Episode 20

full
Published on:

26th Jul 2023

Dogfighting and Pitties with Janette Reever

Dogfighting is a cruel and barbaric act that is not only harmful to the animals, it is also a danger to the community. To understand this topic, we have invited dogfighting expert from the Humane Society of the United States, Janette Reever, to discuss what is dogfighting, what isn't, and what it means for Pit Bulls. We also touch on the breed, breed specific legislation, responsible sheltering, and responsible ownership of these dogs.

Dogfighting is a felony in all 50 states. If you suspect animal fighting, contact your local animal control officer, police department, office of the inspector general, or our friends at HSUS. You are not only saving the dogs, you could be saving people as well.

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Transcript
Dr. G:

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

Dr. G:

This is your host, Dr.

Dr. G:

G.

Dr. G:

And our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan.

Dr. G:

Today our special guest is Jeanette Reaver.

Dr. G:

Jeanette is the program manager of Animal Crimes and Investigations and

Dr. G:

Global Animal Rescue and response for both the Humane Society of the United

Dr. G:

States and Humane Society International.

Dr. G:

Thank you so much for being here today.

Janette Reever:

Thank you for having me.

Dr. G:

Can you first let people know kinda like your path, what brought

Dr. G:

you to where you're at, and then what it is that you do at HSUS and HSI?

Janette Reever:

I.

Janette Reever:

Sure.

Janette Reever:

So I started off with a degree in animal science and I've always had

Janette Reever:

a passion for animals in general,

Janette Reever:

of course.

Janette Reever:

In 1996 I moved to Chester, South Carolina.

Janette Reever:

Supposed to be for a very short stint for, um, to help with animal

Janette Reever:

control, get them on, um, on board.

Janette Reever:

I was there two weeks when I did my first dog fighting investigation, and I can

Janette Reever:

tell you now that I missed so much stuff because there was no training back then.

Janette Reever:

There was a lot of stuff that we missed, and I think that's why I'm

Janette Reever:

so passionate now about training.

Janette Reever:

About a year and a half later, I went to DC Animal Control, and I worked

Janette Reever:

in the District of Columbia, a lot of dog fighting, a lot of, um, of

Janette Reever:

course cruelty investigations really fueled my passion for being in the

Janette Reever:

field and helping these animals.

Janette Reever:

I then was the, uh, deputy chief and, uh, an animal control officer in Loudoun

Janette Reever:

County, Virginia, and was there for about nine years until 2009 when I went

Janette Reever:

to Humane Society of United States and became the dog fighting expert and now

Janette Reever:

working globally on working dog fighting investigations alongside law enforcement.

Dr. G:

Cool.

Dr. G:

And you are very well known because I was talking to somebody a few

Dr. G:

days ago about dog fighting, um, a animal control officer, and I

Dr. G:

said that I was gonna be doing an interview with a dog fighting expert.

Dr. G:

And she goes, "oh, Jeanette?".

Dr. G:

So that's great.

Dr. G:

So you are very well known and I'm super excited that to have you here.

Dr. G:

I'm also super excited that I've gotten to learn some stuff from

Dr. G:

you, so you're a great resource.

Dr. G:

We were just in Mexico doing some training for different states

Dr. G:

within Mexico, so that was awesome.

Dr. G:

And my very first dog fighting case in South Carolina, that's still pending,

Dr. G:

so we cannot talk about it, but.

Dr. G:

That case was a pretty large case, and it was my first exposure to it.

Dr. G:

So I was really happy to have had you there, kind of like mentoring me along

Dr. G:

the way to, to help me with some stuff.

Dr. G:

I think everybody, we, we all learned from each other during that.

Dr. G:

During that case.

Janette Reever:

Exactly.

Dr. G:

So let's talk about dog fighting.

Dr. G:

Let's start with kind of like the basics.

Dr. G:

Like what constitutes dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

Well, dog fighting, it's important to understand there's

Janette Reever:

different levels of dog fighters.

Janette Reever:

You've got your street level dog fighters and then you have your organized, so

Janette Reever:

when you're talking about street level dog fighters, these are individuals

Janette Reever:

who, um, predominantly males and predominantly under the, around the

Janette Reever:

ages of 12 to 19, maybe early twenties.

Janette Reever:

And these are are individuals that go out and they have any

Janette Reever:

kind of pit bull type dog.

Janette Reever:

They don't care if the dogs got any papers.

Janette Reever:

They don't care if it's even an American pit bull terrier.

Janette Reever:

They basically will just have the dogs fight.

Janette Reever:

There's no rules.

Janette Reever:

They just go until either one dog dies, quits, or they pick the dog up.

Janette Reever:

Now on the other flip side of that is organized dog fighters.

Janette Reever:

And these are individuals who are known for the bloodlines that they breed.

Janette Reever:

Um, they have specific bloodlines of dogs.

Janette Reever:

They only use American Pit Bull Terriers, which is abbreviated as A P B T.

Janette Reever:

And these dogs are, are basic conditioned for anywhere from six

Janette Reever:

to eight weeks before a fight.

Janette Reever:

So it's very strict, very regimented like you would see with any other

Janette Reever:

type of, um, sporting activity.

Janette Reever:

And these dogs are worth anywhere from $5,000 all the way up.

Janette Reever:

There was one where an individual in an F B I case was offered a million

Janette Reever:

dollars for his dog, and the guy laughed and said, "get outta here,

Janette Reever:

I can make that in breedings alone".

Janette Reever:

So these individuals can make a substantial amount of money when

Janette Reever:

we're talking about dog fighting.

Dr. G:

That's amazing.

Dr. G:

And one of the things is like a lot of people say pitbulls are not a breed,

Dr. G:

but I would think that in this scenario, pit bulls are very much so a breed.

Dr. G:

Right.

Dr. G:

What can you tell us about like their pedigrees and stuff?

Janette Reever:

So with the American Pitbull Terriers, they have been bred

Janette Reever:

and they've been actually documented in, in a pedigree that was started by the

Janette Reever:

American Dog Breeders Association in 1909.

Janette Reever:

And they started this registry because they wanted to legitimize the, the

Janette Reever:

dogs, they wanted to keep track of the dog's lineage, their wins, their losses.

Janette Reever:

And as I said, each dog fighters can have their specific

Janette Reever:

bloodline that they like to use.

Janette Reever:

So basically keep track so that you know what you're looking for.

Janette Reever:

It also tells you if the parents come from winning, winning bloodlines,

Janette Reever:

what weights the dogs are gonna be.

Janette Reever:

'cause when you're talking about dog fighting, you have

Janette Reever:

very specific characteristics.

Janette Reever:

It's not like if you go out to buy a poodle or a dachshund, you're just

Janette Reever:

looking for, you know, whether it's show quality or whether it's pet quality.

Janette Reever:

In dog fighting, they don't care about confirmation.

Janette Reever:

They care about how hard the dog bites.

Janette Reever:

They care about if the dog is what's called game, game is when the dog has

Janette Reever:

the drive and desire to continue to fight, even when even mortally injured.

Janette Reever:

And that's what they're looking for.

Janette Reever:

They're looking for very specific traits in these dogs that as a,

Janette Reever:

a normal and compassionate human being would never want, um, would

Janette Reever:

want to exploit in these dogs.

Dr. G:

And these dogs are basically treated like athletes, right?

Dr. G:

Like they have regimens for exercise and diet.

Dr. G:

How do people come up with those things and how can you identify what those are?

Janette Reever:

So that's a great question.

Janette Reever:

Um, a dog that is gonna be conditioned for a fight.

Janette Reever:

So, um, Dr.

Janette Reever:

G say that you and I are gonna match our dogs.

Janette Reever:

We're gonna agree upon the time, the place, and then

Janette Reever:

we're gonna put down a deposit.

Janette Reever:

It's, it's called a forfeit.

Janette Reever:

And a third person's gonna keep that.

Janette Reever:

So if we're gonna be matching our dogs at 8:00 PM um, say eight weeks from now,

Janette Reever:

I'm gonna start to condition my dog, um, at around 8:00 PM so that he knows

Janette Reever:

that 8:00 PM rolls around, its showtime.

Janette Reever:

Now we're not training these dogs to fight.

Janette Reever:

They've either got the drive and desire, or they don't, you

Janette Reever:

cannot train a dog to fight.

Janette Reever:

Um, it's something that these dogs are bred that's physically bred into them.

Janette Reever:

And so what you're doing is getting them physically fit.

Janette Reever:

You're getting them, um, trained so that they can have the endurance

Janette Reever:

and they can fight for three and a half to four hours at a time.

Janette Reever:

And, uh, I dunno if anybody here has ever done kickboxing or done

Janette Reever:

sparring in the ring, but let me tell you after a minute, you think that

Janette Reever:

it's been, you know, 20, 30 minutes.

Janette Reever:

It's, it's very grueling.

Janette Reever:

So you can just imagine with these dogs how long that goes.

Janette Reever:

So the most common practice they use is either using what's called

Janette Reever:

a slap mill, which is basically a self-propelling treadmill that's

Janette Reever:

designed for dogs with sides on it.

Janette Reever:

Um, they may do road work, which means they'll either have the dog run

Janette Reever:

beside a car, maybe they'll be beside a bike, and these dogs will go for 10

Janette Reever:

to 15 miles a day, six days a week.

Janette Reever:

So you're basically getting them so these dogs have, um, what's called air

Janette Reever:

in the lungs, meaning that they're gonna be able to, to go for hours on end.

Janette Reever:

Um, one , important thing to point out too is with these pit bull type dogs is

Janette Reever:

when when you watch these videos of these dogs fighting, You can actually see that

Janette Reever:

the dogs check in with their handle or their owner, and they'll have, uh, a very

Janette Reever:

distinct click, or a whistle or a snap, and they'll start calling out to the dog

Janette Reever:

and you'll see the dog will basically get a second wind and continue to fight.

Janette Reever:

So oftentimes these dogs are continuing and get a second wind, if you

Janette Reever:

will, um, simply because they wanna please their handler, their owner.

Janette Reever:

They're very much for wanting to get acceptance and

Janette Reever:

approval from their handler.

Janette Reever:

Now, because these dogs do fight and they fight face-to-face, it brings

Janette Reever:

up a really important, um, aspect on here is the signs of the injuries.

Janette Reever:

And Dr.

Janette Reever:

G as you witnessed, these dogs are gonna have injuries that are

Janette Reever:

consistent with dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

It's gonna be on the face, the front legs are gonna be most common.

Janette Reever:

You may find injuries on the back legs, such as the stifle, but in the

Janette Reever:

beginning, these dogs, when they're first released in the pit, in the the fighting

Janette Reever:

area, As soon as they're released, they immediately go to their opponent.

Janette Reever:

And this is because it's, it's a frontal attack.

Janette Reever:

Unlike injuries that you may see with two dogs that get into a fight, you may

Janette Reever:

see that there's injuries on the face, you may see that there's injuries on

Janette Reever:

the back of the neck, maybe the romp.

Janette Reever:

But dogs that are not bred specifically for fighting will not, um, continue to

Janette Reever:

fight until, um, they won't continue to fight even after they're exhausted.

Janette Reever:

Even if you have two very dog aggressive dogs, they're going to stop at some point.

Janette Reever:

They just don't have the physical capacity.

Janette Reever:

So the things that we look for is injuries that are on the face, the front legs.

Janette Reever:

How severe is the scarring?

Janette Reever:

Is it one where it's, it's, um, devastating bites there?

Janette Reever:

So if you look at a dog, even if you Google a dog that was rescued from a

Janette Reever:

dog fighting pit, and you look at them, you'll see they have these white flicking

Janette Reever:

or, or looks like scarring on the face.

Janette Reever:

Sometimes it's just gonna be discoloration of the hair.

Janette Reever:

That's because when, uh, a dog is bitten, it's a traumatic injury that

Janette Reever:

that destroys the hair follicles.

Janette Reever:

So when that hair goes back, it's gonna grow back white or very light.

Janette Reever:

That's why it's easier to see any kind of injuries on a darker colored dog.

Janette Reever:

Uh, case we recently did in Australia, they actually sedated

Janette Reever:

the dogs and we clipped the dogs.

Janette Reever:

And sometimes you wouldn't see the injuries, but as soon as these

Janette Reever:

dogs were clipped, the amount of scarring was immense on these dogs.

Janette Reever:

You saw a lot of damage to the skin, a lot of raised hair that was covered up.

Janette Reever:

Now the dogs aren't started to fight until they're about 18 months to

Janette Reever:

pre preferably two years of age.

Janette Reever:

So it's not uncommon if you go to somebody's property and you think, you

Janette Reever:

know, I think you may be fighting dogs and say it's a bunch of younger dogs.

Janette Reever:

They don't, they'd be either very minimal scarring or no scarring.

Janette Reever:

It's gonna be important to take into account the age of the dogs because

Janette Reever:

they typically will not start full-blown fighting and, and, uh, rolling, which

Janette Reever:

is a term used to describe short fights, getting them conditioned

Janette Reever:

until they're about two years of age.

Janette Reever:

So all of these things come into account, um, of the reasons why maybe

Janette Reever:

they're not, not showing clinical signs or, or visual signs of dog fighting.

Dr. G:

So I, on one of the videos that you had sent me of dog fighting,

Dr. G:

one of the things that I found really, um, interesting was the

Dr. G:

fact that it, it looked like it was almost in slow motion, right?

Dr. G:

So the, the dogs latched onto each other and then they were just

Dr. G:

standing there, almost dancing in place attached to each other.

Dr. G:

And then they let them be like that for a few minutes, and then they

Dr. G:

used a bite stick to separate 'em, and then they let him go back at it.

Dr. G:

So I think that people think of dog fights, like, you know, it happens

Dr. G:

and it's really quick and that it's done, but it, that doesn't seem to

Dr. G:

be the case all the time, right?

Janette Reever:

Exactly.

Janette Reever:

And if you, if you've ever seen a dog fight, it's, it's, uh, especially an

Janette Reever:

organized dog fight, it's horrific.

Janette Reever:

Um, before I started doing these investigations, I thought that the

Janette Reever:

dogs would be screaming in pain.

Janette Reever:

They would be, you know, try, it would be fast-paced, which is quite the contrary.

Janette Reever:

Typically, you don't hear the dogs.

Janette Reever:

Maybe in the beginning you hear some yiping, they're excited.

Janette Reever:

Um, you'll hear that, but you don't.

Janette Reever:

There's very little noise coming from the dogs vocalizing after the fight starts.

Janette Reever:

So, just like your MMA fighters, your boxers, dogs are gonna have

Janette Reever:

their favorite fight styles or holds.

Janette Reever:

And so, like some of the videos I sent you, you may have one

Janette Reever:

that's called a head dog.

Janette Reever:

And this is a dog who likes to focus on the head.

Janette Reever:

So they'll, they'll grab a hold of their opponent's head on the muzzle,

Janette Reever:

and that's their favorite spot.

Janette Reever:

So you may see that a dog as, uh, one dog may have a hold of his paw.

Janette Reever:

His opponent has a hold of his muzzle or his face, and they're not moving.

Janette Reever:

So basically they're just, they're, they're putting a tremendous amount

Janette Reever:

of pressure, bone crushing pressure.

Janette Reever:

And if the dogs don't break, or if they're, if, if they're, they're

Janette Reever:

outta holds, they will say to the referee to break your dogs, you'll

Janette Reever:

remove them to the other side of the pit and they'll let them go.

Janette Reever:

So it is, it isn't one where, you know, where it's fast paced, where

Janette Reever:

the dogs are moving the whole time.

Janette Reever:

It can be something, uh, where a dog is trying to struggle to get out of

Janette Reever:

a hold and another dog has got just horrendous pressure on his opponent.

Janette Reever:

And, um, and they'll, it's not uncommon for the dogs to, you know, they'll

Janette Reever:

leave them there for, you know, 20, 30 minutes where these dogs are bleeding

Janette Reever:

out and they'll continue to fight because they know they're not picking

Janette Reever:

up the dog because he's not of any use.

Janette Reever:

If the dog didn't do well in the pit, they'll just leave 'em.

Dr. G:

Going back a little bit to conditioning, one of the things that

Dr. G:

I did wanna discuss was some people think that conditioning involves

Dr. G:

the use of so-called bait dogs.

Dr. G:

And I hate the term because I think that a lot of people make a lot of money out

Dr. G:

of saying, oh, rescued from a dog fighting ring, and it's a bait dog just because

Dr. G:

it has injuries and that kind of stuff.

Dr. G:

So what can you tell us about bait dogs?

Janette Reever:

That is one of the biggest myths out there.

Janette Reever:

And again, I used to believe this because it was all the bait dog

Janette Reever:

myths started in the eighties and it has been perpetuated to this day.

Janette Reever:

And there are people that are, that I know well that still believe the bait dog myth.

Janette Reever:

And the reason why it's such a myth is one, um, it's even been written

Janette Reever:

about in dog fighting magazines and people make fun of the bait dog myth.

Janette Reever:

But when you think about it, if you use a dog of lesser quality for a dog

Janette Reever:

that's gonna be an opponent, that dog's gonna give no, um, it's, it's

Janette Reever:

not gonna give any kind of challenge.

Janette Reever:

So I like to equate it to, um, Mike Tyson is coming back for, he's coming in to do

Janette Reever:

his boxing and I'm his sparring partner.

Janette Reever:

Now I'm gonna give him no, no kind of challenge.

Janette Reever:

There's, you know, I'm basically gonna run out of the pit.

Janette Reever:

Um, he's not gonna catch me type thing.

Janette Reever:

So it's the exact same thing with, with, with bait dogs.

Janette Reever:

Bait dogs are ones that have been made up, um, by well-meaning people.

Janette Reever:

And oftentimes people say, I have a bait dog.

Janette Reever:

I found this dog on the street.

Janette Reever:

He is covered in scars from head to toe.

Janette Reever:

He's got fresh injuries and wounds.

Janette Reever:

And they even send pictures.

Janette Reever:

And you say, okay, that, that's definitely appears to be

Janette Reever:

consistent with dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

And they'll think they're bait dogs because they'll bring the dog inside.

Janette Reever:

He sleeps with the children.

Janette Reever:

He loves the cat.

Janette Reever:

He, he's great with other dogs.

Janette Reever:

They get 'em neutered and he's part of the family.

Janette Reever:

So they're thinking.

Janette Reever:

There's no way that this sweet dog could be such a monster.

Janette Reever:

And so that's where it comes into play.

Janette Reever:

That, that you have to understand there is a distinct difference

Janette Reever:

between gameness and dog aggression.

Janette Reever:

So dog aggression is when a dog may be possessive of a person.

Janette Reever:

Maybe he, he or she doesn't like other dogs.

Janette Reever:

Gameness is when you put that dog into the pit, it's almost

Janette Reever:

like a light switch comes on.

Janette Reever:

And as soon as you face that dog off, he knows it's time to work.

Janette Reever:

So, There's, uh, some of the most famous dog fighters have dogs.

Janette Reever:

Um, one, one really good example that you can research is, uh, is

Janette Reever:

Gambler, and that is Bob Loomis.

Janette Reever:

And with his dog, Virgil Virgil was a five time winner, and Virgil

Janette Reever:

would kill any dog in the pit.

Janette Reever:

He was, was notorious to having, just, just in decimate his opponents.

Janette Reever:

Yet there's a, a homemade video of Virgil.

Janette Reever:

Um, after he retired, he made his owner an incredible amount of money,

Janette Reever:

basically put him on the maps.

Janette Reever:

And so you let rg he let Virgil jump out of the thing.

Janette Reever:

He went through all the dogs, the fighting dogs that are on the chain.

Janette Reever:

Not a problem.

Janette Reever:

If you had those exact same dogs that were in a pit and faced off to one

Janette Reever:

another, we'd have, they would've, Virgil would've, would've killed his opponent

Janette Reever:

or, or extreme, or extremely hurt them.

Janette Reever:

Virgil also, um, slept with cats and there's videos and

Janette Reever:

just a bunch of stuff on here.

Janette Reever:

Virgil with other dogs.

Janette Reever:

Um, Golden King is another very well-known dog fighter who's

Janette Reever:

got a bunch of grand champions.

Janette Reever:

These are dogs as won five fights or more with no losses, and

Janette Reever:

those dogs walk with other dogs.

Janette Reever:

But again, you put those exact same dogs in the pit and

Janette Reever:

they're gonna kill that dog.

Janette Reever:

So there's a distinct difference between gameness and dog aggression.

Janette Reever:

I'm not saying that every dog, um, that that comes outta the pit, that you're

Janette Reever:

gonna be able to put them together.

Janette Reever:

Some are game and dog aggressive and you just cannot have them with others.

Janette Reever:

But the majority of the time, these dogs, after they're spayed and neutered,

Janette Reever:

put into the right homes, um, usually it's gonna be male and female, um, dogs,

Janette Reever:

and they, they live very well together.

Janette Reever:

Most of my PowerPoint that, that you've seen, Dr.

Janette Reever:

G, is it shows there, the, the, the majority of the dogs that I show went on

Janette Reever:

to live with multi, multi-species homes.

Dr. G:

That was one of the things that I found most interesting at

Dr. G:

that dog fighting case that we went to is that I was a little bit

Dr. G:

concerned as far as safety, right?

Dr. G:

So we're going to get into a place that there's potentially, first the

Dr. G:

safety of the people as far as with the individuals that are fighting these dogs.

Dr. G:

Like, are we gonna get there?

Dr. G:

And we're gonna get shot at, like, what's gonna happen?

Dr. G:

But then once we start getting these animals, are they gonna start

Dr. G:

trying to attack us or bite us?

Dr. G:

And it was amazing how none of those dogs were acting aggressive against us.

Dr. G:

And some of them did not care about the other dogs that were around them.

Dr. G:

And some of them definitely looked like they hated some specific dog, uh,

Dr. G:

like there was, uh, something there.

Dr. G:

So, so yeah, I got to see firsthand how these dogs were really looking

Dr. G:

for us, if anything, to for attention.

Dr. G:

And that is really important because they have to be able to be in a pit with their

Dr. G:

owner and not redirect the aggression at them.

Dr. G:

Right.

Dr. G:

So I know that there's even some, some things that are used for exercising

Dr. G:

them that are more like game, right?

Dr. G:

To try to create a bond with them.

Dr. G:

Like what are, what are the kind of things that they do to help strengthen that bond?

Janette Reever:

So, um, uh, just to add real quickly on what you said about

Janette Reever:

getting the dogs off the pit that is, or off the chain, um, is one of the

Janette Reever:

ways that they train these dogs, or I should say condition these dogs is by

Janette Reever:

having them in super close confinement.

Janette Reever:

And as you've seen, in other cases, the dogs will be inches apart from each other.

Janette Reever:

It's called chain circles where the dog's chain that dirt spot

Janette Reever:

is basically his entire life.

Janette Reever:

And so being so close to these dogs, being to one another, they're terriers, of

Janette Reever:

course, they're very high and high energy.

Janette Reever:

They're frustrated 'cause they're on a chain.

Janette Reever:

They're frustrated because they want to run.

Janette Reever:

It's, it goes against any quality they have.

Janette Reever:

And so having someone beside you that's barking constantly, it's like,

Janette Reever:

it's like being in a, a, an endless car ride with your brother or sister

Janette Reever:

and is constantly just knackering back and forth at one another.

Janette Reever:

When you take these dogs off, off the chain and you put them against

Janette Reever:

their opponent, they're so, they have so much built up frustration that

Janette Reever:

just the housing itself is enough to help with conditioning these dogs,

Janette Reever:

to, to bring out the, the qualities.

Janette Reever:

Some other things they will do, um, is what's called a flirt pole.

Janette Reever:

A flirt pole is if you take a long stick or a pole, be something as simple

Janette Reever:

as a string on the end, and you tie on it, either cow hide, deer hide, or

Janette Reever:

something of substantial quality and you basically flick it on the ground.

Janette Reever:

That dog is going to lock onto that and he's gonna try and catch it.

Janette Reever:

And so what dog fighters are doing is one, is, uh, you're, is is getting that bond.

Janette Reever:

Um, you're, you're bonding with that dog.

Janette Reever:

Number two, the dog is going to, it's gonna help build up the eye

Janette Reever:

coordination because if you're flicking this around, um, he's

Janette Reever:

gonna build up a eye coordination.

Janette Reever:

So when it is time for him to go in the pit and say, your dog tries to be

Janette Reever:

sneaky and grab my dog stifle, he's got that eye coordination built up

Janette Reever:

and he's gonna see it coming counter and get a better hold on your dog.

Janette Reever:

See, and obviously the, and the main thing here is that it's your

Janette Reever:

building up the endurance also.

Janette Reever:

So it's a win-win.

Janette Reever:

It's important to point out that just because you have, um, say

Janette Reever:

a treadmill or flirt pole does not mean you're a dog fighter.

Janette Reever:

Um, you have to put the pieces together.

Janette Reever:

It's the totality.

Janette Reever:

Dogs with fresh or old scarring.

Janette Reever:

What do you have there?

Janette Reever:

So it's, I don't want people to think that you have a, you have

Janette Reever:

a pit bull and you have a flirt pole then you're a dog fighter.

Janette Reever:

That's not, that's not how the law works.

Janette Reever:

Um, other methods they may use, and we'll see this more down south, they're,

Janette Reever:

you know, in the islands and such, they'll have swim tanks where they'll,

Janette Reever:

they'll have the dog swimming in there.

Janette Reever:

They may have 'em in a pond or in a lake.

Janette Reever:

Will tie them out there to swim.

Janette Reever:

There's different variations that they can use.

Janette Reever:

They also have what's called roll dogs.

Janette Reever:

Now rolling, as I said previously, this is a very short, controlled

Janette Reever:

fight, um, between dogs.

Janette Reever:

The older the dogs get, the little bit longer it goes.

Janette Reever:

During this process, they're gonna weed out the dogs who don't make the cut.

Janette Reever:

Maybe a dog that is, um, that's, uh, that's, they'll, the term it is looking

Janette Reever:

at the clock, like constantly looking at the pit wall, looking for a way out.

Janette Reever:

Um, or a dog that maybe doesn't wanna fight.

Janette Reever:

He doesn't, he's, even though he's bred from impeccable bloodlines,

Janette Reever:

he doesn't have the gameness.

Janette Reever:

So the dogs may be, um, they'll, they're gonna cull any dog

Janette Reever:

that doesn't have that ability.

Janette Reever:

So once the dogs, they, they weed out the ones they know they're gonna keep,

Janette Reever:

they're gonna continue this process until they have the best outta the quality.

Janette Reever:

This is going to be, um, they'll use, typically they'll take dogs that

Janette Reever:

either are to, are past their prime, but yet they've still their game.

Janette Reever:

And they can still throw a young dog around.

Janette Reever:

They're gonna use what's called roll dogs.

Janette Reever:

And these are fighting dogs that just aren't gonna be put into the pit anymore.

Janette Reever:

They can do short fights, but they just don't have the capacity

Janette Reever:

for these long-term fights.

Janette Reever:

So you'll see that they'll be put in there with roll dogs, um, or other dogs to,

Janette Reever:

um, you know, to kind of weed them out.

Janette Reever:

And the methods that they use to, to cull these dogs or kill these

Janette Reever:

dogs is typically electrocution, um, hanging, which takes anywhere

Janette Reever:

from eight to 12 minutes on average.

Janette Reever:

Um, drowning, I mean, just the most barbaric methods you can think.

Janette Reever:

These people are just, you know, derelicts of society.

Janette Reever:

They, they have no problem with abusing humans, let alone an animal.

Dr. G:

And speaking of that, I mean, People that are involved in

Dr. G:

dog fighting are usually involved in other crimes as well, right?

Dr. G:

As there's like human trafficking and child pornography and that kind of stuff.

Dr. G:

So what are the, what are the dangers to society from people

Dr. G:

that are involved in dog fighting?

Janette Reever:

Um, that is 100% true.

Janette Reever:

Dog fighting is considered a cluster crime, meaning just like with child

Janette Reever:

molestation, just like with domestic violence, it's typically not just

Janette Reever:

one crime you're associated with.

Janette Reever:

So dog fighting studies have shown, and the FBI actually, two analysts

Janette Reever:

recently did a, a paper on this and it demonstrates that there is a, a distinct

Janette Reever:

link with people who commit violent acts against animals and against humans.

Janette Reever:

So when dog fighting in particular, it's, it's been shown over and over

Janette Reever:

these individuals very, very commonly are involved in other nefarious activities,

Janette Reever:

um, domestic violence, child abuse, um, very common that we see child molestation

Janette Reever:

or child pornography found on computers.

Janette Reever:

Um, human trafficking.

Janette Reever:

The cartel has really started to put, put a foothold more.

Janette Reever:

We're seeing it mostly with cockfighting, but we, of course,

Janette Reever:

it is very, very prevalent with the cartel, um, in other countries.

Janette Reever:

But we're seeing it start to move more into the United States

Janette Reever:

like we are with cockfighting.

Janette Reever:

Um, Using people for this, but it is one where this is not just about the animals.

Janette Reever:

Um, we emphasize this a lot to law enforcement or federal agencies when

Janette Reever:

we'll say, um, you know, if you're looking for people that are dealing large

Janette Reever:

quantities of drugs, if you're looking for people that are making bombs or

Janette Reever:

involved in hate groups, most of the time they are also involved in dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

The best way to get, um, to get to these people in the conduit is to use

Janette Reever:

the animal fighting investigation.

Janette Reever:

get in there.

Janette Reever:

that's how one of the major F B I and dog fighting cases was back in 2016.

Janette Reever:

367 dogs were seized.

Janette Reever:

And these were from individuals that had, had done murders for hires.

Janette Reever:

They had allegations of human trafficking, domestic violence and, murders.

Janette Reever:

Um, so there was a lot the, we're talking about people that were just

Janette Reever:

horrible in society in general.

Janette Reever:

So this one, um, started off where they couldn't get these people for drugs.

Janette Reever:

Um, they got a allegation for, um, murder for hire, and turned into, into

Janette Reever:

a case where, uh, we ended up taking, we hit eight states and between the

Janette Reever:

ASPCA and HSUS, we took possession of all the dogs, which at the time was 367.

Janette Reever:

After it was all said and done, there was hundreds of puppies that were born.

Janette Reever:

Um, so put the, the number up there, um, just under 500 dogs after all was said

Janette Reever:

and done with the breeding and such.

Janette Reever:

But that really took a lot of really horrible people off the streets

Janette Reever:

that were not only just a danger to humans, but of course to animals.

Dr. G:

That's one of the things that the ACO that I was talking to, she

Dr. G:

said that one of the issues that she was having with her case is that

Dr. G:

it was in multiple states, right?

Dr. G:

So she is an animal control officer here in Ohio, so she can handle some

Dr. G:

of this stuff going in Ohio, but there were some other stuff in other states.

Dr. G:

So how do those, uh, multi-state cases get, get managed?

Janette Reever:

So the multi-state cases, um, can be difficult.

Janette Reever:

So what I would strongly recommend is get in touch with the agency called O I G, and

Janette Reever:

that's the Office of Inspector General.

Janette Reever:

Now the O I G agents, they're, they're sworn just like any other agent.

Janette Reever:

Um, they have the same.

Janette Reever:

They're on this exact same training, et cetera.

Janette Reever:

Um, but they are sworn under federal law that they are to

Janette Reever:

enforce not only food stamp fraud, but also animal fighting cases.

Janette Reever:

And, as you know, they're really taking a strong, strong stance

Janette Reever:

against animal fighting, both dog fighting and cockfighting.

Janette Reever:

In, South Carolina, there has been a large number of dog fighting cases.

Janette Reever:

Recently, Kentucky.

Janette Reever:

There was recently a cockfighting case in Ohio.

Janette Reever:

You have an outstanding federal agent, Mark Barnhart, who and

Janette Reever:

who he does all the dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

So basically, even if they don't take the case, they can work with law enforcement

Janette Reever:

and get them working with other agencies.

Janette Reever:

Of course

Janette Reever:

we can also help at HSUS, we can also help with putting them in touch with people,

Janette Reever:

getting touch with other agencies and building up the evidence that is needed.

Janette Reever:

Um, not law enforcement of course, but we can help, um, facilitate between law

Janette Reever:

enforcement and get some interest there.

Janette Reever:

But the federal agencies is an excellent way.

Janette Reever:

Normally do you have the three, um, three letters behind

Janette Reever:

your name and special agent?

Janette Reever:

Um, it, it helps get buy-in from law enforcement, but it also, you have

Janette Reever:

those other agents and other states.

Dr. G:

And dog fighting is a felony in all 50 states, is that right?

Janette Reever:

Yes, and it's a, it's also a

Janette Reever:

felony to fight dogs for federal level.

Janette Reever:

It's a federal misdemeanor to be a spectator.

Janette Reever:

And 16, and under the age of 16, it's also a federal felony to bring

Janette Reever:

a child to a dog fight or cockfight.

Janette Reever:

So any kind of animal fighting venue.

Janette Reever:

And unfortunately, we see this quite a bit.

Janette Reever:

If I may add, we see this quite a bit where children are indoctrinated

Janette Reever:

into this, especially little boys.

Janette Reever:

There was one case in particular many, many years ago.

Janette Reever:

Um, little boy was eight years old.

Janette Reever:

His father, um, had hung one of his dogs that didn't do well in the pit.

Janette Reever:

He went to school resource officer, he was devastated.

Janette Reever:

He was so upset.

Janette Reever:

He ended up confiding in the school resource officer and we tried to get

Janette Reever:

local law enforcement to do something.

Janette Reever:

Unfortunately, nothing happened.

Janette Reever:

Move forward to now.

Janette Reever:

The individual has moved so many times that once you get interest, he, he moves.

Janette Reever:

Um, but, um, his son is now involved in dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

So it's one where you have this compassionate little boy who

Janette Reever:

has just been, you know, pushed into this lifestyle and is now

Janette Reever:

following his father's footsteps.

Janette Reever:

So this is one that you'll see is the children unfortunately get caught up

Janette Reever:

in this lifestyle and they go right down the same, the same path, just

Janette Reever:

like you will with domestic violence.

Janette Reever:

It's, it's learned violence.

Dr. G:

I've seen that personally because growing up in Puerto Rico, cockfighting

Dr. G:

is a big thing and it, it, it hurts me.

Dr. G:

And when we went to Mexico, bull fighting is a big thing and people

Dr. G:

see the, the animal abuse, but it's hidden behind the veil of culture.

Dr. G:

Well, this is part of our culture.

Dr. G:

So yeah, we like animals, we love animals.

Dr. G:

We want laws to protect animals, but leave our cockfighting alone.

Dr. G:

Leave our bull fighting alone and that kind of stuff.

Dr. G:

And yeah, that's one of the things that I see as kinda like this

Dr. G:

desensitization, if anything.

Dr. G:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. G:

Uh, to animal killing, because regardless of how you wanna call

Dr. G:

it, it is just animal abuse and animal killing in a barbaric way.

Janette Reever:

If I may add to that, there is also a belief that

Janette Reever:

dog fighting or cockfighting is only done in rural countries or in, in

Janette Reever:

the inner cities, which is not true.

Janette Reever:

Dog fighting in particular, it doesn't matter race, color.

Janette Reever:

Um, females participate just as, um, not as much, but females.

Janette Reever:

One of the top in the nation is a female dog fighter who's

Janette Reever:

also an animal control officer.

Janette Reever:

So there are these individuals that, um, you can't say,

Janette Reever:

okay, this is a white female.

Janette Reever:

She drives a red Corvette.

Janette Reever:

There's no way she's into dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

That is not the case.

Janette Reever:

You can't say because someone of their religious or their economic status,

Janette Reever:

you, you can't discount anybody.

Janette Reever:

Also with dog fighting, because these dogs are so quiet when they're in

Janette Reever:

the pit, you can have a dog fight in a multimillion dollar McMansion

Janette Reever:

that is maybe six feet away from the neighbor and nobody will hear it.

Janette Reever:

So it's one that you can't say these, these individuals

Janette Reever:

aren't involved in dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

There's no way they're pillars of society or, or they're a

Janette Reever:

coach or they're a teacher.

Janette Reever:

Um, we've seen all walks of life do this.

Janette Reever:

So it's important to recognize that anybody can be involved in dog fighting

Janette Reever:

and not to discount just 'cause of who they are or their physical appearance.

Dr. G:

Here, you know, as a, as a veterinarian, every now and then you

Dr. G:

see a dog and then you get kind of concerned about could this be a dog from

Dr. G:

a dog fighting and that kind of stuff.

Dr. G:

But then also the, the other side of that is that dogs are dogs,

Dr. G:

and dogs will get into fights.

Dr. G:

So I don't want people to be concerned that if their dog is a pit bull or a

Dr. G:

pitbull type breed and it has scars or it got into a fight that they're going to

Dr. G:

go into a veterinary clinic and they're automatically going to call the police.

Dr. G:

'cause especially Ohio is now a mandatory reporting state.

Dr. G:

So if we see or believe that there's negligence or abuse or cruelty, we

Dr. G:

are mandated to, to report that crime.

Dr. G:

But it's not, you know, again, dogs will get into fights.

Dr. G:

It's all about seeing patterns and, and that kind of stuff.

Dr. G:

What are going to be the injuries that we're going to expect from a dog

Dr. G:

fight that it's more to dogs getting into a fight as opposed to dogs

Dr. G:

that are trained for dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

Right.

Janette Reever:

And it's not just the scarring that you're looking for.

Janette Reever:

So exactly like you said, it's not gonna be just that one incident.

Janette Reever:

If it's truly dog fight, there'll be other evidence there.

Janette Reever:

And I'm a big believer if you see something, say something, whether it's

Janette Reever:

a human that's being abused or you have any kind of concern, same thing

Janette Reever:

as animals, children, and the elderly.

Janette Reever:

These, they're, they're just like animals in the sense that they can't report it.

Janette Reever:

They're, they're afraid.

Janette Reever:

Um, so it's so important that you be the advocate and you,

Janette Reever:

you bring any kind of concerns.

Janette Reever:

I'd much rather investigate and find that it's not dog fighting

Janette Reever:

than have there be a hundred calls come in and, and miss that one.

Janette Reever:

So, um, definitely if you see something, say something.

Dr. G:

In Ohio, the law that mandates us to report also protect

Dr. G:

against reporting in good faith.

Dr. G:

I always tell like fellow veterinarians, because a lot of people are afraid to say

Dr. G:

something because of the repercussions.

Dr. G:

But it's not about saying we're we're not blaming somebody,

Dr. G:

we're not accusing somebody.

Dr. G:

All we're asking is for a checkup.

Dr. G:

Like whether it be a wellness check, just whatever.

Dr. G:

And, and realistically people that are doing things in good faith usually

Dr. G:

appreciate that checkup, right?

Dr. G:

Like the veterinarian cared enough about my family and my dog to send

Dr. G:

somebody to see what's going on.

Dr. G:

Usually the people that are gonna be angry and complain are gonna be the

Dr. G:

people that are doing something sketchy.

Dr. G:

'cause that's just the, the way that is.

Dr. G:

Uh, so are, are there any resources for veterinarians that want to

Dr. G:

learn more about the signs of dog fighting and kind of what things

Dr. G:

to look for at their clinic?

Janette Reever:

There is, HSUS offers free training to law enforcement.

Janette Reever:

Obviously you are a, a, just a, a very highly coveted instructor for us.

Janette Reever:

But I think it's so important for, um, for veterinarians, for law enforcement,

Janette Reever:

animal control, for people who are in the field, they have to learn

Janette Reever:

what to look for plus learn what some of the, um, what some of the people

Janette Reever:

may say, I'm not fighting my dogs.

Janette Reever:

All this evidence here paraphernalia is 'cause I do weight pulling, whether it's,

Janette Reever:

there's, that's two totally different things, not only from the one time winner

Janette Reever:

versus the point rating system when you're talking about wins, um, to the, the amount

Janette Reever:

of, of, uh, weights that's being pulled.

Janette Reever:

So it's so important that, that you get to know, um, everybody in your

Janette Reever:

community, especially if you're a veterinarian, law enforcement,

Janette Reever:

um, non-sworn law enforcement.

Janette Reever:

I.

Janette Reever:

Make friends, make friends outside of your jurisdiction and then know what to

Janette Reever:

look for, know what, what is out there, whether it's online training that's, um,

Janette Reever:

that, that we do, there's some really good resources out there pertaining to that

Janette Reever:

offers training.

Janette Reever:

Also make sure that it's accredited and up to date.

Janette Reever:

Um, if someone starts talking about bait dogs or someone starts talking

Janette Reever:

about trunking, then that, that's, that, that is antiquated information

Janette Reever:

that has been disproved over and over.

Janette Reever:

So we try and make sure that, that the information we provide is gonna be germane

Janette Reever:

and specific to your location and to their, um, for example, in Ohio, like you

Janette Reever:

said, you guys are now, um, uh, mandatory reporters, so that's gonna be imperative

Janette Reever:

that veterinarians and their staff feel comfortable, um, on what they can report.

Janette Reever:

Um, there's so many, um, nuances there such as, you know, animals.

Janette Reever:

Uh, They may say, my dog broke a bone when, uh, he was running

Janette Reever:

in the field, but yet the dog's covered in scars to take an x-ray.

Janette Reever:

And you can actually see the, the bite wounds in there.

Janette Reever:

So there's things that, that they should look for.

Janette Reever:

Um, but the main thing is, is if if you feel like you, you have dog fighting,

Janette Reever:

you're not getting anywhere, you can reach out to me, um, my contact

Janette Reever:

information is available for anybody.

Janette Reever:

It is 100% confidential and there have been cases where law enforcements

Janette Reever:

reach out and ask me, will I testify in court and or write an expert opinion?

Janette Reever:

And it's just simply, there's not enough evidence there or it's not dog

Janette Reever:

fighting, um, that they're looking at.

Janette Reever:

But again, I take it as you said in the beginning of the podcast, that

Janette Reever:

everything is learning opportunity.

Janette Reever:

I learn something new all the time.

Janette Reever:

Working with you, I've, I've learned stuff.

Janette Reever:

So I think it's important that people keep an open mind and uh, and remember

Janette Reever:

that you are always learning every single day is a learning opportunity.

Dr. G:

I always start my forensic lectures with one of my favorite TV shows ever was

Dr. G:

House and he was always saying People lie.

Dr. G:

And so I start with a picture of Dr.

Dr. G:

House, and I say People lie because whether it's on purpose or by omission,

Dr. G:

you have to hear the history, but you have to do the examination.

Dr. G:

You have to make the observations, and then you have to make an objective, uh,

Dr. G:

interpretation of what you're seeing.

Dr. G:

It doesn't mean that the person is lying.

Dr. G:

It, it means that it's just information that you're getting, and then you

Dr. G:

have to put everything together.

Dr. G:

Another favorite show is CSI, and Grissom always says the evidence doesn't lie, so

Dr. G:

I just kind of put those things together.

Dr. G:

It's like, we're gonna listen to the history, we're gonna take

Dr. G:

it into consideration, but we've gotta look at the evidence and

Dr. G:

we have to see what's going on.

Dr. G:

As you said, just seeing a treadmill doesn't mean that somebody is

Dr. G:

training dogs for fighting, just seeing vitamins in somebody's

Dr. G:

house, seeing creatine or whatever.

Dr. G:

But then you start putting everything together and then

Dr. G:

you're going to, to get into.

Dr. G:

Knowing that that is potentially what's, what's happening.

Dr. G:

Um, so, uh, one of the things actually that you just brought up that I had

Dr. G:

not heard before until, uh, one of the presentations that you sent me

Dr. G:

was this whole thing about trunking.

Dr. G:

So can you tell people what that is?

Janette Reever:

Sure.

Janette Reever:

So, um, I think it was right around the, the late nineties

Janette Reever:

people, um, the, what all started with, let me back up a little bit.

Janette Reever:

Um, there were two dogs that were found in a trunk, and the dogs,

Janette Reever:

uh, were coming back from Michigan, heading down to, to Tennessee.

Janette Reever:

And as they're traveling through West Virginia, a state trooper pulled them

Janette Reever:

over and the, the taillight was flickering on and off, and the trunk was moving

Janette Reever:

a little bit and there were smears of blood on, on the, the base of the trunk.

Janette Reever:

So the trooper pulled the car over, he did a felony traffic stop thinking,

Janette Reever:

oh my gosh, is there a body inside, you know, someone being transported?

Janette Reever:

So when they pulled them over, they opened up the trunk and they

Janette Reever:

found a deceased female pit bull.

Janette Reever:

And then they found a male pit bull.

Janette Reever:

Well, the media automatically said, oh my gosh, there, it's,

Janette Reever:

it's a new trend called trunking.

Janette Reever:

This is where you put the dogs in the trunk and you fight.

Janette Reever:

Well for, for this to happen, um, for actual dog fighting, the, the

Janette Reever:

pit has to be 14 by 14 up to 20 by 20, it's a spectator sport, the dogs

Janette Reever:

have to have mo room to move around.

Janette Reever:

So it just doesn't make sense.

Janette Reever:

If something doesn't make sense such as bait dogs, trunking, then,

Janette Reever:

then it, it just, it's not real.

Janette Reever:

So the media dubbed this as the Samson and Delilah.

Janette Reever:

Um, these dogs were, were used for fighting when in all actuality,

Janette Reever:

um, in in organized dog fighting, these dogs are fought male to male,

Janette Reever:

female to female at an exact weight.

Janette Reever:

So with these dogs, not only were these different sex, but different sizes.

Janette Reever:

And what happened was this individual was transporting his

Janette Reever:

dog back to, uh, back to Tennessee.

Janette Reever:

And so one of the, the females had died and the male, he was gonna try and patch

Janette Reever:

up and he was going to use him again for breeding and then for future fighting.

Janette Reever:

So what dog fighters have started to do now, and we discovered in 2016,

Janette Reever:

Is that the, I use this term loosely.

Janette Reever:

The gentleman thing to do is if I'm hosting a dog fight, and

Janette Reever:

if, if your dog dies, you're not allowed to take your dog with you.

Janette Reever:

We, um, I've got a, a pit, I'm gonna dispose of the dogs.

Janette Reever:

And if you have a dog that's really messed up, um, and you're, you're not, you're

Janette Reever:

gonna end up culling this dog anyway, I will have a hanging pole outside and I

Janette Reever:

will put everybody's dog out there and hang them, take them down the next day.

Janette Reever:

So trunking is one again that the media, um, capitalized on and people

Janette Reever:

believe it because it's in the media.

Janette Reever:

They're saying, oh my gosh, of course they're trunking.

Janette Reever:

There has never been a confirmed case of trunking.

Janette Reever:

There has never been one, um, that has happened.

Janette Reever:

The problem when you see people talk about trunking, bait dogs, or feeding,

Janette Reever:

feeding dogs gunpowder, Is that you have these street level dog fighters

Janette Reever:

that hear this and they're like, oh, okay, so this is the new trend.

Janette Reever:

This is what I'm gonna start to do.

Janette Reever:

And that's what happens is it gives people ideas and then when, and the worst

Janette Reever:

thing also is if you go to court and you believe this is true and you testify in

Janette Reever:

a case and you get discredited and then you have no credibility in the courts.

Janette Reever:

So trunking is, is another huge myth that has just been,

Janette Reever:

been way too long in the media.

Janette Reever:

And it's unfortunate.

Janette Reever:

We're trying to get people where, you know, where we've, where it's no

Janette Reever:

longer that other people are using it.

Janette Reever:

Um, we're trying to dispel all the myths out there.

Dr. G:

Another myth is the whole filing their teeth.

Dr. G:

Right?

Dr. G:

So what can you tell us about that?

Janette Reever:

So Dr.

Janette Reever:

Melinda Merck, she's the author of two books on veterinary Forensics.

Janette Reever:

And she actually talked about that in her second book.

Janette Reever:

And oftentimes, and again, I used to believe it up until I started

Janette Reever:

investigating full-time, I used to see these dogs and I would think, oh my

Janette Reever:

gosh, their, their teeth were filed down and they are used for bait dogs.

Janette Reever:

And, but when you look at virtually any dog who is either chained outside

Janette Reever:

or is in a very barren environment, maybe they're, they, they're, they've

Janette Reever:

just got rocks and a doghouse.

Janette Reever:

Dogs become frustrated 'cause they're very social animals,

Janette Reever:

especially when they're chained.

Janette Reever:

It's an unnatural form of confinement.

Janette Reever:

So the dogs will start to bite on, on rocks.

Janette Reever:

They'll chew on rocks, they'll chew on their dog house, they'll start to

Janette Reever:

chain chew dog fighters, um, oftentimes will post and they'll say, need help.

Janette Reever:

Um, just put my boy out in the chain.

Janette Reever:

And he's starting to chain chew.

Janette Reever:

So what happens is, is when they're chewing on these chains and

Janette Reever:

they're pulling on them, they're literally eroding away at the tooth.

Janette Reever:

And so when you look at it, the pulp is not exposed because it's a

Janette Reever:

gradual, um, erosion of the teeth.

Janette Reever:

Kinda like if you grind your teeth, how the teeth will get down to nubs.

Janette Reever:

So, that'll happen in dog fighting.

Janette Reever:

We'll see that very, very commonly, especially when the dogs after,

Janette Reever:

usually they retire around six to eight, very short life that

Janette Reever:

they're used for in, in the pit.

Janette Reever:

But you'll very commonly see, someone will say, lost a cutter.

Janette Reever:

She's used for retirement.

Janette Reever:

So, um, what this means is, either she lost a canine tooth,

Janette Reever:

either in a fight or either from chain chewing, and she loses it.

Janette Reever:

But it literally looks like the teeth are filed until you open up

Janette Reever:

that mouth and you see that it, it's ground down and the pulps not exposed.

Janette Reever:

Unlike if you were to file the teeth, the pulp would be exposed

Janette Reever:

'cause it's not a gradual, erosion.

Janette Reever:

The other thing is, is that, with, uh, the, the bait dog myth with filing down

Janette Reever:

the teeth, the dog's mouth is gonna hurt.

Janette Reever:

The dog's not gonna bite back.

Janette Reever:

It just makes absolutely no sense to file this down.

Janette Reever:

But again, there's scientific proof on the chain.

Janette Reever:

Chewing and Dr.

Janette Reever:

Merck's manual, um, her second edition,

Dr. G:

and dogs, even when they have teeth that are worn down,

Dr. G:

their bite is still gonna hurt.

Dr. G:

So they're still gonna inflate some damage.

Dr. G:

Right, right.

Dr. G:

So it doesn't really make sense to just file him down because they're

Dr. G:

still gonna gonna cause some problems.

Janette Reever:

Right?

Janette Reever:

Yeah.

Janette Reever:

Um, as a matter of fact Ed Faron, one of his, uh, he's a two time convicted

Janette Reever:

dog fighter and one of his dogs, um, uh, his name escapes right now.

Janette Reever:

I think it might have been Vader, but.

Janette Reever:

Someone, um, uh, came to purchase a dog from, from Ed Faron, and he

Janette Reever:

laughed about this old dog on a chain and he said, let your dog go.

Janette Reever:

So he let one of his, his younger dogs that he brought there for breeding.

Janette Reever:

Um, anyway, he let the dogs go and his old dog with virtually no teeth killed

Janette Reever:

his opponent, killed the, the other dog.

Janette Reever:

This was just while he was on the chain.

Janette Reever:

So, It makes no sense, um, to, to, you know, to do that.

Janette Reever:

And typically you only see this on dogs that are on chains.

Janette Reever:

And, and I encourage anybody, if you see a dog that's on a chain, especially if

Janette Reever:

you're animal control, you're probably aware of this, but lift up those lips and

Janette Reever:

you'll see either on the front, the teeth are, are worn down, um, or on the sides.

Janette Reever:

It may just be one side where the dog is just so bored that

Janette Reever:

they start chewing on chains.

Janette Reever:

They chew on their doghouse rocks and it wears down those teeth.

Janette Reever:

And sometimes it causes wave mouth, where you'll see it's kind of like a

Janette Reever:

wavy motion, um, where they chew it.

Janette Reever:

Most of my dogs are rescued from situations where it was very barren,

Janette Reever:

um, or they were on chains and, um, most of them have the chain chain,

Janette Reever:

you know, the, the worn teeth.

Dr. G:

So we talked about how the street fighters will kind of like meet wherever,

Dr. G:

but these organized fighters are going to have more of a known ring that they are.

Dr. G:

So how are those things set up?

Janette Reever:

So if, um, it, it depends on where you're gonna be matching a dog.

Janette Reever:

Um, say that I live, um, I live in South Carolina and you live in, in

Janette Reever:

Ohio, so you may know of somewhere and you're gonna put out the word

Janette Reever:

and say 38 pound female, east Coast.

Janette Reever:

So what you're saying is, is you have a 38 pound female that

Janette Reever:

you're willing to fight and you're looking to match on the east coast.

Janette Reever:

So you may know somebody that's got an established area where, um, where we

Janette Reever:

can bring six people each side, meaning that I can bring six people and you

Janette Reever:

can bring six people, or you may know of a, a, a place where it's out in

Janette Reever:

the field where you rent the property.

Janette Reever:

And at any time, you know, you can call the farmer and say, Hey, we wanna use

Janette Reever:

your barn, um, and he'll let you use it.

Janette Reever:

And so basically, um, that's a set location.

Janette Reever:

Or it may be somewhere where, um, we know there's a lot of heat in the area.

Janette Reever:

We don't trust the people that's been hosting fights.

Janette Reever:

So we may, um, we may set up something, may get a, a temporary, um, location,

Janette Reever:

fight the dogs in a basement somewhere.

Janette Reever:

Maybe it's an abandoned house.

Janette Reever:

And we know that, um, that the, the guy that patrols the area, we know that he's

Janette Reever:

not gonna come around from 12 to six.

Janette Reever:

He's, he's, you know, in the other side of the, the county or whatever.

Janette Reever:

And you may fight them there, but there are definitely areas, um, again,

Janette Reever:

going back to the 367 case from, um, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, et cetera.

Janette Reever:

Um, we knew that Donnie Anderson was providing set locations for years.

Janette Reever:

And with this, he had an established dog fighting pit.

Janette Reever:

He had multiple pits actually set up.

Janette Reever:

He had someone at the gate that would take in the money as they come in.

Janette Reever:

He had that service where if your dog, um, if you didn't wanna take your

Janette Reever:

dog home, you're gonna cull your dog.

Janette Reever:

He would have dogs.

Janette Reever:

He would put on the, the, uh, hanging line.

Janette Reever:

Um, he had places to dump the dogs.

Janette Reever:

Um, very recently we worked on a case for an individual, um, worked at a mortuary.

Janette Reever:

So after hours, he would turn off security cameras.

Janette Reever:

Bring in a small group of people and they knew he would

Janette Reever:

get whatever the entry fee was.

Janette Reever:

It was, I think it was $50 per person.

Janette Reever:

And then he would take any bodies if any of the dogs died, or they didn't

Janette Reever:

want the dog, throw it into the, um, throw it into the incinerator.

Janette Reever:

So the poor dog's in there.

Janette Reever:

So, um, again, dog fighting can happen anywhere.

Janette Reever:

It is so quiet.

Janette Reever:

And what usually gives us away is large numbers of people cheering,

Janette Reever:

um, or, uh, seeing dogs being carried out, um, that type of thing.

Janette Reever:

But you don't need a lot of space.

Janette Reever:

14 by 14 is a sanction size pit, so it's really not that big.

Janette Reever:

And it can be, you know, you can have a collapsible pit, take four sides, put

Janette Reever:

carpeting down, you pull those sides down, you roll up your carpet, and it

Janette Reever:

can go right back to a normal backyard.

Dr. G:

We were talking about behavior wise, how these

Dr. G:

dogs tend to be really nice.

Dr. G:

I was talking a few weeks back with Dan Ettinger, host of

Dr. G:

the Animal Control report.

Dr. G:

He has an awesome podcast that it's primarily directed towards animal control

Dr. G:

officers, but themes for everybody.

Dr. G:

And he was discussing about people that shoot dogs, right?

Dr. G:

So kind of the how unnecessary in his eyes, and honestly in my

Dr. G:

eyes it is to, to shoot a dog.

Dr. G:

Like is there ever a reason to to shoot a dog?

Dr. G:

And I would think like some of, some people that think, think about these pit

Dr. G:

bulls from dog fighting and then pit bulls because they're used for dog fighting.

Dr. G:

They think that there are these like just horribly behaved aggressive dogs.

Dr. G:

Um, that, you know, that's kind of where, where you end up.

Dr. G:

So what is your, your thoughts on that as far as behavior?

Dr. G:

Their, their natural aggression, and do you think that there's

Dr. G:

ever a need or a dog so aggressive that you would have to shoot it?

Janette Reever:

Well, I can tell you when I went through the police academy

Janette Reever:

in 2003, um, when we went through, we were, it was a, a five month program

Janette Reever:

and we had 30 minutes that was, that was equated that we had animal training.

Janette Reever:

And that 30 minutes was, was responding to do, uh, to a barking dog complaints.

Janette Reever:

There was nothing in there about reading a dog's body language, absolutely nothing.

Janette Reever:

Of course, I was animal control at the time, and I had a fit about it.

Janette Reever:

I was constantly saying, you know, the, the state mandate question

Janette Reever:

would be if a dog was to charge you, what is the proper response?

Janette Reever:

And the state mandate for the Commonwealth of Virginia at the time was to eliminate

Janette Reever:

the threat by shooting the dog.

Janette Reever:

That it didn't say if it was a chihuahua, it didn't say if it was a,

Janette Reever:

you know, huge Mastiff, if the dog was aggressive, that was what the mandate was.

Janette Reever:

So I think a lot of these comes down to lack of training

Janette Reever:

on law enforcement's part.

Janette Reever:

And I'm not saying that law enforcement, of course it's not

Janette Reever:

bad, but I'm saying that that.

Janette Reever:

Oftentimes these smaller departments don't get the training they need.

Janette Reever:

And also when law enforcement goes, say, if it's for, um, they're, they're

Janette Reever:

tracking someone that is armed, um, you know, someone along those lines is

Janette Reever:

that you can get almost like a tunnel vision where sitting back you can say,

Janette Reever:

why didn't he get a fire extinguisher?

Janette Reever:

Why didn't he, you know, he heard the dog toenails coming.

Janette Reever:

Why didn't he put a foot on the door to stop the door from opening?

Janette Reever:

And there's so many things.

Janette Reever:

Um, what I think is, is wonderful now is that there's so many departments

Janette Reever:

that is taking, taking the necessary steps to train their officers.

Janette Reever:

Um, several years ago, the uh, animal Farm Foundation, In conjunction with

Janette Reever:

the Chicago Police Department and Department of Justice, they did an entire

Janette Reever:

section on training law enforcement.

Janette Reever:

It's a, um, it's an internet, uh, format based, and it's in there on, and it shows

Janette Reever:

you, when you walk up to a dog, like you'd walk up to a person, you're very,

Janette Reever:

you got a, you know, you're very frontal, you're very authoritative, you stand up

Janette Reever:

straight, um, you kind of square off with the person talking with them, and then

Janette Reever:

the instructor, Ian Dunbar says, okay, now step back and approach this dog.

Janette Reever:

Slightly turned, you know, basically contrary to what you're taught on how to

Janette Reever:

approach a suspect and the difference.

Janette Reever:

So I think that is a tremendous, um, a tremendous help there.

Janette Reever:

Um, I have to be honest, sometimes I read about these reports and

Janette Reever:

I just get sick to my stomach.

Janette Reever:

You know, it was just, it's, uh, there's, there's no excuse.

Janette Reever:

Other times I can understand from law enforcement perspective, um,

Janette Reever:

but I do think that the owners also need to be held accountable when

Janette Reever:

these dogs are running at large.

Janette Reever:

Whether the dogs are quote unquote aggressive or not.

Janette Reever:

The point is, is is the perception, uh, people call in this dog

Janette Reever:

almost attacked my child.

Janette Reever:

You know, it gives a heightened sense of alertness and I think that the

Janette Reever:

owners also should be held accountable when a dog is at large, um, you

Janette Reever:

know, be held in account for that.

Janette Reever:

There's certain breeds that are always gonna have a stigma.

Janette Reever:

Um, you know, any kind of pit bull breeds, Dobermans, Rottweilers, certain breeds.

Janette Reever:

Unfortunately, we're gonna have that stigma and people are gonna walk

Janette Reever:

on the other side of the street.

Janette Reever:

And, and I think you need to take a a, uh, I know with some of the dogs

Janette Reever:

I have, I take a much, um, I, I'm very, very cautious with my dogs

Janette Reever:

because I know of their perception.

Janette Reever:

So I'm very, very cognizant of other people.

Janette Reever:

If I see a small dog, even though my big dogs live with tiny little dogs, I still

Janette Reever:

walk on the other side of the street.

Janette Reever:

I try and just be a good pet owner.

Janette Reever:

I think that's what everybody needs to, to focus on and.

Janette Reever:

Um, also is to make contact with law enforcement and especially if you're

Janette Reever:

animal control humane officer, do free training for your police officers.

Janette Reever:

They would greatly appreciate it.

Janette Reever:

Um, something simple as an umbrella, or if you know you're going to a person's

Janette Reever:

house and you know that they've got nasty dogs, or you know, this guy's a history

Janette Reever:

of flinging, open his door and his dog charges out at you barking and, and

Janette Reever:

causing a scene, then you know that you should bring animal control or maybe bring

Janette Reever:

treats or, or do something to deflect that dog, that it's not only muscle memory

Janette Reever:

to go for your gun and shoot the dog.

Dr. G:

And we have to, we have to keep in mind the fact that not

Dr. G:

everybody grows up with dogs, right?

Dr. G:

Like we're used to working with dogs, we're used to seeing dogs.

Dr. G:

So like at my work, we deal with a lot of dogs that are farm dogs,

Dr. G:

some dogs that are aggressive dogs.

Dr. G:

So they come into the, into the unit to have surgery.

Dr. G:

And some of them want us dead.

Dr. G:

I mean, that's the best way to say it, but I've never felt in a way to

Dr. G:

where, oh my God, like I, I really need something to hurt this dog, or whatever.

Dr. G:

Like, there's always a way, and it is about reading the dog's body language.

Dr. G:

I mean, that is a, that is a really great point.

Dr. G:

It's like, if you know that the dog is scared, if the dog is like growling

Dr. G:

at you or showing you his teeth, you're not gonna keep moving forward.

Dr. G:

You're gonna take a step back and then you're gonna think and rethink your

Dr. G:

situation and try to figure it out.

Dr. G:

I think that, uh, that's one of the thing missing in a lot of these cases is

Dr. G:

that it's just like, let's move forward instead of thinking the, the process out.

Dr. G:

And I like how you say, you know, like, bring in an animal control officer,

Dr. G:

you know there are animals and you know that you're not prepared for it.

Dr. G:

Bring an ACO that perhaps may have a, even if it's needed, a catch pole or, or some

Dr. G:

way to, to help with controlling the dog.

Dr. G:

So it doesn't get to, to that point.

Dr. G:

'cause unfortunately there are too many stories of good dogs that are shot just

Dr. G:

because the dog's just being a dog and.

Dr. G:

As you said, because the owner is just not being a good owner and

Dr. G:

thinks, oh, my dog is great with everybody, so it doesn't need a leash.

Dr. G:

It doesn't need to be next to me.

Dr. G:

You know, I'm just gonna leave it, leave it be.

Dr. G:

You don't know what your, how your dog's gonna react in situations.

Dr. G:

Plus you also don't know how another dog is gonna react.

Dr. G:

Uh, another issue that we see is like these little dogs that see a pitbull

Dr. G:

and then they're just like growling

Dr. G:

and barking and attacking like it's gonna eat the pitbull.

Dr. G:

And I tell them, I look those little dogs in the eyes and I tell

Dr. G:

them, this is how you die someday.

Dr. G:

'cause this is not okay for you to be doing that.

Dr. G:

And, you know, and then if that little dog attacks the pitbull and keeps going

Dr. G:

and going and going, and then the pit bull just reacts, the little dog is

Dr. G:

gonna be in the losing end of that.

Dr. G:

Right?

Dr. G:

But who's gonna get, be at fault is gonna be the big dog because the big

Dr. G:

dog won the fight, even though the little dog is the one that started it.

Dr. G:

So if you are a good conscientious owner, you protect your dog from the

Dr. G:

dangers that are, that are around.

Dr. G:

Right.

Dr. G:

I, one of the things in, in Ohio, little by little we're starting to see B S L be

Dr. G:

removed, which is to me super important.

Dr. G:

So can you tell people kind of what B S L is about, what it means and why it's not?

Dr. G:

Okay.

Janette Reever:

Sure.

Janette Reever:

So, BSL stands for breed specific legislation, and this is where

Janette Reever:

a certain categories of dogs are targeted for being aggressive or, you

Janette Reever:

know, not allowed, um, in the area.

Janette Reever:

Um, I give an example.

Janette Reever:

I know that, uh, a lot of places in Ohio, started repealed out, which

Janette Reever:

is outstanding, is that some dogs are labeled as pit bulls, or they're

Janette Reever:

labeled as, as, um, uh, massive type dogs that are not allowed.

Janette Reever:

In Prince George's County in Maryland, they've had a pit bull ban for decades,

Janette Reever:

uh, since back in, I wanna say 90, 94, 95.

Janette Reever:

It's, it's been on there for decades.

Janette Reever:

But, uh, they have an entire section that's dedicated to the, um, that's

Janette Reever:

dedicated to pit bull type dogs.

Janette Reever:

And there has been several people that have fought this and had

Janette Reever:

their dogs DNA tested, and the dogs aren't even pit bulls.

Janette Reever:

They're not even pit bull types, whether they're catahooulas, whether, you know,

Janette Reever:

some dogs just have that appearance.

Janette Reever:

So breed specific legislation is just another form of racism

Janette Reever:

because you're categorizing, uh, something of how they look.

Janette Reever:

Um, every dog is different.

Janette Reever:

Every dog has their own personality and should be treated as an individual.

Janette Reever:

So we at HSUS emphatically opposed breed specific legislation.

Janette Reever:

It should be, um, for the dogs, if you're so worried about dogs being

Janette Reever:

aggressive or running at large.

Janette Reever:

Some of the things that you desperately should look into is anti chaining

Janette Reever:

because chaining a dog makes 'em.

Janette Reever:

Much more aggressive.

Janette Reever:

Um, when the dog breaks off the chain and someone tries to get

Janette Reever:

'em back on or approaches the dog, the first thing he thinks is,

Janette Reever:

I'm not going back on that chain.

Janette Reever:

So, um, oftentimes when you look at these dogs, these fatal dog attacks and

Janette Reever:

and stuff, it's um, for example, Diane Whipple with the two Presa Canaries.

Janette Reever:

Um, the Presa of dogs.

Janette Reever:

I mean, that was, that was absolutely horrific what happened to that poor woman.

Janette Reever:

Not only that, but leading up to it, because it was the people's ownership

Janette Reever:

of these dogs and lack of control and allowing these dogs to intimidate, um,

Janette Reever:

intimidate the, the neighbors and law enforcement having their hands tied,

Janette Reever:

that woman died a horrific death.

Janette Reever:

And that's what we see is oftentimes it's, it's bad dog owners that, um,

Janette Reever:

either raise the dogs to be aggressive, to be, for lack of a better term,

Janette Reever:

like junkyard dogs or watch dogs.

Janette Reever:

And they are aggressive towards the dogs and or they're chained and the

Janette Reever:

children constantly go by taunt the dogs.

Janette Reever:

The dog gets off the chain or gets outta that fence one day,

Janette Reever:

and that's when tragedy strikes.

Janette Reever:

So it's, it's heartbreaking.

Janette Reever:

It's absolutely heartbreaking for the victims, for the dogs, and especially

Janette Reever:

for the families that are excellent family, um, who love their companions,

Janette Reever:

and then they get their animal taken away because of an appearance.

Dr. G:

I always tell people it is definitely like the individual dog, right?

Dr. G:

One of the issues that I have with some of the pit bull advocates will say

Dr. G:

that, oh, you, you know, there are no

Dr. G:

breed specific characteristics for these dogs.

Dr. G:

And I think that that is a disservice because we are trying to take it all

Dr. G:

the way to the other extreme and we'll say, you know, these, these are, these

Dr. G:

characteristics can not be attributed to pitbulls or pitbull type dogs.

Dr. G:

But then we'll say, don't have a husky in an apartment because it runs a lot

Dr. G:

and it, and it does this and the other, you know, dalmatians or whatever, or

Dr. G:

Rottweilers or even chihuahuas, like anybody thinks about a biting dog

Dr. G:

and immediately the first word that comes outta somebody is chihuahua.

Dr. G:

Right?

Dr. G:

So there are trait characteristics for these dogs.

Dr. G:

I mean, a lot of them are prey driven.

Dr. G:

Um, so it's important to be careful as far as having them in a house

Dr. G:

with small dogs or cats or even kids that are running around.

Dr. G:

But it depends on the individual, because I have friends that have pitties with

Dr. G:

cats and the cats rule the pitties, right?

Dr. G:

Um, so.

Dr. G:

It's going to, you know, people that are advocates for the breed need to be

Dr. G:

honest and transparent about these dogs.

Dr. G:

'cause the worst thing that can happen is to try to adopt the dog out and hide

Dr. G:

the fact that there are triggers, right?

Dr. G:

And then a trigger happens and then this dog hurts a child.

Dr. G:

And who is that gonna hurt?

Dr. G:

It's hurting the child.

Dr. G:

It's hurting the family that's never gonna wanna pit bull ever in their life.

Dr. G:

And it's hurting that dog that's probably going to get destroyed because the

Dr. G:

information was not, was not given out.

Dr. G:

You know, I, I have very strong feelings about the whole concept of, or the

Dr. G:

appearance of the no kill, just in that.

Dr. G:

We are trying to make it sound like no animal should be euthanized.

Dr. G:

And in a perfect world, absolutely, we should try to help every

Dr. G:

single animal that we can.

Dr. G:

But I see shelters and rescues that have these aggressive dogs and they're

Dr. G:

keeping them in cages and they're keeping them for so long, and then the

Dr. G:

dogs are getting even more crazy, and then they hide some of the behavioral

Dr. G:

problems before, you know, sending them to somewhere to potentially be dangerous.

Dr. G:

I mean, it, we have to do them, uh, a good service by saying the good characteristics

Dr. G:

of the breed, the things that we need to look for the breed, and then letting

Dr. G:

people make an educated decision on it.

Dr. G:

Like, not lie one way or the other.

Janette Reever:

Right, exactly.

Janette Reever:

And, and, and when you brought up the, the no kill, there's a.

Janette Reever:

Um, huge city, um, in the United States.

Janette Reever:

I won't say which city it is, but they are now quote unquote no kill.

Janette Reever:

And they're, the shelter should, I think it was 250 dogs.

Janette Reever:

They're up to almost 700 dogs.

Janette Reever:

There's dogs that are in the hallway that are in crates.

Janette Reever:

They get walked once a week.

Janette Reever:

They get moved from a clean crate to the dirty.

Janette Reever:

And it is all, all a types of animals imaginable.

Janette Reever:

And it is so unethical and so wrong for these animals.

Janette Reever:

And like you said, some of 'em are there for years and years until they

Janette Reever:

absolutely just start to deteriorate.

Janette Reever:

They start to self mutilate.

Janette Reever:

It.

Janette Reever:

We're doing a gross disservice to these poor animals.

Janette Reever:

So it's a, it's a really good point.

Janette Reever:

And being, um, when we send dogs to placement partners, whether it's from

Janette Reever:

the meat dog industry in Korea, or they're fighting dogs or, or rescue

Janette Reever:

a fighting dog situation, we will be very upfront where they came from.

Janette Reever:

Any kind of observations and sometimes you just can't, their, their dogs are

Janette Reever:

either so, Mentally damaged, um, that the dog is either gonna be a danger

Janette Reever:

of placed because he has to be managed so intensely or is just, it would

Janette Reever:

just be cruel to, to keep this dog.

Janette Reever:

'cause they've just been through so much trauma in their life.

Janette Reever:

And sometimes that's the only humane option is euthanasia.

Janette Reever:

And even if you have to euthanize a dog that you save, um, for that type of

Janette Reever:

situation, the fact that that dog didn't linger and die in horrific conditions

Janette Reever:

that he was given, the chance was shown love, was given respect and kindness.

Janette Reever:

And in the end he was, he received peace.

Janette Reever:

That's what you need to focus on.

Janette Reever:

And I think that's one of the hardest things as a rescuer is you feel like, like

Janette Reever:

you failed the dog, which is not true.

Janette Reever:

You can never feel that way.

Janette Reever:

You rescued that dog from a horrific situation and sometimes

Janette Reever:

that's the only humane option.

Dr. G:

Yeah, I'm working on a, on a case currently that I cannot give a

Dr. G:

lot of details, but it is a rescue that took in a lot of animals, uh, a

Dr. G:

lot of dogs that were coming from kill facilities and they're trying to save

Dr. G:

these dogs from getting euthanized, and they just kept giving them to

Dr. G:

this rescue, and the dogs ended up dying and they died a horrific death.

Dr. G:

So, you know, it's, we have to be really aware.

Dr. G:

We're just passing the buck, right?

Dr. G:

Like, we don't wanna be responsible for euthanizing an animal, so then

Dr. G:

we wanna live in this fairytale that we took it somewhere else, and

Dr. G:

we, you know, save them from death.

Dr. G:

Sometimes it's kinder to be there with them and give them treats and give

Dr. G:

them love and be with them at that time that send them to an unknown fate.

Dr. G:

And somewhere, I mean, I, in researching that one case, I started looking

Dr. G:

up to see how big this problem is.

Dr. G:

And it's a completely other podcast, um, because there

Dr. G:

are so many so-called rescues.

Dr. G:

And I think that most of 'em start with great intentions and

Dr. G:

then they get overwhelmed and they, they just become hoarders.

Dr. G:

And then they become, they get to that point where they don't know

Dr. G:

what to do and they, they don't have anywhere for these animals to

Dr. G:

go and then they just let them die.

Dr. G:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. G:

And it's just something, something horrible

Dr. G:

. So, if anybody, uh, if animal control

Dr. G:

uh, has a case, a potential dog fighting case, or a concern or anything like that,

Dr. G:

how can they get a hold of you guys to, if they need help with an investigation?

Janette Reever:

So there's, there's two emails that they can reach us at.

Janette Reever:

The first one is animal cruelty@humanesociety.org.

Janette Reever:

Humane Society spelled out, or they can email me directly and

Janette Reever:

is my first initial, last name.

Janette Reever:

So it's j r e e V as in Victor, e r at HSI stands for humane

Janette Reever:

society international.org.

Janette Reever:

Um, you can also contact me either by text or phone at 240-252-8400

Janette Reever:

and any information that is provided is 100% confidential.

Janette Reever:

I do not even provide this, or we do not even provide it to law

Janette Reever:

enforcement unless you give the, okay, if you do give information, it

Janette Reever:

would be obvious that it came for you.

Janette Reever:

Say that your, your, it's, uh, your neighbor and it, it would be pretty

Janette Reever:

obvious just from what you observed and from, from the vantage point.

Janette Reever:

Then we just have to find a backdoor to get the information and to make

Janette Reever:

it, whether it's on Facebook, social media, find, um, the evidence there,

Janette Reever:

and then go to law enforcement.

Janette Reever:

So, um, on that also, we do offer a up to a $5,000 reward for any

Janette Reever:

information leading to the arrest and or conviction for animal fighting.

Janette Reever:

And all we need is a letter from law enforcement on their letterhead,

Janette Reever:

basically stating that your information led to, led to the arrest

Janette Reever:

or conviction for animal fighting.

Dr. G:

Excellent.

Dr. G:

So thank you so much for being part of this episode.

Dr. G:

I think it has been really educational, both for people that are involved in

Dr. G:

law enforcement, but also for people that are curious about what dog

Dr. G:

fighting is and could dog fighting be going on in, in their backyard.

Dr. G:

Uh, and if anybody out there has any questions, any, concerns, any

Dr. G:

comments about what we have discussed, you can go to our Facebook page on

Dr. G:

animal welfare junction and uh, find a, find this episode and leave your

Dr. G:

question in the comments and maybe we'll, uh, even include it in a future

Dr. G:

episode to, to answer the questions.

Dr. G:

Um, so thank you so very much for being here and I'll see you again

Dr. G:

soon, I'm sure for, for another case.

Dr. G:

I love working with you guys.

Dr. G:

Um, it has been, it has been great.

Dr. G:

Um, and for everybody that's listening, thank you for listening and thank you for

Dr. G:

caring.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.