Episode 78

full
Published on:

8th May 2025

Animal Forensicon 2025 - Pathology, Bloodstain Analysis, Animal Law and Evidence

The 2025 Animal ForensiCon: The Animal Forensic Investigations Conference is a three-day event, offered in Daytona Beach Shores, Florida from May 7th to 9th, 2025. The conference is hosted by the University of Florida’s Veterinary Forensic Sciences Laboratory.

ForensiCon offers workshops and educational sessions on a wide variety of topics pertaining to criminal investigations, law, small animal investigations, equine and livestock investigations, and wildlife crimes. This conference is open to anyone interested in animal forensic investigations. Attendees will also have the opportunity to network with faculty, experts, and investigators.

Day One: Dr. G interviewed the speakers for the workshops on Forensic Pathology, Bloodstain Pattern Analysis, Animal Law Masterclass, and Evidence Procedures.

Transcript
DrG:

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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I am in Daytona in, well, not so

sunny this week, but Daytona at

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the Animal Forensicon, and here

to tell us more about it is Dr.

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Adam Stern.

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Thank you for being here again.

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Adam Stern: And thank

you for coming again.

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It's great to have you and have you

chat with all the speakers that we

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have at the conference this year.

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DrG: Yeah, it's been,

it's been really good.

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And the way that this year was done

with all of the workshops on the first

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day, it was really nice because people

were able to kind of like, focus on

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different things that they wanted.

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I, I think that that was really amazing.

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Adam Stern: Yeah.

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The, the one, the one goal we wanted

to do this year, not only educate

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in sort of the classroom format.

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Was to give people a new experience.

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And having that hands-on component,

uh, really helped a lot with that.

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We identified some areas where people

probably have no experience whatsoever.

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So for example, like with Bloodstains.

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People read about it, they see

it, but they don't actually

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know what goes into doing it.

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So we try to bring those things into

it as a new way to educate more.

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DrG: Yeah, I think that's great

because that's the reason why I did

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the Forensic Science Masters is because

there's, there's still so much stuff

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in the human field that we don't

know in the veterinary field or that.

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We don't use and we don't realize

that it could be really helpful.

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So things like that were, were really,

even the, the crime scene part,

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um, everything was just fantastic.

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Adam Stern: Yeah, that's really good.

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And we, we were talking with

people in the hallway and

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they're like, that was fantastic.

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And that one was great and I really

wanted to do that one, but I did

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the other one I wanted to do.

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So it's been, it's been really good that

the, the positive feedback has been.

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Great.

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Throughout the whole day so far.

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DrG: Yeah.

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So you had your own workshop, so

can you tell us about your workshop?

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Adam Stern: Yeah, so I did the,

the forensic pathology masterclass.

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And uh, you know, one of the things

that people always ask me is I, I

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wanna learn more about pathology.

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And, you know, in, in vet school and

at different CEEs, we, we sort of

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touch on, oh, here's like the classic.

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Case of X or the classic case of Y.

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And I decided to, you know,

dive into some of these areas.

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But for example, like

Emaciation, we talked about that.

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But, you know, everybody knows what an

emaciated animal looks like, but I try

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to go into a different area, like the

bone marrow analysis, for example, to

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sort of highlight how pathology could be

used, but not just a simple, they have no

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fat, or, you know, they have no disease.

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It's like, give more.

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Um, on the areas where people

might not know a lot about

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that, that one specific topic.

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DrG: Yeah, I think that that's really

important because like some of the

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cases, actually, I had a case relatively

recently where the humane officer that

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came in did not take the dogs because

they were like, well, they kinda looked

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okay, and you can't make that decision

just looking, but you have to touch them.

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But.

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If they don't get that education,

then they're not gonna know.

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Adam Stern: Yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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Just like the pop quizzes I

put, I put up animals and like,

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what's the cause of death?

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And it was a, a raccoon and you

know, I could come up with a hundred

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different things, but until you

look, you're never gonna know.

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And it's, it the same thing throughout.

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Live animals, deceased animals.

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Ask a question, there's a tool that

might be able to give you the answer.

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DrG: And was, was your talk geared,

basically, I mean, it sounds like it

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was geared towards everyone, right?

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Like how, how would it impact?

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Human officers versus veterinarians.

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Adam Stern: Yeah.

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And that, that's the, that's the

hard part, is there's this line

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and it's a squiggly line because

everybody has a, a different level.

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Some are medically trained,

some are investigative trained.

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There's a couple of attorneys in here,

so they're trained in law, so you kind

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of have to sometimes go above, but then

below for, for the different people.

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But in the end, I try to keep

it a straight, average line so

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that everybody can be engaged.

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Knowing full well that even though

the topic might be over their

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head for that part, there are

little tips that they can learn.

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Uh, you know, we did, we talked

about poisoning cases, you know,

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little things that they could do,

like about, more about the scene.

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And they're like, oh,

yeah, I, I do the scene.

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But then when we talk a little bit

about the pathology, they're like,

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oh, I don't know about that, but

let me use a pathologist or, or let

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me consult with my veterinarian.

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So kind of even it out along the way,

it's a hard, it's a hard thing to do, but.

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As we do this more and more,

it kind of becomes easier.

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DrG: I think one of the takeaways

too is that they learn how everybody

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is important as part of the process.

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So it's not about, you

know, it's no one's show.

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It's everybody's teamwork.

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So them seeing, hey, this is what the

vet has to go through and this is what

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the humane agent has to go through,

and this is what the prosecutor

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needs to go through, potentially

can help make a stronger case.

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Adam Stern: Oh, a hundred percent.

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I, I do it as a three-legged stool.

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Okay.

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One is the attorney.

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Okay.

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And the, the, the legal team.

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One is the veterinarian, the veterinary

team, the technician, animal behaviorist,

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anybody really interacting with the animal

from the sort of medical evaluation side.

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And then the investigator, if one of

those parties is disinterested, not there,

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it's a three legged stool, it falls down.

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Can't have that two legged stool.

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So, uh, that's kind of how I

approach all of my trainings is

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you have to include all three.

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But then if you're just dealing

with the veterinary group, like

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you only have veterinarians and

you could just do a deeper dive.

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But a lot of times it's, you

have to consider the entire team.

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Certain team members can

only answer one question.

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In certain cases.

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There's gonna be cases as a

pathologist where I, there's

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no question for me to answer.

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And, and that's okay.

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It's, it's not a one person show.

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It's not a one agency show.

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It's always multiple agencies.

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When we work these cases.

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DrG: So what can we expect

for the, these last two days?

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Adam Stern: So these last two days, we

have, we have a wide variety of people.

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We have someone from the FBI here,

and it's gonna go over some crime

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scene processing from their high

level of, um, federal investigations.

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We have, a couple of laboratory talks.

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We have one on, identifying

individuals based on some,

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anatomical characteristic from

like bones and things like that.

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We have a couple of veterinarians talking

about trauma and the role of the shelter

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vet, and it kind of goes on and on.

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Uh, but we're gonna, again, that

three-legged stool approach, we're gonna

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have a little bit from each one so that

people can learn new skills, new ideas,

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and maybe just to be a refresher for

others who do it day in and day out.

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DrG: Well, that's amazing.

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And I'm looking forward to all of

the talks that are going to happen

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and we'll interview as many of the

speakers as possible so people can,

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can learn what's going on here.

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Adam Stern: Oh yeah.

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Well it's great that you're here

and I'll tell you next year what

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we're gonna invite you back, we

are probably two weeks away from

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announcing where and when it's gonna be.

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Uh, so you'll have to stay tuned for that.

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DrG: Excellent.

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Looking forward to that.

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Well, thank you so much.

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Adam Stern: Thanks for having me.

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DrG: All right, so we're at the

ForensiCon, and I just sat through this

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amazing lecture on blood spatter analysis.

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So can you tell us, well,

let's start with basics.

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What's your name and Where you work?

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Gabriele Suboch: Uh, my name is Dr.

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Gabrielle Suba.

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I retired from the Lee County

Sheriff's Office in southwest Florida.

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DrG: Excellent.

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And, uh, is blood spatter like

the main thing that you do?

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Gabriele Suboch: I did work in crime scene

investigations and then, uh, I specialized

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in bloodstain analysis and for 25 years

I have been interested and researched

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and taught blood spatter analysis.

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DrG: You mentioned there in your

lecture about the show Dexter, and

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that's one of my favorite TV shows.

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Is there any, any truth to that show?

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Is it well-made or is it just

kind of like the CSI effect that

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not everything is quite right.

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Gabriele Suboch: Texture is a good show.

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I like it myself.

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And, uh, some of the, um, the math and

physics here applies in the swinging

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methods to find the area of origin.

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It's kind of correct.

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However, they're showing technology

that's not available right now.

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You know, we don't have virtual

reality at every police station to do.

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The, uh, bloodstain analysis,

but in general, it's based on

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the math and physics of BPA.

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And actually the, um, Toby Wilson,

a friend of mine was the advisor

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for the first DEXA shows when they

did it in Miami, and he was the

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director of the DNA lab in Miami, and

he was also the instructor of BPA.

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DrG: Oh, excellent.

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So they had some really good information

behind the, what they were showing in

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the show to tell realistic as possible.

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Gabriele Suboch: Yeah.

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The first series, you know, when they

were in Miami and, uh, this is where

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actually it was filmed and he helped them

to create the patterns and reconstruct it.

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So there was a lot of,

uh, background that'

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correct.

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DrG: Excellent.

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So what kind of information

can blood spatter tell us?

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Gabriele Suboch: It can tell you

the movement at the scene, like

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the, uh, the way the person is

traveling, the suspect or the victim.

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It also tells you if something

had been removed of the scene.

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If you find the void area, it shows

you there was an item there during

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the blood letting event, but it's not

anymore because you have a wide area.

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So we can learn that.

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We can learn the location two dimensional

and three dimensional, uh, dimension of

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where the victim was at during the attack.

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DrG: Is there anything

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Gabriele Suboch: that blood cannot tell

us what we can learn for BPA You cannot

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find for any other forensic discipline,

so that's what makes it really unique.

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Yeah.

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You know, blood can tell us DNA.

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Blood can tell us a lot of things, but,

um, there is probably some things we

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cannot learn through it because we're

limited to the size, the shape, and the

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distribution pattern of the bloodstains

to our reconstruction of the event.

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Excellent.

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DrG: And then are there any, any ways

as far as when we see, uh, a pool

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of blood, uh, to determine if it is

human blood, if it is animal blood,

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what can, what can investigators.

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Due to,

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Gabriele Suboch: well, we have

several chemical methods, you

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know, to determine if it is blood.

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We can use the Kastle Meier

method, which is the, uh, also

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called phenolthalein test.

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And then we also have the, uh,

hexagon, OBTI, which is a test

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where you can test for human blood.

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So if you don't know if it's human

or animal, I would do the OBTI test.

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That tells you it's human.

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DrG: I have been asked to look at blood

evidence and like the pictures tend

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to be like, really, really important.

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What would you recommend to like

humane agents, uh, to, to do, to be

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able to give you information that

you can use from a scene or such?

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Gabriele Suboch: First of all,

it's very important that you

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take as many photos as possible.

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Take the pictures when you

arrive to the scene in situ,

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you know, like what you see.

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Then, uh, put some, uh, markers

out for the different items

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of evidence you wanna collect.

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Or in blood.

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Same pattern.

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If you have more than one pattern on

the wall, you might want to use letters

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and use the road mapping system.

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To separate the patterns.

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Then, uh, we also have like yellow

tape, which we can put up around

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the whole scene to show the height

and the width of the pattern.

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And like I said, photos,

photos and photos.

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And mark your stains.

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Stains selection is very

important in the reconstruction.

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Take a picture of the stain with

your number on there, with the marker

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on there, with the ruler on there.

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And then obtained a couple of uh,

DNA swabs from the pattern as well.

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DrG: Excellent.

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Well, it was a great lecture and

thank you so much for talking to

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me, and thank you for what you do.

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Gabriele Suboch: It was my pleasure.

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Thank you.

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DrG: All right, so now here

we are with Lauren Day.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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It's so exciting that

you were here last year.

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Yes.

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And now here you are again.

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Thank you for having me again.

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So, can you tell us about

what your presentation

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Lauren Day: today was about?

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Sure.

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So I did an animal law masterclass.

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I basically covered everything from.

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What are the courts in Florida,

the United States courts?

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Um, the life of a criminal case

through the system from the point

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of when a crime occurs all the

way through trial and sentencing.

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How should witnesses prepare

to testify at various hearings?

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Um, what to look for in building

important investigations.

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And then we did some case

studies and lessons learned.

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DrG: Excellent.

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So are you, are you doing this primarily

for humane officers or law enforcement,

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or does it apply to pretty much everybody?

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Lauren Day: It applied to everybody,

um, from the law enforcement officers

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who may be responding, animal services

officers who are working those cases.

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I had some veterinarians in the room,

um, for their expert, uh, involvement

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in the cases, but really for anybody

to just have a better understanding of.

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What a case looks like from a

prosecutor's perspective, from start

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to finish and how we can all work

together to build better cases.

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DrG: Yeah.

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That to me is important because a lot of

the times, like I come into cases just

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to look at the animal evidence, but then

I see sometimes a disconnect between the

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humane officers and the law enforcement

and even the prosecutors, and it kind

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of becomes a, a fight of who's right,

who's wrong, and that kind of stuff.

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When everybody should be

kind of working together.

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Right.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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So what what are the key points

that you wanted people like, you

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know, if there's something that

you want the audience to remember,

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what, what things would those be?

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Lauren Day: Well, I ended my slide on

exactly what you just said, is let's

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work together and remember that we're

all on the same team to try to help

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the animals in our states and in our

communities nationwide, worldwide.

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Um, my best advice is just talk to your

prosecutors, because at the end of the

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day, that's what we're all working for,

is to get a case across the finish line.

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I touched on things such as, you

know, sometimes veterinarians and law

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enforcement get subpoenas for things

and they don't understand why, which

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is why it was important for me to

talk through the life of the case.

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All of these intermediary

hearings that we might have.

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I gave examples of.

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Oh, you might get subpoenaed for

a case where it looks like it's

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a cocaine case or a drug case.

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What does that have to

do with the animals?

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Well, maybe that person was on

probation and then they turn around

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and abused animals, and now you're

gonna be called to testify in a

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violation of probation hearing.

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So just better educating and understanding

the entire process and how again, we can

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all work together to get these people held

accountable and, and help for the animals.

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DrG: Yeah, I think that that's a

really good point because in some of

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the cases that I have worked with,

like I have had some prosecutors

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that talk to me before and tell me

what questions they're gonna ask me.

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Mm-hmm.

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And what things to expect.

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But I've had others that I show up.

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Yeah.

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And it's the first time that

I've met him or listened.

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To them.

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Yeah.

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And they just expect me to,

you know, it is like you're an

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expert, you know everything.

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Right, right.

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So that kinda, as far as veterinarians,

would you say, like, you know,

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they should, they should come

after the prosecutor and be like,

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Hey, you need to prepare me.

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Lauren Day: Right, right.

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Absolutely.

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And I talked about ways to prepare

for, um, different types of testimony,

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whether it's trial, a motion,

a deposition, how that differs.

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I talked about the difference between

even things like I don't remember

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versus I don't recall, and why that's

such an important distinction, and I

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gave them some tips on, hey, if your

prosecutor doesn't reach out to you,

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to you, here's how you can reach out.

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It's okay to ask them to rephrase

questions that best meet the way

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that you wanna explain it based on

your practice and your expertise.

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DrG: I know that sometimes I don't

know if it's a little bit of ego or, or

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just lack of resources, but sometimes

prosecutors don't like to reach out

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and, and try to kind of like learn more.

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Yeah.

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So what would be like your recommendation

for prosecutors that may not be

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super familiar with animal law?

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Lauren Day: Yeah, I know it's

hard because dockets are big.

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Everybody's busy.

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Things come at you fast, but treat

it just like we do any other area.

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And that was an example I gave

in the masterclass was there

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are a lot of prosecutors who

aren't familiar with firearms.

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They don't own them, never shot

them, never handled a firearm.

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But you still have to have a

base level of understanding.

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And when you talk to a firearms

expert, you can't ask a question

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that doesn't make any sense.

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Like, oh, well, was the the shell

casing loaded into the magazine?

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Like that doesn't make sense for anybody

who has a basic understanding of firearms.

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. So you have to educate

yourself at a base level.

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Um, and so I encourage them to treat

animal cases like you would a firearms

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case or like you would a sex crimes

case where you're gonna have to look

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into that area of law and meet with

the experts who have the knowledge.

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DrG: Excellent.

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Is there anything that we

haven't discussed that you, that

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you want people to know about?

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Um, oh gosh.

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It was four hours of hour

trying to figure out if

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Lauren Day: I missed anything.

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But No, I mean, the, the, the,

the moral of the story is work

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together, educate yourself.

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Um, don't be afraid to reach out and

let's have more of a collaborative,

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um, response and effort in getting

these cases across the finish line.

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DrG: Fantastic.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Thank you for having

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Lauren Day: me.

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I appreciate it.

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DrG: Excellent.

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All right, so this last, uh, presentation

was on crime scene investigations and

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Susan Pratt, thank you so much for

being here and for doing this interview

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and for that great presentation.

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Thank you.

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So can you tell us, uh, tell already

audience what was the overall purpose

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of the presentation that you give today?

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Susan Pratt: Um, so it's the collection

preservation, um, and packaging pretty

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much of evidence, whether it is, um,

on the human side or the animal side.

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And how to package it appropriately so

that when it goes to court, um, that we

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are able to do a great presentation, um,

on behalf of the state attorney's office.

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DrG: What, what would you say is your

audience for this kind of a presentation?

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Susan Pratt: So this is more

the people out in the field.

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So if they have to come across the

scene or a situation, the information

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that they receive today would help

them to identify, photograph collect.

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And, submit into their lab, all of

the, you know, whether it's trace

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evidence, physical evidence, anything

to that effect, so that they can

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get the right processing completed.

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I.

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DrG: I think that, um, you know, in

in animal cruelty cases there's a

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lot of emotion because, you know,

there are hurt animals and the

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people that are there usually are

there because they love animals.

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And the first instinct is to run and grab

that animal and take it out to safety.

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But that should not be it, right?

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Susan Pratt: No, because if you've got

an animal, um, that has some kind of

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evidence on it, you know, we want to

make sure to collect everything that

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we possibly can because in some cases.

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You know, you are their voice now.

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Uh, it's like, you know, if there's

a, a dead body, you know, you are

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the only one that can speak for them.

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And that's why I think that that's

part of my, the most important part

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of my job is the idea that, you know,

I need to take a step back sometimes

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and make sure that the collection is

appropriate in order to, um, get the,

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um, get the best results as possible.

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So the most important part

of my job is that I cannot, I

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speak for those that cannot.

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Speak any longer for themselves.

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And so rushing into grab an animal or

rushing in to grab a person, um, and

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trying to get them to safety might not

be the best option for that individual,

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whether it's a person or a dog.

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Um, because we wanna make sure

that we can collect everything that

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is necessary, um, and be able to

get that analyzed and processed.

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The next step is to make sure that

that animal or that person is getting

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the care, uh, whether it's medical

or nutrition that they need to get.

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So just not running in and

grabbing it immediately.

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DrG: From when I did my,

my forensics classes.

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You know, there are right ways and

wrong ways of collecting evidence and

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there is so much difference based on

the type of evidence that you collect

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that it can get really confusing.

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So if we're talking with humane

officers about evidence collection

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and they don't know what to do, what

kinda resources can they look into?

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Susan Pratt: Well, e each

state has a crime lab.

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Um, and so I would suggest that they

contact the crime lab and it's all online.

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They can look it up and, um, see what kind

of, uh, direction or information that that

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crime lab is here in the state of Florida.

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We have FDLE, the Florida Department

of Law Enforcement, and with them,

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we actually have an online, um.

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Uh, an online manual and we have people

that we can contact if we get stumped

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and okay, it's not in the manual.

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What do we do next?

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Um, so FDLE has been very helpful.

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DrG: Fantastic.

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Is there anything in closing that you feel

it's important to let our audience know?

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Susan Pratt: If you see

something, say something.

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Um, because again.

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They can't speak for themselves.

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DrG: Excellent.

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Well, thank you so much for doing this

and thank you for your great presentation.

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Susan Pratt: Thank you very much.

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I appreciate having you here.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.