Episode 30

full
Published on:

25th Oct 2023

Domestic Violence and Pets with Anna Ludvik founder of Lucy's Project

This episode discusses sensitive topics, including animal abuse and interpersonal violence.

Domestic violence affects the whole family and unfortunately, often the family pet and animals. What most people don’t realize, is that abuse of a family pet can be one of the most serious indicators of the most at risk people and children. Perpetrators who harm animals rarely stop at animal victims and are some of the most lethal abusers. Often  people who are experiencing violence  feel like they can’t leave an animal behind to seek their own safety, either because the animal will be unsafe, hurt as  a means to control the human victims or commonly, because they are deeply bonded with the animal. Pets and animals can be a source of joy, offer a sense of purpose and be a significant comfort during hard times, for both adults and children.

Based in Australia, Lucy’s Project works to make it easier for people and animals to find safety from domestic and family violence. Founder, Anna Ludvik, shares what inspired her to pursue this work and how through education and advocacy we can make a safer place for animals and humans victim of domestic violence and other crimes.

Transcript
DrG:

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today we have an amazing guest all

the way from Australia, Anna Ludvik.

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And she is the founder and CEO

of Lucy's Project, which is a

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fantastic organization, works

with people and animals to find

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safety from domestic violence.

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So thank you so much,

Anna, for joining us today.

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Anna Ludvik: Thank you

so much for inviting me.

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It's such an honor to be on your podcast.

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Thank you.

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DrG: Well, thank you.

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Well, can you start by telling

us about yourself and what led

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you to start Lucy's project?

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Anna Ludvik: Yeah, sure.

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I mean, just to let people know, and

they're listening, there might be a

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few things in here that people find

distressing, and talking about my personal

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life, um, and trigger for, um, stillbirth,

animal abuse, always when I'm speaking.

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Um, so I've, I actually...

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I have been passionately

interested in animals and

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animal protection my whole life.

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I can't remember a time in my life where

I wasn't sort of involved in one cause

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or the other for animals, particularly

with a love, a very strong love my

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whole life with rural animals and

large animals, um, and the connection

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to, to, to the land, but I've also,

oh, you know, always had an interest.

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as well.

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Um, do you use that term in the States?

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Companion animal?

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Uh, we use the term companion animal.

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We're talking specifically

about dogs and cats.

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Um, so lots of interesting animals.

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Um, I was got involved.

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I decided to become a lawyer.

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I was training to be a lawyer and

I was doing a lot of voluntary work

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because I wanted to be an animal lawyer.

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That was my big dream.

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I was going to be an animal lawyer

and be of service to animals.

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Um, and, um, during that training,

I got very involved with the animal

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law and education project in Lismore,

which is a country town that I live

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in and in Australia, New South Wales.

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And.

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I learned about this issue that really

spoke to me, which was the intersection

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of domestic violence and animal abuse.

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And it was like this light

bulb moment hearing these other

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really passionate women in this

organization talking about this issue.

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Because for me, you know, with my long

history of, of being, um, An activist.

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The one thing I'd always heard people

say is why should we care about

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animals when humans are suffering?

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Why should we be thinking about animals?

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We've got better things to do

than to worry about these trivial

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issues while children are starving.

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And I think any animal activist will

tell you some version of that story.

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Any, any advocate for animals will tell

you how animals have been diminished

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because humans are so much more serious.

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And you know, There's a whole conversation

we could, we could have on that particular

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issue, but then I thought about this issue

of domestic violence and animal abuse.

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And I think it was an issue that

really spoke to me because it helped

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me to understand why we can't actually

separate the two, why we can't talk

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about human suffering without talking

about animal suffering and why we

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can't talk about animal suffering

without talking about human suffering.

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And it was really, I think, you

know, it's quite a, you know,

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we're a 10 year old organization.

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Now we weren't talking about things like

One Health back in those days, but I

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think that was kind of the beginning of

where people were starting to understand

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That there isn't actually that divide.

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And it was a cause that I felt

like I cared about a lot because

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it helped us to understand that

animals are not just a one day issue.

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They're a, they're a today issue.

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And I thought it was great

that these women were doing

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that work in this organization.

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Whereas I was busy with my large

animal work and um, And so I was

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pregnant with my first child, uh, Lucy.

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Um, and during that pregnancy,

unfortunately, every funding attempt

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that these, these women in animal

law and education project were

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trying to go for was knocked back.

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People said that it wasn't a real issue.

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They didn't take it seriously.

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It was minimalized.

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It couldn't be that big a deal.

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It was, it was almost mocked and derided.

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And so when it came time for Lucy

to be born, my first child, my

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first ever baby to be born, um, I

found out, um, during her birth.

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that she passed away.

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Um, and I didn't want to, I couldn't,

it was, it was, it's, it's, it's,

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you know, anyone that's lost a child

will tell you, it's just a grief that

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is very hard to find a place for.

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It's very hard to, to, to, to think of.

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How do you get through this?

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This is not what I was expecting.

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This is not where I was going.

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This, this isn't this, it just felt

so against nature and so wrong.

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And I guess for me, part of the bargaining

phase of getting through and coming to

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terms with and accepting the reality

that I was about to, to birth a child

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that would never breathe was to give that

breath and to give that life to a cause

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that had spoken to me to something that

I had never done before, that, that.

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Was that hadn't been in existence to

bring to life something that I felt

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was incredibly important and to breathe

that life into, into a cause and into a

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movement that was going to save lives.

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And I think for me there in the

hospital, as I was delivering her,

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the symmetry and the beautiful synergy

of, um, of the protection that.

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The cause spoke to, you know, to, to be

able to protect children, animals that

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I dedicated my life to and vulnerable

women because, you know, that was, was

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the most vulnerable point of my life.

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Um, I, my, my partner had

left me during the pregnancy.

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I'd been a single mom.

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I'd been preparing to

raise this child alone.

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Um, I was there having to go

through this horrific thing.

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thing.

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And I wasn't able to protect my child,

but yet, you know, I always had this

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passion, dedication for animals and

just felt like the most perfect thing.

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Like what if somebody

lived because she died?

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What if an animal was able

to live because she died?

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What if a woman was able to be

protected and to protect her children?

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Because I couldn't protect mine.

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And, um, And it just felt

like the most powerful thing

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that I could do in her name.

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And it was like, Lucy's project as a name

for the organization just felt so natural.

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So it felt like the most

natural thing in the world.

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So I often say that the project was born

at the same moment that she was born and

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came into existence in the same moment.

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And it really does.

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Inform a lot of the passion that I

have for this work that that I know

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that it is the life and it is her.

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It is.

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It is her that does this work

and it's and none of this would

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have happened without her.

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So so it remains her project.

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Um, and I'm really proud of how much

we have achieved in the 10 years since

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her birth since that very first day.

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Um, where I know that.

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This is the cause that is recognized.

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It's no longer mocked.

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It's we, we have, we have a great language

around that is, it is a movement and it's

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growing every day, which is something

I'm, I'm incredibly proud of Lucy for

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DrG: it's.

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I mean, it's so much to go

through and I cannot imagine it.

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I think that it is amazing though,

that you can honor her memory by

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helping some other people and helping

animals like that is, that is a

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beautiful thing to be able to, to do.

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Like her legacy will continue.

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Anna Ludvik: Yeah, it's,

it's, it's wonderful.

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I mean, I, I sometimes say that when

I'm looking at a crowd of people that

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have just listened to me and they've

just learned something about the

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link between domestic violence and

animal abuse, I, I look out and I feel

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like I'm looking at her, I feel like

there she is, that's what she's done.

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And it's, it is, it is beautiful.

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And it is, it is quite motivating

to get through sometimes

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some very confronting issues.

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It was, I think one of the first.

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Problems that I ever have.

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And it is getting it is

getting less thankfully.

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But one of the first problems I have when

I talk about these issues is people wonder

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why I'm talking about domestic violence

and animal abuse in the same breath.

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Why is that in the same sentence?

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What is the relationship between the two?

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Like, you know, why?

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Why are we talking about this?

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And it's one of those movements

that I always say is a secret

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in playing in plain sight.

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So The first thing that happens when

I start talking about the course,

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the first thing that happens,

people say, why are you putting

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these things in the same sentence?

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And we say, well, look in Australia,

I don't know the statistics

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specifically for the United States,

and that's a very dense population.

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I'm sure there's great variation

across the country, but

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Australia has one of the highest.

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numbers of companion animal

and pet and animal ownership

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of any country in the world.

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Sadly, concurrently, we also

have one of the highest rates

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of domestic and family violence.

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So when you think about that, it's

obvious that there's going to be

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animals that are in the family.

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that is affected by domestic

and family violence.

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And there's been some really interesting

studies in Australia about the

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massive proportion, things like that.

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83 percent of Australian households

consider the family animal to be part

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of the family, to be a family member.

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And it seems to be a platitude that we

throw around with something of abandoned

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to say, You know, the pets are my family.

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I consider, oh, you know, they're

like one of the children, or

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the term such as fur baby.

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We look at them as parts of the

family, but then suddenly when

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we talk about domestic violence,

it's like they're removed.

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But they aren't.

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And they aren't.

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And what we found is some really

disturbing statistics about 93 percent

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of people that flee a domestic and

family violence situation with their

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animals are turned away from refuges

because they have their animals with

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them, which causes, which forces either

return surrender or, or very troubling a

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return to an unsafe home or animal abuse,

which causes a form of coercive control

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or psychological abuse upon the person

that has that bond with the animals.

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We literally cannot separate

human risk or animal risk.

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In the time of domestic family violence,

when a pet is a part of a household

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and in Australia, it is the majority.

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Now that majority increases dramatically

when we start talking about regional,

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rural and remote people who tend to

have not just one animal, they tend

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to have multiple animals and often

animals of multiple different species.

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So they might have dogs and

cats and cows and chickens.

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And those animals may very well be

considered their companion animal.

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They might be farm animals that might

be that person's livelihood and means

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of survival, but that might also be the

companion chicken or the companion pig.

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And those animals are just as bonded

to them as we might in, in, in more

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urban areas, consider our dog or cat.

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And, and so there's, there's

a lot of issues around that,

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but I digress somewhat.

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I think the point that I was

coming to is first, we wonder.

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Why we can't separate domestic

violence and animal abuse.

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And as soon as I explain this to

people, it's like a light bulb moment.

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Oh, that's so obvious.

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Oh, that is so obvious.

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Oh my goodness.

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It's an aha.

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Oh yeah, you're right.

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Actually.

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Why have I never thought about it?

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And as soon as they think about

it, it's so, it's so obvious.

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It's so true.

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It's such a truism, which is so

important, it's so important that we

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continue that advocacy and awareness,

raising work so that people do continue

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to have those light bulb moments.

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The second thing that happens.

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At varying spade.

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Sometimes it's instantaneous.

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Sometimes it's a few hours later.

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Sometimes it's a couple of days later.

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People start to recall to me stories

that they have of experiences

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that they've had in their own

lives of when this has happened

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to them or when they've seen this.

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Oh, my next door neighbor.

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Oh yeah, that's right.

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When, There was a situation going on there

and he came back and he killed the turtle

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or, you know, that's right, when my sister

was going through a divorce, that's what

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happened to her dog, I was terribly sad.

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But it's almost like people

have compartmentalized the

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animal part of the story.

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They haven't actually seen how

central the animal has been.

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To the story of that person's story,

that story of domestic and family

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violence, that story of survival.

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And it's those stories that have

fallen off the primary picture that

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are sometimes the most critical.

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Um, and if, if I'm not talking too much

here, am I right to keep going, Dr.

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G?

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DrG: Yeah, no, you're good.

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You're good.

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Because yeah, it's really

important to explain to people.

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I mean, like, a lot of people don't

realize that these animals are a

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source of emotional support, right?

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So their family and people that are

suffering through these experiences,

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through these traumas, need these

animals more than, than You know,

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people that are not experiencing trauma,

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Anna Ludvik: That's precisely right, and when we start to drill down, when

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we have that first understanding, that

first initial grasp that we can't separate

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family, we can't separate that bond

instantly as soon as there's domestic and

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family violence, that we can't just say

to people, care just about your children.

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We can't do that.

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We start to drill down to the why,

and the why's are very, very critical.

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They're very critical, like you just

identified, importantly, the bonds

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that children might have with those

animals, the bonds that people might

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have with those animals, the support

that they might need, that the animal

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might have been the only witness that

anyone has ever had to the abuse.

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That animal may have suffered alongside

them, that might have been abused

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beside them, the animal might have

been a comfort to that person after.

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Abuse, that person might've been the

reason that they continue to get out

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of bed in the morning because the dog

needed a walk or the dog needed to be

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fed or the dog needed their medication.

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It gives that sense, that person a sense

that their life has value and that their

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life has meaning without which they

don't really see a reason to go on.

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It can be the most critical form of

support for, for, for a person that has

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experienced significant abuse, but there's

another person that gets left out so

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frequently, so commonly from the story.

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And I, I, I, I do hope that it's

different in the States, but I doubt

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that it is, and that's the children.

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And when a person is frequently the mother

of the family, or the female person of the

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family, not always, but most commonly, Um,

is dealing with the breakup of the family,

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the removal to a safe place and the

changing of the schools and the changing

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of addresses and the physical injuries

and the psychological injuries and the

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trauma and all of the incredible amount

of life administration that it takes.

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Who is looking after the emotional

well being of that child?

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And frequently it's the family dog or

the family cat that jumps up onto the

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child's face and licks their face and

makes them laugh, or does that silly thing

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where they chase their tail or gets the

child out into the sunshine to play ball.

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It's the animal who's soft fur the child

cries into or holds or falls asleep

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with when the mother just has nothing

left to give in that particular moment.

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There is that animal that is.

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And children are amazing at,

um, at finding moments to

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live and to fully inhabit.

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And often we find that a child will

have a recollection of very traumatic

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times by going back and remembering

just this magical moment with an animal.

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Because children are

very good at doing that.

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And I think that it's incredibly important

that we don't forget the bond that

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that child may have with the animal.

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And leaving the animal is another trauma.

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that we would inflict upon a

very traumatized child through

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an incredibly stressful period.

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The ability to keep families

together is incredibly important

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for the well being of that child.

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It's also, as I've mentioned,

very incredibly important for

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the adult survivor as well.

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Um, but I don't want to sideline children.

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I don't want them to be a footnote

because it's been too long that the

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needs of children has been a footnote.

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But the other thing that we have to

realize is for families, and this is

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a very common story where families

are forced to leave an animal behind,

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is that sometimes the animal can be

the reason that the person has to

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go back, often with their children,

to a very unsafe home environment.

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The perpetrator will often threaten

harm or cause a degree of harm to the

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animal and say that if you don't come

home, there will be more of this.

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Um, and sending them distressing

photographs or sending them distressing

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images or telling them distressing

stories about what will happen.

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All you need to do to stop

the abuse is come home.

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Um, and so often that's what happens.

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And the family are put back through

the chaos, the uncertainty, and the

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cycle of abuse again because they've

gone back to protect an animal.

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The sense of guilt and shame

and responsibility that the

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person has to that animal.

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Um, can sometimes be one of the worst

forms of abuse that that person can

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go through because it attacks them

in the areas of their compassion,

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of their empathy, of their love,

their sense of self worth and their

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sense of purpose, critical, harmful

places to hurt a human being.

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And in case that that hasn't isn't

enough to help people understand

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why we need to take this issue

so critically, this is the one.

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This is the kicker.

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This is the one that

keeps me awake at night.

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This is the one that I think we have

known and done nothing about is that

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abuse to animals is one of the three

most significant indicators of a

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perpetrator who will go on to commit

homicide will murder the human victims.

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We know that it's up there with threats

of suicide and owning a firearm.

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Particularly in Australia, where

there's not as many firearms.

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We know that those three factors

together, um, uh, heighten a person's

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risk of going on to be killed.

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We also know that perpetrators of

animal abuse are some of the most

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dangerous perpetrators in our community.

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So this is not something that

we can treat as that nice.

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furry fluffy issue on the side.

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It is impossible to remove the need

to protect animals from the need

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to protect humans because animal

protection is a human rights issue.

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And I think that we need to take those

very sober, very, very humbling issues

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to heart and start to talk about these

issues more, to take these issues

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more seriously and provide better.

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I think we have a human responsibility

to take these issues more seriously.

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DrG: Yeah, I think that some people

mistake the fact that the perpetrators

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are not necessarily abusing the

animal to satisfy themselves because

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they're, they want to abuse the animal.

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It's a means of control.

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It's a means of having

somebody do something.

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And, uh, to your point, they will They

will do it towards their partner, but

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they will do it towards the Children.

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I'm actually, I'm currently

pursuing a master's degree in

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animal law for non attorneys.

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And that's one of the things that we

have seen in one of the classes is

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the voices from these survivors saying

how their partner You know, killed an

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animal or threatened to kill an animal

just to just to make them compliant

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to make the Children comply and how

difficult it was for them to leave.

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I believe the statistics here, at

least in the United States, is that the

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average domestic violence victim will

attempt to leave about seven times.

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I don't know if that's

the same as what you see.

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Anna Ludvik: Yeah, it correlates

seven to nine in Australia.

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Yeah.

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DrG: So, uh, I know that there

are, there are more and more states

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here in the United States that are

including animals in protection orders

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for victims of domestic violence.

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Is that something that is

occurring in Australia as well?

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Anna Ludvik: Yeah, look,

theoretically it is.

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Um, in practice, there's not enough

research and not enough funding into

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research to know the incidence of that.

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And I'm not sure if...

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Because there's been some recent

legislative reform that's made that

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an easier thing to do in some states.

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So it's very hard to talk, you

know, as it is in America to talk

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about, um, a national approach.

371

:

Uh, but, you know, state by state it

is, it is increasingly happening, but I

372

:

don't think there's a level of awareness

or the general public awareness or

373

:

activism within, um, this, the domestic

and family set violence sectors or

374

:

the police force or enforcement,

that's actually really drilling home

375

:

just how critical that issue is.

376

:

And we don't have the on how

frequently that's occurring.

377

:

And that's one of The projects that

Lucy's project wants to take on is it's

378

:

understanding those baselines better

and understanding how that is increasing

379

:

because it's not happening often enough.

380

:

And of course, it's all complicated by

the issues of animals being property.

381

:

Which is an issue that, um, you know,

legally speaking, we haven't found an

382

:

alternative approach to that really works

in a domestic and family violence setting.

383

:

So if the animal is considered the legal

property of the perpetrator, it can

384

:

be incredibly difficult for the victim

survivor to gain access and control of

385

:

that animal in order to To to protect

that animal on to take custody off

386

:

that animal to take the animal away

from the perpetrator unless they can

387

:

prove somehow that they have assumed

the primary care of that animal, the

388

:

primary responsibility for the animal,

which if you don't have a caseworker

389

:

or a police that's understanding

or cognizant of the importance of

390

:

those issues, it's a little bit.

391

:

Complicated.

392

:

It's a mess.

393

:

It's a mess.

394

:

And, and I've spoken to a lot of

police officers as well about, about

395

:

how problematic that situation is.

396

:

Do you feel like that's

better in the States?

397

:

You think that's handled

better in the States?

398

:

I

399

:

DrG: think that in some places it's

starting to, so I know that, um,

400

:

custody battles happen and now more

and more they are like some more

401

:

States are looking at animals, not

simply as property more, but more as

402

:

living property so that they evaluate.

403

:

where the animal should go,

taking into consideration

404

:

the well being of the animal.

405

:

Similar as how children are, are sent

somewhere, you know, it should be

406

:

based on the well being of the child.

407

:

So some of these states that have these

provisions for custody battles, uh,

408

:

part of the well being of the animal

is that the person that is going to

409

:

retain custody of the animal is not

a violent person and is not, uh,

410

:

like a domestic violence perpetrator.

411

:

So at least in that sense, even if, even

if both, you know, if the, if the, uh,

412

:

violent spouse is the one that purchased

the animal, normally you would say,

413

:

okay, well, that's the person that keeps

it because they purchased the animal.

414

:

Well, now they look into more

than just simply who paid for it,

415

:

who, who made the transaction.

416

:

It's looked more from a

well, wellness, uh, overall.

417

:

Anna Ludvik: Mm.

418

:

I like that approach.

419

:

That's that's great.

420

:

That's really inspiring.

421

:

Lots of food for thought in that one.

422

:

Um, I'd love to get to that point.

423

:

I think that, you know, there's been

some fantastic work done in the United

424

:

States by the link coalition and, um,

and Phil Arco in raising awareness and

425

:

getting those issues out there and, and,

and highlighting it to the world of just,

426

:

just how much has been achieved in the

states, um, I'd love to, I'd love to get

427

:

to that same level here and keep Studying

what you guys are doing over there.

428

:

Uh, the link coalition's been, um,

incredible in informing and informing

429

:

our knowledge of what's happening.

430

:

So thank you very much for,

for that inspiration as well.

431

:

DrG: Yeah, and I, I think that overall, I

mean, it, it is just difficult for people

432

:

in general to understand why somebody

would not leave an abusive relationship.

433

:

And I think that one of the

problems that then end up occurring

434

:

is kind of like victim blaming.

435

:

Uh, and it's such a complex.

436

:

I'd say there's just so many reasons

why people can be the victims

437

:

of abuse, and there are so many

different forms of abuse, right?

438

:

So we, we only think

about the physical abuse.

439

:

We don't think about the emotional trauma,

we don't think about like financial

440

:

abuse and, and all these other things.

441

:

And it, it, it brings about different

challenges when people are trying to

442

:

leave and then you add the animal to

that equation and then it, it adds.

443

:

Yet another level of challenge is, you

know, how, how do you, I guess, how does

444

:

your organization work with somebody that,

that is in the process of trying to find

445

:

resources and trying to find a way out?

446

:

Anna Ludvik: I mean, Lucy's project

made the decision early on in our

447

:

formation that our primary focus is in

removing systemic roadblocks to safety.

448

:

So we.

449

:

Decided not to be an organization that

takes animals on ourselves or that

450

:

rehomes people, because we know that

that work, although there's a massive

451

:

need for that work, would keep us busy

enough that we wouldn't have time to go

452

:

in and actually work toward creating, um,

Creating the resources that people need.

453

:

And it's an interesting question.

454

:

Um, I'd like to hope that I can find

the right place to start with that.

455

:

Because that's quite a big question there.

456

:

And we found often that, I don't

know if this also correlates with

457

:

stats, um, where you are, but A lot

of people never actually go through

458

:

domestic and family violence services.

459

:

They actually, they actually,

they find their own supports.

460

:

They find their own resources.

461

:

And we found that by helping people to

have some tools in the time of crisis

462

:

to know how they can find protection for

their animals and protection, uh, and

463

:

all the things that they need for their

animal in the time of a crisis, a lot

464

:

of people are able to, when resourced,

find a lot of the solutions themselves

465

:

within their friends and family network.

466

:

But, you know, domestic and

family violence, be that.

467

:

Physical or be that emotional

or financial it, any marital

468

:

breakup or any relationship

breakup or any family breakdown.

469

:

Cause you have to remember family violence

isn't always about a romantic union.

470

:

It can be, you know, a family member

that, that is, that is causing

471

:

the strife within the family.

472

:

Whatever that breakdown

is, it is deeply traumatic.

473

:

It is a time of chaos.

474

:

It is a time of confusion and

it can be very, very hard to

475

:

find your way mentally through.

476

:

Those challenges and sometimes just having

a checklist that's ready at hand to know

477

:

what you need to do to have someone who's

got your back that believes in you, that

478

:

sees you, that says, yep, okay, here's

some things that you could you could

479

:

check off and you could get organized

for in order to find your way to safety.

480

:

We found it's been really, really

helpful for a lot of people.

481

:

Um, you know, able to go, okay, well, I

need to pack my animals, medication and

482

:

their feet and their bedding and just

that little bit of sort of structural

483

:

support and the things that they're

going to need to do in order to get out.

484

:

Those sorts of resources have been

really useful, but also we find,

485

:

um, with frontline workers who

are often incredibly overwhelmed.

486

:

will come to us and say, we don't know

how to support this client and actually

487

:

doing some training with frontline

workers on what the supports are in

488

:

their areas, how they can access it,

how they can support the client to find

489

:

friends and family within their own

network that might be able to help them.

490

:

Because in Australia, there's just.

491

:

An absolute paucity of resources

for people with animals experiencing

492

:

domestic and family violence.

493

:

As I mentioned at the beginning of 93

percent of people that turned away.

494

:

So what we need to do is think

outside the box and be quite creative.

495

:

So whilst we're very busily working with

organizations and helping them to be pet

496

:

inclusive and helping for organizations

and networks to form alliances that.

497

:

can offer more support

to people with animals.

498

:

In the immediate term, we're going to be

having to think out of the box and find

499

:

informal supports and helping people

to look around them at where they might

500

:

be able to find those supports and how.

501

:

We've had a really tough time post

COVID of shelters just overflowing

502

:

with animals that have been abandoned,

which, or surrendered, which has been

503

:

incredibly challenging for people

experiencing violence because it's

504

:

even further reduced the access.

505

:

that they have to those support

services and to the level of

506

:

exhaustion within animal services.

507

:

So there's a lot of thinking out the

box that has to happen constantly.

508

:

I hope that, um, that answers

your question there because

509

:

there's just so many, so many

different ways to talk about that.

510

:

So, um, one of the things that I like

to advocate for frequently, uh, is

511

:

foster care networks for animals.

512

:

There is a moment.

513

:

When a crisis first occurs where a person

is trying to find safe accommodation and

514

:

being able to stay with the animal is

sometimes just practically impossible.

515

:

There's just too many moving parts and the

instability is too great for the animal.

516

:

So there might be, there might be

short periods of up to 2 months where

517

:

that animal might need foster care.

518

:

But we also have to consider some

fairly gruesome realities for

519

:

people with animals and that is

hospitalization and suffering trauma.

520

:

from their injuries.

521

:

They might be physically incapable

for a period because of an assault

522

:

to look after their animals.

523

:

And without temporary foster

care networks, uh, people are

524

:

left with, with nowhere to go.

525

:

And also thinking about mental health

and periods of homelessness that

526

:

occur after domestic and family.

527

:

Violence.

528

:

It's very important that we have

foster care networks that are able

529

:

to wrap around the family for more

than just that initial crisis period.

530

:

But over the next sort of few years

as that family finds some stability

531

:

and some healing from those traumas,

those those crisis foster care

532

:

networks might come back into play.

533

:

So that's something that

we focus on quite strongly.

534

:

It's encouraging and speaking up about

the need for crisis foster care networks.

535

:

And I don't know what your experience

has been in this sector, but I've,

536

:

I often feel like people kind of

get like micro focused on there

537

:

being one solution, like if only all

crisis foster, if only all crisis.

538

:

women's refuges were able to take animals.

539

:

That would solve the problem.

540

:

And I'm like, well, yeah, like it might

do for people that go through those

541

:

refuges and it might do for the two

months that they're in those refuges.

542

:

But then what, you know, is it

going on to interim housing?

543

:

Is it going on to support them

when they have the surgery to

544

:

recover from a trauma a few years?

545

:

You know, you know, six months down

the line or a year down the line is

546

:

it helping them if they experience

homelessness in 12 months and and

547

:

the answer is that there's no one

solution that is ever going to do that.

548

:

We need to.

549

:

And this is something that

Lucy's project looks at.

550

:

We look at it from a 360 degree viewpoint.

551

:

What are all of the different services?

552

:

What are all of the different

supports that that person needs?

553

:

And how can we bring those into existence?

554

:

How can we be, you know, bridging those

gaps and filling in the space between

555

:

services and having those services

speak with each other and align with

556

:

each other so that they are accessible

and easy to refer to in a time of

557

:

crisis and in the years following that.

558

:

So that's what we do.

559

:

DrG: I had the opportunity to visit

a facility called Interfaith Housing

560

:

Network here in Ohio in Cincinnati, Ohio.

561

:

And basically what they are is they

are run by social workers, but they

562

:

offer a couple of different services.

563

:

And one of the services is like they

do offer co housing, they have a place

564

:

that people can go into and live for

either short term or a little bit

565

:

longer term, just until they get,

you know, how to say stronger to

566

:

be able to to move on on their own.

567

:

And then they also help people with,

as you were mentioning, the fostering.

568

:

Um, you know, either them holding onto

the animals kind of like as a rescue

569

:

or boarding facility of sorts, uh, or

providing assistance with foster care.

570

:

And there's a really great organization

called My Dog Is My Home that it just

571

:

helps provide assistance, similar

to how you're saying they don't work

572

:

directly with the individuals, but they

help with different organizations so

573

:

that they can help provide all of the

different things that they need because.

574

:

Yeah, as you said, it's not just saying,

okay, here, here's a place, here's a bed.

575

:

Now you, you have a place to sleep.

576

:

And the problem is solved is, you

know, what do you need to stay to,

577

:

to, to stay independent, right?

578

:

Because it's not a matter of, okay,

you got outta that relationship.

579

:

Now you need to look for

another relationship to survive.

580

:

Right?

581

:

Is no, how do you take care of you?

582

:

And especially if you have children,

how do you take care of you and

583

:

your children and then your animals?

584

:

So helping them with.

585

:

Whether it be getting ready to, to look

for a job or, you know, that all of

586

:

those nuances that we don't think about

when we're thinking about just basically

587

:

getting away from a violent situation.

588

:

Anna Ludvik: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

589

:

And you know, like, you just reminded

me that, you know, it's something that's

590

:

really easy to talk about as well.

591

:

You know, when we're going to be

talking about The link between

592

:

domestic violence and animal abuse.

593

:

It's very easy to really focus on

why we should care about these issues

594

:

and what the humans might need.

595

:

But there's a very animal, important

animal issue in here that we can't

596

:

forget as well is that we're talking

about some quite traumatized animals.

597

:

We might be talking about animals that

have experienced some horrific violence,

598

:

either themselves or witnessing or being

raised in a household with high anxiety

599

:

and high stress and seeing the people

that they care about being harmed.

600

:

And that can have some

horrible effects on that dog.

601

:

psychological well being.

602

:

We see behaviors like anxiety,

barking, separation anxiety.

603

:

We see things like, um,

sometimes aggression or, um,

604

:

anti social, uh, behaviors that,

that, uh, make that doable.

605

:

You know, I think specifically

about dogs as a default.

606

:

Animal, but it could be any animal

really that that has some behaviors

607

:

that are then hard to handle that

you can't necessarily just put into

608

:

any, any home, but then that animal

is going to need therapy of its own.

609

:

It's going to need behavioral support.

610

:

We often find that animals that

come out of these homes haven't

611

:

had adequate veterinary care or

health care for a very long time.

612

:

We hear horrible stories of animals that

have been chained up in backyards and

613

:

deprived of food and flea treatments

and nail care and dental care and, and

614

:

all these sort of fundamental health.

615

:

needs.

616

:

There's a massive vet bill that

sometimes comes with that animal finally

617

:

being able to be in a safe place.

618

:

Um, and we can't forget how important

it is for there to be somebody that's

619

:

animal trauma informed as well, able to

be there and why it's important that we

620

:

fund that aspect of domestic violence as

well, because that is, that is important.

621

:

is part of the whole story of domestic

and family violence and rehabilitation.

622

:

Uh, some of the hardest parts

of the work that I do is, is

623

:

looking through the sexual abuse

of animals and the traumatized.

624

:

I mean, there's some stuff I find

even hard to obliquely mention or

625

:

to even obliquely make reference

to, um, especially when it comes to

626

:

children, animals and sexual abuse.

627

:

That is so deeply problematic that we

need to be looking at that holistic

628

:

sort of post trauma recovery period

as well, uh, and addressing the

629

:

traumas that people have experienced

that do relate to animals, animal

630

:

welfare and animal well being.

631

:

Um, and sometimes it can even be the case

that that person cannot be around animals

632

:

because of what they've experienced.

633

:

So there is no singular answer,

there is no singular experience,

634

:

and there's no singular solution.

635

:

There's just a lot of work to be done.

636

:

And I just, I guess I...

637

:

I live in the hope that perhaps if we

had greater awareness of the link between

638

:

domestic violence and animal abuse,

perhaps if we had a greater awareness

639

:

of how important this stuff was, and

we were able to take it more seriously

640

:

and faster, it wouldn't get to those

incredibly intense, like so many of those

641

:

incredibly intense case studies that are

just so deep and so incredibly traumatic

642

:

with such horrible outcomes for people and

such horrible outcomes for animals that,

643

:

um, I hope we can avoid some of them.

644

:

I hope that some of them will be

nipped in the bud, as it were.

645

:

But it starts with awareness and

starts talking about these issues.

646

:

So I'm so grateful to you for for

platforming this issue and I hope

647

:

that somebody hears this and does

take animal abuse more seriously.

648

:

And one of the things that we

talk about as well is that animal

649

:

abuse can, I don't believe.

650

:

The statistics are something like,

oh gosh, what are they five times a

651

:

person who abuses animals is five times

more likely to go on and abuse humans.

652

:

But, I just see almost no instances.

653

:

I don't see many instances.

654

:

I can't think of any examples of where

somebody has abused an animal stops there.

655

:

You know, someone that abuses an

animal or is harmful towards an

656

:

animal is unlikely to be a person

that you are safe to be around.

657

:

And so if we were to take animal abuse

seriously, if we were able to actually

658

:

just look at that issue and go, that is

not something that is acceptable to me.

659

:

This is not something that's

acceptable in a modern society.

660

:

I wonder how many human lives we'd save.

661

:

And if we could stop trivializing

one issue over the other, if we

662

:

could stop the victim blaming, if we

could stop the, you know, this, this.

663

:

This issue, we don't like the sort

of triaging of what matters most.

664

:

If we could just take these issues that

are egregious abuses of a living being's

665

:

rights, if we could take them more

seriously, I just wonder what a kind

666

:

of world we'd be living in and how many

of these abuses we would be able to,

667

:

to solve before they became so serious.

668

:

DrG: Yeah, so many people

start with animals, right?

669

:

Because they're they're easy victims.

670

:

They don't tell anybody.

671

:

They can't tell anybody.

672

:

And they're just defenseless.

673

:

You know, we think about dogs.

674

:

Okay, the dog can bark

or the dog can bite.

675

:

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

676

:

Somebody that is abusive is going to

to take advantage of that relationship.

677

:

And that and the link

is extremely important.

678

:

Uh, A few weeks ago, I interviewed

Mark Randall from the UK, and we

679

:

were discussing about the importance

of investigating the animal crimes

680

:

as a way to protect society,

as a way to protect community.

681

:

He was telling about a story of

some, of some, uh, kids that were

682

:

killing dogs, and then they escalated

to start killing homeless people.

683

:

So, uh, we also see that with, for

instance, like dog fighting that

684

:

you go into a dog fighting thing.

685

:

It's not just about the

dogs that are being harmed.

686

:

It's about all the other human

crimes that are going on around it.

687

:

Uh, I have, I was involved in the

investigation of the evaluation of a case

688

:

where a child sexually assaulted a dog.

689

:

And then after investigating found out

that the child itself was being, uh,

690

:

sexually assaulted by its stepfather.

691

:

So, you know, by, by.

692

:

Taking the animals more seriously, we

can have a better hope of helping

693

:

society, you know, using the

animals as sentinels if anything.

694

:

Anna Ludvik: Absolutely, absolutely right.

695

:

Absolutely right.

696

:

Whenever I hear a story in the news of

some horrific abuse that some human has

697

:

caused toward another human, I go, Oh,

it's gonna be a matter of time until

698

:

something comes out in the news that this

person has done something to animals.

699

:

And vice versa.

700

:

And vice versa.

701

:

And it's shockingly accurate

how often that happens.

702

:

If people start to notice that in their

own lives, I think we'll start to take

703

:

animal cruelty more seriously for sure.

704

:

Um, it doesn't, this stuff doesn't happen

in a vacuum and it doesn't happen for

705

:

animal abuse does not happen with a

healthy person or from a healthy mind.

706

:

DrG: Yeah.

707

:

And I think it's important for

parents to, to recognize signs.

708

:

You know, and not shy away from if

they see that their kids are perhaps

709

:

being abusive of animals, or, you

know, too many people feel shamed.

710

:

And it's like, well, I don't want

people to know that my kid is doing

711

:

this, or my kid is thinking these

things, and they don't do anything.

712

:

And then that allows it to escalate.

713

:

You know, we love our kids, we have to.

714

:

do better for them.

715

:

So really important for parents to

hone in into these little, little

716

:

things and understand that it, it's

small right now, but it can escalate

717

:

and their kid could become, you

know, somebody violent in the future.

718

:

Anna Ludvik: Some interesting, some

interesting work to be done there.

719

:

I just think.

720

:

So much of this stuff needs to be

better understood and better researched.

721

:

And, and first and foremost, better

recognized, we need to, you know, we

722

:

need to see the stuff that is happening

in plain sight because as much work as

723

:

we've done and the link coalition has

done, I still feel like this is a, this is

724

:

considered one of the lesser known issues

and one of the lesser known causes, and

725

:

it definitely needs greater visibility.

726

:

It is a really, really,

really important issue.

727

:

Uh, I love the work Matt Randall does.

728

:

Uh, it's, it's chilling sometimes to

sit through one of his presentations

729

:

because you just realize.

730

:

How many red flags we're missing

and how many how many opportunities

731

:

there are to make a safer world

and just what the correlations are.

732

:

The power, I think, and the

possibilities there when we listen

733

:

to it is what we really need to do

is a takeaway when we understand.

734

:

I mean, he's got some fantastic work

showing co occurrence of of animal and

735

:

human abuse and early warning systems.

736

:

We have some of the most serious crimes.

737

:

We had a case in Australia recently

of horrible siege that a family

738

:

attacked some police officers.

739

:

They had delusions and attacked

and killed some police officers.

740

:

delusions It was horrible.

741

:

It was a shock to the nation, uh, how

violent and how sudden and how, um,

742

:

without warning this, this attack was.

743

:

And then in the news, a couple of days

later, there was stories of this guy

744

:

who was, uh, you know, the perpetrator

was a principal at a children's school

745

:

and he used to sit in the playground

and slaughter pigs so that the pig blood

746

:

would roll onto the, onto the basketball

court while children were playing.

747

:

This was happening in plain sight.

748

:

This was open knowledge.

749

:

This was known, and this is one of the

problems with animal protection as well.

750

:

He kills an animal that is socially

acceptable to be able to kill.

751

:

So we look at a pig being killed and

go, , yeah, because pigs are an animal

752

:

that are socially acceptable to kill.

753

:

So we say that people eat, you know,

whether you're vegan or vegetarian or what

754

:

have you, we understand that, that pigs

are an animal that are commonly raised.

755

:

to be slaughtered.

756

:

And so if, if a pig is slaughtered,

it doesn't raise the same kind

757

:

of level of shock that it does to

slaughter a dog in plain sight.

758

:

I don't think that's something that people

would have ever looked past, but we have

759

:

to understand as well, it's not normal to

slaughter a pig in the middle of the road.

760

:

It's not normal to be okay and to have

that level of comfort with slaughtering

761

:

an animal in front of children.

762

:

This is just not something that we do.

763

:

And we need to lose that perception

that animal cruelty is okay for some

764

:

species and not for other species.

765

:

We need to realize that it doesn't

matter if the animal is a companion

766

:

animal, such as a dog or a cat,

or that animal is a farmed animal.

767

:

If that animal is being treated with

cruelty, that person is not safe.

768

:

If that animal is treating animal

slaughter as something that is not a big

769

:

deal, I don't care what the circumstances

are, if they're doing it as if it's

770

:

just something that you would do, like,

Don't, don't, I'm trying to think of

771

:

an example of something we do every

day, waving in the street, you know.

772

:

If we think it's that blasé,

there is something very wrong.

773

:

Um, and we need to be very careful,

I think it's a really important issue

774

:

to take into consideration, because

people think it was just a feral cat.

775

:

It was just a mouse.

776

:

It was just a feral rabbit.

777

:

It was, you know, insert word

feral or pest and it's okay.

778

:

It is never okay.

779

:

It is never healthy to take the life of

another being in a way that is done to

780

:

cause distress to another living being.

781

:

That is never okay.

782

:

The value of that animal's life is

not in this particular instance,

783

:

the core fundamental problem.

784

:

And this is something that

we see that happens a lot.

785

:

Within our sector as well is, is how

trivialized and minimalized it is if

786

:

that animal was a, was a so called

pest animal or an unwanted animal.

787

:

If a person is killing or harming an

animal in a way that is intended to

788

:

cause harm to another human being,

it doesn't matter if that was your

789

:

beloved pet or if that was a feral pig.

790

:

It is not okay.

791

:

It is dangerous behavior and is indicative

of some really troublesome behavior

792

:

you can expect in the very near future.

793

:

Um, and it's not okay for that animal.

794

:

I would never condone the killing

of any animal in a harmful way for,

795

:

for, you know, for whatever reason,

but I think that society has a, it's,

796

:

it's just a cat and we trivialize

cats, we demonize cats, we treat.

797

:

cruelty to cats as if it's so much less

important than, say, cruelty to dogs.

798

:

And in Australia, we have this horrible

reality where we think that it's

799

:

okay to kill kangaroos and you can

do horrible things to kangaroos and

800

:

children are taken out on kangaroos.

801

:

Waters and shown horrible

ways of killing kangaroos, but

802

:

it's entirely lawful killing.

803

:

And it might be used as a form of

punishment for that child or coercive

804

:

control for that child, but it's legal.

805

:

Just because it's legal.

806

:

We need to take a look at the

fat, or lawful, we should say.

807

:

Just because it's lawful doesn't

mean that there's not a form of

808

:

abuse that's going on there in the

killing or the harming of an animal.

809

:

Um, and I think that's a, that's.

810

:

Yet and yet another one of the many layers

that we need to start looking into is

811

:

is not just is it okay to slaughter that

animal, but how is that being slaughtered?

812

:

And is it being slaughtered in

a way that is trying to control

813

:

or coerce a person into bending

to the will of the perpetrator?

814

:

DrG: Yeah, I have a huge problem when,

when, when children are taken to hunting

815

:

type activities, because the adult may

realize or understand what's happening,

816

:

but that kid does not understand.

817

:

They, they're, they're not

processing the purpose.

818

:

They're just processing the action.

819

:

And if anything, it can lead to a

sense of , Desensitization, right?

820

:

So they, they start losing care for

the action of killing that animal.

821

:

And it's not just, it's not a huge

leap to go from being desensitized,

822

:

from killing a cat to then killing

something bigger and then extending

823

:

it, expanding it to killing a human.

824

:

Anna Ludvik: One of the things that

keeps me awake at night, I mentioned

825

:

before that, you know, the risk of

lethality, the other thing is something

826

:

I put to me many, many years ago and

it really stuck with me is that when a

827

:

child is born, the first thing that we

do is we ask them to relate to animals

828

:

and they will relate to animals well

before they relate to the adult world.

829

:

So the first thing we do is we

might give them a teddy bear.

830

:

Or we might decorate their nursery

with baby ducks, or we might give them,

831

:

you know, you know, a rubber ducky

for their bath or, you know, all of

832

:

the, all of the characters have got

this sort of infantile animal sort of

833

:

presence to them in their, in their life.

834

:

And so children do see themselves in

animals and they see, they relate to the

835

:

animal world around them or the child, the

childlike innocence of an animal before

836

:

they ever relate to the adult world.

837

:

And so when we do take a child's.

838

:

And when we do traumatize an animal

or hurt an animal, we might as well

839

:

just be hurting the child because

they are relating to and empathizing

840

:

with that, with that animal.

841

:

And so I don't disagree with you at all

with what you were saying about hunting

842

:

and how damaging that can be for a young

mind or any form of, we desensitize

843

:

children all the time to animal cruelty,

telling them what is and is not okay.

844

:

And it can have a real effect on, on

children's ability to form empathy.

845

:

And it can have an effect on

children's self esteem as well.

846

:

And that's like a whole

minefield that we can.

847

:

Do a whole separate discussion on

another time and probably with an

848

:

expert better qualified than myself

to talk about child psychology.

849

:

But what I was talking about as well

before was, was quite intentional

850

:

abuse of that child's naivety and

quite intentional abuse of that

851

:

child's psychological wellbeing.

852

:

Whereas if the child did not acquiesce

to the wishes of the perpetrator,

853

:

I'm going to take you out and

show you what I will do to this

854

:

animal and kill it in front of you.

855

:

I know that you don't want to go.

856

:

I know that you're

screaming, stop daddy, stop.

857

:

I don't want this to happen or

whoever the perpetrator is, but

858

:

they're going to do it as a form of

control and punishment for the child.

859

:

, and, uh, and the child will be

traumatized, will be horrified,

860

:

uh, will be distressed.

861

:

But what can they do?

862

:

They turn around and dad's

like, well, I'm a hunter.

863

:

It's my job.

864

:

That's what I do.

865

:

Or this is lawful.

866

:

And people, what, what

can you say to that?

867

:

What defense does that child have?

868

:

Who's going to take that child's back?

869

:

And it's really important that we start

to have those conversations in a broader

870

:

sense about the psychological trauma that

animal abuse inflicts on children and,

871

:

uh, and understand it might be lawful.

872

:

It doesn't make it right.

873

:

DrG: Yeah, I think that we're starting

to see it here in cases of, for instance,

874

:

like dogfighting, that it's a, it's now

a felony in all 50 states to engage in

875

:

dogfighting, but then it's also a felony

to take a child to be a spectator in it,

876

:

because they are realizing the damages

that, that just seeing that kind of

877

:

violence, you know, results in a child.

878

:

And children that are...

879

:

Or that experiences are more likely

to grow up and then be abusers

880

:

and, and commit crimes themselves.

881

:

Anna Ludvik: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

882

:

Absolutely.

883

:

It's great to hear that there's

more of a conversation around that.

884

:

It's critical.

885

:

.

DrG: So, , where is your organization now, and where do you see it going from here?

886

:

Anna Ludvik: Oh, that's

a really hard question.

887

:

Oh my goodness.

888

:

Oh my goodness, we've just

been through absolute storm.

889

:

We're just on the, we're just like in the,

we've just been through an absolute storm.

890

:

We, we ran out of money 18 months ago.

891

:

We were, we were facing collapse actually,

because we just didn't have any funds.

892

:

And I just, I just went.

893

:

Gave up my all and threw my everything

into it and went cap in hand to the

894

:

New South Wales government and which

is one of the states in Australia,

895

:

uh, and begged for some money.

896

:

I just said, it's this or we can't exist.

897

:

And they, to their enormous credit

and to the incredible advocacy of, of,

898

:

of Emma Hearst of the animal justice

party and, and, and her persistence,

899

:

we were, uh, Lucky and securing

some funds, but we only got those

900

:

funds significant operational funds.

901

:

We only got those funds in

July 1st of July this year.

902

:

So we have been since 1st of July

being trying to restart our core

903

:

activities and pick ourselves up and

get out there and be of service again.

904

:

So at the moment, what we're

doing is we are we are surviving

905

:

and we have funding for the next

two years and nothing after that.

906

:

So sure.

907

:

It's just looking at looking at,

um, at making sure that we do

908

:

the most effective project that

we can for the next two years.

909

:

And I think, as I mentioned earlier.

910

:

My passion is to look at systems

and ensuring that unnecessary

911

:

roadblocks are permanently removed.

912

:

So that no matter what happens in the

future, it's a permanent impact and

913

:

permanent change and embedding into as

many minds as we can, the importance of

914

:

understanding the link between domestic

and family violence and, and really

915

:

embedding that knowledge, inculcating

that knowledge into the minds of.

916

:

service organizations that animals

must be included in safety planning and

917

:

helping those organizations to have the

safety planning tools, the education,

918

:

the training that they need to know

how to, in the very first instance,

919

:

provide for animals for something

that we get so commonly because these

920

:

issues are trivialized as it's 5 p.

921

:

m.

922

:

On a Friday afternoon, I've got

this dog and there's nowhere to go.

923

:

Can you take it?

924

:

And the answer is no, we can't.

925

:

But if you told me about this

six weeks ago when you started

926

:

working with this case, then the

answers would have been multiple.

927

:

There would have been so much we could

do if you had at the point of intake

928

:

accounted for taking knowledge of the

animals that were in that person's care.

929

:

You have a whole host of

options available to you.

930

:

But if you leave it to the 11th

hour, there is nothing except

931

:

devastation and heartbreak.

932

:

And so one of the things that I

hear commonly is for people who were

933

:

forced to surrender their animals.

934

:

Many, many, many years ago, you know, up

to 30 years ago, I've heard these stories.

935

:

It's the hardest thing sometimes for

those people to forgive themselves

936

:

for, and to get past that they said

that they abandoned their best friend.

937

:

And I can't imagine, you know, the

relationship that I have with my animals.

938

:

If I ever abandoned them, I know

I would never, no matter what the

939

:

circumstances for me personally,

I know I would never recover.

940

:

From that, because the bond that I

have with them, they are my everything.

941

:

They are my world there.

942

:

You know, I know that, you

know, I have children now.

943

:

I have living children as well.

944

:

And I, you know, I would, you know,

I don't need to tell any parent or

945

:

anybody really that I would, you

know, die for my children, of course.

946

:

But how important my pets are, like.

947

:

My animals are to me, it's just as that

sense of duty is, is just as strong.

948

:

It's different, but it's just as strong.

949

:

Um, and I, I never want anybody to have

to, to have to go through, to have to go

950

:

through that, and I know that I couldn't.

951

:

I know that I've been tried

and tested and couldn't.

952

:

But, um, so that's what

we're looking at doing.

953

:

Uh, and then always looking

for projects that are the best

954

:

way to get those messages out.

955

:

I have, you know, there's some really

exciting things that we have in the

956

:

pipeline and I'm so desperate to

tell you about them, but I can't

957

:

because we haven't, we haven't got

the funding to get them going and we

958

:

haven't got them approved through.

959

:

The board and through, um, you know,

we were still in planning stages for

960

:

a lot of really exciting things, but

we have some really exciting projects

961

:

working with animal organizations

and working with domestic and family

962

:

violence organizations in education

and training and this work that we do.

963

:

That we've been calling aware

arc, which is a 360 degree look at

964

:

communities and going into communities

and resourcing the entire community.

965

:

So, in every aspect of their services

to make sure that human and animal

966

:

services are connected and working

together and know who they can refer

967

:

to, how they can refer to them, what

kind of information the other person

968

:

needs, how, what they're going to do

with that information, how to keep a

969

:

person safe, because, you know, there's

this whole aspect we haven't spoken to.

970

:

In this conversation, which is about a

human safety for animal services that are

971

:

dealing with animals that are victims of

domestic and family violence because human

972

:

like animal rescue services often run

by volunteers that don't have extensive

973

:

training that don't have access to safety

planning mechanisms and tools and the

974

:

risk that vets and animal services are

put into when they are dealing with

975

:

these very dangerous perpetrators.

976

:

I mean, look, how long do you

want this interview to be?

977

:

But okay.

978

:

When we start talking about an animal

that is surrendered to an animal

979

:

shelter, um, sometimes by a, a person

experiencing violence, and that

980

:

animal is owned by a perpetrator of

violence, and then, then, then I don't

981

:

know how it works in the States, but

here, if the name's on the microchip

982

:

and they are the registered owner.

983

:

Then that shelter cannot assume

the ownership of that animal

984

:

unless they have permission from

the person named on the microchip.

985

:

So even though in good faith, a victim

has said, I can't take the animal.

986

:

Please look after it.

987

:

They're then obliged because they've

got the property of another being to

988

:

get in touch with the perpetrator.

989

:

That animal goes straight back to the

perpetrator and that victim survivor

990

:

is in the same position that they left

a couple of days earlier or that day

991

:

of having them go, I've got your dog.

992

:

I'm going to harm your dog.

993

:

You better get home with the kids.

994

:

You know, you're right

back into that position.

995

:

But then they've got, but then

if they do take on the animal.

996

:

And there's a perpetrator that's looking

for that animal because what they're

997

:

trying to do is they're trying to find the

victim survivors whereabouts or they're

998

:

trying to harm them, then those animal

service workers are also in harm's way

999

:

with some very dangerous perpetrators.

:

00:54:09,703 --> 00:54:12,163

And if they don't necessarily know

about that because they haven't.

:

00:54:12,903 --> 00:54:14,593

They don't have the full picture.

:

00:54:14,593 --> 00:54:15,783

They're just there on the front line.

:

00:54:16,213 --> 00:54:18,833

And so it's a really dangerous

and scary situation for them.

:

00:54:18,833 --> 00:54:20,243

There has been cases in the U.

:

00:54:20,243 --> 00:54:20,403

S.

:

00:54:20,403 --> 00:54:24,713

of vets that have been attacked, uh,

with domestic and family, through

:

00:54:24,713 --> 00:54:27,593

domestic and family violence and

perpetrators coming in to try to

:

00:54:27,613 --> 00:54:29,943

reclaim a dog from a victim survivor.

:

00:54:30,223 --> 00:54:32,833

I think there was even a vet that

was killed in the United States.

:

00:54:33,293 --> 00:54:35,563

And there's been panic

buttons and many assaults.

:

00:54:35,653 --> 00:54:40,698

Um, But we know that often vets

suspect domestic and family violence

:

00:54:40,698 --> 00:54:43,018

and they don't know what to do about

it because they have the animal

:

00:54:43,018 --> 00:54:44,428

training and not the human training.

:

00:54:44,688 --> 00:54:49,248

So Lucy's project kind of likes to

look at that from a 360 degree view

:

00:54:49,248 --> 00:54:53,428

and go, Hey, both you, that we need to

be a conduit of communication between

:

00:54:53,658 --> 00:54:55,628

those human and animal services.

:

00:54:55,628 --> 00:54:56,548

We need to be working together.

:

00:54:56,548 --> 00:54:58,738

We need to be keeping

everybody in a story safe.

:

00:54:58,738 --> 00:55:01,418

We need to make sure that the animal

is not a mobile tracking device.

:

00:55:01,998 --> 00:55:06,158

For the victim survivor, and we

need to make sure that the workers

:

00:55:06,168 --> 00:55:08,938

themselves aren't aren't in

harm's way because they're in good

:

00:55:08,938 --> 00:55:12,598

faith taking on an animal that a

perpetrator is interested in finding.

:

00:55:13,078 --> 00:55:16,658

And this is just like a minefield of

just so many different issues that

:

00:55:16,658 --> 00:55:19,408

we could talk about with traceability

of animals we haven't even gotten

:

00:55:19,458 --> 00:55:22,318

into how difficult that is with, you

know, especially in Australia with

:

00:55:22,318 --> 00:55:26,728

very strict biosecurity laws and trace

an animal traceability is incredibly

:

00:55:26,728 --> 00:55:29,148

important for for biosecurity reasons.

:

00:55:29,378 --> 00:55:31,018

But then if that is a companion animal.

:

00:55:31,403 --> 00:55:35,113

And you basically become like,

very, very hard to hide your

:

00:55:35,113 --> 00:55:36,843

whereabouts or to do things in secret.

:

00:55:37,263 --> 00:55:39,443

So there's, there's a lot

of issues there to consider.

:

00:55:39,443 --> 00:55:42,293

And these are all the things that we

think about because it's also really

:

00:55:42,293 --> 00:55:47,443

important for us to not sideline, um,

rural regional and remote living people

:

00:55:47,543 --> 00:55:51,443

and the particular issues that they are

facing in their communities as well.

:

00:55:52,213 --> 00:55:54,793

So it's a lot of work there

to be done on, on, on.

:

00:55:55,293 --> 00:55:58,623

Those systems getting information out

there, creating resources, creating

:

00:55:58,623 --> 00:56:03,443

tools, um, and supporting organizations to

upskill and strengthen their own supports.

:

00:56:05,193 --> 00:56:05,513

Where are we going?

:

00:56:08,948 --> 00:56:09,948

DrG: Just, just a little bit.

:

00:56:09,948 --> 00:56:10,208

Right.

:

00:56:11,098 --> 00:56:15,628

No, but that's, that's great because as

the, one of the things that I do, I have

:

00:56:15,628 --> 00:56:19,588

a mobile veterinary clinic and we travel

through a lot of rural areas, offering

:

00:56:19,588 --> 00:56:24,638

affordable and accessible care because

it with, with animal, animal neglect, you

:

00:56:24,638 --> 00:56:29,058

see intentional neglect, which I see as

a forensic veterinarian, but then as a

:

00:56:29,098 --> 00:56:33,078

regular veterinarian, I see unintentional

neglect, just people that can not

:

00:56:33,248 --> 00:56:34,758

afford to take care of their animals.

:

00:56:35,078 --> 00:56:35,468

So.

:

00:56:36,043 --> 00:56:40,303

It is very similar to kind of like

a project that we are trying to get

:

00:56:40,303 --> 00:56:46,243

together, which is involving social

workers and then going to these areas that

:

00:56:46,583 --> 00:56:50,503

are veterinary deserts and the animals

have no care, but then also the people

:

00:56:50,513 --> 00:56:53,063

have no resources so that we can go in.

:

00:56:53,433 --> 00:56:58,343

Help the animals, but then help

the people be able to sustain the,

:

00:56:58,353 --> 00:57:00,313

the care for their animals, right?

:

00:57:00,643 --> 00:57:05,623

Instead of just trying to go and point

fingers and say you should not have a dog

:

00:57:05,623 --> 00:57:09,853

because you're not taking proper care of

Them is how can I help you keep this dog?

:

00:57:10,093 --> 00:57:13,733

Because I know that this dog is an

important source of support for you and

:

00:57:13,733 --> 00:57:17,488

you are an important source of support

for this animal Like the dog doesn't care.

:

00:57:17,488 --> 00:57:20,088

The dog or the cat doesn't care that

the owner doesn't have any money, right?

:

00:57:20,118 --> 00:57:23,318

The dog or the cat doesn't care that

the owner can't buy them the best food.

:

00:57:23,538 --> 00:57:24,808

They just care that they're there.

:

00:57:25,158 --> 00:57:29,038

So just, you know, that whole One

Health approach, the taking care of the

:

00:57:29,038 --> 00:57:30,698

people and taking care of the animal.

:

00:57:30,978 --> 00:57:35,078

So I see that, you know, kind of like

the project and where you see yourself

:

00:57:35,078 --> 00:57:37,398

going, even though it's different.

:

00:57:37,943 --> 00:57:43,763

Aspects of human and an animal care,

but it's still, you know, looking at

:

00:57:43,833 --> 00:57:48,323

everything together because we cannot

take the animal away from the person

:

00:57:48,323 --> 00:57:49,633

and the person away from the animal.

:

00:57:49,643 --> 00:57:54,593

Like it's all one, uh, to, to the words

of Alicia Kennedy, they're one unit

:

00:57:54,743 --> 00:57:56,273

and you have to treat them as such.

:

00:57:57,258 --> 00:57:59,528

Anna Ludvik: Alicia Kennedy's

amazing, the work that she's doing

:

00:57:59,538 --> 00:58:00,608

through, through Cherish Pets.

:

00:58:00,608 --> 00:58:04,128

She's just such an inspiration to

me and such an asset to Australia.

:

00:58:04,738 --> 00:58:08,288

Um, as is, I don't know if you've

come across the amazing, um, Jennifer

:

00:58:08,288 --> 00:58:11,078

Howard of Safe Pets, Safe Families

in Australia, just the most amazing

:

00:58:11,078 --> 00:58:12,178

people working in the sector.

:

00:58:12,538 --> 00:58:16,338

But I mean, I just love this work

that Alicia and others are doing.

:

00:58:16,388 --> 00:58:19,108

Um, there's, I could, I, there's a

lot of people that I could name here

:

00:58:19,138 --> 00:58:20,778

in the social veterinary work space.

:

00:58:21,158 --> 00:58:25,558

Um, and it's just, it's just so important

that we understand that One Health idea

:

00:58:25,558 --> 00:58:27,158

and we understand how integrated they are.

:

00:58:27,158 --> 00:58:30,488

And I'm so excited that this entire

profession now is coming into

:

00:58:30,708 --> 00:58:34,438

being to, to better support people

with animals and understanding the

:

00:58:34,438 --> 00:58:38,058

human animal bond and its absolute

centrality in, in, in welfare.

:

00:58:38,708 --> 00:58:42,871

DrG: So if anybody listening is interested

in learning more about your organization

:

00:58:42,871 --> 00:58:47,081

and perhaps helping with donations or

funding some of these projects, how can

:

00:58:47,081 --> 00:58:49,071

they find out more about Lucy's project?

:

00:58:50,016 --> 00:58:51,566

Anna Ludvik: Yeah, so many ways.

:

00:58:51,786 --> 00:58:52,826

Thank you for asking that.

:

00:58:53,466 --> 00:58:57,906

Um, Always, uh, we, we do maintain

a website which is helpful for

:

00:58:57,906 --> 00:59:00,666

international people if they want to

know about us at any time of the day.

:

00:59:00,726 --> 00:59:03,526

Um, so that's lucysproject.com.au.

:

00:59:03,756 --> 00:59:07,026

Even if you just go to lucy project.com,

you'll, it'll direct you to us.

:

00:59:07,476 --> 00:59:11,806

Um, you can always email me

at info@lucysproject.com.

:

00:59:12,381 --> 00:59:15,001

And, um, and get in

touch with us that way.

:

00:59:15,001 --> 00:59:17,661

Check us out on Instagram or on Facebook.

:

00:59:17,711 --> 00:59:21,011

We will be increasing our social media

presence and the information that we

:

00:59:21,011 --> 00:59:24,791

share that way over the coming weeks

as well, so that you'll be able to stay

:

00:59:24,791 --> 00:59:28,631

informed of what we're up to and some

more information as it comes to hand.

:

00:59:28,971 --> 00:59:31,921

I always welcome any kind of

email if you want to get in touch

:

00:59:31,921 --> 00:59:32,951

with me and talk about anything.

:

00:59:33,711 --> 00:59:36,061

You can always catch

me, catch me by email.

:

00:59:36,291 --> 00:59:39,401

And we always really welcome, um,

donations or people that would

:

00:59:39,401 --> 00:59:43,341

like to, particularly donations

that are tied to awareness raising.

:

00:59:43,381 --> 00:59:46,011

So we like really encourage people, would

you like to have a morning tea at your

:

00:59:46,011 --> 00:59:47,781

workplace and talk about these issues?

:

00:59:47,781 --> 00:59:50,611

Or is there somewhere that you'd

like to kind of platform this stuff?

:

00:59:50,611 --> 00:59:54,831

Maybe a charity fundraiser for a community

event where this can just be an issue

:

00:59:54,831 --> 00:59:58,331

that we start to talk about and start

the discussion about the importance

:

00:59:58,331 --> 01:00:00,141

of human safety and animal safety.

:

01:00:00,421 --> 01:00:03,161

Um, and if anybody is

interested in doing that, I'm.

:

01:00:03,256 --> 01:00:06,826

Always super keen to hear, especially

when there's an awareness raising

:

01:00:06,856 --> 01:00:09,926

aspect in that, if you'd like to get

involved, wherever you are in the

:

01:00:09,926 --> 01:00:11,126

world, we'd love to hear from you.

:

01:00:12,326 --> 01:00:12,906

DrG: I love it.

:

01:00:12,976 --> 01:00:14,096

I love education.

:

01:00:14,096 --> 01:00:16,556

I mean, I think that that's

the way to move forward, right?

:

01:00:16,556 --> 01:00:19,426

Like the more people know,

the better they can do.

:

01:00:19,826 --> 01:00:21,966

I, it's been amazing having you.

:

01:00:22,556 --> 01:00:25,256

As a guest, I've loved this

conversation and everything that

:

01:00:25,256 --> 01:00:27,316

you, that, that you have to offer.

:

01:00:27,656 --> 01:00:31,156

And I want to thank you for everything

that you do for people and for animals.

:

01:00:31,526 --> 01:00:34,906

Uh, is there anything, any words

of wisdom that you want to tell our

:

01:00:34,906 --> 01:00:37,526

listeners on, you know, as, as we close?

:

01:00:38,561 --> 01:00:39,471

Anna Ludvik: Oh, my goodness.

:

01:00:39,471 --> 01:00:42,711

You know, it's hard to stop me talking

when you start, but when I start, but

:

01:00:42,841 --> 01:00:45,761

you know, the first thing I want to just

echo really, it's just how grateful I

:

01:00:45,761 --> 01:00:50,021

am to you for platforming this issue

for the incredible work that you do

:

01:00:50,021 --> 01:00:51,601

and getting the information out there.

:

01:00:51,601 --> 01:00:53,501

And just a huge thank you

to you and everyone that's

:

01:00:53,501 --> 01:00:56,621

listening to this, especially

listening to it right to the end.

:

01:00:56,951 --> 01:01:01,121

Thanks for taking the time and giving this

issue some of your space and attention.

:

01:01:01,461 --> 01:01:06,041

If you could go and tell one person

or two people about the link.

:

01:01:06,511 --> 01:01:10,621

And you could go out there, you're

going to have a really big impact on our

:

01:01:10,621 --> 01:01:13,671

awareness globally, on the importance

of these issues, doesn't matter where

:

01:01:13,671 --> 01:01:17,331

you are in the world, it's going to

be the same issue wherever there is a

:

01:01:17,331 --> 01:01:21,171

human life, an animal life in danger,

there's going to be human life at risk.

:

01:01:21,701 --> 01:01:24,651

So thank you so much for forming

issue in our organization.

:

01:01:25,696 --> 01:01:26,836

DrG: And thank you.

:

01:01:26,856 --> 01:01:28,526

And hopefully we can have you again.

:

01:01:28,526 --> 01:01:32,536

Once you start some of these amazing

projects, you, we can have you

:

01:01:32,536 --> 01:01:36,806

again as a guest and talk about

where, you know, where you are and

:

01:01:36,816 --> 01:01:38,106

where you're going at that point,

:

01:01:38,806 --> 01:01:41,096

Anna Ludvik: I'd fall over myself

to have another chat with you.

:

01:01:41,106 --> 01:01:41,966

Thank you so much.

:

01:01:42,046 --> 01:01:43,326

It's been really enjoyable.

:

01:01:44,056 --> 01:01:44,736

DrG: Fantastic.

:

01:01:44,746 --> 01:01:45,726

Well, thank you everybody.

:

01:01:45,726 --> 01:01:48,306

That's listening and thank

you so much for caring.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.