you

know, our dogs and cats, obviously.

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How, how is it that?

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That animal, the totally different

species, can live in our house.

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Like, that doesn't happen very

often in nature, where two species

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coexist and, and live together.

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And so when it does happen, it's,

it's really interesting, and

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especially with humans, because

um, we are such a weird animal.

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I mean, we are, we're, we're very strange.

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Um.

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Um.

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But we're still just animals.

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So the way that we have our

relationships with other animals,

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I just find very interesting.

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And the way that animals choose

to have a relationship with us.

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Now, sometimes it's not a choice.

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And that is something we also talk about

in anthrozoology, you know, the ways that

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humans use animals, the ways that humans

think about animals, um, and, and how they

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reflect our own cultures, you know, how

we use animals, um, in our art, in our

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music, um, you know, Even in our clothes

or our medicine, you know, there's,

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there's just animals always connecting

us, uh, no matter, you know, whether we

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like animals or not, whether we consider

ourselves animal lovers or not, they're,

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they're always in our lives and, uh, we

can't really get away from that and if

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we did, we probably wouldn't survive.

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So I, I just, I find

all of it fascinating.

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Um, and I, I really like to share it,

which is why I started the podcast.

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DrG: Excellent.

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So, yeah.

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And, and what are the kind of things

that I was looking through and I have

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listened to some of your episodes.

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So, I see that you

separated into like series.

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Yeah.

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Um, so what got you, what got

you started into doing that?

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Marika Bell: Well, again, I think

I've alluded to this in just that

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there are so many subjects, right?

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There's, there's, it's a

multidisciplinary area.

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There are so many different areas where

anthrozoology comes into it, even if it's

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not considered anthrozoology technically.

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So, um, Because there's so much to cover.

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I really feel like I needed to narrow the

scope a little bit and create these series

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so that people could come in if they

don't know anything about the subject.

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It's kind of a 101 on that subject, but

also for people who do know about a little

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bit about, say, animals in religion,

they could come into that series.

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And, uh, still learn something because

it's, it's trying to, I try to get

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guests from all over the world.

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So it's not just a, an American or

a Western philosophy focused, um,

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podcast, but I also want to bring in

subjects that are surprising, right?

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Something that, that maybe

people haven't thought of before.

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It's not the same story that they've

read in 15 different books about animals.

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You know, it's going to be something

hopefully a little bit different.

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DrG: Yeah, from looking at, I'm, I'm

looking right now at the, at the website.

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So any of our listeners that want to

look into this, the deal with animals.

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com, and I'm looking at your series

library and you have all of these

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different, different topics that

are, that are very varied, right?

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Like really different.

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Like we're going everywhere

from vegan culture to animals

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in the divine and one health.

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So I mean, it's like, it's,

it goes all over the place.

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Marika Bell: Yeah, and, and I like

to keep things different, right?

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I don't want to stick with one

thing for too long because I myself

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have a problem with getting bored.

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Yeah.

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So I want to learn something,

I want to learn something new.

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So this is, I mean, I did a lot of

this for me, I, I, I love sharing it,

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but I started the podcast because I

personally needed to talk to people about.

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You know, these sorts of subjects, I

like to learn about them and, uh, I knew

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that there were people out there that

would love to share that information.

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So, uh, if I want to learn something,

if I find it interesting, I think that

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my, my listeners will also find it

interesting, which is one reason why

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I do like to jump around a little bit

from series to series, even if the

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series itself stays pretty focused.

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DrG: I think that, you know,

one of the reasons I started

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the podcast was very similar.

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I wanted to let people know, like educate

them and educate myself on all, all

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sorts of things, animal welfare, which

we think about animal welfare as, as one

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definition, but it involves everything.

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It involves everything from how

we feed our animals to animal

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cruelty investigations, to just

all sorts of different things.

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So I find that podcasting gives us a

voice to be able to give that information.

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So, you know, do you, do you feel that

it's That podcasts overall are a benefit

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to shelters and advocacy efforts and such.

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Marika Bell: Yeah, in fact, I, one

of the things that I have done in the

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last year or so is started a mentoring,

um, part of what I'm doing to help

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people do that and I really focus on

people who are either in the area of

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animal welfare or animal education

and trying to get more information out

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there that's accessible for people,

you know, who, who maybe aren't going

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to have the money to get the journals.

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Most of us don't have the money

to get all the journals because

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they're actually really expensive.

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Uh, you gotta join a lot of

different, uh, societies.

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And, you know, maybe they don't have

the time to read or they don't have, you

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know, the, the know, in, in the know about

all of the jargon for different things.

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And those are all roadblocks for people to

learn anything new about, or to even enjoy

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themselves trying to learn something new,

um, whether, you know, in any subject.

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So podcasts are a really accessible

way to get your information out

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there and also to learn from,

you know, what is put out there.

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And you have to sort through it a

little bit, obviously, know where

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your information is coming from.

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But it really is.

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an excellent way of, especially if you're

an organization like Animal Welfare,

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of getting, you know, getting your

community to know about what you're doing.

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Just because you start a podcast

doesn't mean you need to have

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50, 000 or 200, 000 listeners.

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It could just be for your community

and that will be a successful podcast.

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So if you're an animal welfare

organization and you have a hard time,

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you know, getting people to, to hear about

your adoption, you know, your adoption,

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um, Animals that are up for adoption or

your, your events that you're having, or

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just want the community have more of a

connection with your organization, knowing

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who your staff are, you know, knowing

what, what, uh, what things you offer.

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You can start a podcast with

that kind of information.

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And.

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And put it out there for the community,

even if, you know, it seems like you

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only have 10 listeners to start with,

you're still educating people, you're

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still getting that information out

there, and they're going to talk about

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it, and you will be able to build on

that until you've got people listening

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and, you know, using it for to as a

resource, not to just know about your

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organization, but to know about what they

should do when they've adopted an animal.

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DrG: Looking at your, at your

list, your last season was about

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the animals of the Maui wildfires.

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And I know that you have been doing,

uh, having putting forth a lot of

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effort into the fundraising and that.

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So what led you to create that season?

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And can you give us a little

bit of a summary about it?

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Marika Bell: Yeah.

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So animals of the Maui wildfires,

which is my last season, uh,

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last series of season one.

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was really, uh, a labor of love.

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It was really different than

all of my other episodes.

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So generally my episodes are

a one on one or a round table

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episodes where I interview

someone about what they're doing.

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Um, but for animals of the Maui wildfires,

I really came to it in a different way.

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Um, I interviewed, I went to Maui, I

was going to Maui anyway for a vacation,

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but it was, it ended up being two months

after the wildfires, and I felt like

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I should talk to Maui Humane Society

about what had happened, because I

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didn't really know what had happened.

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So when I went there and I, I talked

with them, I really, I got this feeling

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that, uh, something really important

had happened with the community.

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Something really, uh, Life changing

had happened for the people who

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were there and, uh, who saw some of

the things that they saw, but were

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also able to help their community.

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recover and we're continuing to recover.

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And I wanted to be able to share

that, but I, at the time I listened

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back to my recording and I realized

I just didn't have enough to be

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able to share that story well.

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So I sat on it for a while and didn't

really, couldn't really figure out

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what to do because I definitely

wanted to share that information.

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I had the platform to share it.

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Um, and I felt like that was, uh, uh,

you know, within what I should be doing.

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It's my responsibility to do when you have

a story like that, that you want to share.

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But, um, I didn't have enough voices.

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So I call, I called them back and

said, Hey, is there anybody else

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who wants to talk, uh, about this?

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And I ended up interviewing a few more

people who were staff at Maui Humane

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Society about their experiences and

they were ready to talk about it.

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They wanted to talk about it.

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So what we did was we, we did these

interviews and then we put them together

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more as a story arc as a narrative rather

than an one on one interview style.

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Um, Okay.

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And, uh, I had a fantastic audio

engineer come in who created some

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beautiful music for the series and,

uh, did all of the sound design.

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It was excellent.

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Uh, it took a lot of time, much more

time than it takes to do a single episode

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or even a single series, typically.

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Um, but it was, it was well worth it.

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It was, it was, It was an amazing

project to be able to work on.

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And on top of that, we're running a

fundraiser for Maui Humane Society to

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continue their work and to really get the

word out about the series so that they can

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share their stories and their messages.

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We're sure, primarily messages of hope

and, and, you know, hearing about the

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reunification stories of the animals that

came out of the burn zone is wonderful.

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Um, but also, you know, sharing some of

what they went through in a way that made

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them feel comfortable, I think was also

really important because I, I think that

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sometimes these, these disasters happen.

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And We all really feel for the people

who they're happening to and the

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communities, but because there's so

much of that in the world right now

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that we're hearing, not that I don't

think that that's a new phenomenon.

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I think there's always been, you know,

natural disasters and, um, and wars and

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things happening that we have a hard

time coming to grips with, but we hear

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about them more now because Of media

and, and how accessible everything

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is, the downside to accessibility

maybe, um, but we, we, I don't want

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to say we forget about when something

happens, but something else takes its

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place so fast, unfortunately, uh, so

with the anniversary of the wildfires,

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uh, just passed, uh, August 8th.

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Um, I really wanted to remind people

what had happened and what we need

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to do to prevent it in the future.

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And so it seemed like a really good

time to release it, uh, right before

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the, the anniversary and run this

fundraiser through August to try to

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get 10, 000 for Maui Humane Society to

continue all of their fantastic work.

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So if anybody wants to donate

to that, they can do that

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through my website as well.

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DrG: Yeah.

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And I think that one, one thing that

you said that is important for people

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to understand is the impact that

it has on the people that take care

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on the end of the animals, right?

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Because We hear about the animals of Maui

and we're thinking about the horrible

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things that the animals are enduring.

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But we also have to take into

consideration what the humans that

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are helping those animals that

have to see that, that, you know,

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or that are experiencing losses,

what their story is as well.

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Marika Bell: Yeah, and that happens all

the time in animal welfare, doesn't it?

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I mean, it's not just

when a disaster happens.

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In animal shelters, it's one of those

things where it really never ends.

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We end up seeing sort of the worst of,

of everything, um, related to that bond

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with humans and, and companion animals.

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Um, and we can forget that there's a

really positive side of that as well.

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DrG: Yeah, we, we talk a lot

about compassion fatigue and,

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uh, and the impact that having to

deal with these bad situations.

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And then on top of that, the, the public

that is not very well educated at times.

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It brings more grief to the humane,

you know, everybody in shelter med and

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the veterinarians and everything else.

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And it, you know, it takes everybody

learning and becoming educated and working

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together so that it makes it a better

environment for the animals and for the

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people that are working with the animals.

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Because realistically, if we don't

have those shelter workers, who's going

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to take care of the animals, right?

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So we need to be a little bit more kind.

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Marika Bell: Well, and it shouldn't

be an us versus them, right?

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Like, we're part of the community

and they're part of the solution

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when it comes to issues of animal

sheltering and animal welfare.

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And so we have to be working on it as

a, as a team and, and not seeing it as

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a, as a, you know, you know, This group

versus that group and, and, you know,

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we can all be working on it together.

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And I think, again, podcasts

are a great way of doing that.

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Being able to share your story and making

the staff human for people, for the, for

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the community, I think is so important.

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Because it really is really

very easy for people to say,

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well, I couldn't work there.

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I think we've all heard that, right?

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I couldn't do that.

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I couldn't do that job.

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I never do what you do much.

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Yes, that one.

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You're like, oh that hurts

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But I think what people really understand

why we work in animal sheltering And,

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and why it's important if you love

animals to know what's going on in

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animal sheltering and animal welfare.

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You know, it is important.

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You can't just, you shouldn't

just close your eyes and hope

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somebody else is doing the job.

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DrG: Right.

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And it's, and even if you could

not do it, at least be supportive

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to the people that are doing it.

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Because it is hard, it is hard work.

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Yeah.

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like your whole series eight

was centered on animal shelter

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world, uh, in the, what is it?

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The world of animal

welfare and sheltering.

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So can you tell us what, what

people, because we have a quite

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a few of our listeners that

are, that are shelter people.

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So can you tell us what they could

expect to, to learn from that series?

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Marika Bell: Yeah, that series

was a really fun one again,

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because my background is in

animal welfare and sheltering.

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Um, I, I first started training dogs, By

working with shelters and, and training

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dogs in a shelter environment, met my

first pit bull that way, and, uh, I

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remember, if I could just share this

quick story, I remember that, uh, her

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name was Una, and she was this white

pit bull, and, uh, I wasn't sure if we

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were allowed to go in with her, because

we didn't see pit bulls very often back

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then, you know, that was, that was a

time where people were still euthanizing

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pit bulls most of the time whenever they

came to the shelter, and, uh, I was told

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that, yes, she was very nice, I should

go ahead and work with her, it was fine.

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So I went in there, and I brought a

hairbrush, and I brought my clicker, and

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I brought some treats, and I was gonna see

if I could groom her a little bit, and I

341

:

showed her my hairbrush, and she cowered.

342

:

And it just, my, my

heart, you know, it hurt.

343

:

Um, so I sat down, crossed my legs, and

she came over and curled up in my lap.

344

:

Her entire, you know, huge 80

pound ness curled as tight as she

345

:

could in a tiny ball on my lap.

346

:

Um, and I couldn't pick up the

hairbrush because she would just,

347

:

she would, she would shrink away.

348

:

So I just sat there

and I cuddled with her.

349

:

And that's how we spent our,

you know, 15 or 20 minutes.

350

:

And it was lovely and I have,

I've loved pit bulls ever since.

351

:

They're beautiful.

352

:

She, she was a beautiful,

beautiful animal.

353

:

Um, Sorry, I, now I've

forgotten your question.

354

:

Oh, what can people

expect from the series?

355

:

Yeah, from Series 8.

356

:

Um, so, I think there's a lot in

Series 8, uh, for people who maybe

357

:

want to learn more about animal

welfare and what actually goes on.

358

:

Uh, but also I really wanted to make it

a series that was going to be useful for

359

:

people who are already in animal welfare.

360

:

So I talked to, uh, quite a few people

who are leaders within the animal welfare

361

:

community in things like new ideas, right?

362

:

What, what are new things

that we could be doing?

363

:

Um, What are things that are working

that are, uh, really progressing

364

:

animal welfare and sheltering in a

way that is humane, in a way that is,

365

:

uh, connecting with the community.

366

:

So it, it was really a way of.

367

:

Trying to find that nice middle ground

between getting some information out

368

:

there for people who didn't know anything

about animal welfare and really just

369

:

want to know what's going on versus

the people who, who really already

370

:

know what's going on, but maybe want a

new perspective or want some new ideas

371

:

and what they can be doing a little

bit different to make things better.

372

:

DrG: There's something because, you

know, it takes everybody coming together

373

:

and it's about collaboration and not

everything works everywhere, but a

374

:

shelter may be struggling, whether

it be with their intake protocols

375

:

or with how they take care of the

animals, their behavior, you know,

376

:

adoption, marketing, all that stuff.

377

:

And there may be another shelter

that can help them with that.

378

:

So being able to work together

with, with other groups instead of.

379

:

I just see so much divisiveness

anymore, you know, like people saying,

380

:

Oh, our shelter is better than that

shelter because they do X, Y, and

381

:

Z, or they don't do X, Y, and Z, and

it's like, let's lift each other up

382

:

and let's help each other, right?

383

:

Because in the end, it's about

getting these animals taken care

384

:

of and getting them adopted.

385

:

Marika Bell: Yeah.

386

:

You know, one of my favorite episodes

in that series was a roundtable

387

:

I did with Nanette McCann, who is

the executive director at a local

388

:

animal shelter here, um, called,

uh, Homeward Pet Adoption Center.

389

:

And, uh, Corey Regnerus Kell, who

works in New Zealand and, uh, is a,

390

:

um, oh, now I can't remember his title.

391

:

He, he is the District manager.

392

:

He, he oversees quite a few of

the, uh, shelters, the, the SPCAs

393

:

in New Zealand and, you know,

two different worlds, right?

394

:

Like two different approaches, um,

to animal welfare and sheltering,

395

:

uh, some, some of them similar and

some of them, you know, we were just

396

:

learning from each other the whole time.

397

:

It was a great conversation.

398

:

We, we all had a really good,

good time with that one.

399

:

And, you know, And the amount of times

we were like, Oh, so how do you do this?

400

:

Oh, how do you, you know, it was just

really fun conversation and learning

401

:

from each other, which was great.

402

:

DrG: So switching gears a little

bit, because it goes along with

403

:

shelter problems that we see a lot

of animals that end up in shelters

404

:

is because of behavioral issues.

405

:

So first, I don't think that

that many people in the community

406

:

understand the difference between

a trainer and a behaviorist.

407

:

So, can you tell us about that,

what, what the difference is?

408

:

Marika Bell: Um, a behaviorist.

409

:

is very science focused, and

410

:

they like to work with the quadrants

often, and if that's not a term that

411

:

people have heard, it's a pretty common

dog training term, um, talking about,

412

:

uh, positive reinforcement, negative

reinforcement, positive punishment,

413

:

negative punishment, um, and, and

behaviorism stems from uh, Uh, a

414

:

lot of work previously done within

animal behavior, um, the science.

415

:

So it's a very science based

approach to dog training.

416

:

A dog trainer is often

a behaviorist, right?

417

:

A behaviorist is often a dog trainer.

418

:

Not always.

419

:

Uh, but dog trainers, I would say

for the most part, again, this

420

:

is overgeneralization, focused on

obedience and on training cues.

421

:

Whereas, maybe a behaviorist is,

is similar, but a behaviorist might

422

:

also be focused on, uh, figuring

out where that behavior is coming

423

:

from in more of a scientific way.

424

:

So they want to, to solve a behavior

problem sometimes, and, and that takes

425

:

really looking at context, right?

426

:

Looking at the whole context.

427

:

And I'm not saying just a dog

trainer doesn't do that because they

428

:

usually have to do that as well.

429

:

Um, but a lot of it just depends on the

approach and, and what the end goals are.

430

:

Sometimes you can get a dog trainer

who, who has no scientific background,

431

:

um, is not certified in any kind of dog

training and they, they can still be

432

:

a good dog trainer, um, because they

understand, you know, dog body language,

433

:

or they understand, you know, how to

teach a cue, um, and that's great,

434

:

but they might not be able to tell you

why the dog is food resource guarding.

435

:

Um, but they might be able to solve

the behavior one way or the other.

436

:

Yeah.

437

:

It kind of depends on, you know,

what your, what kind of connection

438

:

you're looking to have with your pets.

439

:

DrG: So what, what do you need

to do to become certified as

440

:

a professional dog trainer?

441

:

Marika Bell: Yeah.

442

:

Uh, well there's quite a few different

certifications out there in the world.

443

:

Um, when I was looking to become

a certified dog trainer, I went

444

:

through the certification council

for professional dog trainers.

445

:

It's called CPDT.

446

:

And back then I was living in

New Zealand and I was again,

447

:

starting my dog training business.

448

:

And I'd had some previous experience,

um In practicing with clickers and

449

:

in, I had a certification through

the animal behavior college as well,

450

:

which is a dog training program,

but I didn't feel like I was really

451

:

ready to take clients just from that.

452

:

So I actually did a whole lot of

reading, read pretty much every dog

453

:

training book I could get my hands on.

454

:

And I really became focused on, uh,

positive reinforcement style dog training.

455

:

Uh, so that, the certification council,

that was a really good match for me in

456

:

terms of how to become and, and what kind

of certification I wanted, uh, because

457

:

that often tells you what kind of dog

trainer you're going to get, depending

458

:

on what kind of certification they have.

459

:

So, yeah.

460

:

CPDT is very much focused on positive

reinforcement style training, um, but

461

:

they are very inclusive as well and

understand when there is sometimes

462

:

a need to, to think outside the box.

463

:

Also, um, you know, cookies aren't always

the answer to everything and positive

464

:

reinforcement isn't always about cookies.

465

:

So it's, it's really important to

know your science and to know why

466

:

animals do what they do and, and

dogs, if, if you're a dog trainer.

467

:

Uh, so I was living in New Zealand and,

uh, they didn't have a certification

468

:

program set up in New Zealand at all.

469

:

So I had to kind of start that right from

the ground up and find my own proctor and

470

:

get my own, um, you know, to sit the exam.

471

:

I, of course, I was the only one

sitting in the exam and I was just

472

:

sitting there with, with the proctor.

473

:

Um, and yeah.

474

:

It was it was kind of funny, but

it made it work, you know, found a

475

:

room to in the local college that

let me borrow and and I got my

476

:

certification done through through that.

477

:

So it's it's kind of a long process.

478

:

You have to get a lot of, uh, letter of

recommendations from colleagues from from

479

:

veterinarians that you've worked with.

480

:

And even from clients.

481

:

So you actually start taking clients

typically before you become certified

482

:

just to get that background.

483

:

Um, but what a lot of what I had

done is I'd gone into shelters and

484

:

worked with the shelter dogs for free.

485

:

Just offered my services to the shelters

So that I could get that practice in

486

:

because as much as you read books about

dog training You know dogs are not

487

:

recipes dogs are dogs are individuals and

they aren't going to follow the recipe

488

:

They're not gonna follow the literature.

489

:

They don't read And they will always

throw something new at you, you know

490

:

I can't, all the times that I thought

this, this should work, this should work.

491

:

Why is this not working?

492

:

Um, because, you know, dogs, they, they

are going to teach you something new.

493

:

So it's good to get that hands on

experience and working with a shelter, if

494

:

there's a shelter that really could use

that help, is a great way of doing that.

495

:

DrG: Yeah, I think that it would be very

beneficial for, humane organizations and

496

:

shelters to have dog trainers, both for

trying to keep animals from coming into

497

:

the shelter to begin with, you know, if it

is something that can be worked with, with

498

:

the pet owner, you know, if the pet owner

is having a problem that is manageable and

499

:

the pet owner is willing to work with it,

because we got to remember that we need to

500

:

have the willingness to, to do the work.

501

:

Um, and then also to make

animals more adoptive, right?

502

:

Like it, what is the overall benefit

of, of training for shelter animals?

503

:

Marika Bell: You know, I think the

biggest benefit to the shelter animal

504

:

is that Interaction with humans, whether

they learn anything from the training

505

:

or not, it's it's giving them something

to do being in a shelter is very boring.

506

:

Being in a shelter is is stressful.

507

:

And anytime we're.

508

:

If the animal can get out and interact

with someone, if they can learn something

509

:

from that as well, great, but often

they're actually too stressed in a

510

:

shelter to be able to take on much.

511

:

Uh, I think one of the, one of the

first things you learn as a dog trainer

512

:

is that dogs learn much more easily

when they're happy and when they're

513

:

comfortable and when they're having fun.

514

:

Uh, that's sometimes hard to

get to in a shelter environment.

515

:

Uh, it's a little easier in a foster.

516

:

Um, but if they can just get out

and have a little bit of fun, um,

517

:

you do a little training, it gives

them something to think about.

518

:

It's such a great way of, of

doing enrichment with the dogs.

519

:

So I honestly, I feel like that

is the most important part, um,

520

:

for the, for the dog trainer.

521

:

Yeah.

522

:

They're going to get some experience.

523

:

The dogs are definitely

going to learn something.

524

:

Um, yeah, they're, they're going to have,

they're going to have a little bit of,

525

:

you A background and how to sit better,

you know, how to sit in a stressful

526

:

circumstance, then they would have,

if they didn't do any training at all.

527

:

So, anything, you know, that's

positive, anything that's not

528

:

going to stress them out further.

529

:

Uh, don't push too hard if you're

working with a dog in a shelter.

530

:

Certainly don't use any techniques that

are punishment based or, um, going to

531

:

cause them any kind of fear or pain.

532

:

And I would say that for all dogs,

but particularly for dogs in a

533

:

shelter that is now what they need.

534

:

Um, and, and if they are behaving in a

way that makes you think that that is

535

:

what they, you know, would benefit from,

then, then you've really got to have a

536

:

long conversation about, you know, what,

what is, you What the dog is there for

537

:

and whether they're going to make it

through the system at all, but I, I truly

538

:

feel that, um, you shouldn't need any of

those techniques to work with an animal.

539

:

You know, my background was working with

big cats for a while, and, uh, you, you

540

:

don't use those techniques with big cats.

541

:

You, you don't put a

prong collar on a big cat.

542

:

You don't use an electric shock collar.

543

:

Um, if you tried to do

that, they would kill you.

544

:

So, um, you, you.

545

:

work with them in a positive way.

546

:

You know, you, you have to, um,

often you're, you're working between,

547

:

you know, you've got a cage between

yourself and a big cat, um, you

548

:

often don't have that with a dog.

549

:

So, you, you literally, even if you

wanted to, to punish or use any kind of

550

:

negative, uh, punishment or, sorry, uh,

positive punishment to actually, uh, work

551

:

with a big cat, you couldn't, because you

often, you know, you have this barrier.

552

:

Uh, and if you don't have to with big

cats, why would you have to with dogs?

553

:

DrG: Yeah, I mean, it, it is

a huge pet peeve of mine, is

554

:

the electric shock collars.

555

:

Um, because I think that you get

one of two things you get either

556

:

submission or aggression, right?

557

:

Like that's going to be the two

things that they're going to come

558

:

up with you're injuring this animal.

559

:

They're confused They don't they don't

necessarily associate the the discomfort

560

:

with the action So then they're going

to learn to either be afraid of you and

561

:

hide from you or they're going to, you

know, not be able to take it anymore

562

:

and become aggressive and we see some

Some animals in in shelters that You

563

:

know, are trained in these manners.

564

:

And then you get the, the person coming

into the adoption and they're handed

565

:

this remote and told, here you go.

566

:

This is how you're going

to control your dog.

567

:

And you know, there are some really

horrible stories of things that

568

:

happen with these electric collars.

569

:

Once again, once that dog has decided

that it's not putting up with it, or

570

:

just the fact that you're not really

doing anything to control the behavior.

571

:

All you're doing is just kind

of like putting the stop.

572

:

This temporary stop.

573

:

You're not getting to the root of why

the dog is doing what they're doing.

574

:

It's, it's almost like,

like, like an easy fix.

575

:

Marika Bell: Yeah, you're not, and

you're not creating a relationship with

576

:

that dog that, that is based on trust.

577

:

Um, again, if it's, if it's equipment

that you wouldn't use on your

578

:

child, I wouldn't use it on a dog.

579

:

Um, I think it's cruel.

580

:

There are, I know there are other people

who use those sorts of equipment and,

581

:

and, You know, you'll hear the whole,

um, if you use it the right way, then

582

:

it's not cruel, or use it the right

way, and it teaches the dog quickly, so

583

:

they can't, you know, hurt themselves,

and, and I understand that, that that's,

584

:

you know, for some dogs, it probably

does work, you know, certain, certain

585

:

personality dogs, Um, you know, maybe,

but there are, there's fallout no

586

:

matter what, any dog, there's going

to be some fallout, whether you see it

587

:

right away or not, and that could be a

damaged relationship with that person.

588

:

Um, it could be that they're not

willing to listen to you when

589

:

that thing is not on their neck.

590

:

Um, you know, there, there is, there

is, uh, damage to someone when you

591

:

use pain to, to train them, whether

it seems to work in the moment or not.

592

:

So yeah, I would always tell

people that that's not appropriate.

593

:

DrG: Yeah.

594

:

And especially my fear is when people are

using it because of aggressive problems

595

:

Marika Bell: and, and

596

:

DrG: that's only, I would

never use it for a dog who is

597

:

Marika Bell: already

showing aggression for sure.

598

:

I mean, like I said, I would never

use them, but, but yes, I would be

599

:

particularly concerned if someone

was trying to use it for, any kind of

600

:

pain or punishment technique in a dog

that was already showing aggression.

601

:

DrG: So what, what would you say to

shelters as far as things that they can do

602

:

to improve the quality of life of animals?

603

:

Since we're seeing these animals that

are staying in shelters for longer

604

:

periods of times than we used to.

605

:

What, what are the kind of

things that shelters can do to,

606

:

to do better by these animals?

607

:

Marika Bell: That's a

really good question.

608

:

Um, you know, I think we need to

get them out of the shelters faster.

609

:

And, And I know that there, there

are some difficulties with that and a

610

:

lot of, it's a blanket statement that

the, that doesn't solve the problem.

611

:

But, Anything we can do that will

help the dog or the cat in the shelter

612

:

be more comfortable is important.

613

:

Um, I think training is a

really good option for that.

614

:

I think anything we can do to, again,

get the community more involved.

615

:

These are their animals, and I think they

need to see it that, that way, you know.

616

:

Um, again, I think people should, I think

shelters should start their own podcasts.

617

:

Um, I think that that's a way of, of

being able to connect with the community.

618

:

Um, And it doesn't cost a lot of money.

619

:

It, it, it does take some time, um,

and it does take some, some learning

620

:

the equipment and learning the process.

621

:

But it's not difficult.

622

:

I mean, honestly, if I could do it,

then it's definitely not difficult.

623

:

I'm not a techie person.

624

:

Um, and, and if they just, you know,

want to do it, I don't know, you know, a

625

:

short series, six episodes on, you know,

what to do once you get your dog home.

626

:

Or what to look for when you're

actually looking for a dog to adopt.

627

:

Like, what are the things

you should be looking for?

628

:

And, you know, spoiler, it is not the

color of the dog, um, nor the size.

629

:

Sometimes it's actually more

about the dog's personality.

630

:

Um, and, you know, maybe their hair and

their size comes into that a little bit.

631

:

But, you know, looking at what

kind of personality that you, you

632

:

can live with is much, much more

important than the breed of the dog.

633

:

Um, but that's my soapbox.

634

:

So if, you know, if you can, if you

can start a podcast, if you can get

635

:

someone doing even just, you know, five

minutes of interviewing the other staff

636

:

members so that the community knows

who's working there and what they're

637

:

doing and how important their jobs are.

638

:

I think it's a great way of connecting.

639

:

And I think anything like that,

even if it doesn't feel like

640

:

it's directly for the animals.

641

:

Um, Anytime we can connect

with the community and get

642

:

the community's involvement is

going to be beneficial for them.

643

:

Like I said, get the animals out faster.

644

:

DrG: Yeah, I think that when people

see a dog or a cat that's available for

645

:

adoption, they see it on TV or something.

646

:

It just makes them kind of

almost bond through, through

647

:

the media with that animal.

648

:

So if we get, if we get people to learn

about the residents of the individual

649

:

shelters, It may encourage people to

come in and meet them and if anything,

650

:

take him home, take him for a day or,

you know, like, even if you're taking

651

:

them to the park and bringing them back,

at least it's, it's something, you know.

652

:

Marika Bell: Oh gosh.

653

:

Yeah.

654

:

I love the ones where the dogs

can actually get out of the

655

:

shelter for more than just a walk.

656

:

You know, they get to go to the beach

or they get to go to the mountain

657

:

and have a bit of a hike and get out.

658

:

Um, not for every dog.

659

:

Not every dog is going to

be up for that, you know.

660

:

Um, but yeah.

661

:

In a lot of cases, that's a great

way to burn some energy, uh, and, and

662

:

really get to know the dog better too.

663

:

I don't know if you can truly know

an animal until you've walked them.

664

:

You know, dogs, until you've been on

the other end of that leash, you just

665

:

don't know what they're going to be like.

666

:

Um, take them out to all sorts of

places, you know, to find out how,

667

:

how they feel about being in public.

668

:

Find out how they feel

about being near other dogs.

669

:

If you walk past a dog park,

you know, find out how they

670

:

feel about being in the woods.

671

:

Um, you know, ask them questions.

672

:

I think maybe that's a good answer too.

673

:

It's just ask, ask that animal a lot

of questions while they're there.

674

:

That's, you know, they're,

they're there for a while.

675

:

Um, sometimes too long, but even

if it's only for a few days,

676

:

ask that dog so many questions.

677

:

DrG: So is there anything that we have

not touched on or anything else that

678

:

you want to share with our audience?

679

:

Um, I

680

:

Marika Bell: guess one of the things

that I would love to share with people

681

:

is, Uh, and this still is on the

same vein as, as starting a podcast.

682

:

If you just don't feel like your

organization can start a podcast, um,

683

:

doesn't have time, doesn't have the money.

684

:

Uh, again, I don't think those

should be huge barriers, but if

685

:

you feel like they are, try to

just be guests on other podcasts.

686

:

Like that's a great way of getting, you

know, getting more your organization out

687

:

there more about what you're doing is find

some other podcasts and try to be guests.

688

:

Um, you know, there's, there's always.

689

:

I think that's a good story to tell

about how you became, you know, part

690

:

of animal welfare or a particular

animal that you want to share.

691

:

I think that that's a

really good way of, of Yeah.

692

:

Raising awareness for your mission, but

also interacting with the community more.

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DrG: So anybody listening, if

you want to get more information,

694

:

visit the deal with animals.

695

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com and you can get information

on the podcast, on the episodes.

696

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And also if you're so inclined to donate

to the animals from the Maui wildfires.

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Marika Bell: Yeah.

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Thank you so much.

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DrG: Yeah.

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Thank you so much for being here and

for everything that you're doing.

701

:

Keep up doing the good work.

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:

And for everybody that's

listening, thank you for listening

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:

and thank you for caring.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.