Episode 19

full
Published on:

20th Jul 2023

For the Love of Primates with Tessa Cannon

Tessa Cannon, founder and director of For the Love of Primates, joins us to discuss the topic of primates as pets and in research, both conditions that lead to physical and mental health problems in this species.

Join us to learn about the needs of primates, why they need our help, and how you can be involved as a Primate Protector.

For more information on the organization, visit www.fortheloveofprimates.org

Transcript
DrG:

Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

DrG:

This is your host, Dr.

DrG:

G.

DrG:

And our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan.

DrG:

Today we are discussing primates and to talk about primates, we have

DrG:

a very good friend of mine, Tessa Cannon, who is the founder and

DrG:

director of For the Love of Primates.

DrG:

Thank you, Tessa, for joining us.

Tessa Cannon:

Hi, Dr.

Tessa Cannon:

G.

Tessa Cannon:

Thank you so much for inviting me to be on this.

Tessa Cannon:

I'm very excited to talk to you.

DrG:

I know some about your journey, but I'm sure there's some

DrG:

stuff that I don't know about.

DrG:

So, can you let people know about what your studies have been and what has

DrG:

brought you to where you are today?

Tessa Cannon:

Sure.

Tessa Cannon:

This kind of goes all the way back to when I was in college,

Tessa Cannon:

which feels like forever ago now.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, but when I was an undergrad, I got the opportunity to travel to South

Tessa Cannon:

Africa and volunteer at a primate sanctuary there, , which took in orphaned

Tessa Cannon:

baboons, , Raise them in troops and then re-release them into the wild.

Tessa Cannon:

So that kind of fostered my love of primates in the first place.

Tessa Cannon:

, I then went on to get my master's degree, , in primate conservation.

Tessa Cannon:

And , then after that kind of backtracked a little and went back to school

Tessa Cannon:

and, , became a veterinary technician.

Tessa Cannon:

, the reason that I actually became a tech was because when I went to, , this

Tessa Cannon:

organization in South Africa, They had a really, really huge need for

Tessa Cannon:

people that were volunteers, but just happened to be trained as technicians.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so I really wanted to be able to provide that skillset

Tessa Cannon:

wherever, wherever I ended up.

Tessa Cannon:

, I took a little detour for quite a while, , and just worked in regular

Tessa Cannon:

private practice as a vet tech.

Tessa Cannon:

, And then decided to go back to school to get my PhD, , which

Tessa Cannon:

I am almost done with now.

Tessa Cannon:

I've got about one more year left.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, and around that same time, founded for the love of primates.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so when I did my master's research, I worked with sanctuary primates

Tessa Cannon:

at a sanctuary here in the us.

Tessa Cannon:

, and they were all from compromised backgrounds of some kind.

Tessa Cannon:

So they had either come from, , laboratories, they had previously

Tessa Cannon:

been kept as pets and then either confiscated or surrendered.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, and I worked with them on a lot of the abnormal behaviors that

Tessa Cannon:

they were displaying and helping them kind of redirect those to

Tessa Cannon:

more species typical behaviors.

Tessa Cannon:

, and after working with them, I just kind of fell in love with working

Tessa Cannon:

with sanctuary primates and, , decided that that's where I wanted to spend

Tessa Cannon:

the rest of my life and work doing.

Tessa Cannon:

, so I, I'm currently a PhD student at Ohio State, , getting my

Tessa Cannon:

degree in anthropology, , but specifically studying primates.

Tessa Cannon:

, and then around that same time that I went back to school, founded this organization,

Tessa Cannon:

which I'm sure we'll talk lots more about.

DrG:

What is the goal and the mission of For the Love of Primates?

Tessa Cannon:

For the Love of Primates is a 501c3 nonprofit organization,

Tessa Cannon:

and we're dedicated to the care and understanding of non-human

Tessa Cannon:

primates that are used in laboratory research, used in entertainment

Tessa Cannon:

or were previously kept as pets.

Tessa Cannon:

and the ultimate goal is to create a sanctuary here in

Tessa Cannon:

central Ohio for these animals.

Tessa Cannon:

And, , we're well on our way.

Tessa Cannon:

We actually just put in an o on some land, so we're making strides

Tessa Cannon:

towards, , making that dream come true.

DrG:

What kind of primates are we looking to have in the sanctuary?

Tessa Cannon:

So we'll likely end up with mostly macaques and vervets.

Tessa Cannon:

So for people that don't really know much about primates, they're

Tessa Cannon:

kind of medium sized monkeys.

Tessa Cannon:

, and they're the most commonly used in laboratory research, especially

Tessa Cannon:

within the labs that are here in Ohio.

Tessa Cannon:

, so those are what we'll likely end up with.

Tessa Cannon:

we will create our sanctuary so that it's a little bit more versatile so that

Tessa Cannon:

we can accept other types of monkeys, other species of monkeys, just in case

Tessa Cannon:

we get any from the pet trade, we wanna be able to provide for them as well.

DrG:

This is a really cool organization and, as you well know, I don't have

DrG:

a lot of experience with primates, so that's not my, my part in the

DrG:

organization as a veterinarian, as the practicing veterinarian, but

DrG:

more , in the topic of welfare.

DrG:

Uh, but one of the things that I really like is just the, the individuals

DrG:

that are part of this board, because everybody is so smart and bring something

DrG:

very unique to the organization.

DrG:

So how did you pick the board members?

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so we have a five person board, including me and Dr.

Tessa Cannon:

G.

Tessa Cannon:

so it started fairly small.

Tessa Cannon:

I first asked a friend of mine, Maddie, to come on the board.

Tessa Cannon:

She's actually another anthropologist.

Tessa Cannon:

She's a biological anthropologist.

Tessa Cannon:

but she not only studies evolution, but she also studies bones and people.

Tessa Cannon:

So that part doesn't work in as well.

Tessa Cannon:

, but she's very, very knowledgeable about the evolutionary side of everything,

Tessa Cannon:

which we, um, our apes, we evolved alongside a lot of these species.

Tessa Cannon:

So, all of our evolution is very tied together, so she

Tessa Cannon:

brings that knowledge as well.

Tessa Cannon:

She's also the most organized person that I've ever met.

Tessa Cannon:

, so you definitely need someone like that when you're, , not

Tessa Cannon:

only starting an organization but wanting it to run smoothly.

Tessa Cannon:

, we then added on Melissa Renner, , and she has a master's in public health.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, also a very good friend of mine and she had just has this huge

Tessa Cannon:

passion for primates, um, that.

Tessa Cannon:

Like most of the people that are in the board isn't directly related to

Tessa Cannon:

their actual job, but that's okay.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, she's also very, very well connected in the nonprofit community.

Tessa Cannon:

So she brings not only that love for primates, but also the nonprofit

Tessa Cannon:

community experience to us as well.

Tessa Cannon:

She's also a business owner, so she has that knowledge too.

Tessa Cannon:

We brought in Ryan Nagle.

Tessa Cannon:

She's our community representative, and we definitely wanted to be able

Tessa Cannon:

to have a voice for the Ohio community and the animal lover community

Tessa Cannon:

throughout Ohio on our board , and that's exactly what Ryan brings.

Tessa Cannon:

And then of course our most recent ad was you, Dr.

Tessa Cannon:

G.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, and I'm just so thankful that you're a part of this organization.

Tessa Cannon:

You bring such a wealth of knowledge about animal welfare, and I think

Tessa Cannon:

that particularly what will come most in handy as we're moving forward is.

Tessa Cannon:

Just your knowledge of the like laws surrounding animal welfare cuz a lot

Tessa Cannon:

of these animals that we are gonna get from the pet trade are likely going to

Tessa Cannon:

be coming from not so great situations.

Tessa Cannon:

, so I think you're going to bring some amazing knowledge to that once we have

Tessa Cannon:

to have to deal with those things.

Tessa Cannon:

And one thing

DrG:

that is really important for the listeners to understand is that

DrG:

this is a group of people that are passionate about the welfare of primates.

DrG:

And this is also a group of people who do not own primates.

DrG:

Because that is the, kind of the, the whole point of it, it's, uh, keeping

DrG:

them safe and understanding why they're, why they're not really pet.

DrG:

Let's talk first about the research side of it.

DrG:

Um, I think that, that the people's perception of the number of primates

DrG:

in research is a little skewed.

DrG:

So can you tell us about , the reality of the number of animals and the types

DrG:

of animals that are used in research?

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, of course.

Tessa Cannon:

, so recently there have been some, , strides towards improving

Tessa Cannon:

the welfare of primates use in research, which has been great.

Tessa Cannon:

, they actually discontinued using chimpanzees in research, which were

Tessa Cannon:

one of the most commonly used primates.

Tessa Cannon:

they were the really, one of the biggest apes used in research.

Tessa Cannon:

, but since they are so closely related to us as humans, a lot

Tessa Cannon:

of people didn't really like that they were being used in research.

Tessa Cannon:

So a lot of laws got passed, and now all of those apes are being retired.

Tessa Cannon:

but plenty of monkey species are still being used in research.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, there are over a hundred thousand primates that are currently housed

Tessa Cannon:

in laboratories around the U.S.

Tessa Cannon:

, and to put that into perspective, there are less than a thousand that

Tessa Cannon:

are housed in sanctuaries like ours.

Tessa Cannon:

, and the majority that are housed as sanctuaries are these chimpanzees

Tessa Cannon:

because they're the ones that are being discontinued their use in, in research.

Tessa Cannon:

So they're the ones in need of homes right now.

Tessa Cannon:

and then most of these monkeys that are being used in research

Tessa Cannon:

simply just have nowhere to go once they are eligible for retirement.

Tessa Cannon:

so that's one of the reasons that we decided to focus specifically on monkeys

Tessa Cannon:

was because all these chimpanzees, they're already being , very, very

Tessa Cannon:

well provided for in these sanctuaries.

Tessa Cannon:

so one of the biggest needs is for monkeys that are being

Tessa Cannon:

retired from research and it is becoming more and more common.

Tessa Cannon:

a lot of researchers, laboratory technicians are really pushing for more

Tessa Cannon:

retirement, and research has actually shown that, when the researchers

Tessa Cannon:

and lab techs that are working with these animals know that they're going

Tessa Cannon:

to be retired, at the end of their research, they show improved workplace

Tessa Cannon:

morale, improved emotional wellbeing, and like, who doesn't want that for

Tessa Cannon:

the people that work for them?

Tessa Cannon:

But there is still a really huge stigma around using primates in research.

Tessa Cannon:

So a lot of places keep it pretty quiet, but unfortunately it's just a

Tessa Cannon:

reality because all of the drugs, a lot of cosmetics up until fairly

Tessa Cannon:

recently, medical treatments, medical devices, all of those things have to

Tessa Cannon:

be tested in primates before they're allowed to be released to the general

Tessa Cannon:

public and to be tested in humans.

Tessa Cannon:

And it's required by the FDA.

Tessa Cannon:

I don't see it changing any soon.

Tessa Cannon:

there have been some laws that have been recently put forth to

Tessa Cannon:

at least improve the welfare of primates while they're being used in

Tessa Cannon:

research, which we really like to see.

Tessa Cannon:

but I don't see the, like the discontinuance of primates use in research

Tessa Cannon:

isn't going to happen in our lifetime.

Tessa Cannon:

I don't, I don't think.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so it's our goal to work.

Tessa Cannon:

Instead, like working, instead of working against these labs, we really wanna work

Tessa Cannon:

in collaboration with them to improve the welfare of their primates even before

Tessa Cannon:

they come into the sanctuary setting.

Tessa Cannon:

One of the

DrG:

things that I can imagine is going to be a big issue is, I'm assuming

DrG:

that some, the majority of these primates are gonna come in and they're

DrG:

going to be relatively healthy, but behaviorally because of everything

DrG:

that they have gone through, there's going to be a period of adjustment.

DrG:

So what do you feel is going to be the biggest concerns as these guys come from

DrG:

life in research to life in a sanctuary?

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, definitely.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so it really depends on kind of what studies they're coming

Tessa Cannon:

from what they would be used to.

Tessa Cannon:

But we're going to need to be prepared for all backgrounds

Tessa Cannon:

and all of those circumstances.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so some primates used in research are trained for certain behaviors, which

Tessa Cannon:

can make, , like doing veterinary exams and things like that a little bit easier.

Tessa Cannon:

but a lot of labs don't train them for those behaviors, so they

Tessa Cannon:

can have a lot of fear, especially surrounding being isolated into

Tessa Cannon:

smaller cages, which is necessary to do any kind of veterinary exams.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so one of the things that we will definitely be putting a lot of

Tessa Cannon:

effort into doing is working with positive reinforcement training to

Tessa Cannon:

train them to first, not panic when they're in these kind of situations.

Tessa Cannon:

And second to even voluntarily present themselves for these kind of procedures

Tessa Cannon:

so that we can avoid sedation and avoid having to knock them out for every little

Tessa Cannon:

thing and remove them from their friends.

Tessa Cannon:

and so that they can voluntarily participate in these behaviors and

Tessa Cannon:

get rewarded for doing those things.

Tessa Cannon:

, besides that, a lot of primates that come from compromised backgrounds,

Tessa Cannon:

whether that be as pets or in the lab setting, anywhere that they're not just

Tessa Cannon:

wild they're going to come in with some abnormal and stereotypic behaviors.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so stereotypic behavior is any usually a repetitive thing,

Tessa Cannon:

but doesn't always have to be.

Tessa Cannon:

And it's any kind of behavior that is not normal for that species.

Tessa Cannon:

So this can be things like pacing, even hitting themselves, biting

Tessa Cannon:

themselves over grooming so much that they pull out their hair.

Tessa Cannon:

pretty much any kind of behavior that's, getting out some kind

Tessa Cannon:

of anxiety for this animal.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so a lot of the work that we'll also be doing will be to provide

Tessa Cannon:

them with different outlets for these behaviors that, um, are going

Tessa Cannon:

to promote more species, typical behaviors and make it so that they

Tessa Cannon:

don't no longer feel the need for doing these kind of stereotypic behaviors

Tessa Cannon:

because they're doing them because one of those needs isn't being met.

Tessa Cannon:

so really working towards meeting those needs and, , accommodating

Tessa Cannon:

them each as individuals will be a really, really big focus for us.

Tessa Cannon:

So the other

DrG:

side of it is going to be people that want to have as pets.

DrG:

And, , just a few days ago, a friend of mine was telling me about how she

DrG:

would love to adopt a capuchin monkey.

DrG:

And I was like, please NO!

DrG:

right?

DrG:

Because, , they're cute and I think, , a big part of the problem

DrG:

is how television and movies depict these animals as pets, and people

DrG:

don't understand that these animals are not behaving how they normally would.

DrG:

They are trained to do these behaviors, so they're really just following a script.

DrG:

So what are going to be the issues.

DrG:

Let's start with just what they don't learn as, as babies.

DrG:

What are gonna be the issues of a primate growing up without other primates?

DrG:

Growing up with humans?

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so primates are just, Right, like they have culture, and they

Tessa Cannon:

learn behaviors from their parents.

Tessa Cannon:

Just the way that we learn behaviors from our parents.

Tessa Cannon:

We learn how to feed ourselves, how to groom ourselves.

Tessa Cannon:

We learn how to socially interact with members of our own species

Tessa Cannon:

and primates are exactly like that.

Tessa Cannon:

so no matter how hard, uh, owner works, a human owner works, or how well they're

Tessa Cannon:

trying to provide for their animals.

Tessa Cannon:

They simply can't provide the same stimulation in the same environment

Tessa Cannon:

that they would in the wild with members of their own species.

Tessa Cannon:

so primates are wild animals.

Tessa Cannon:

They have very complex physical and emotional needs, and humans simply

Tessa Cannon:

cannot provide for those needs, particularly when they're being

Tessa Cannon:

kept in a home, like a regular home, like pets.

Tessa Cannon:

so even the owners that have the best intentions just simply

Tessa Cannon:

cannot provide this kind of care.

Tessa Cannon:

so this often ends up with malnourishment, anorexia.

Tessa Cannon:

they will start very cute and small, and owners will think that they have

Tessa Cannon:

a really good handle on these things.

Tessa Cannon:

But those cute little babies that they first adopt, they grow up.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, and they can become aggressive.

Tessa Cannon:

They can be unpredictable because these are wild animals.

Tessa Cannon:

They're not domesticated.

Tessa Cannon:

and they can develop these very similar, like I just said, with monkeys that

Tessa Cannon:

come from research, these abnormal and self-harming behaviors that we really

Tessa Cannon:

don't want, especially if it's an animal that we're trying to take care of.

Tessa Cannon:

We don't wanna see them harming themselves.

Tessa Cannon:

So, yeah.

Tessa Cannon:

I think that the, the biggest thing that we're trying to teach when we do

Tessa Cannon:

educational initiatives in the community is these are just not meant to be pets.

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah.

Tessa Cannon:

It's

DrG:

really important for them to, to learn from.

DrG:

Is their parents, like about how long do babies spend with the,

DrG:

with their moms as they're growing?

DrG:

How long is

Tessa Cannon:

that bond?

Tessa Cannon:

, so for some species that bond is lifelong.

Tessa Cannon:

so a lot of species are matrilineal, which means that the females all stay

Tessa Cannon:

together and then the males will spend maybe four or five years until they reach

Tessa Cannon:

sexual maturity and then they will leave.

Tessa Cannon:

, and other bo um, other types, that's the other way around where the males

Tessa Cannon:

will kind of all stick together and sometimes the females will move, but

Tessa Cannon:

they're at least spending at least.

Tessa Cannon:

3, 4, 5, if not more years with their parents to be able to bond, to be

Tessa Cannon:

able to learn those social cues and how to act and how to be a primate.

Tessa Cannon:

And when they're raised in captivity, especially in breeding situations,

Tessa Cannon:

they're typically removed from their mothers almost immediately, because they.

Tessa Cannon:

Breeders want to hand rear these animals because it's going to

Tessa Cannon:

make them seem the most tame.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so they'll end up removing them.

Tessa Cannon:

They'll start bottle feeding instead of allowing them to nurse naturally

Tessa Cannon:

from their mother, and so they're first not getting the nutrition that they

Tessa Cannon:

need because they're not being nursed by a member of their own species.

Tessa Cannon:

And second, they're not learning any of those behaviors.

Tessa Cannon:

Starting at a few days, few weeks old, um, when in the wild they

Tessa Cannon:

would be learning those things up until they're sexually mature.

DrG:

When I was doing , my Master's in forensic psychology, one of the things

DrG:

that, one of the important theories that we learn about is attachment theory.

DrG:

And how attachment theory is responsible for how the interactions

DrG:

that we as humans have as children, how traumatic interactions or

DrG:

lack of proper interactions will cause problems in the future.

DrG:

For instance, like, uh, Hoarding Right.

DrG:

Uh, that, uh, most of the time hoarding behavior is because somebody

DrG:

did not receive proper affection as a child, and then they grow up and

DrG:

they, they have all these issues.

DrG:

And one of the books that I was reading on attachment disorder kept coming

DrG:

back and comparing children to monkeys.

DrG:

And they were comparing it in saying how monkeys develop this.

DrG:

Uh, they're, they have their own language with other monkeys, and then

DrG:

if they're unable to have those, those behaviors at a young age, they're

DrG:

unable to progress appropriately and grow up to be normal adult.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

So , what are gonna be the ways to, like, can we, can we work that

DrG:

out by introducing them to other monkeys or is that a damage that

DrG:

kind of, they're stuck with forever?

DrG:

I.

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah.

Tessa Cannon:

So it really depends on the individual, um, which is a complicated

Tessa Cannon:

way of saying sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.

Tessa Cannon:

through the work that I've done at other sanctuaries, I've definitely met

Tessa Cannon:

individual primates that , because they were taken away so early and lived as

Tessa Cannon:

a pet for so long, they just don't know how to interact with other primates.

Tessa Cannon:

And this can make the other animals feel very uncomfortable.

Tessa Cannon:

So much so that they can't be around each other without having some

Tessa Cannon:

kind of physical altercation that's just gonna put them in danger.

Tessa Cannon:

So our goal is to be able to intervene as quickly as possible and be able to

Tessa Cannon:

get them into at least a pair housing so that they can have that interaction.

Tessa Cannon:

Because that interaction is better than any type of enrichment that

Tessa Cannon:

we would be able to provide.

Tessa Cannon:

So we definitely will be working towards, you know, making sure that they're housed

Tessa Cannon:

with at least one other individual, if not in a group setting or whatever type of,

Tessa Cannon:

um, groups are normal for their species.

Tessa Cannon:

But unfortunately a lot of the animals that come from pet situations just end up

Tessa Cannon:

not being able to live happily with other animals, which is really up upsetting.

Tessa Cannon:

And one of the points that

DrG:

we have brought up, uh, well back is that because of all the attention

DrG:

and because of everything else, people don't realize that some of

DrG:

the species are actually endangered.

DrG:

Right.

DrG:

So what can you tell us about

Tessa Cannon:

that?

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, so, um, having pet primates or, and posting photos of them on social media

Tessa Cannon:

or seeing them in any kind of unnatural situations in the media, like in movies,

Tessa Cannon:

where they're in things like a diaper, where they're in clothing, in some kind

Tessa Cannon:

of human situation or in a human home.

Tessa Cannon:

Research has shown that the p seeing these things actually leads

Tessa Cannon:

them to believe that these animals are not endangered in the wild.

Tessa Cannon:

And most primate species are either threatened and endangered

Tessa Cannon:

high, very critical risk.

Tessa Cannon:

Every single ape species is endangered.

Tessa Cannon:

And a lot of people don't believe that because one where we were experimenting on

Tessa Cannon:

them for so long in the lab setting, and two, they see them in all of these movies.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, because it's funny, it's funny when an ape or a monkey is, dressed

Tessa Cannon:

up like that, or it's really cute if you're seeing them in a diaper

Tessa Cannon:

and they're cuddling with somebody.

Tessa Cannon:

But seeing these things actually leads people to not only believe that they're

Tessa Cannon:

not endangered, but donate less to causes that are actually helping primates in

Tessa Cannon:

the wild and helping with conservation.

Tessa Cannon:

So even if people are having these primates as pets, they can make small

Tessa Cannon:

strides to improve the welfare of primates just by not posting them and not making it

Tessa Cannon:

very public that they own these animals.

DrG:

Yeah, I went to a Jeep show and I was really annoyed because there was

DrG:

somebody with, with a small monkey, and they had it on a leash, and then they

DrG:

kept telling people, stay back, stay back.

DrG:

Well, you're bringing them in.

DrG:

You're clearly drawing attention to yourself.

DrG:

You're bringing them to a public place.

DrG:

And he was asking people to stay back because it was scaring the monkey.

DrG:

Like, why even mess with it?

DrG:

But everybody that was walking by, I'm sure that their first thought

DrG:

was, oh my God, that's so cute.

DrG:

I want one.

DrG:

Right?

DrG:

Because that's how, that's how people are.

DrG:

Where about impulse buying.

DrG:

We are about, you know, I, I gotta have it right now.

DrG:

And just not with just primates, like with any kind of animal.

DrG:

I don't think that.

DrG:

A lot of people do the proper research before bringing

DrG:

that animal into their home.

DrG:

Whether it be something as simple as dogs and not researching the breed, and then

DrG:

you are in a small apartment with a dog that wants to run around all day long and

DrG:

bark, um, to other exotics like reptiles.

DrG:

I was, uh, talking a, a bit back with, uh, with an exotics doctor

DrG:

that was saying, you know, people get these animals and they don't

DrG:

know that they have to have special.

DrG:

Temperature and humidity and food and everything else.

DrG:

It's kind of the same thing.

DrG:

I think that people see these, these primates and think that it's cool

DrG:

and it's a novelty, and then they get them and then have no idea how

DrG:

to, how to deal with them and how to properly, uh, take care of them.

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, being cute is definitely one of their biggest curses.

Tessa Cannon:

There was that viral video that I think, I don't even know, it might

Tessa Cannon:

have been 10 years ago by now.

Tessa Cannon:

That tickling slow loris video that someone had a slow loris as a pet and

Tessa Cannon:

it was like raising its arms up and being tickled the armpits and I actually

Tessa Cannon:

use that, um, like screenshots from that video a lot when I'm teaching

Tessa Cannon:

my undergraduates at Ohio State, learning about primates and their behavior because

Tessa Cannon:

that pose with their arms up for a slow loris is actually a defensive posture.

Tessa Cannon:

So the slow loris is actually the only venomous primate that lives in the us And

Tessa Cannon:

for a really long time after this video, it became so popular as a pet because.

Tessa Cannon:

Well, one, people didn't look it up to know that it was venomous and that

Tessa Cannon:

it could kill them if it bit them.

Tessa Cannon:

And two, they saw it in this really cute viral video and that

Tessa Cannon:

was just all over the internet.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so things like that ended up affecting the number that were getting

Tessa Cannon:

smuggled in through like illegal, through the illegal pet trade.

Tessa Cannon:

They ended up getting their teeth pulled out because they're venomous and if

Tessa Cannon:

they bite you then they can kill you.

Tessa Cannon:

So people just yeah, don't really do their homework for sure when they're

Tessa Cannon:

thinking about owning a primate as a pet

DrG:

And primates can cause, I mean, we'll talk a little bit about

DrG:

some of the injuries that have been reported, but there's also the concern

DrG:

about the diseases that they can give us because there's so similar

DrG:

to us and they can carry diseases that are extremely serious to us.

DrG:

So what are gonna be some of the things that primates can, can

DrG:

carry that they can make us sick?

DrG:

Yeah,

Tessa Cannon:

so primates actually can get almost every disease that humans can get.

Tessa Cannon:

So really you're just adding like another little member of your family that's going

Tessa Cannon:

to really bring you, bring you any kind of disease, especially if they're coming

Tessa Cannon:

from a situation where they weren't being, you know, taken the best care of.

Tessa Cannon:

One of the things that we will actually be doing in the sanctuary is making

Tessa Cannon:

sure that all everyone is wearing proper protective equipment, so that one, they're

Tessa Cannon:

not giving us any diseases, and two, we're not giving any diseases to them.

Tessa Cannon:

So primates, especially in zoos, were a really big risk for developing covid.

Tessa Cannon:

And actually, like they, they can easily get covid.

Tessa Cannon:

They were used to develop the Covid 19 vaccine.

Tessa Cannon:

As far as pets go and worrying about any kind of zoonotic disease, they're

Tessa Cannon:

um, one of the most major because they are so closely related to us.

DrG:

When we start talking about some of the physical risks, the

DrG:

injuries, um, I am sure that some people think, well, that's gonna be

DrG:

more like the chimpanzees, the bigger apes that are going to cause damage.

DrG:

And yeah, they can definitely cause more damage and they can kill you.

DrG:

However, these smaller guys can also cause a lot of problems.

DrG:

So do you wanna share some of the cases of small monkeys that have

DrG:

injured people significantly?

Tessa Cannon:

Sure.

Tessa Cannon:

So you were just talking about that small monkey that you saw at the Jeep Show.

Tessa Cannon:

I think you sent me a picture of it.

Tessa Cannon:

I'm pretty sure it was a capuchin.

Tessa Cannon:

At least I could, from what I could see in the photo, and capuchins are

Tessa Cannon:

one of the most frequently owned because they stay fairly small.

Tessa Cannon:

But they still have a lot of really, really sharp teeth.

Tessa Cannon:

There have been cases, there was one in New York by, for a woman who was

Tessa Cannon:

mauled by a capuchin monkey that was being kept at a lodge in New York.

Tessa Cannon:

She was left with major scarring all over her face and her cheeks.

Tessa Cannon:

There was obviously concern for rabies the same way that there's concern

Tessa Cannon:

for rabies anytime you're a bit by a dog or any other wild animal.

Tessa Cannon:

There was a three year old PA Capuchin who attacked a woman without any warning.

Tessa Cannon:

She ended up with really severe damage to one of her hands.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, and the, the pictures, oh, they just give you the shivers.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, They're, additionally even with monkeys that have had their teeth pulled,

Tessa Cannon:

because this is unfortunately very common with pet monkeys, that the breeders will

Tessa Cannon:

pull them even before they sell them to avoid all of these bites and injuries.

Tessa Cannon:

They still have pretty powerful jaws and can do a lot of damage.

Tessa Cannon:

So a woman with a macaque Monkey, so one of the, type, the species that

Tessa Cannon:

we're planning on housing, whose canine teeth had been removed, inflicted really

Tessa Cannon:

severe bruising on this woman's arm just from one single attack, even without

Tessa Cannon:

those teeth to be able to help them.

Tessa Cannon:

So these are just like a, a few cases there are hundreds reported every

Tessa Cannon:

year of people with petm monkeys that are being injured by them.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, and what's the most nerve-wracking about it is that these animals can

Tessa Cannon:

seem so sweet and get along with you so well, and you feel like they're a

Tessa Cannon:

member of your family, but they're, they're wild animals and you don't

Tessa Cannon:

know what instincts they're born with.

Tessa Cannon:

That will not go away no matter how hard you try to make them

Tessa Cannon:

seem domesticated or tame.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, and.

Tessa Cannon:

If you don't completely understand their behavior the same way another

Tessa Cannon:

monkey is going to, you're not going to be able to see those signs that they

Tessa Cannon:

may react aggressively in some way.

Tessa Cannon:

And

DrG:

one of the things is that it can take many years, right, for them

DrG:

to exhibit the negative behavior.

DrG:

Around what age do they start showing these problems, these behavioral

Tessa Cannon:

problems?

Tessa Cannon:

It's usually around the, when they start reaching sexual maturity.

Tessa Cannon:

So when they're very young, they're viewing humans like they're their parents.

Tessa Cannon:

So while you still may see some, what we would

Tessa Cannon:

as violent behavior, or behaviors that could potentially injure you.

Tessa Cannon:

A lot of this will be because they didn't learn how to play fight when

Tessa Cannon:

they were, they didn't have a parent to teach them how to play, fight,

Tessa Cannon:

or how to react when an animal is threatening them or anything like that.

Tessa Cannon:

So they're looking to humans instead for this guidance, but they don't speak

Tessa Cannon:

our language and we don't speak theirs.

Tessa Cannon:

While they have not reached, yes reached sexual maturity, they're still going to

Tessa Cannon:

be looking you for, tho looking at you for those cues and not really reacting

Tessa Cannon:

in the way that they would in the wild.

Tessa Cannon:

But once they reach sexual maturity, they have enough, not only size

Tessa Cannon:

behind them, but their biology changes, their hormone change.

Tessa Cannon:

And because they can't express these species-typical behaviors

Tessa Cannon:

that they want to express , it leads to them getting more and more

Tessa Cannon:

agitated, more and more stressed out.

Tessa Cannon:

And the more anxiety that they have in those kind of settings, then the more

Tessa Cannon:

likely they are to exhibit dangerous behaviors towards their owners.

DrG:

A lot of people get monkeys illegally.

DrG:

Is it legal to own monkeys in Ohio?

Tessa Cannon:

Unfortunately you can still own a few types of monkeys in Ohio.

Tessa Cannon:

Thankfully Ohio actually has one of the semi more strict laws about it.

Tessa Cannon:

There was that man in Zanesville , Gosh, I think about 10 years ago now, maybe

Tessa Cannon:

more, that had a bunch of exotic animals and released them and caused it

Tessa Cannon:

a huge media frenzy surrounding that.

Tessa Cannon:

And because of that, they started instituting a lot more laws around

Tessa Cannon:

what types of animals you can own.

Tessa Cannon:

But unfortunately, a lot of the small monkeys just slip through the cracks.

Tessa Cannon:

So you are legally allowed to own some small monkeys in Ohio.

Tessa Cannon:

There are states surrounding us, though, that have no laws.

Tessa Cannon:

There are no federal laws that prohibit you from keeping any kind

Tessa Cannon:

of primate as a pet , which I really hope will change sometime soon.

Tessa Cannon:

So it's really up to the individual state to be able to create these laws.

Tessa Cannon:

And even though Ohio, Ohio still does allow some, we're technically one of the

Tessa Cannon:

more strict when you're talking about what you can own throughout the U.S.

DrG:

So if somebody has a, a monkey, like not every veterinarian is going

DrG:

to be trained to, to deal with them, which is going to be a, a huge issue.

DrG:

How does somebody find a veterinarian that is trained and capable of dealing with

Tessa Cannon:

monkeys?

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, so that's really hard.

Tessa Cannon:

There are really not very many, especially in states like Ohio, where

Tessa Cannon:

it's usually illegal to own them.

Tessa Cannon:

So there are a couple, like exotic veterinarians that will see them.

Tessa Cannon:

Know of some just because I've spent so long in the veterinary community

Tessa Cannon:

in Ohio at least, but I can imagine for an, an individual owning a monkey

Tessa Cannon:

like this, they probably just don't really take them to the vet very much,

Tessa Cannon:

because there's nowhere for them to go.

Tessa Cannon:

Or if they do have to travel, they would have to travel hours to be able to find

Tessa Cannon:

somebody that is knowledgeable enough to be able to, to treat that animal.

Tessa Cannon:

So when they do end up surrendering these animals, we usually end up

Tessa Cannon:

seeing a lot of, not only behavioral, but physical illnesses, hair

Tessa Cannon:

missing, anorexia, malnourishment.

Tessa Cannon:

So a lot of these issues are what's one of the kind of tipping points to

Tessa Cannon:

get them to finally realize that they need to sur to surrender their animal.

DrG:

So if somebody has a monkey and they realize that they need to surrender

DrG:

it, or they're listening to this and realize that perhaps what they're doing

DrG:

is not the right thing, what kind of resources are there available until

DrG:

we get our sanctuary going, that they can, that they can look for help.

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah.

Tessa Cannon:

So if they are searching, they can always reach out to us and we can

Tessa Cannon:

point them in the right direction.

Tessa Cannon:

But one of the places that I've always tell people to go if they are asking

Tessa Cannon:

these kind of questions is the North American Primate Sanctuary Alliance.

Tessa Cannon:

So it's a group of sanctuaries that are dedicated to providing really,

Tessa Cannon:

really high quality care for primates.

Tessa Cannon:

There are, I believe, eight member sanctuaries right now

Tessa Cannon:

located all around the U.S.

Tessa Cannon:

And they have a section on their website where you can click if you

Tessa Cannon:

would like to retire your primate, and they can help you find placement.

Tessa Cannon:

So they're a really wonderful resource.

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, I would like to

DrG:

warn people about, you know, if you go searching on the internet or anything

DrG:

like that, you can find a lot of fake sanctuaries, people that are pre pretend

DrG:

sanctuaries or they end up being just like petting zoos and wanting to get

DrG:

these animals and just abusing them some more, not giving them what they need.

Tessa Cannon:

So very important

DrG:

to, to find a place that is a good place, that is a reputable place.

DrG:

can you let people know how to get information about, for the love of

DrG:

primates, the things that they can do to either help the organization

DrG:

to volunteer to learn more?

DrG:

How do people, how can we hook 'em up?

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, for sure.

Tessa Cannon:

So you can always start with our website, which is just

Tessa Cannon:

fortheloveofprimates.org, and that has links to pretty much everything else.

Tessa Cannon:

It's got links to our social media.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, so you can follow our journey.

Tessa Cannon:

You can sign up for our newsletter.

Tessa Cannon:

We don't spam you.

Tessa Cannon:

We only send out updates when really exciting things happen.

Tessa Cannon:

And on that website, you can also find our page to sign up to volunteer.

Tessa Cannon:

You don't need to be located in Columbus or even in Ohio to volunteer.

Tessa Cannon:

We have volunteers from all over the US that help create digital content,

Tessa Cannon:

writing blogs really doing any of.

Tessa Cannon:

Covid has made everything so accessible now over the internet that we can have

Tessa Cannon:

volunteers from anywhere, which is great.

Tessa Cannon:

Um, if you do live in Columbus or in Cleveland or anywhere in Ohio, we

Tessa Cannon:

do a lot of events around the state where we always need volunteers.

Tessa Cannon:

These can be anything from going to festivals just to represent our

Tessa Cannon:

organization and help people learn more about us, to educational initiatives that

Tessa Cannon:

we'll do with kids and with adult groups.

Tessa Cannon:

So you can sign up to be volunteer on our page as well.

Tessa Cannon:

And of course, we are nonprofit, so we thrive on donations.

Tessa Cannon:

So we have places where you can donate once, you can sign up to be a primate

Tessa Cannon:

protector, which are our monthly donors.

Tessa Cannon:

And we always will update throughout our newsletter and social media when

Tessa Cannon:

we're doing, um, kind of big fundraisers for any of our major milestones.

DrG:

Anybody that wants to learn about primate welfare and primate

DrG:

advocacy, are there any good reading resources or website

DrG:

resources that they can learn more?

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah, so I would definitely, again, send them to

Tessa Cannon:

the NAPSA, North American Primate Sanctuary Alliance website.

Tessa Cannon:

They have a lot of information on there.

Tessa Cannon:

Just a lot about the initiatives that they support.

Tessa Cannon:

There also is a wonderful organization that I recently met at the NAPSA

Tessa Cannon:

workshop that I just went to last month, which was amazing.

Tessa Cannon:

There's a group called Wild Welfare, that I hope that we'll be able

Tessa Cannon:

to work with in the future, but they have a lot of really amazing

Tessa Cannon:

resources on their website, just about

Tessa Cannon:

the welfare of any kind of animal that's typically wild

Tessa Cannon:

but is being kept in captivity.

Tessa Cannon:

And this can be anything from being in a zoo, being in a sanctuary, being

Tessa Cannon:

in a lab, any, any type of place where a w typically wild animal is

Tessa Cannon:

being kept captive for some reason.

Tessa Cannon:

And they do a lot of really amazing animal welfare work, so they have a lot of great

DrG:

resources.

DrG:

Is there anything in closing that we have forgotten to talk about or any message

DrG:

that you wanna give to the listeners?

Tessa Cannon:

I think the biggest thing is just helping us get the word out.

Tessa Cannon:

A lot of people don't know that finding housing for retired

Tessa Cannon:

primates is even an issue.

Tessa Cannon:

So the fact that there are so many being held in labs or kept as pets

Tessa Cannon:

right now that have nowhere to retire, all of the wonderful sanctuaries

Tessa Cannon:

that are a part of NAPSA are all pretty much functioning at capacity.

Tessa Cannon:

That's one of the reasons that we started this organization in the

Tessa Cannon:

first place, was just to give more space for these animals to go.

Tessa Cannon:

So not only can they help us get the word out about that, but like we were talking

Tessa Cannon:

about before, if they see any posts on that their friends are posting on social

Tessa Cannon:

media, or anything that they're sharing that is depicting an animal, a primate,

Tessa Cannon:

particularly in an unnatural setting,

Tessa Cannon:

just kind of having that polite conversation and being like, Hey,

Tessa Cannon:

did you know that posting this can help actually lead people to think

Tessa Cannon:

that these animals are endangered?

Tessa Cannon:

It'd be really cool if you took that down.

Tessa Cannon:

So that's something really small that people can do just in their

Tessa Cannon:

everyday lives to help primates.

Tessa Cannon:

Well,

DrG:

I'm looking forward to all the awesome things that we are going to

DrG:

do and to someday being there to open this sanctuary and start taking some

DrG:

of these primates that need rescued.

DrG:

Thank you for inviting me to be part of this organization.

DrG:

I think it's amazing , and we'll continue to keep people updated with

DrG:

the amazing things that will come about.

Tessa Cannon:

Yeah.

Tessa Cannon:

Thank you so much for being a part of it.

Tessa Cannon:

We're so happy to have you and I'm happy that I was able to come on here

Tessa Cannon:

and talk a little bit about it today.

Tessa Cannon:

Yes,

DrG:

absolutely.

DrG:

We need to educate people because again, education is key.

DrG:

People are ignorant sometimes because they don't know.

DrG:

So maybe we, we have informed some people that we're thinking about maybe

DrG:

getting a primate, and after listening to this, they will think twice and,

DrG:

and understand why it's not okay.

DrG:

So, so again, thank you for being here and for everybody that's listening, thank you

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for The Animal Welfare Junction

About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.