Episode 77

full
Published on:

8th Mar 2025

Behind the Scenes of HBO's "Chimp Crazy"

Join us on a behind the scenes look at the HBO documentary Chimp Crazy. Dr. G is joined by Brittany Peet,  General Counsel for Captive Animal Law Enforcement for the PETA Foundation, and Angela Scott, volunteer turned whistleblower who helped rescue several chimps from the Missouri Primate Foundation. On this episode, we discuss the documentary as well as some facts not mentioned on the show. Brittany Peet also shares an overview of the Captive Primate Safety Act, and how we need this legislation for the welfare of primates and the safety of humans.

You can help us promote animal welfare by liking, rating and sharing this episode. Together, we can make a difference for animals and our communities.

Transcript
DrG:

Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today is a really special episode

because as many as many of you know, I

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am the Director of Welfare of a primate

group called For the Love of Primates.

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And one of the big things that, that

we want people to know and be educated

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is on the fact that animals like

these, primates, whether they're chimps

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or whether they're small monkeys,

they just do not make good pets.

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So I have two amazing guests.

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Uh, I have Angela Scott, who has been,

uh, on the program Chimp Crazy that

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is showing on HBO on the documentary.

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And I have Brittany Peet, PETA

Foundation, General Counsel for

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Captive Animal Law Enforcement.

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So welcome both of you.

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Welcome to the junction.

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Brittany Peet: Thank you so much.

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Thank you so much for having us.

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Yes.

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DrG: Excellent.

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So Brittany, do you want to give us

your background and what it is that, you

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know, brought you to working in PETA?

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Brittany Peet: Sure.

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Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm an animal

lawyer and I started with the PETA

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Foundation right out of law school.

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They have a wonderful fellowship program

for new law school graduates who are

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interested in Animal Law, so I started

15 years ago and, and I never left.

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And I was inspired to get into

this field by a dog that I

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had at the time named Wesley.

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And, um, I was doing some research

for a paper about what pigs go

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through in slaughter and other

animals who are used for food.

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And I was reading about how intelligent

pigs are and how they're as smart

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as, or smarter than, um, than dogs.

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And so it, um, it really got me

thinking about how intelligent

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my dog, Wesley, was and what, you

know, what a big personality he had.

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And, um, and so I stopped eating meat

after that and decided to, to try

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to pursue a career in animal law.

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And thankfully it worked out.

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DrG: Awesome.

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And you work primarily

with captive animal law.

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So what does that mean?

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Brittany Peet: So, um, my team works

on, um, issues relating to animals and

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entertainment in the United States.

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So we advocate on behalf of animals who

are used in circuses, roadside zoos,

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traveling shows, and the entertainment

industry in the United States.

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DrG: Excellent.

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So Angela, how about you let our audience

know who you are and why you're here?

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Angela Scott: Okay, so my name is Angela.

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Um, I started working with chimpanzees in

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And it was then that I knew that

chimpanzees and primates was

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what I wanted to do with my life.

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And from there, I was under the

impression that Chimp Party and Missouri

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Primate Foundation was a sanctuary.

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So I went there with the hopes of

getting chimpanzee experience and

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contributing to chimps, primates

being in a sanctuary type setting.

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Unfortunately, that was not the case,

and that was what got me to where I am

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today, uh, reaching out to PETA in 2015

to try to free the chimps that were

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enslaved at Missouri Primate Foundation.

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DrG: So for anybody that that's

not familiar with it, Chimps Crazy

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is this HBO documentary that is

following just basically what I would

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consider crazy chimp people, right?

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Kind of like we talk about crazy cat

people when there's somebody that

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just has too many cats, uh, to, to

the point of almost like hoarding.

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And Chimp Crazy seems to follow

the same thing, just hoarding of

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these incredibly intelligent animals

who are just kept like prisoners.

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So Angela, how about you tell us

the story as far as When you, when

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you went there, like what drove

you to, to join the organization?

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And actually I do want to bring

up, they didn't use to be an

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nonprofit at first, right?

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Weren't they like an actual, uh, can

you talk about a little bit about that?

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Angela Scott: So Chimp Party was, um,

a company that would, I can almost

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remember parts of the voicemail, if

you called to get, um, to schedule an

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event, it was, according to Mike, an

opportunity for people to get up close

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and personal with an endangered great ape.

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However, it was more like a clown

at a child's party, but with a

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chimpanzee and that was sort of

the first red flag, um, that I saw.

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The very first and most traumatic

of, of the things that I saw were

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capuchins, um, and chimpanzees being

darted with ketamine and having

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their babies taken away from them

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for the purpose of selling them

as pets or for commercial work.

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DrG: And one of the things that they

mentioned on the show and it's, it is kind

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of like ridiculous that they don't, they

don't hear it for themselves talk is they

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discuss about how the bond between the

baby and the mom is so important, right?

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And from my understanding of, of

monkeys in general and, and, and

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chimps is that they're attached to

the mom for years after they're born.

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That's correct.

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Right?

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And then yet they're saying

the bond between a baby and its

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mother is so important and here

they are just kidnapping these

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babies as soon as they're born

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Angela Scott: And what they usually say

to prospective buyers is that captive

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bred chimpanzees and primates are not

good mothers, that they somehow, years

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of evolution is erased and maternal

instincts are out the window and

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they have no desire to mother their

infant and it's just simply not true.

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In the wild, chimpanzee moms carry their

infants on their stomach for three to

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six months, sometimes up to a year, and

then they ride on their back and are

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not weaned until about four or five.

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So this intimate, close, five year

bond, a human being cannot replicate.

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It's, it, human beings, really can't

facilitate the emotional, psychological

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or physical needs of a chimpanzee.

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They grow up, they reach sexual maturity.

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They start the puberty

at around six or seven.

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Um, just like human beings, they have

this rollercoaster of emotions and they

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become frustrated and rebellious and

irritable and the females have mood

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swings just like a girl would when she

would, you know, start having her cycle.

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It's very comparable to what human

beings experience during those years.

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And a lot of people have absolutely

no knowledge of what it takes to

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actually have a chimpanzee or a monkey.

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and have no desire to learn and

it almost always ends in tragedy.

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I don't think it's a coincidence that

both Travis and his mom Susie escaped

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their enclosures and were shot to death.

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I don't think that that's a coincidence.

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DrG: Yeah, I think that it is something

that people don't realize that the

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majority of the chimpanzees that we

see on TV, the chimps that people see

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and say, "Oh, I want one", they're

actually really, really young, yet

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they live a really long life, right?

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Angela Scott: Up to 50

to 60 years in captivity.

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DrG: So we're seeing these, so we're

seeing these, these chimps that are only

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like three to five years, so they're still

manageable, and they're still basically

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children, and then once they've become

adults, then everything changes, right?

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Angela Scott: Everything changes, and they

have the cognitive ability of a toddler.

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Their IQs are between 20 and 25, but

it can be as high as 50, and just

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like individuals, you have smarter

people, you have smarter chimps.

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It just depends.

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Um, the problem is, is that you have

a toddler that can lift 500 pounds

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and throw a refrigerator at you if

they get upset, and a lot of people

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aren't prepared for that and part of

that is because that's not a sales

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pitch that you would give to somebody

when you're trying to sell a chimp.

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A baby chimp,

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the going rate, the last I recall was 60,

000 for a male and 65, 000 for a female.

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And it's important to note that Connie,

uh, and Mike, we're the most prolific

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pet exotic chimpanzee breeders in,

in this country and are responsible

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for more than three quarters of

the population of pet chimpanzees.

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Put that into perspective.

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That's, that's, I mean,

easily over a hundred.

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And the thing is, is that for me, the

only way that I could compare it is.

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These chimp moms, it would be like

putting a woman in a jail cell for

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not committing a crime, forcing her

to have children every other year,

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tranquilizing her, taking her child

from her over and over and over again.

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What would your psychological profile

look like if that, something that

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traumatic had happened to you?

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And this is what happens to

them over and over and over.

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And it's completely preventable.

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And it's very unfortunate that people

don't really know the psychological

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impact that it has on the animal.

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It's, it's, they go through depression,

they scream, they look for their

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children, they actually try to hide

their babies so that they won't get

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darted down and have their baby removed.

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They don't eat, they pull out their

hair, um, self injurious behaviors.

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And the other thing is almost every

captive pet chimpanzee that I've seen,

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and I'm sure there are exceptions,

have these atypical behaviors.

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Um, that wild chimpanzees don't have

and it's the incessant rocking or making

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noises with their mouth or self harm.

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They injure themselves out of boredom,

frustration, stress, sadness, depression,

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all of these things that, that we

experienced, they experience too.

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It's just that they're

not considered people.

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They're disposable.

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Like you said, it's It's

very, very, very sad.

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DrG: Yeah, you always hear about people

that say that they want a monkey.

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They'll say, "no, I'm going to get it

when it's really, really young so that

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then that way it can attach to me".

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And they're not taking into

consideration the harm that they're

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causing to that baby, to the mom.

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The fact that, you know, It doesn't matter

how much sign language we can teach them,

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we can not communicate with them the way

that they communicate with each other.

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So when they start having those problems,

when they go into maturity, they don't

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have, uh, somebody of the same species

to kind of guide them and lead them

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through those changes that they're going

and realistically they get into a fight.

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It's a lot different than if we were

to get into a fight with them, as

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we have seen some serious injuries.

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Angela Scott: And a lot of people

aren't thinking, you know, they think

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chimps are vicious and it's in the wild,

chimpanzee attacks, I mean, they, they

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go for areas that are highly vulnerable

where they can inflict the most damage

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and that are highly, um, accessible.

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So usually fingers and hands and

face and, but this is something

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that happens in the wild.

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And it's important to note that the

vocalizations that they have, the

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communication that they have is,

a lot of people don't understand.

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I mean, we're human beings.

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We don't know.

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For example, most people

smile at chimpanzees.

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You're never supposed to show your

teeth that's considered intimidation.

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It's, um, it's a threat.

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It's actually a threat , and people

think that chimpanzees who are forced

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to smile, that they're smiling.

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I mean, in human behavior,

a smile is welcoming.

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It's a sign of happiness.

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In chimps, it's a fear grimace, and

it's a sign of stress and, and fear.

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Uh, it's, it's just very

different, and a lot of people,

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they don't even want to learn.

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They just want to raise it

like it's a human child, and,

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and, and that's what they do.

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DrG: During the parties that they

were having, from what I understand

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from watching the documentary,

it looks like everything went

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okay until it didn't, right?

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Like what, what stopped

these parties from happening?

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Angela Scott: Well, I think part of it was

the law, um, and the increase, the influx

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of attacks on humans from chimpanzees.

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Susie, Travis's mom, uh, escaped

with two other chimpanzees.

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She was an alpha female, and they

got onto a neighbor's property, and

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unfortunately, uh, they were tranquilized.

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Coco and Gabby were able

to get back on the truck.

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Unfortunately, Susie just

didn't go down, um, quickly.

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And she was, had her back turned.

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She was on the edge of the road.

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She was playing with grass.

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And, there was the guy that

owned the house, shot her in the

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back with a shotgun and then she

turned around and looked at him.

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She was, had this confused look

because she wasn't afraid of

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people and he shot her in the face.

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And, um, I mean, it was

absolutely horrible.

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And those are the things that happen.

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And I think that's part of the

reason that, that it stopped.

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And, um, You know, chimpanzees didn't

have such a great reputation, um, after

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that, and the infamous attack with

Travis, of course, was viral, and I

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think, um, unfortunately, I think it

had to take something so tragic, um,

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for everyone involved to sort of get the

attention that it needed, and Mike also

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left, um, Connie and Mike got a divorce

and things changed a lot for Connie.

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So I think that was part of it too.

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And, um, she decided to go

nonprofit and get a 501c3, and so

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chimp party was just no longer.

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DrG: So on the on the documentary,

when we're looking at pictures or

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video of Mike Casey, right, who

is was the husband and part owner,

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his face is somewhat distorted.

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And that was caused by one of the chimps.

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Is that right?

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Angela Scott: That's correct.

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Bo was the first infant born,

um, at Connie's facility.

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The father was Coco and

the mother was Bridget.

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And Connie raised Bo like a

child, just like Travis was.

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Um, he slept in her bed.

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She had a babysitter for him

for when she went to work.

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And when Mike came onto the scene, the

closest thing that I can, um, compare

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it to would be like having a stepfather.

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And Everything changed for him.

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He was in a cage.

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He didn't have access to Connie.

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Um, he wasn't out anymore, and I think

that, um, all that frustration sort

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of mounted, and he was very abusive

to Connie and very abusive to Bo, and

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it culminated in a, an attack, and Mike

went into his cage, which he admittedly

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said he shouldn't have done, um, with

an ice cream cone, and chimpanzees are

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opportunistic and they don't forget.

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They don't forget trauma , as much as

we'd like to think they do and he had

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an opportunity to do what he, I feel

like he had wanted to do for a long

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time and so he bit Mike's nose off and

then just went back to doing whatever he

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was doing and Mike had to have several

surgeries and skin grafts and skin

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taken from his forehead onto his nose.

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I mean, um, his face was

disfigured after that.

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DrG: And yet knowing personally the

trauma that they can cause, even

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when you raise them, then they still

continue to have them reproduce and

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sell them to other people and just not

inform them about the dangers of them.

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Angela Scott: That's correct.

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Sandra wasn't informed about

what Travis was capable of, what

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all chimpanzees are capable of.

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They do not belong as pets.

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They don't belong raised

in human families.

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They, uh, you can take a chimpanzee

out of the wild, but you can't

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take the wild out of a chimpanzee.

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This is, I mean, it's innate.

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It's, it's their instincts.

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I mean, they become sexually

frustrated, emotionally frustrated,

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psychologically frustrated.

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They're deprived of so many things

that are natural to them and that

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humans just can't facilitate.

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There's just no other way to say it.

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And as a result, I mean, Almost any

chimpanzee that is a pet is, is gonna,

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their life is going to end in some

sort of tragedy, whether it's in a

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cage for the rest of their lives or,

um, they end up attacking somebody.

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It's, it's almost inevitable.

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They're so strong.

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The average chimpanzee has the

combined strength of five adult men.

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Five adult men.

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Um, the chimps at Missouri Primate

Foundation were actually, um,

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housed with actual jail bars that

were donated to the facility.

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DrG: So we have been discussing

mentioning the network named Travis,

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and I think that many, many of our

audience may kind of know about the

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story, but I don't think that they would

know the actual what actually happened.

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So do you want to discuss about that?

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The, you know, who Travis was and

kind of what led to the final incident

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that ended up with Travis's death.

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Brittany Peet: The moment in

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was not the first time that Travis

escaped from the Herold's home.

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He first escaped a few years

before Out of the truck where

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he was often driven around.

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Um, he got out, he approached a number

of people, tried to get into other cars.

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The police had the whole area where

this was occurring surrounded.

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Um, and, and Travis did eventually

get back into the vehicle.

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He buckled himself back in, and

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authorities for the most part treated

it like it was a joke, like it

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was something funny that happened

instead of it being a major red flag.

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Um, that said the law did change in, in

Connecticut after that incident occurred

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and there was a requirement that you

needed to have a permit, um, if you owned

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a primate who was, I think, 45 pounds

or, or higher, which Travis, of course,

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would have been, but then they didn't

enforce that law against the Herolds.

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And that's one of the things that we

see over and over in these, situations,

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um, with chimpanzees who are held as

pets or even in situations like what

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occurred at Missouri Primate Foundation.

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Even though the laws that we have on the

books in the United States for animals

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are archaic and they desperately need to

be updated, Even the laws that we have

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on the books now aren't being enforced

against animal abusers, neglecters,

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and exploiters, and if they were, it

would be a really different world for

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animals in the United States today.

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Travis wouldn't have died, um, and the

chimpanzees at the Missouri Primate

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Foundation wouldn't have been tormented

and exploited for as long as they were.

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DrG: Can you tell us what it was

that, that happened that day,

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the day that Travis got killed?

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Brittany Peet: So what happened the day

that, that Travis was killed, um, Sandra

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Herold was preparing to go out and she

was trying to get Travis situated and

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he was agitated, um, and she apparently

put, um, I think it was, uh, Xanax.

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into a drink and and gave that to Travis.

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Um, and people underestimate just

how intelligent these animals are.

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He was able to to grab Sandra Herold's

keys and unlock the door and go outside.

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So at that point, um, Sandra

called her friend, um, Chandra

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Nash and asked if she could come

over and help her to corral Travis.

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Um, Chandra had been a person, um, who,

um, had known Travis for a long time.

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She'd baby, babysat for him before.

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Um, and so she came over and people

make a, a lot out of this Elmo

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doll that, that she apparently had.

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Um, she apparently got out of

her car and put this Elmo stuffed

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animal that she had brought over

for Travis in front of her face.

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Um, and you know, whether that triggered

anything or not, we will never know.

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Um, but at that point, Travis

rushed at her and attacked her.

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Sandra attempted to, or she did stab

Travis a number of times in the back.

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She struck him with a snow

shovel multiple times.

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Um, but none of that deterred him.

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He, attacked her hands.

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and tore them off.

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He tore off her face, and apparently

started eating it as well.

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Sandra called 911.

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Um, and first responders showed up.

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At that point, it seems that

Travis had, had stopped the attack.

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Um, and he went to approach a police car.

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Uh, he shook the car He

opened the car door and that's

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when he was shot by police.

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He didn't die instantly.

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He ran back inside, um, into his room,

which was, the cage where he was held

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for, for most of the, the end of his life.

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Um, and that's where he died.

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And there are crime scene photos

that show the details of the attack.

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There's the knife,

there's the snow shovel.

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You can see chunks of hair and scalp

that he ripped from Chandran Nash's

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head, And you can also see Travis's body

slumped over and, and dead in that, in

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that room where he was caged for so long.

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And there was the, the police officer

who, who shot him, um, suffered a lot

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because of what he went through also.

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Um, he had to go through a lot

of counseling, um, and, and had a

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really hard time with, with what

happened, and it's understandable.

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And that's one of the reasons that

that PETA is pushing for the Captive

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Primate Safety Act to pass, and that's

bipartisan federal legislation that

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would prohibit the private ownership

of primates and the private breeding

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and commercial trade in primates.

351

:

And in addition to the obvious welfare

issues that this bill would accomplish,

352

:

keeping primates in private homes is

also a massive public safety issue.

353

:

Um, and, and it's a huge

issue for first responders.

354

:

I mean, think about being a first

responder and being called out to an

355

:

emergency, not knowing what you're walking

into opening a door and finding a 200

356

:

pound chimpanzee staring back at you.

357

:

And that's the reality

for first responders.

358

:

Um, and that was one of the reasons

that the big cat public safety act

359

:

passed because there were a number

of incidents where first responders

360

:

went into homes and found lions

and tigers there and and that's not

361

:

something that that these people

should have to face when when they're

362

:

just trying to confront emergencies.

363

:

DrG: So outside of the captive

primate safety act is there are

364

:

there any other laws that prohibit

uh primates are there like more

365

:

like state regulations or is there

really nothing significant right now?

366

:

Brittany Peet: There's, there's a

patchwork of laws and regulations across

367

:

the United States, um, that really

varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

368

:

And that's another reason why we need this

uniform prohibition against the private

369

:

ownership of primates across the country.

370

:

Um, because it is so

different from place to place.

371

:

And a lot of states don't have

any restrictions on what you

372

:

can and can't do with primates.

373

:

In Missouri, for example, um, it's

perfectly legal to own a chimpanzee

374

:

or a bear and a tiger and to keep them

in your backyard or in your basement.

375

:

And I think that's one of the real

utilities of these popular shows like

376

:

Tiger King and Chimp Crazy is showing

people just how dangerous these animals

377

:

are, but maybe even more how dangerous

these exotic animal hobbyists are.

378

:

Um, because they don't

care about public safety.

379

:

They don't care about animal welfare.

380

:

All that they care about is bumping

up their ego by owning these

381

:

magnificent animals who should never

be in cages in the first place.

382

:

DrG: Yeah, because after Travis's

attack, nobody really faced

383

:

any liability for it, right?

384

:

Brittany Peet: They, they didn't.

385

:

Nobody faced liability

after, after Travis's attack.

386

:

And, and we see in Chimp Crazy, uh, a

press conference where officials say

387

:

that, that no charges will be pursued

because Sandra Herold didn't know about

388

:

the danger that, that Travis posed.

389

:

And of course that's, that isn't true.

390

:

Um, we, we heard in that

series that, um, that Sandra

391

:

herself was covered in bruises.

392

:

Um, and obviously we know that there

was the, the previous incident.

393

:

And we know from public records that

there were, um, that there were folks

394

:

in local law enforcement who had raised

red flags and, and blown the whistle

395

:

and tried to convince Sandra, um,

to surrender Travis to a sanctuary.

396

:

Um, but she just wouldn't do it, and

there's, there's speculation that one

397

:

of the reasons that authorities chose

not to pursue charges against Sandra

398

:

is because they were worried about

their own liability because of what

399

:

they had let happen, um, as a result

of failing to enforce the law and

400

:

letting the situation get completely

out of hand to the extent that it did.

401

:

DrG: So going back to Connie's facility,

so she had, she was breeding them for

402

:

sale and then she became a non profit.

403

:

When is it that she, that the, that

she became a non profit, that it

404

:

became the Missouri Primate Foundation?

405

:

Brittany Peet: Based on USDA reports,

it looks like, um, the shift from Chimp

406

:

Party to Missouri Primate Foundation

occurred between:

407

:

Angela Scott: It's important to

note though that nothing changed

408

:

after she went non profit.

409

:

Um,

410

:

DrG: how many chimps did

she have in captivity there?

411

:

Angela Scott: So when the first time,

en I first went there, um, in:

412

:

believe it was, there were 32 chimpanzees.

413

:

But according to Tonia, um,

I heard her say that, that

414

:

at one time she had over 40.

415

:

And by my, uh, guesstimation, uh,

they're responsible for breeding

416

:

more than a hundred babies.

417

:

I mean, a hundred, a hundred.

418

:

That's a, that's a whole

social group, um, in Africa.

419

:

That's one of the largest

groups, um, in the wild.

420

:

And that's considered very, very big.

421

:

And again, like Brittany said, Mike was

very arrogant, very egotistical, and,

422

:

um, You know, I said, you know, to the

degree that Connie could love, I believe

423

:

that she thought that she loved them.

424

:

But, you know, the money that she was

getting for selling that, that, there's

425

:

no way that that wasn't a part of it.

426

:

It's, it's just not.

427

:

And the reason I said she and I have

a different definition of love is

428

:

because I don't know how you love

something and then dart it and take its

429

:

baby and, and then hold the baby and

cradle the baby and feed the baby while

430

:

the mother is downstairs screaming.

431

:

Mike actually thought there was something

wrong with me because I didn't don't,

432

:

I, I didn't like to hold the infants and

it wasn't because I, um, didn't think

433

:

they were adorable or, um, you know,

want to, it was because I felt guilty

434

:

because I was the one going downstairs

and taking care of them after their baby

435

:

had been taken and I was the one who

saw the psychological stress and the

436

:

emotional bankruptcy, you know, in

their eyes, it was, you know, chimps

437

:

don't have vocal cords, but emotion,

um, sadness transcends language.

438

:

You know, you could see just

the emptiness and the sadness.

439

:

And, um, I don't know if you were going

to bring this up or not, but Connor,

440

:

um, was used for Hallmark cards and Mike

441

:

took him out when he was eight on

his last shoot, which is very old

442

:

to take a chimpanzee out because

of the risks that they impose to

443

:

the public and to their handler.

444

:

And, after eight hours of changing into

tuxedos or whatever clothes, different

445

:

costumes they wanted to put on him.

446

:

He started to exhibit

signs of irritability.

447

:

He stopped listening to cues and,

uh, was just downright refusing

448

:

to change into more clothes.

449

:

And Mike tried to force him

and, um, he had a meltdown.

450

:

Um, it was just, um, luck that he

didn't do to anybody what Travis did

451

:

to Miss Nash, because he did bite Mike.

452

:

And people had to hide under tables

and desks, and he had to use a light,

453

:

um, pole to sort of get him back into

his cage and, um, and calm him down.

454

:

And I, I also think that chimpanzees,

when they're in this display is what

455

:

it's called, um, at least for males,

when they're, um, attacking or, um,

456

:

It's almost like they black out.

457

:

I mean, all the adrenaline

that's going through their body.

458

:

They just, um, they actually lose control.

459

:

I mean, it's, um, watching a male

chimpanzee display is very intimidating.

460

:

I mean, they throw things, they kick,

they punch, they make, you know, noises.

461

:

And, and that's the whole idea is to

intimidate and that's what they do.

462

:

And, um, and it's just very fortunate

that Mike was able to get him back into

463

:

his cage before he did anything that was

more, any more damage than what he did.

464

:

But Mike did suffer, um, a pretty

bad bite to the leg as a result.

465

:

DrG: So, Brittany, you

brought up the USDA.

466

:

And from what I understand, that was

kind of like the initial argument against

467

:

the facility was USDA violations, right?

468

:

So can you explain to the audience how

the USDA regulates these facilities?

469

:

And then what was it that led you guys

to to require that they make changes?

470

:

Brittany Peet: So the U.

471

:

S.

472

:

Department of Agriculture enforces a

federal law called the Animal Welfare

473

:

Act, and the, the Animal Welfare

Act, um, regulates, among other

474

:

animal facilities, um, facilities

that sell or exhibit Exotic animals.

475

:

So a facility like Missouri Primate

Foundation, their activities, taking

476

:

chimpanzees to parties, using them

in movies and ads and greeting

477

:

cards, and selling them to the

public, that's activity that requires

478

:

an Animal Welfare Act license.

479

:

And so PETA was able to, to

document a number of Animal Welfare

480

:

Act violations at the facility

through eyewitness investigations.

481

:

And we were, we submitted

complaints to the USDA based on

482

:

those eyewitness investigations.

483

:

And the USDA did end up citing the

Missouri Primate Foundation for a number

484

:

of deficiencies, including excessive

feces and urine buildup in enclosures.

485

:

One of the inspection reports noted

that the, the buildup and stench of

486

:

urine in one area of the facility

was so severe that it irritated the

487

:

inspectors nasal passages, um, and she

was just in there for a few moments.

488

:

And, you know, so you have to think

about the fact that the chimpanzees

489

:

are living in that environment

24 seven, having to suffer in

490

:

that those disgusting,

horrific conditions.

491

:

Um, there were cockroach infestations,

animals were documented having

492

:

sparse hair coats and pulling

out their own fur as a result of

493

:

profound psychological frustration.

494

:

Unfortunately, The U.

495

:

S.

496

:

Department of Agriculture is notorious

for failing to adequately enforce the

497

:

Animal Welfare Act, so while those

citations documenting violations are

498

:

helpful, there are actually no penalties

that go along with just violations

499

:

listed on an inspection report.

500

:

You don't, your license isn't

suspended, you're not subject to a fine.

501

:

Nothing.

502

:

Um, and the USDA, other than, um,

issuing an official warning and what's

503

:

called a letter of information to the

Missouri Primate Foundation, again,

504

:

which is an escalation, but that

doesn't have any penalty attached to it.

505

:

You know, so if you're not penalizing

these facilities that don't care about

506

:

animal welfare, then you're not doing

anything to incentivize them to comply.

507

:

And so that's where the

Endangered Species Act comes in.

508

:

And up until 2015, captive chimpanzees in

the United States were not subject to the

509

:

protections of the Endangered Species Act.

510

:

So even though chimpanzees were

listed as endangered, it was only

511

:

chimpanzees in the wild who were

subject to those protections.

512

:

But thanks to work by organizations,

including the Jane Goodall Institute,

513

:

um, in 25, in 2015, that changed.

514

:

And captive chimpanzees were then,

um, subject to the ESA's protections.

515

:

And so those include, um,

restrictions on commercial activity.

516

:

Um, so you can't buy or sell

a chimpanzee unless you have a

517

:

permit from the federal government.

518

:

Um, and people like Connie Casey

or Sandra Herold, um, who are.

519

:

just buying and selling these animals

for profit or as pets wouldn't

520

:

be eligible for those permits.

521

:

And then there's also something called

a take under the Endangered Species

522

:

Act and that prohibits doing things to

chimpanzees like killing them, maiming

523

:

them, or subjecting them to physical,

psychological, or social injuries.

524

:

And So as soon as that the captive

chimpanzee, um, split listing loophole

525

:

was closed, PETA started working on

filing ESA cases on behalf of chimpanzees.

526

:

And the first case that we filed was

actually on behalf of Tonka's brother.

527

:

A chimpanzee named Joe, who was

held in solitary confinement in a

528

:

roadside zoo in Mobile, Alabama.

529

:

Um, and we were able to win his,

uh, his transfer to sanctuary.

530

:

He lives at Save the Chimps today.

531

:

Um, and And then we worked on Missouri

Primate Foundation, and this isn't

532

:

mentioned in the show, but PETA

worked for years to try to come to a

533

:

resolution with Connie Casey before we

resorted to filing this federal action.

534

:

We actually tried to buy

her out before the captive

535

:

chimpanzee split listing closed.

536

:

I'm not going to give the figure,

but we offered her a massive

537

:

amount of money that would have

allowed her to retire comfortably.

538

:

If she would agree to allow the animals

to be retired to sanctuaries and agreed to

539

:

never own or possess exotic animals again.

540

:

She refused,

541

:

and so we had no choice but to

file a lawsuit against her under

542

:

the Endangered Species Act.

543

:

DrG: And at the beginning, it wasn't

about taking them away, right?

544

:

Like you just wanted her to

make things right for them.

545

:

Brittany Peet: Well, we were, we were

willing to give her that opportunity.

546

:

Um, I don't think any of us had any

confidence that she had any intention

547

:

of, of changing or improving conditions.

548

:

I think to her, what she

was doing was just fine.

549

:

I don't think that she thought that

the chimpanzees needed anything other

550

:

than to be locked up behind prison bars

because that's how she'd always done it.

551

:

And that's an attitude that we see from

a lot of exotic, exotic animal owners.

552

:

"This is how we've always done it,

553

:

so it's fine".

554

:

Ignoring the fact that that animal

welfare science has advanced

555

:

tremendously in the past decade alone.

556

:

What we know about captive wild animals

and what they need for even minimal

557

:

welfare when they're held in captivity

in the United States and, um, yeah.

558

:

And it, and it, and it turned

out that, that she didn't improve

559

:

conditions for the animals.

560

:

She just turned over ownership

of them to, uh, a shady exotic

561

:

animal broker named Tonia Haddix.

562

:

DrG: It, it feels a lot

like a puppy mill, right?

563

:

Like where there are regulations

that are supposed to manage them

564

:

and tell them how to run things.

565

:

But then there are all these violations

that happen over and over and over.

566

:

And ultimately things don't really

change because it's about the money.

567

:

It's not necessarily about the animals.

568

:

And there's a little bit of that of that

rescue hoarding going on as well, because

569

:

it's that I'm the only one that can take

care of these animals, which it sounds

570

:

like that's the Tonia Haddix mentality.

571

:

Like, I feel, I feel about Connie as

more of an exploiter hoarder because

572

:

of the business of it, but this Tonia

lady just seems like she, she truly

573

:

is in that mental state that she is so

blinded to what she's doing that she

574

:

thinks that she's doing something right.

575

:

Angela Scott: And I mean, the

definition of broker is using

576

:

an animal as a commodity, right?

577

:

I mean, that's, that's

exactly what they're doing.

578

:

And, um, I, I completely agree.

579

:

And, you know, I was one person

taking care of 32 chimpanzees

580

:

and I was a volunteer.

581

:

I worked at Walmart.

582

:

I didn't get paid for my work there.

583

:

And there were dead flies

in their water buckets.

584

:

Um, there was no fail safe.

585

:

If, you know, no secondary plan.

586

:

If a chimp did escape, you know,

no chimps did escape on my watch,

587

:

but, um, they did on Connie's and

it happened more than one time.

588

:

And there were other incidents

before Susie's death.

589

:

Um, and that's the thing.

590

:

It's not like they're kept in these

um, wonderful, wonderful places.

591

:

I mean, these are deplorable conditions,

not fit for, for any, for anyone.

592

:

The food was moldy.

593

:

It was donated.

594

:

Um, I used to drive and pick

it up from, from bread shops.

595

:

Then Connie was using her social

security to provide for them.

596

:

And you're exactly right.

597

:

She did not think that she

was doing anything wrong.

598

:

And Tonia even said, um, you know,

PETA didn't come see the quality

599

:

of life that these animals have,

600

:

or the bond that they have

with their, with their owners.

601

:

And, um, it's, it's, it's just not true.

602

:

It's not true.

603

:

And, you know, PETA worked for years.

604

:

I mean, it was time consuming.

605

:

It was expensive and I will forever be

in debt for, for what they did, but it

606

:

was, it was, and it was not easy and.

607

:

Um, I'm just so grateful that we were able

to, to get the chimps out that we could.

608

:

DrG: So how did you become

part of the investigation?

609

:

Like what, what drove you to, to

join PETA and help them collect

610

:

the evidence that they needed

to, to be able to move forward?

611

:

Angela Scott: What I wanted from

the day that I walked in there

612

:

and that was for them to have

some semblance of a natural life.

613

:

And my mom's been a member of PETA for

a long time and I will never forget

614

:

the phone call that I got from her.

615

:

And it was.

616

:

Um, Angela, um, I got, there

was a newsletter, uh, and Peetr

617

:

was talking about how they're

going after Connie or chimps.

618

:

And the very first thought

I had was I want to help.

619

:

So I reached out and I contacted

Brittany and we had a meeting.

620

:

And, um, they said that they had been

trying for a long time to get somebody

621

:

in there so that they could get the

evidence that they needed to prove that

622

:

the conditions were deplorable and what

was happening in there was, was wrong.

623

:

Um, and I knew that I could go in and I

called Connie and I asked if I could come

624

:

visit the chimps and, I went in there

and I recorded my visit and I got as much

625

:

evidence as I possibly could to support

the lawsuit, um, and I, I became, um,

626

:

I think a co plaintiff on PETA's behalf

to, against Connie to get the chimps out

627

:

and, uh, and that was, that was my goal

was, uh, Um, and always was my goal.

628

:

I mean, I said it on the show.

629

:

There were so many times when I, when

I told those chimps, you know, one day

630

:

I'm going to get you out of here one

day, I'm going to get you out of here.

631

:

And I said that for a long time and

I meant it with my heart, but, um, I

632

:

was well aware when I went in, um, to

record that, once the footage broke

633

:

and Connie knew what I had done,

that if Peeta and I didn't win, that

634

:

I would never see those chimpanzees

again, but it was worth it to me.

635

:

And I think that there's a stigma attached

to whistleblowers, you know, it's, you're

636

:

a snitch, you're this, you're that.

637

:

I stand by what I did and I would do

it again and watching them suffer,

638

:

and the memories that I have of the

traumatic events that took place there.

639

:

It was, um, such a relief when

they called me and they said,

640

:

you know, we're here to seize the

chimps, Angela, you know, we did it.

641

:

We got them.

642

:

That was an amazing feeling.

643

:

DrG: I think a lot of people don't

understand that, you know, because

644

:

clearly the animals cannot sue on

behalf of themselves because they,

645

:

they have no, no statute in law.

646

:

But organizations like PETA can do it.

647

:

So, Brittany, can you explain

how, how that process works?

648

:

Brittany Peet: Yes, so one of the unique

things about the Endangered Species Act

649

:

that isn't a part of, of other laws that,

that are supposed to protect animals, like

650

:

the Animal Welfare Act, for example, is

that there's what's called a citizen suit

651

:

provision that does allow individuals and

entities to sue on behalf of, of animals.

652

:

Um, there is still a legal standing

requirement, and so you, you have

653

:

to be able to prove, um, that you

were subject to a unique injury

654

:

as a result of the defendant.

655

:

So in this case, Connie Casey, their

conduct, and, you have to show that

656

:

the harm that you're alleging

will be redressed by a lawsuit.

657

:

Um, you know, and so obviously in our

case, the, the redress of that harm

658

:

would be improvement in the conditions

for the chimpanzees or their removal

659

:

to a facility that, that was able to

provide them with, with those conditions.

660

:

And so that's ultimately, um, the

relief that we were granted as a result.

661

:

of the lawsuit.

662

:

Um, unfortunately, some recent decisions

by the United States Supreme Court make

663

:

that standing those types of standing

arguments a little bit more difficult.

664

:

Um, and so it may be more challenging for

us to bring these lawsuits in the future.

665

:

Uh, and so that's another reason why

the Captive Primate Safety Act is so

666

:

important and why it's so important

for federal agencies like the U.

667

:

S.

668

:

Department of Agriculture and the U.

669

:

S.

670

:

Fish and Wildlife Service, which has

jurisdiction to enforce the Endangered

671

:

Species Act, um, but almost never

does on behalf of captive wildlife.

672

:

It's critically important for them to

step up and to finally do their jobs so

673

:

that PETA doesn't have to do it for them.

674

:

DrG: So once they did not do what they

needed to do and then you decided to

675

:

follow through, then finally you were

granted Well, actually, let me, let me

676

:

back up because part of the, of what

complicated things was that then Connie

677

:

decided to grant ownership of the chimps

to this other person, Tonia Haddix.

678

:

So can you explain who she was and.

679

:

and basically why, why

they made that move.

680

:

Brittany Peet: Tonia Haddix is an exotic

animal broker, which is essentially

681

:

just a person who sells exotic animals

to whoever is willing to pay for them.

682

:

Um, she specializes in infant primates of

all species, but also sells animals like

683

:

sloths and otters and foxes and kangaroos.

684

:

So she and Connie cooked up a scheme,

um, to try to moot the lawsuit by

685

:

Connie transferring ownership of

the chimpanzees to Tonia Haddix.

686

:

Um, the thought was, since Tonia

Haddix, isn't a party to the lawsuit,

687

:

um, if Connie Casey no longer

owned the Chimpanzees, then PETA

688

:

would have no claim against her.

689

:

But that scheme didn't work out.

690

:

Um, it was very short sighted because

all we really had to do and what

691

:

we did do was add Tonia Haddix as

a defendant to the lawsuit, um,

692

:

and, and she didn't like that.

693

:

And, and she was obstructionist from

the beginning, being argumentative and

694

:

not wanting to, to comply with the, the

court, the court's orders in the case.

695

:

DrG: And Tonia was the original owner

of the famous chimp Tonka, right?

696

:

Brittany Peet: No, she wasn't.

697

:

No.

698

:

Tonka was one of the chimpanzees that,

um, that she was, that, that Connie Casey

699

:

conveyed to her, um, at the end of 2017.

700

:

DrG: Okay.

701

:

That's interesting because looking

at everything, it almost makes

702

:

it sound like she raised him from

a baby and that she was his, and

703

:

that was her attachment to him.

704

:

Angela Scott: She's only

known Tonka for a few years.

705

:

Um, what also is just mind

boggling is that PETA was actually

706

:

negotiated a way for her to

keep Tonka and two other chimps.

707

:

She just simply had to, uh, agree

to build a habitat and, um, you

708

:

know, make conditions better.

709

:

And she says in, in the series that

she spent $500,000 on, uh, repairs

710

:

to that facility, but she couldn't,

um, you make the adjustments she

711

:

needed to, to satisfy, um, PETA, which

was significantly less than that.

712

:

And, of course, then she faked his death

and put him through the stress of, um,

713

:

the horrible things that she had to do.

714

:

I don't want to, you know,

ruin it for everybody.

715

:

So, you know, just, it's, it's

just unbelievable that, that

716

:

she really thought that what she

was doing was right for Tonka.

717

:

DrG: People can definitely

watch the documentary and see

718

:

the horrible conditions in

which these animals were kept.

719

:

And, and one of the things that you

see is how she's crying and saying

720

:

about how, how she's so attached

to them and how she loves them.

721

:

So, but all the interaction

is just through cage bars.

722

:

Like, these animals are not really

allowed to express any kind of physical

723

:

care, and you can understand why.

724

:

I mean, I would not want to, I would

not feel comfortable giving one

725

:

of them a hug because I know the,

how powerful they are, but they're

726

:

not allowed to express themselves

in any, in any way, shape or form.

727

:

Angela Scott: And she kept Tonka alone.

728

:

He was alone, alone.

729

:

So separated from his family, you

know, his, his family went to a

730

:

sanctuary and he went to her basement.

731

:

That's literally what happened.

732

:

It was very unfortunate for Tonka.

733

:

DrG: But then thankfully, eventually,

you guys did find out where Tonka was at,

734

:

and then were able to recover him, right?

735

:

How did that whole thing go down?

736

:

Brittany Peet: So, um, folks will see

this in the series, and, and, spoiler

737

:

alert, I don't know when this is, is

coming out, but, um, if you haven't seen

738

:

episodes three and four of the series

yet, um, you may want to forward a

739

:

little bit, um, but We, um, PETA launched

a nationwide search for, for Tonka.

740

:

We visited a number of facilities

where he, where we thought he could be.

741

:

Um, we issued a $10,000 reward for

information, um, leading to his recovery.

742

:

We did Facebook ads and newspaper

ads and we blasted the news

743

:

about that reward everywhere.

744

:

Alan Cumming, who had previously starred

with Tonka in a movie called Buddy in

745

:

the 90s, matched that reward offer.

746

:

And so ultimately there

was a $20,000 reward.

747

:

Oh, and then, um, there was

also, of course, the psychic.

748

:

Um, PETA got a call from a psychic,

and one of her clients, it turned

749

:

out, was friends with Tonia Haddix.

750

:

And Tonia Haddix had confessed to

her that Tonka was still alive.

751

:

And so the psychic came to us and

said, Hey, I, you know, I've heard

752

:

about this situation and I just

want you to know Tonka is alive.

753

:

You know, you all are on the right

track and you're doing the right thing.

754

:

And ultimately we got a call from the

Chimp Crazy producers and they had

755

:

recorded a phone call between Tonia

Haddix and the proxy director, Dwayne

756

:

Cunningham, in which Tonia claimed

that Tonka was in severe congestive

757

:

heart failure, that he was in terrible

condition, he was ailing, and that she

758

:

was planning to have him euthanized at

the time that we heard the recording,

759

:

in two days.

760

:

This was Memorial Day weekend.

761

:

So it was, it was, uh,

uh, a holiday weekend.

762

:

So the courts weren't open.

763

:

Um, but my colleague, Jared went to

meet with the producers in California

764

:

to get a copy of the recording.

765

:

We filed a temporary

restraining order the next day.

766

:

We filed it under seal so Tonia

didn't have any advanced notice of it.

767

:

And we asked the court, um, to enjoin

tonia and her veterinarian, Dr.

768

:

Casey Talbot, from euthanizing Tonka

or from removing him from her home

769

:

until PETA was able to get there with

a qualified chimpanzee veterinarian

770

:

to assess his condition and determine

whether he was fit for transport.

771

:

Um, the federal marshals served that

warrant on Tonka and we found out

772

:

later that morning that he was in fact

alive in her basement and we saw the

773

:

first photos of him, uh, that day.

774

:

DrG: And then you had him checked

out and all of her claims of him

775

:

being sick were just not true, right?

776

:

Brittany Peet: Yes, so we had a highly

experienced chimpanzee veterinarian,

777

:

um, do a comprehensive exam of him

and they were accompanied by Save the

778

:

Chimps veterinarian, and what that

exam found was that he was obese,

779

:

likely because of the fact that

he wasn't able to exercise in

780

:

that tiny cage or because of all

the garbage that Tonia fed him.

781

:

Um, and he had some dental issues

and those are issues that had been

782

:

previously found when Casey Talbot did

a dental exam a couple of years earlier

783

:

, but nothing was ever done about it.

784

:

So he was, he had been suffering

with dental pain for years as well.

785

:

But no, he wasn't in congestive

heart failure at all.

786

:

Um, you know, and, and there is a

suggestion of, of something like

787

:

Munchausen by proxy here, because we also

got a long list of drugs that, that Tonia

788

:

was giving to Tonka during this time.

789

:

And, and he was being given massive

doses of drugs that he didn't need.

790

:

Um, and so, so yes, he probably

was, um, acting as if he wasn't

791

:

well because he was being drugged.

792

:

DrG: So thankfully now, Tonka

and the rest of the animals

793

:

are at Safe the Chimps, right?

794

:

Uh, can, can you tell us about that

organization and, and what makes

795

:

them a true sanctuary compared

to what Connie was trying to run?

796

:

Brittany Peet: So, so far we've

been able to rescue, we rescued

797

:

nine chimpanzees as a result of the

Missouri Primate Foundation case.

798

:

Seven of them are, uh, are at

a sanctuary in Florida called

799

:

the Center for Great Apes.

800

:

Um, the six that we rescued in, um,

that folks saw in that scene in the

801

:

first episode, of Chimp Crazy, um, and

then another chimpanzee named Chloe,

802

:

who we were able to get her to the

Center for Great Apes earlier in the

803

:

litigation as a result of a settlement

agreement between her owner and PETA.

804

:

She was being boarded at Missouri

Primate Foundation, so Connie Casey

805

:

didn't have control over where she went.

806

:

Um, and then Tonka and another

chimpanzee named Allie, um, and she

807

:

was the same situation as Chloe.

808

:

We settled with her owner separately,

they're both at Save the Chimps.

809

:

Unfortunately, um, when we found Tonka

in the summer of:

810

:

for Great Apes no longer had space.

811

:

And so he wasn't able to be placed at

the sanctuary where the rest of his.

812

:

the chimpanzee family that he'd known

at Missouri Primate Foundation was.

813

:

If Tonia hadn't have taken him,

he would be there with them today.

814

:

But thankfully he's doing

amazingly well at Save the Chimps.

815

:

Um, and what's unique about Save

the Chimps and the Center for

816

:

Great Apes, they're accredited by

an organization called the Global

817

:

Federation of Animal Sanctuaries, which

is the gold standard, um, for animal

818

:

care facilities across the world.

819

:

They have extremely high standards of Of

care , and save the chimps and the center

820

:

for great apes both have experienced

veterinarians, behavior staff, massive,

821

:

beautiful facilities, big staffs, and

the ability to provide chimpanzees

822

:

with the extremely high amount of care

that they need, to be able to have

823

:

next to normal lives in in captivity

and just to kind of contrast between

824

:

what Missouri primate foundation,

the level of care that Missouri

825

:

primate foundation provided versus

what a true sanctuary provides.

826

:

As you heard Angela say, Connie was

running Missouri primate foundation

827

:

on her social security check and

donated, um, outdated food, but at a

828

:

true sanctuary, um, it costs $25,000

per year per chimpanzee, um, for care.

829

:

DrG: I always, I always get concerned when

I hear the word sanctuary, right, because

830

:

I just see so many alleged sanctuaries

that are just either basically petting

831

:

zoos or places like hoarding facilities.

832

:

So really important for people listening

to, if you're going to visit or

833

:

donate to one of these organizations,

you need to make sure that they are

834

:

accredited, that they are legit places.

835

:

Realistically, a true sanctuary

is not going to let you come

836

:

in contact with the animals.

837

:

They're not going to let you touch them.

838

:

They're not gonna, you know, bring

them out and have, um, have them have

839

:

play dates and that kind of stuff.

840

:

I recently visited a sanctuary, it was

my first real visit to a sanctuary, in

841

:

Kentucky, and that was one of the things

is we were able to see them from afar.

842

:

Um, and then the second, there were

some, some monkeys that started getting

843

:

really upset about our presence there,

even though we were really far, and

844

:

the, and the person in charge said,

okay, let's just keep moving because

845

:

they're not happy about us being here.

846

:

Like a true sanctuary cares

about the animals, not about,

847

:

you know, not about people coming

in and seeing them like a zoo.

848

:

Angela Scott: Also, a lot of people

don't know this, during the course of our

849

:

lawsuit, uh, Connie transferred, I think

it's six, Kobe, Kirby, Daisy, KK, Carrie

850

:

to, she wasn't allowed to, but she did it

anyway, she transferred them to a roadside

851

:

zoo so that we wouldn't be able to

rescue them, which was very unfortunate.

852

:

And they're still there, unfortunately.

853

:

DrG: Yeah.

854

:

And the way to stop these things is

for people to stop patronizing them.

855

:

Right?

856

:

Like if we stop attending these.

857

:

roadside zoos, these petting

zoos and that kind of stuff.

858

:

If, if there's no, if there's nobody

paying to see them, then they're not

859

:

going to make any money and they're

going to be forced to shut down.

860

:

But hopefully with, with laws like this,

we're going to be able to make it so

861

:

that, that that's not even, and that's

not even something that needs to be done.

862

:

Um, how can people, how can

anybody in our audience.

863

:

help promote this captive

primate safety act.

864

:

Brittany Peet: So, um,

everyone can go to PETA.

865

:

org and there you'll find an easy form

that will take you to your federal

866

:

legislators and you can call on your

federal legislators to co sponsor

867

:

the Captive Primate Safety Act.

868

:

Um, there's also an opportunity for

folks to advocate on behalf of some of

869

:

the chimpanzees in the United States

who still need our help at peta.org.

870

:

Um, and we also encourage

people, as you said, Dr.

871

:

G, don't buy tickets to these places.

872

:

We can shut down this industry tomorrow

if we just stop buying the tickets.

873

:

Um, and let's also work together

to make it as, um, passe on social

874

:

media as it is to wear fur, to post

a photo of yourself at a roadside

875

:

zoo or posing with a wild animal.

876

:

Say something when you see your friends or

family post those things on social media.

877

:

And if you need tips on what

to say, um, you can find a ton

878

:

of information at peta.org.

879

:

DrG: I went to Mexico and there was

a HSI, Humane Society International,

880

:

from Costa Rica, and they were

running this responsible safety.

881

:

Uh, responsible selfie

type, uh, promotion.

882

:

Basically, if you see a wild

animal, don't go touching it.

883

:

Don't get close to it or anything.

884

:

You can take a selfie from afar.

885

:

You're in the picture.

886

:

They're in the picture.

887

:

You're leaving them alone.

888

:

Like there are ways to be present and to

let people know, Hey, I'm here and here's

889

:

this really cool animal without affecting

their their well being in general.

890

:

Angela Scott: You know, it's also I

just saw somebody posted a video with

891

:

a chimp with a puppy and, uh, it's

amazing how we humanize them when they're

892

:

cute and little and dress them up,

893

:

um, and then demonize them when they

act like the wild animal that they are.

894

:

And I still see people saying,

Oh, how cute, how cute, a

895

:

chimp and a puppy, how cute.

896

:

Had something gone wrong, you know, those

wouldn't be the comments that you see.

897

:

So I, I completely agree with

everything that you guys are saying.

898

:

Brittany Peet: And Angela

makes a really good point.

899

:

A trend that we're seeing in

this industry right now, the

900

:

roadside zoo industry is dying.

901

:

We're not seeing an

expansion in that industry.

902

:

What we're seeing is an expansion of

exotic animal influencers on social media.

903

:

Um, you can make a lot more money posting

videos of yourself interacting with a

904

:

tiger cub or a baby chimpanzee on TikTok

than you can operating a roadside zoo.

905

:

Um, so I encourage people, um, to go

through your follows on all of your

906

:

social media accounts and unfollow any

of these exotic animal influencers,

907

:

um, because you don't want to be

supporting, um, the, the cruelty that

908

:

they're inflicting on these animals.

909

:

DrG: This has been a really eye opening

experience as far as to everything

910

:

that was happening behind the scenes,

like everything that was happening

911

:

to these chimps that people don't

understand and the reasons, the true

912

:

reasons not to have these animals.

913

:

Is there anything that we have not

mentioned that you feel that is

914

:

important for our audience to know?

915

:

Brittany Peet: I think that it's important

for people to know that, that they have

916

:

an important role to play in this too,

as we talked about, they don't just have

917

:

to sit back, um, and hope that, that

PETA will continue to step in and that

918

:

more Angelas will step in and step up.

919

:

Um, but if you know something,

reach out to, to PETA.

920

:

If you have a friend or you work at

one of these facilities, or if you

921

:

have information or evidence, we want

to hear from you, um, and, and I think

922

:

that, you know, Angela's experience

can speak to what an amazing outcome

923

:

you can have if, if you just speak up.

924

:

It was an incredibly brave

thing that, that Angela did.

925

:

Um, but she saved nine lives and,

um, there's nothing better than that.

926

:

Angela Scott: Yeah, there really isn't.

927

:

And I just too, I, I want to say that

if you see something, say something,

928

:

because there was a long time where I

thought, you know, there wouldn't be

929

:

anything that I could do, but really.

930

:

It takes you.

931

:

I mean, we have to become part of the

solution and not part of the problem.

932

:

And if you just look away, um, and

you don't actively do something,

933

:

then, then nothing changes.

934

:

Nothing changes.

935

:

Nothing changes.

936

:

I mean, it really does take

people to step up and speak up.

937

:

And sometimes, you know, you think that

you stand alone, but there really are

938

:

people out there who will support you.

939

:

Um, and PETA was, was great.

940

:

Um, and it's a wonderful organization.

941

:

And like I said, you know, you

and Jared are absolute legends

942

:

and you guys were amazing.

943

:

And I'm so grateful to you guys.

944

:

I'm so grateful on behalf

of the chimpanzees.

945

:

I really am.

946

:

And thank you, Dr.

947

:

G.

948

:

I really appreciate you having me on.

949

:

DrG: Thank you both very

much for being here.

950

:

I am hoping that, you know, again,

that we have maybe made people

951

:

think twice or reinforced people

that knew that this was not okay.

952

:

Reinforce why it's not that

maybe more individuals are going

953

:

to step up and do something.

954

:

We've given them resources, so visit PETA.

955

:

org so that you can find out what

can be done, what, how you can help.

956

:

Um, you can help by sharing, rating,

uh, spreading the word with this

957

:

episode so that more people are aware.

958

:

And check out the documentary,

Chimp Crazy, that's on HBO.

959

:

I mean, it, it gives you, uh,

A really impressive look at

960

:

everything that, that went on.

961

:

So, um, thank you again,

both for being here.

962

:

Thank you for your time.

963

:

Thank you for everything that you have

done for the chimps and to everybody

964

:

listening, thank you for listening.

965

:

And thank you for caring.

966

:

Brittany Peet: Thank you so much.

967

:

Bye.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.