Episode 29

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Published on:

19th Oct 2023

Selecting the Right Dog with guest Liz Menegon

The shelters are overcrowded. This is a sad reality. And these animals are there at no fault of their own. Part of the problem is when individuals purchase animals without researching or learning about the traits of the breed or the individual dog and end up with a pet that is not compatible with their lifestyle.

Today's guest, Elizabeth Menegon, is the creator of Hands 2 Paws, an app that helps individuals browse animals that may be a better fit based on the qualities of the dog instead of just aesthetics. We also discuss the dangers of purchasing from back yard breeders, puppy mills, pet stores, and online services.

We will always believe in Adopt Don't Shop, but for those with specific needs that must purchase a dog, please shop responsibly.

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Transcript
Speaker:

Dr. G: Hi, and welcome to

the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today, we have our

guest, Elizabeth Menegon.

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And she is going to be joining

us to talk about proper dog

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selection in an attempt to keep

animals from ending up in shelters.

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The shelter overcrowding epidemic

is huge, and animals are being

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surrendered at no fault of their own.

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So we are going to be discussing the

reasons why this happened, how we

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can help keep this from happening

as consumers and as advocates.

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So thank you so much,

Liz, for joining us today.

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Liz Menegon: Thank you.

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Thank you for allowing me

to share your platform.

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Dr. G: To start, can you let our

listeners know about your history,

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kind of your background, and what

brought you to where you are today?

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Liz Menegon: Sure.

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Well, it, it was a combination of things.

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Um, I am an animal lover.

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I always have had a dog since I was young.

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, and during COVID, I was living in New York

City, and I realized that seeing people

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coming out of their apartment buildings,

, people were owning dogs that were not

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apartment dwelling creatures.

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I was seeing, , an unimaginable number

of doodles, Labradoodle, Bernadoodles,

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Corgis, miniature Australian Shepherds.

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And I thought, God, don't people realize

that these are not really apartment dogs.

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So, I went through COVID, and during

COVID your brain starts to go in odd

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places because we were all quarantined.

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And I started thinking about my own

life, and I do not have children.

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And...

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It was then that I decided

I need to do something.

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I want to do something that

makes a difference in the world.

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I didn't know what it was going to be

at the time, but I knew that I could

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have gotten COVID and passed away.

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Like everyone else.

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I live three blocks from a hospital,

so all I heard all night long was

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sirens and ambulances, and there's no

reason why that wasn't me, basically.

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So I made the decision that, um, I

was going to move out of the city.

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I had started a small business.

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I am not from the dog industry.

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Um, I'm actually make, my company

makes organic products, lip

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balm, body balm, stuff like that.

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So I wanted to grow that business.

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So I left the city and this was in June.

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Um, it'll be three years in June.

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And in August, I was in my new apartment.

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And I thought I saw three miniature

Australian shepherds from the lobby,

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the garage and going up to my apartment.

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And I thought, what is wrong with people?

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And I think I was saying this really out

loud as I was opening my apartment door.

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I think I swore too.

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And I just basically said,

what is wrong with people?

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Why aren't people buying the right dog?

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And I thought, well, there must be an app.

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There must be something that helps people.

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So I did some research.

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It was on a Wednesday.

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I'll never forget it.

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And I started to scrub around on

the internet and what I found was

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nothing that would actually help

you in the decision making process.

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So it was then that I realized,

now I know what I want to do.

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I want to create something that

is going to make a difference.

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And that is an app that will

help people decide on the right.

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Breed of dog and getting that

dog from the right source.

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And I knew exactly what I wanted it to be.

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I knew how I wanted it to function and

I knew what I didn't want it to do.

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So I reached out to five developers

and only one developer said,

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we must sign a nondisclosure.

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Don't tell anyone your idea.

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And it was like this, like a

top secret, like, Oh my God,

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I was bursting at the seams.

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Because he said, you've got a great idea.

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So, that is how my journey started.

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And it started with creating Hands

to Paws, which is the only mobile

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app in the world, basically,

that does what my app does.

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And it is now available in

Canada and also in the UK.

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Dr. G: I think it's...

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funny how animal advocacy takes

different forms and how you get the

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calling at different moments, right?

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You get that aha moment.

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And it's like, Oh, this is

what I'm meant to do, right?

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You're, you're doing something

completely unrelated to animal advocacy.

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And then all of a sudden, you

see something that impacts you.

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And most of us are animal lovers.

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And you know, the research

shows that most people consider

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animals as part of the family.

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We're not seeing them as property,

even though in the law, They're

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still unfortunately seen as property.

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, we see them as members of our family.

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But one of the sad realities is that a lot

of people are choosing these members of

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the family without , any true education.

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we were discussing about the fact that

people spend more time researching.

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What kind of phone they're gonna

purchase or what kind of television

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they're gonna get We're researching

in depth things that are material that

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are, Short term type things and we

are not spending enough time and effort

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researching A lifelong commitment,

like a 15, 17 year, , commitment.

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Liz Menegon: Well, I think it, you

know, we live in a very, um, get it now.

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Don't wait.

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In your face.

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Historically, pet stores.

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Where people would buy a puppy

and the puppies are always in

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the window and the pet stores are

always in a high traffic area.

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It's to get you in there are

statistics that most puppy

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purchases are impulse purchases.

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So now you don't need to leave

your house and go walking down

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the street after dinner and

saying, oh, there is a pet store.

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Let's go in.

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You are seeing pop up after pop up

Golden Doodle, Bernadoodle, Danadoodle

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and you're inundated with advertising

and TikTok videos of these adorable

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shaved Pomeranians and so visually

people are so overstimulated.

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It's very easy to fall in love

with this adorable looking puppy.

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Click on the website and buy a

dog, you can get that faster.

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That's a faster transaction

than ordering a pizza.

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And I think that is where educating the

public, um, needs to step in because it

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is an impulse purchase, but it's so easy.

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Dr. G: I know many people that

have said that they've gone

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into a pet store to buy food.

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Or to buy an item for a dog that they

already have and of course everybody

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wants to look at the puppies that they

have and then they end up with a dog and

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a $5,000 to $10,000 bill for an animal

that they were not even prepared to have.

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And there are many reasons

why they'll do that.

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They'll do it because

the puppy looks cute.

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Sometimes they'll do it because

they look at this dog and the dog

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looks sad or it looks sick and they.

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They think of it as rescuing, and what

they're doing is inadvertently helping

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continue the, the puppy mill industry.

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Liz Menegon: Correct.

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They fall in love.

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You know, you'll never see an ugly puppy,

but there is methodology behind that.

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It's like a grocery store.

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Certain things are placed in certain

places for you to purchase and they

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know when you walk into a puppy

store and you admire or a puppy

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catches your eye, they're watching

your body language and then they'll

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say, Oh, do you want to hold her?

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That's the kiss of death phrase.

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First of all, I tell people don't go

into a pet store that sells puppies.

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You want to buy dog food.

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Go on Amazon.

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You want to stay out of pet stores.

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I can't go into a pet store.

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There's one near where I live because I'm

going to handcuff myself to the door and

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tell them that these are all from puppy

mills and I'll end up getting arrested.

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So, you know, me going in wouldn't

end up well for the, for the store.

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But the first thing is, you Acknowledging

where these animals come from and then

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staying away from where, where they are.

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Dr. G: You know, we are big supporters of

pet stores that don't sell pets, right?

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So, uh, facilities that sell all

the food and they sell, you know,

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the collars and the toys and the cat

trees and all of that stuff, but they

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acknowledge the fact that you should not

be purchasing animals from a pet store.

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And there are so many

reasons for that, right?

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So you don't know really

what you're getting.

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There is this misconception

that people get.

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I don't want to rescue a puppy.

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From a shelter because I don't know

where it came from, like they think that

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buying a puppy from a pet store, they

know where it came from just because it

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comes with some form of registration.

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Most of them, which are not

from actual kennel clubs.

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Liz Menegon: Exactly.

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That's a whole other conversation.

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I called someone out on

that and then had a severe.

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Um, bullying issue on

the, on our Instagram.

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Um, but that's another topic that

we can, another podcast we can do.

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But yeah, it's um, you know,

AKC registered means nothing.

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And let me repeat that.

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AKC registered puppies mean nothing

unless you breed and show dogs.

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Period.

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. That is it.

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It means nothing.

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It does not give valid, um, validity

to a healthy animal, but mainstream

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America sees AKC puppies in the

window and they think, oh, AKC.

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It's gotta be okay.

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And it isn't.

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It's, it's, it isn't false advertising.

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It's just it isn't.

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There is no value.

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And I think that, you know, it's

like, it's like buying a product that

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says, you know, approved by the FDA

versus not approved by the FDA, you

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kind of think, oh, AKC, it's okay.

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And it's not okay.

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And I just want to say 1

thing that is very important.

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Um, the American Kennel Club

refuses to take a public stand

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and commenting on puppy mills.

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That is a travesty, and that

only fuels sales and infuriates

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breeders that are responsible.

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Because if the AKC did take a public stand

and say, you know what, enough is enough.

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Puppy mills are a real problem.

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If your history of over 120

years is breed integrity,

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it's not breed integrity.

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They've gotten around it by

creating a companionship membership.

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So they've decided to capitalize on the

market instead of saying, please don't.

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Please don't buy dogs online.

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Please don't buy dogs in pet stores.

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They've, they've capitalized on it.

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And I think that is shameful.

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Dr. G: I think one of the important

things as far as breed integrity is

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that some of these dogs are being

bred for congenital abnormalities.

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And they're being sold under the

guise that these are normal problems.

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And we have to understand that

something that is common is not normal.

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Um, I recently, I, I run

a spay and neuter clinic.

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And I recently had a dog that came

in to have surgery to get neutered.

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This gentleman had rescued the dog

from somebody else and the dog had a

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condition, what we call stenotic nares.

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So the dog's nose was so

scrunched in that the dog could

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not breathe through its nose.

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And we called the, we called the

owner to inform him about the

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condition and see if it would be

okay to repair that while the dog was

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under anesthesia and he had no idea.

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He had no clue.

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And, and part of it became

from the fact that He thought,

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this is how these dogs breathe.

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So it is normal.

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So we educated him, and we told

him, it's not normal, it's common.

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And this is what this, this kind of

irresponsible breeding is causing.

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Uh, and it's mostly, like, the backyard

breeders, and the puppy mills, that are

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just breeding for volume, and for money,

as opposed to breeding for actual breed

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standards, for proper breed standards.

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Liz Menegon: Correct.

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And integrity.

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And I think that's the heart

of the, the average American.

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So, so here's how this whole thing

started after World War Two farmers

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that had families were suffering.

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And.

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There was the baby boom, people

were buying homes, and you know,

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this is the 1950s and the early 40s.

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So puppy mills actually

originated on farms.

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They used to call them puppy farms.

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They converted chicken coops into housing

for dogs, which unfortunately, you know,

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60 years later, people are still using.

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So, in order to oversee

that, the Department of

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Agriculture was put in charge.

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So, if you had a puppy mill, and

you lived on a farm, and it's the

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1950s, you would register with

the Department of Agriculture.

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Now, let's go to today, with

the internet, the Department of

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Agriculture, who oversees the slaughter

of pigs, chickens, and cows, is

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overseeing commercial dog breeding.

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Therefore, the people that are breeding

these dogs have the same mentality

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and mindset of the people that are

breeding the cows, chickens, and pigs.

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The only thing is, this is a house

pet, but they're not animal lovers.

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They have no interest in the animal.

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They have no interest

in the animal's health.

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And it all starts at that level, the

animals that are going into pet stores.

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Are coming from an environment that

would put myself or you in jail.

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It's legal animal cruelty.

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We would be arrested for those conditions.

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So, these animals that people

are purchasing, they are born

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from mothers that have been fed.

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They, they literally take PVC piping.

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That you could buy at a Home

Depot and dump holes, create holes

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and just dump the food in it.

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So they're given the

poorest quality of food.

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So there is no dental care,

there's no medical care, there's

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a lot of fraudulent documents.

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So what you're getting at a pet

store is just, is a mystery dog.

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You may be buying a Chihuahua.

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But if you've ever seen what a real

standard, what a chihuahua is supposed

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to look like, people are shocked.

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And, and, and we've

done that periodically.

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We've placed a photo of, this is what

a bulldog is supposed to look like.

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This is what we're breeding.

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And it's almost like a

science experiment gone wrong.

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And people don't realize it

is not, it is not normal.

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To see certain breeds, but they are

being bred and overbred and overbred.

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And and this is what is this is what

they're getting is sick animals.

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You know, every breed has its

own inherent issue, right?

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Italian greyhounds have two issues.

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Plain and simple, um, Golden

Retrievers can have hip dysplasia

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or any, um, uh, flat faced dog.

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So you've got that, that

brachycephalic face.

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Right away, you still have issues.

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Pekingeses have issues with eyelids.

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So breeds themselves

have their own issues.

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But when now they're poorly bred.

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And poorly bred and poorly bred.

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It just takes a bad situation

and makes it a lot worse.

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And that is what backyard breeders

and pet stores are selling you.

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Dr. G: And in the concept of how

these animals are kept, like I

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compare, I compare it to hoarding.

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Right, because a lot of these animals

are kept in the same and sometimes even

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worse conditions than animal hoarders

will keep these animals, especially like

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rescue hoarders and exploiter hoarders.

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But the overall difference to me is that

the rescue hoarder and the exploiter

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hoarder Um, you know, they're, they're

categorized as a animal crime, but then

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the way that the puppy mills keep these

animals in similar conditions, it's

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being seen as a business and it's being

legal as a, yeah, it's a legal, legal

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animal cruelty and legal animal abuse.

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Um, even though, again, they are,

they're, they're lacking the five

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freedoms, the five fundamental

animal freedoms in both cases, but

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one is legal and one is illegal.

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One is, and one is very purposeful,

and in some cases, animal hoarders

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are not doing it out of malice.

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They're doing it out of a

mental health condition.

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But we are tougher, we are

so much tougher on the...

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60 year old lady with the 50 cats

that loves all those cats that

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can't see what she's doing is wrong.

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We are a lot tougher on her than we

are on the puppy miller that is abusing

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all these animals just to make a buck.

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Liz Menegon: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's, it's, it's, I I

think it is shameful.

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And I think it is shameful.

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That people are refusing to listen and

take the, , advice of people that know,

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you know, if your doctor tells you

there's something wrong with you and

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you turn around and say, there's nothing

wrong with me and you walk out the door.

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It's the same.

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It is no different.

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Then what people are doing with

buying dogs online or buying designer

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breeds, you know, when you take a

French bull and you breed it with a

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Chinese Crested, you have just given

a dog a lifetime of medical issues.

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You've long gone taken that 15, 000 you

collected, but you've left a family.

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With an animal that will

have a lifetime of issues.

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And it's, it's, it's a backyard experiment

and, If you want something that other

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people think is different, there are

so many beautiful purebreed dogs.

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If you want to show Stopper Dog, there's

a lot of breeds you can purchase.

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Not something that somebody bred

and took so much money from you,

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that in itself should be illegal.

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So, I think there's a lot of dynamics

to why people buy what they buy.

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Um, and I think even with the app, it

asks you questions where people and I've

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attended events representing the app and

people look at each other and they go,

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Oh, gee, you know, we never thought about

shedding, which I have a huge issue with.

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So, you know, you look at people's

reactions and they don't think it's cute.

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It look at that pop up,

look at that adorable dog.

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They click on it and the

next thing, you know.

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They're sending a deposit

into the stratosphere.

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Who knows if they'll even get a dog?

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Dr. G: I think we are, we are

suckers to the word rare, right?

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Yes.

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So people will say, Oh,

look at this rare color.

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Look at this rare breed.

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That's how we end up with the double

merles that are deaf and blind.

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But people still breed them and buy them.

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Because they're so beautiful.

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And we are creating these animals

that go through life, not being

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able to see the world or hear it.

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Liz Menegon: Um,

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Dr. G: we have, exactly,

but they look pretty.

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We have the animals that have very

short legs and it's like, or, uh,

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some of the Basset hounds with extreme

deformities and people are like, Oh,

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look how cute and adorable it looks.

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Yet these dogs are in constant pain

because their legs are not built right.

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So we are, we are kind of in.

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In looking at all of these rarities,

we're really kind of, how do you say,

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encouraging this, this sale, this breeding

and sale of animals that are meant to

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live a kind of a miserable life in some,

in some cases, and not to say that every

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animal that is a different color or a

different size or anything like that

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is going to suffer, but unfortunately,

quite a few of these animals, these

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experiments, end up suffering.

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Liz Menegon: Well, and I

think that's education.

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So people don't realize that

there are breed standards.

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So, we'll just take the American

Kennel Club as an example.

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, there are breed standards.

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So, when you see a French bull,

it's either tan, brindle, or black.

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They're not merle, and they're

not lavender, and they're not

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all these funky, crazy colors.

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And people don't realize that so when,

when I try to address it or do a posting

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and say, okay, there's no such thing as

a Doberman Pinscher with blue eyes and,

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you know, fuzzy hair, it's bred with.

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Um, God knows what people don't realize

there are actual breed standards.

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So, an animal is bred to look

a certain way to sell to you.

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It's no different than, than coming

up with the latest designer handbag.

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I mean, people literally sit

around and go, you know what?

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How about this?

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Let's take a chihuahua and breed it

with a schnauzer and see what we get.

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Let's take a Jack Russell

and breed it with a corgi.

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So there are so many animals you

can buy from a breeder, which we

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can get into that are just stunning.

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:

Um, a toy fox terrier, a Russian toy, uh,

a Pumi is a beautiful dog and it's, it's

366

:

this fuzzy gray and when it puts its ears

up, it's almost got hair like, like poofy.

367

:

It almost looks like it

would be a mix of something.

368

:

But it is a pure breed dog.

369

:

Um, an Azawakh is a beautiful hound.

370

:

So, you don't need to go buy the backyard

experimental dog to have a showstopper if

371

:

that's what your, um, intended goal is.

372

:

Dr. G: I work with a lot of rescues

at a lot of shelters and the shelter

373

:

over population is such a huge problem

and it is because people are getting

374

:

animals that they, they can't care for,

or they don't, they don't know what

375

:

to expect when they're getting them.

376

:

And there's, there's a big push,

you know, I know that a lot of the

377

:

people in rescue hear the word breeder

and they're against all breeders.

378

:

And I understand where that is coming

from because the unfortunate part

379

:

is that there are so many breeders

and most of these are these backyard

380

:

breeders, these irresponsible breeders.

381

:

So, while I would love for everybody

to first get their animals from their

382

:

shelters and clear the shelters out,

there are people that have specific, that

383

:

have specific wants or needs and If you

must get a dog from a, from a breeder,

384

:

then it has to be a responsible breeder.

385

:

And what makes a responsible breeder

is somebody that has a veterinarian

386

:

that's not doing their stuff themselves.

387

:

It's somebody that has all the

certifications as far as making sure

388

:

that the joints are in good health,

that the eyes are in good health,

389

:

that these dogs have the minimal,

uh, chances of having congenital and

390

:

genetic deformities and problems.

391

:

Correct.

392

:

Because we don't want to continue on

with all these, all of these genetic

393

:

problems that we associate with breeds.

394

:

just because they're being

inbred over and over and over.

395

:

So that that's kind of going to bring

us back to how can we keep animals

396

:

from going into shelters and that's

going to be with proper selection.

397

:

And realistically, whether it is a

purebred or a mixed breed, we have

398

:

to make Educated decisions and how

we're going going to get these dogs.

399

:

So let's start with the things that

I think some people don't realize

400

:

and which your app kind of helps.

401

:

Uh, people kind of say consider

which would be things like

402

:

barking and drooling and size.

403

:

So can you tell us the importance

of all of these different, uh,

404

:

parts of the selection process and

picking up what dog you should get?

405

:

Liz Menegon: Sure.

406

:

Well, you know, I think first of all,

there's nothing like having the perfect

407

:

dog that matches your lifestyle.

408

:

Um, now we've been talking here the

whole time, and people don't know this

409

:

or can't see this, but I have this seven

pound Italian greyhound that's been

410

:

sound asleep in my arms the whole time.

411

:

So this works for my lifestyle.

412

:

So what's, I've had the battle,

I'm, I'm the battering ram, I'm

413

:

the one that takes the heads.

414

:

People say all breeders are bad.

415

:

Well, I can tell you that.

416

:

When you get a dog from a breeder who

breeds show dogs, you sign a contract that

417

:

has various things in it, and one of them

is, this dog under no circumstances can

418

:

be given away or brought to a shelter.

419

:

It must be returned.

420

:

So, let's go, let's go

back to the beginning.

421

:

So, when you want to get a dog, sometimes

people don't think about size, energy.

422

:

Everyone loves a corgi.

423

:

There's a trend.

424

:

We also are very trendy in this country.

425

:

The trends now are the miniature

Australian Shepherds, anything

426

:

with a doodle in it, and a corgi.

427

:

, if you download the app, you do have

an option if you'd like to rescue,

428

:

but let's stick with purebreed.

429

:

So, you select purebreed, and you

answer these 12 basic questions.

430

:

Size.

431

:

Energy.

432

:

Drooling.

433

:

Shedding.

434

:

Stimulation.

435

:

Now if you love a corgi,

they love They're a herder.

436

:

They need a job.

437

:

Uh, if you don't want a shedding dog,

Corgis shed, and they shed a lot.

438

:

So, you know, all of a sudden the

dog you had in mind isn't going

439

:

to show up on what is recommended.

440

:

Because once you answer the 12

questions, the algorithm then goes

441

:

through all the dogs recognized.

442

:

by the American Kennel Club.

443

:

It's the same with the

Canadian Kennel Club.

444

:

They recognize some breeds that we don't.

445

:

And it's the same with the app in the UK.

446

:

There are some dogs that are the same,

but they have a different name, or

447

:

they don't recognize breeds that we do.

448

:

So what the app then does is shows you the

results of your profile of what you want.

449

:

In a dog.

450

:

So the things that you want or you don't

want, you will get a list of these breeds.

451

:

It may be a short list.

452

:

It could be a long list, depending

if you want a extra large dog and

453

:

you don't care if it drools or sheds.

454

:

You're gonna end up with

Neapolitan Mastiffs, you're

455

:

gonna end up with Newfoundlands.

456

:

You know anything that's over

the a hundred pound mark.

457

:

But if you're very specific

and you say, Hey, I'm single.

458

:

I live in an apartment, you know, I

want a mellow dog that is, I don't know,

459

:

maybe we'll bark when the doorbell rings.

460

:

If you live in an apartment and

you just purchased a beagle from

461

:

a pet store, because there's

nothing cuter than a Beagle puppy.

462

:

You're gonna, you're probably gonna

end up getting thrown out of your

463

:

apartment because they are barkers.

464

:

So, when you get matched with a breed,

you then click on the image of that breed.

465

:

And you get to read a little bit more, but

the best thing about this app is when you

466

:

click on that, that image again, it brings

you to the breed association website.

467

:

They also call it a parent company.

468

:

So anyone who breeds and shows.

469

:

Either is the president of the club

or a secretary or a director and they

470

:

have their own set of bylaws and one

of those bylaws is you cannot belong to

471

:

the Italian Greyhound Club of America

and be posting dogs for sale online.

472

:

Can't do it.

473

:

. So, you're, you're brought

right to that association.

474

:

Now, the most wonderful thing about

a breed association website is you

475

:

get to read all about the breed.

476

:

You get, they have their own rescue.

477

:

Every breed has their own rescue group.

478

:

You can find out about rescues.

479

:

They also have retired show dogs.

480

:

Now, when you get a puppy, and I can

give you an example, my Italian greyhound

481

:

came from a woman who breeds and shows

Italian greyhounds in Rhode Island.

482

:

There was all the paperwork.

483

:

It is so expensive to show

dogs because they have to

484

:

have all of this testing done.

485

:

So, when you buy from a breeder, their

intentions are breeding for show dogs.

486

:

Now, my dog was too small to be shown,

so she was the perfect house pet.

487

:

My dog was $1,100, which included

her getting spayed and microchipped.

488

:

. I met a woman in New York City who bought

an Italian greyhound from a pet store.

489

:

She paid 5, 000 for an Italian greyhound.

490

:

that also had parvo.

491

:

Now the fact that the dog

survived is, is beyond me.

492

:

But here's a young girl who

probably used a credit card and

493

:

is now deeply in debt for a dog

that was purchased at a pet store.

494

:

So this is just one example of

when you buy a dog from a breeder

495

:

who's a responsible breeder.

496

:

And when a breeder says, I'm not selling

you anything until you come to me.

497

:

So either you fly to Ohio

or you drive to New Jersey.

498

:

They want to meet you.

499

:

They send you paperwork.

500

:

You have to fill out because they may

not even want to sell you a puppy.

501

:

So, you know, I've had, I've

taken a lot of hits from the

502

:

adopt don't shop mentality.

503

:

It's adopt don't shop online,

adopt don't shop at a pet store.

504

:

I'm not part of the problem.

505

:

My dog would never end up in

a shelter because I've agreed.

506

:

that this dog must go back to the breeder.

507

:

So when you see owner surrenders,

most owner surrenders don't come

508

:

from breeders who breed show dogs.

509

:

You have to return the dog to them.

510

:

No questions asked.

511

:

They just take the dog back.

512

:

So that's something

people need to realize.

513

:

I tell people, you know what, Download

the app, see what breed works for

514

:

you, and then, who knows, maybe you

can, maybe you can adopt a show dog,

515

:

a rescue dog, that you are given all

the paperwork for the, for checking

516

:

of the eyes, the heart, um, the hips,

the joints, um, Italian greyhounds

517

:

have a tendency to have epilepsy.

518

:

It is very prevalent in this breed,

so you don't, you know, people

519

:

don't know what they're getting.

520

:

I think everyone should foster a dog.

521

:

Anyone who doesn't own

a dog shouldn't foster.

522

:

Just to see if you want

to be a responsible owner.

523

:

You know, there's an expense

that comes with a pet.

524

:

And when someone turns a pet to

a shelter and says, Well, we just

525

:

didn't realize how expensive it is.

526

:

You have to put more thought into

it because there are expenses.

527

:

.

Dr. G: You know, 24 Pet Watch did, uh, some research about the, where

528

:

animals are coming into shelters.

529

:

And they said that most of the, the

majority of animals that are coming into

530

:

shelters are acquired from the community.

531

:

Meaning, like, backyard

breeders and that kind of stuff.

532

:

As opposed to...

533

:

Uh, rescues and breeders and and some of

that comes from resources So when you're

534

:

going responsible responsible breeders

and responsible shelters because there

535

:

is such thing as responsible sheltering

Are going to try to match the animal

536

:

with the person as opposed to just

saying I want a dog I want that dog.

537

:

Okay, here you go.

538

:

Here's the the adoption

fee or here's the sale.

539

:

Um You know, you have to have some

responsibility in doing that because

540

:

we, we get into this mentality that,

you know, we can get whatever animal we

541

:

want and then expect it to modify its

behavior to what we require from them.

542

:

And that's no, that's not how that works.

543

:

And yes, every animal, every animal

of every breed and even mixed

544

:

breeds, they're all individuals.

545

:

So not two animals are going to

behave in exactly the same way.

546

:

But there are going to be some breed

predilections as far as what they need.

547

:

That we need to be, that we need

to be aware of so that we can

548

:

set the animals and ourselves

for success and not for failure.

549

:

You know, that's, that's one of the,

the problems that I have with the,

550

:

with the pet stores selling animals,

is that it's literally money making.

551

:

So the person goes into the pet store,

falls in love with a dog, it doesn't

552

:

matter what kind of a dog it is, there

is no knowledge of anything like that.

553

:

Um, You know, usually I like the, the idea

that you have to go to somebody's property

554

:

to get an animal so that you can see the

environment where that animal was raised.

555

:

Uh, you know, people that are looking

for purebred dogs, you always want

556

:

to see the parents of the dog.

557

:

You want to see how

they're being care for.

558

:

You want to make sure that

they're not from a puppy mill

559

:

or from a backyard breeder.

560

:

So somebody that wants to meet you

in the parking lot of the mall at 10

561

:

o'clock at night, that's sketchy, right?

562

:

Liz Menegon: With a wad of cash.

563

:

Dr. G: Right, exactly.

564

:

So we gotta, we have to be a little

bit smarter than that and how we are,

565

:

how we are getting animals so that

they're not ending up in, in shelters or

566

:

abandoned or, and, and another problem

that I see is how some people will

567

:

get these animals that are a lot of

work that are great, fantastic breeds.

568

:

And again, even like the, the

rescues, but they don't put the work.

569

:

into them as they're young.

570

:

And then you have this three

month old puppy that is just

571

:

play biting, but it doesn't get

corrected because it's so cute.

572

:

And then by 10 months, it's

escalated from play biting to a

573

:

little bit more aggressive biting.

574

:

And then at that time, they

decide, well, I don't want this

575

:

dog anymore because it's biting.

576

:

And then they dump it into a rescue for

a behavior that could have been helped.

577

:

Um, could have been modified, or the dog

could have ended up in an environment

578

:

where that is more, how do you say, where

it can do what the breed was meant to do.

579

:

Correct.

580

:

So we, so we are just setting, I

mean, overall we are creating the

581

:

problem and we're not doing anything,

anywhere quick enough to fix it.

582

:

Liz Menegon: Well, and again, it

comes down to impulse purchasing,

583

:

putting time into it and thinking,

do we really want to do this?

584

:

And, you know, the public

has to be aware of.

585

:

all the other scams that go on.

586

:

When you see a French bull and

it says for adoption, rehoming,

587

:

and it's 7, 000, they're using the

terminology because in the state

588

:

of New York, if you sell more than

eight dogs, you're considered a

589

:

breeder and you have to adhere.

590

:

To the, um, lemon puppy law,

where if there's an issue they

591

:

can bring it the dog back.

592

:

There's an, they can

manipulate the system.

593

:

So it's actually, you're

actually adopting a dog.

594

:

So, so your listeners need to be

aware if you see rehoming, Adoption,

595

:

and it's not a typical two or three

hundred dollar adoption fee, which

596

:

is generally just to cover expenses.

597

:

Total scam.

598

:

It's a total scam.

599

:

It's just a way to get

around being responsible.

600

:

Um, there's also something that is

being done where you are a puppy mill.

601

:

You are squalor, but you find a

family that will foster a puppy.

602

:

And then when you call, you go and see the

puppy, but they send you to those people.

603

:

So you're, you're like, okay,

well, are you the owner?

604

:

No, no, no.

605

:

I want to see the owner.

606

:

I want to see the parents.

607

:

If you're in that position, then

that dog is from a puppy mill.

608

:

Because if you go to a house

and there's one dog there,

609

:

you're like, this is a puppy.

610

:

Where are the parents?

611

:

It's like, it's like temporary housing

for a dog, because they don't want you

612

:

to come and see where the dog is from.

613

:

So, there are angles, but, but

consumers need to be 1 step ahead

614

:

and there are questions you can ask.

615

:

Um, I don't think Instagram should be

able to have a, a, a main pipeline.

616

:

Um, I don't think Facebook,

TikTok, they're all breeding

617

:

grounds for selling puppies.

618

:

Craigslist no longer let people sell.

619

:

Now it's for adoption.

620

:

But it's 8, 000.

621

:

You're not adopting a

dog, you're buying a dog.

622

:

So consumers need to

accept the fact, right?

623

:

Accept the fact, if somebody tells

you something, they're telling

624

:

you because it's the truth.

625

:

Don't put it aside and

just buy that puppy online.

626

:

If I have a friend and I found

out they bought a puppy online,

627

:

I'd have a heart attack.

628

:

Because they know what I do.

629

:

And they know that that's

coming from a puppy mill.

630

:

So it's all about educating

your listeners, right?

631

:

You stay out of pet stores.

632

:

There are dogs that will

not fit your lifestyle.

633

:

If you're a jogger and you want a

dog and you live in Miami and you

634

:

want a dog that's going to exercise,

why are you going to buy a husky?

635

:

Or an English bulldog that's

gonna drop dead in the backyard.

636

:

You get yourself a saloogie.

637

:

You get a, even a greyhound.

638

:

You know, racing greyhounds

in a New York City apartment.

639

:

Are better than a corgi because they

want to go out, sniff the air and

640

:

go right back and lay on the sofa.

641

:

They have no interest.

642

:

Um, so I think that there

is a huge difference.

643

:

You do a disservice

644

:

when you get a breed that

does not match your lifestyle.

645

:

If I had a Jack Russell running

around my apartment, I would

646

:

have a nervous breakdown.

647

:

But if you can open the back

door and it's running around your

648

:

backyard, because they're pack

animals, they love to dig holes.

649

:

You're letting them do what

nature intended them to do.

650

:

And I think we forget we

want to own something.

651

:

There's something very

interesting about human beings.

652

:

We seem to want to own something.

653

:

Whether it's people who own tigers

and all these bizarre animals.

654

:

Not every animal is meant to be owned.

655

:

But when you do own an animal.

656

:

And it's lifestyle and it's

genetics match your life.

657

:

It's, it's, it's a

wonderful, happy experience.

658

:

It doesn't end up in a shelter.

659

:

And this is what people don't understand.

660

:

They, they're like, la,

la, la, yada, yada, yada.

661

:

And then they go off and they

buy a dog and they said, no,

662

:

this doodle, we did our research.

663

:

No, you didn't.

664

:

You went to a website that looks

like a website, that looks legit.

665

:

You probably even spoke to a puppy broker.

666

:

People don't realize that

there are puppy brokers.

667

:

You're talking to a lady on

the phone who's so friendly.

668

:

She's a broker.

669

:

It's a, it's a middleman.

670

:

It's like booking a

reservation to go on vacation.

671

:

If you want a dog, you go to the breed

specific association, period, period.

672

:

I don't care what it is.

673

:

And then you can go from there.

674

:

You may say, wow, I was

actually matched with a chow.

675

:

I wonder if there are

any chows in shelters.

676

:

Because then the app.

677

:

You can select, um, rescue, answer

the same questions, and it's tied into

678

:

Petfinder, which Petfinder, I wish

their platform was a little different,

679

:

but at least you have an idea, and then

you may be able to find something in a

680

:

shelter, but every breed association show.

681

:

does have their own rescue as well.

682

:

So you can rescue the

shelters are inundated.

683

:

That's a, but you're seeing a

backlash, not from COVID returns.

684

:

You're seeing people

that are experimenting.

685

:

And dumping and also dumping adult dogs

say, wow, this is way too much work.

686

:

The only way to correct

it is to educate yourself.

687

:

It doesn't matter.

688

:

40 percent of people purchasing dogs.

689

:

We'll purchase a dog that their friends

or a relative owned or a neighbor.

690

:

So if your neighbor has a Labradoodle

and you're like, what a great dog.

691

:

Oh, call our breeder.

692

:

You've now just purchased

another backyard breeder dog.

693

:

So there are statistics on buying habits.

694

:

But you may want a dog that has

absolutely would never work for you.

695

:

And there is a question about, do

you have other pets, dogs or cats?

696

:

Some some animals are not

good with other animals.

697

:

So I think it's you do a

disservice To get the wrong animal.

698

:

Dr. G: Yeah, we want to we want to

manage behavior too much with pills.

699

:

And that is that is another pet

peeve of mine when people will

700

:

have a dog that is an active dog.

701

:

And it's like, well, it's

anxious, or it's, you know, I

702

:

need something to calm him down.

703

:

It's like, no, you need to take the

time and exercise, you need to take the

704

:

time and take him for jogs or for runs,

or put him in doggy agility classes.

705

:

Like, we can we cannot

solve the animal behavior.

706

:

Problems with just popping

animals with pills.

707

:

And the other thing is age.

708

:

A lot of people want a puppy, and

they don't understand all the work

709

:

that comes with having a puppy.

710

:

I've always been very lucky that The dogs

that I have gotten have been puppies,

711

:

but I work in an environment where my

dog can come to work with me every day.

712

:

It's socialized, it sees a lot of

people, it can be walked outside, uh,

713

:

frequently throughout the day, so I

have the resources to raise a puppy.

714

:

properly, right?

715

:

As far as socialization, as far as, um,

potty training and all of those things.

716

:

But not everybody has the time

to raise a puppy and that's okay.

717

:

So there are places where you

can rescue or purchase animals

718

:

that are a little bit older.

719

:

And then you have an animal

that you, you kind of know what

720

:

you're getting and it's not as

721

:

time consuming in the training process.

722

:

So you can still

723

:

give an animal a home, give an animal

a good home without running the

724

:

risk of not raising them properly.

725

:

And then, you know, having them end up

with behavior problems or other issues

726

:

that, that end up in the shelters.

727

:

Liz Menegon: And again, that's education.

728

:

You know, I commented on, um, a photo on

Instagram where they gave grandma a puppy.

729

:

Well, as lovely as that is,

Grandma can't take care of a puppy.

730

:

So there are wonderful, older, smaller

breeds that just want a lap to sit

731

:

on and live the rest of their lives.

732

:

You know, a lot of older dogs

that you see in shelters.

733

:

Um, come from owners who have passed away.

734

:

No arrangements were made.

735

:

No family members wanted the dog.

736

:

So, it was, I don't know, a family member,

the attorney, whoever was in charge of

737

:

the estate, just dumped it in a shelter.

738

:

Dr. G: So people need to understand

consumers need to understand

739

:

the power that they have over

the supply and demand, right?

740

:

So if we, if we stop the demand.

741

:

Then the supply has to dwindle and

and the sad part of it is that there

742

:

are going to be some animals that are

kind of stuck in the middle, while,

743

:

you know, the, the demand goes away

that supply has to go somewhere.

744

:

Um, so, and that's what I think

we're overall afraid of is

745

:

what's going to happen to the.

746

:

Thousands hundreds of thousands

of animals stuck in puppy mills

747

:

during that during that part.

748

:

But realistically, we

have to put a stop to it.

749

:

And the only way to do

it is to be educated.

750

:

Stop purchasing from from poor

sources from puppy mills from

751

:

pet stores and do our homework.

752

:

And when doing homework.

753

:

There's this thing called

confirmation bias, right?

754

:

Some people do their homework

based on what they want to hear

755

:

based on what they want to find.

756

:

So instead of saying, you know, it's

a, uh, it's a Dalmatian good for me.

757

:

It's more of, I want a Dalmatian.

758

:

Are people like me okay with Dalmatians?

759

:

And then they will find like the one

or two cases where a Dalmatian is

760

:

perfect in that, in that scenario.

761

:

And they're like, oh, there it is.

762

:

Um, so we have to, we have to know

in doing research, we have to do

763

:

research from appropriate sources.

764

:

People need to talk to

their veterinarians, talk to

765

:

proper trainers, not the...

766

:

You know, run of the mill people that call

themselves trainers, they need to speak

767

:

to people that are experts in the field

prior to making these decisions so that

768

:

they can make a good educated decision

and can end up with a lifelong member of

769

:

their family, not uh, a disposable being.

770

:

Liz Menegon: Hands to

Paws has a spokes dog.

771

:

named Stripe.

772

:

And Stripe is our spokes dog

against buying puppies online.

773

:

And I recommend anyone to go

to our website, which is www.

774

:

hands2paws.

775

:

com , you will see Stripe, um,

the ad for Stripe that the girl

776

:

responded to, and Stripe's DNA.

777

:

And...

778

:

Cassandra, who is the owner

of Stripe, was so gracious.

779

:

She bought him online.

780

:

He came from Ohio, as a matter of fact.

781

:

He was half...

782

:

Chinese crested and half shih tzu.

783

:

So she drives her buffalo to Ohio,

picks up this adorable dog that they

784

:

said looks like Yoda, great with kids.

785

:

Non shedding all the buzzwords

to get your attention.

786

:

Adorable looking dog.

787

:

I would've purchased him myself.

788

:

She did a D n A, he turned

out to be, I have to remember

789

:

offhand now, um, 30% shihtzu.

790

:

He was, um, Yorkshire Terrier,

Poodle, um, Chihuahua.

791

:

And 7 percent Chinese Crested.

792

:

So we made him, we made him

the spokesdog because he

793

:

represents that online purchase.

794

:

He is not a Chinese Crested Shih Tzu.

795

:

He's a mix of four other dogs.

796

:

So then it leaves the conversation open

to, well, wait a minute, that's fraud.

797

:

How many people are being ripped off?

798

:

So again, you have one simple,

you think talking about buying

799

:

puppies online is a simple thing.

800

:

It opens up a whole dialogue of fraud.

801

:

And theft never buy a dog online.

802

:

Beware of the adoption rehoming scams.

803

:

Adoptions are not 7, 000.

804

:

Rehoming fees are not 7, 000.

805

:

You are selling dogs.

806

:

You are buying a backyard breeder dog.

807

:

Dr. G: Yeah, we see, uh, that concept

here in Ohio with puppy flippers, right?

808

:

That's right.

809

:

People that get dogs, that get dogs and

then they say, we rescued this litter.

810

:

And we are finding them homes, and then

they're under the guise of a rescue,

811

:

but they're not really a rescue,

because they're selling these dogs.

812

:

And, and somewhat relatively inexpensive,

because they will sell them for three

813

:

to five hundred dollars to match

kind of what rescues are going for.

814

:

But all they're doing is just buying

litters, like the people that have

815

:

the signs of free puppies or whatever.

816

:

They'll go, they'll get them,

and then they'll flip them.

817

:

So again, as consumers, we have all

the power, so we have to be educated,

818

:

we have to know what we're doing, and

we have to advocate for the animals,

819

:

because in the end, that's what it's

all about, it's about animal welfare,

820

:

it's about proper care of these animals.

821

:

I, I've actually been part of

investigations with HSUS with their

822

:

puppy mill campaigns and they are amazing

campaigns because they do undercover

823

:

work to expose how these animals are

kept, the cruelty that goes in both

824

:

the, the puppy mills, as well as the pet

stores that are selling these animals

825

:

and how the consumers undergo fraud.

826

:

So, you know, I know that, you know, HSUS

is doing a good, a good job at attempting

827

:

to educate people as far as the puppy

mills and not purchasing from them.

828

:

Um.

829

:

And trying to crack down on the

backyard breeders, that's where that

830

:

horrible hundred list comes from, right?

831

:

Just a compilation of all the

things, because we have to, again,

832

:

as consumers, we have to go in,

eyes open, and understand what the

833

:

problem is, understand how we are...

834

:

perpetuating this problem and then figure

out together a way to, a way to stop it.

835

:

And it's really not going to stop

until we stop buying dogs from,

836

:

from these horrible sources.

837

:

Liz Menegon: I wouldn't buy a car online.

838

:

I hate buying shoes online, let

alone a living, breathing creature.

839

:

Dr. G: Yeah, that's a,

that's a good point.

840

:

Like, I won't buy jeans online.

841

:

I go to the store to buy jeans

because they all fit different.

842

:

It doesn't matter if it's the right

size, if it's the right brand, if

843

:

it's something that I've been buying

for years and years, I'm going to

844

:

go to the store and try the clothes.

845

:

That's right.

846

:

So, yeah.

847

:

It's, it's a, it's a really good point.

848

:

We don't know what we're getting

when we, when we are purchasing.

849

:

So yeah, it all starts with education,

uh, consumer power, and then, uh,

850

:

supporting laws that make sense,

uh, supporting advocacy groups

851

:

that are looking to, to better the.

852

:

the well being of animals in general.

853

:

, hopefully this has given

people enough information.

854

:

Um, and enough education again,

not just the information that we

855

:

have talked, but also resources

to look and and become educated.

856

:

And we all have the power

to make a difference.

857

:

So, I mean, I want to thank

you for taking this time.

858

:

and sharing your thoughts with me

and having this discussion about how

859

:

we can help promote responsible pet

ownership and decrease the number

860

:

of animals that are surrendered.

861

:

And, uh, to everybody that's listening,

I hope that this has been helpful

862

:

and I want to thank you everybody for

listening and thank you for caring

863

:

and thank you Liz for being here.

864

:

Liz Menegon: Thank you and thank you

for giving me an opportunity to try

865

:

to get it's a lot of information,

but at least we can get it out there.

866

:

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.