SMART Shelters with guest Dan Ettinger
Dan Ettinger, host of The Animal Control Report, joins Dr. G to discuss SMART animal shelters and its goal to Save More Animals Responsibly Together.
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Transcript
Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.
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:This is your host Dr.
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:G and our music is written
and produced by Mike Sullivan.
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:Today's guest is a repeat
offender, Dan Ettinger, host
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:of the Animal Control Report.
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:Thanks for being here.
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:Dan Ettinger: Wow, I don't know if
that's a good title or a bad title,
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:but I, I love being here and I
appreciate, uh, just everything you're
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:doing on this show and I'm glad we
can, we can set up times to chat.
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:So this is great.
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:DrG: Thanks.
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:So for anybody that has not listened to
any of these episodes or doesn't follow
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:your podcast, you want to give a quick.
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:What do you do and who you are?
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:Dan Ettinger: Yeah.
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:So I guess we'll start with, I am, it's,
it feels so weird saying this, but I
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:was like, I have to figure out a way
to properly account for what I do with
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:the side company that I have,
which is keep it humane.
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:You could find that at keep it humane.
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:com.
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:And I guess I'm the CEO and
president of said company.
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:And really it's focused on a
couple of different things.
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:Obviously the podcast that we have.
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:Which is the animal control report,
the podcast network that we have, which
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:is the keep it humane podcast network,
which includes the animal welfare
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:junction and a few other podcasts.
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:Um, so, and the other part of that is
like doing consulting and teaching.
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:Um, I like to do that stuff on the side.
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:And, and then other piece under that
is the smart shelter concept that
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:you and I actually came up with.
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:DrG: And we're going to be talking a
little bit about that, um, just because,
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:well, actually, do you want to let our
listeners know about this case that
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:we were discussing a little bit ago?
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:Dan Ettinger: So.
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:I did a quick Google search
to like determine what's out
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:there in the news these days.
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:And I found this article about
Greenville County's animal shelter.
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:And this is from the post
and courier in Greenville.
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:So the Greenville County animal
shelter was once no kill.
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:A surge of dogs has changed that.
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:And so the article really, and I'm not
going to read it word for word just
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:because it's a fairly Fairly long article,
but I'll, I'll jump in really quick.
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:So it gives some backstory, uh,
Greenville each morning staff at
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:Greenville County's animal shelter start
the day with all their kennels full,
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:more strays arrive as the day passes
and an increasingly large numbers.
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:Let me try that again.
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:And in increasingly larger numbers.
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:Over the years, Shelley Simmons has seen
both worse and better, only to lose ground
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:in the shelter effort to keep the no
kill status it worked hard to achieve.
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:When she began as the director
in Greenville County Animal Care
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:in 2007, the shelter took in more
than 20, 000 animals by year.
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:By 2019, that number was below 9, 000.
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:The shelter was making strides.
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:Programs like spaying and neutering
intended to reduce the number of
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:animals coming into the shelter.
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:The shelter was making strides.
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:Programs like spaying and neutering
intended to reduce the number of animals
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:coming into the shelter were working.
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:She said in an interview with the Post
and Courier, as a result, the number
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:of animals being euthanized declined
nificantly from about half in:
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:To about 9 percent in 2019 below
the 10 percent qualified the shelter
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:for the no kill status, a goal that
Simmons had long worked towards.
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:And then she talks about the pandemic
hitting in:
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:And now their numbers
not being below the 10%.
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:And so that's kind of the,
the gist of the article, which
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:we're hearing more and more.
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:And, I actually have some personal
experience with Greenville County and I'm
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:grateful to say I was there earlier this
year in:
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:and consulting and talk to them about just
the different options of, of, I would say
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:like using terms like no kill sounds great
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:on the outside and save them all
sounds great from like a marketing
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:standpoint, but is that truly
what represents our shelters?
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:And so we did a session on smart,
I did a session on smart there
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:and it was received fairly well.
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:And you know, it just goes back
to this arbitrary goal and number.
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:I don't know why it's become so
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:popular or such a trend in our industry.
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:And it's led us to things of like,
staff, I think it creates an issue with
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:staff because staff feels overwhelmed,
uh, trying to get numbers down.
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:And the reality is no one wants to
euthanize, but we have to respect
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:and understand the fact of like,
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:These situations are fluid.
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:Every city, every County, every
animal shelter is different.
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:And so, you know, they may have
been able to achieve that status
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:for several years, but maybe there's
different growth in their community.
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:Uh, people are moving in or more
people got animals during the pandemic.
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:And now they're starting to
see some of those animals that
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:didn't get spayed and neutered.
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:And let me tell you, I'm actually
friends with, uh, they're one
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:of their veterinarians there.
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:And, uh, they, they have a facility
at the shelter that is dedicated to
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:spaying and neutering pets in their
community and it's free to people
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:that are on government assistance.
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:And I got to sit there and kind
of watch that process for a day.
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:And it's amazing.
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:I mean, they do close to 10, 000 spay and
neuters a year and it's almost still not
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:enough as we can see with their numbers.
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:Now, the other part is They're a big
county, and maybe some of those animals,
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:unbeknownst to them, come in from other
counties as well, so it's very possible
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:that some of the animals that they're
seeing in their county maybe not,
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:are maybe not specific to Greenville.
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:DrG: So I have to say, you know,
when I was growing up, I never
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:went to the Humane Society.
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:And the reason I didn't go to
the Humane Society is because it
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:was, a very high kill facility.
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:And to me growing up, you know back then I
wanted to be a veterinarian I really liked
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:animals or whatever and I did not want
to go to a place That I felt guilty that
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:I was going to walk in and if I picked
one animal I was saving that one, but I
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:was leaving the rest of them just to die.
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:Right.
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:So that was my perception as, as I was
growing up, but then I grew up and then
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:I realized that not every shelter is
like that, that that's not what happens.
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:And that sometimes it's a necessary evil.
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:Right.
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:Um, so my, my perception has changed.
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:I have evolved.
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:Um, so One of the, one of the things
I guess that I do want to talk about
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:is there, there has been a shift,
you know, I think that way back when
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:there was more killing happening in
shelters, and, and shelters and animal
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:control facilities and dog pounds
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:did not seem to be looking
for ways to fix the problem.
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:They just had a job to pick them
up, bring them in, and then if they
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:couldn't come out, euthanize them.
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:So how about we talk a little bit
about the history of how, Oh, kind of
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:like the kill movement started because
it, it started long, long time ago.
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:Dan Ettinger: I'm glad you asked
because one of my favorite articles
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:and not favorite in the aspects
of like, I really think there's
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:articles like my fit, like, right.
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:It's my favorite from understanding the
history of, of our profession, meaning
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:like the animal control officers and such.
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:And so this blog called sniffing the
past, uh, it was actually written
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:by Chris Pearson and he is a senior
lecturer of about 20th century history.
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:And what he did is he went
back and found something called
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:the 1811 law concerning dogs.
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:And this law concerning dogs was very
specific to the public safety aspect
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:and how, you know, rabies was a concern.
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:Uh, aggression was a concern because
back in the day, these dogs just lived
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:outside and would just roam the streets.
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:And so they might be in packs, uh,
they might have behavioral problems.
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:And so what he found is they
basically put a bounty on dogs.
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:And what it says is that, you know, there
was a, first off there was a tax, a 3
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:tax to dog owners, and then the bounty.
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:or the law allowed you to
basically kill any dog found
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:outside the lamppost district of
the New York metropolitan area.
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:And then they would bring these
bodies in and collect a bounty.
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:Um, and they would kill
them very barbarically.
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:And I was, there's a few books
that I've read about it as well.
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:Um, and when you, when you think about
like some of the acts that Like a
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:person would literally bludgeon dogs
to death, uh, horribly, or if they
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:made it at the shelter and they weren't
claimed within like 24 hours, they
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:would get loaded into iron cages and
then just dunked in the East river,
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:where they would be held underwater
for approximately seven minutes.
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:And in any case, though, it
sounds very almost impossible.
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:Any case where a dog came up alive, it
would then get bludgeoned, uh, to death.
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:So that's like barbarism.
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:If that's a word, we do that a lot
on our podcast, we just make up
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:words, but that's so barbaric in the
aspects of like, When these no kill
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:phrases come out, it's like, no shit.
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:We're no one's killing.
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:Like we're not killing.
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:We're euthanizing, which
is ending suffering.
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:Like there's a difference between
killing, which is like this barbaric
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:bludgeoning murdering of an animal
to like humanely euthanizing an
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:animal with care and compassion.
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:And there's a huge difference there.
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:Um, and it's just, it's, as you can tell,
I get frustrated just talking about it.
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:DrG: And, and again, like there is
a difference between that and kind
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:of like the needing to, to euthanize
and the, and the movement at the
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:very beginning seemed to be going
in a really good direction, right?
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:With the, with the, um,
A-S-P-C-A and, Caroline Earl
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:Dan Ettinger: White.
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:Yes.
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:And then George Thorndyke, angel, all
those folks were very, um, very like,
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:active in just raising awareness, uh, RA,
ra raising, raising, raising awareness
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:in, um, in those, in that moment.
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:So, yeah, it was.
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:DrG: Yeah, so it was kind of nice
seeing that, you know, these people
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:became involved and they saw that the
killing of dogs, um, was just useless.
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:It was barbaric.
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:And then they wanted to change things
into where animals would have a
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:place as a shelter, as a safe haven
that they could be brought into.
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:And then You know, be adopted out.
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:And then in the case that they did
have to be euthanized for whatever
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:reason, then it would be done humanely.
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:Dan Ettinger: Yeah.
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:DrG: So then we go from there to then
the idea of no, not killing anything.
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:And I, and I, what I really dislike
about the term no kill is the word
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:kill, because I think that is an
inflammatory word, it's, it's a word
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:used to create a reaction, right?
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:We are saying that we're killing animals.
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:And I think that that's used a
little bit on purpose just to,
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:just to get the public worked up.
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:Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.
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:I think it's, I mean, it's genius.
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:I, in the aspects of like marketing,
we are in a time and age where it's
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:all about catching the attention of
people to fundraise, to ensure that
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:there are funds to Do some of the great
projects that some of these organizations
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:do, but it's a misleading term.
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:And it, to me, takes us away from
the true, um, the true issue at hand.
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:DrG: And terms that are important.
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:And I think that, I mean, there's a
lot of misuse of terms or sometimes
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:people don't understand definition.
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:So like when I was, Uh, looking into
smart, one of the things that I looked
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:up was kind of like what is the purpose
of a humane society, the purpose of
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:an animal shelter, the purpose of,
uh, uh, I say animal control and
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:the terms are misused often, right?
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:Because humane society tends to be,
uh, uh, an organization that promotes
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:humane ideals and treatment of animals.
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:So not necessarily an animal shelter, but
there are plenty of animal shelters that
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:use the word humane society within their
name, where, you know, the animal shelters
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:is going to be more the establishment
that houses animals temporarily,
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:and then they have to make the decision
to euthanize homeless animals, uh,
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:if they're unsuitable for adoption.
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:And then when we get into animal control,
You can talk about this better than I
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:can, because I'm not an animal control
officer that the, the purpose of an
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:animal control officer is public safety.
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:Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.
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:DrG: So when, you know, when, when
some of these organizations are making
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:decisions on not euthanizing, especially
my, my pet peeve is aggressive animals.
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:You know, I, I feel bad for animals
that, that are sick, that are
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:injured and that kind of stuff.
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:But, When we are making decisions with
animals that are extremely aggressive,
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:especially when they have a long bite
history or severe bite history, then
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:we are forgetting the fact that we have
to protect other animals and the public
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:from aggressive or dangerous animals.
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:Dan Ettinger: And, and that's like
the, like, that's, that's what blows me
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:away is like, that was the foundation.
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:Of all of this and it doesn't mean that
we can't change I'm totally open to change
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:but like the all the reason that we're
here is public safety and from that birth
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:The animal shelter or the humane societies
or whatever title we want to use but it
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:was it was created and born because of
the the need for These, these pets that
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:were causing an issue in the community.
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:And then some of the innocent ones ended
up as strays in our animal shelters.
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:And, you know, back then we didn't
have, there was probably more purebreds.
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:And so some of the purebreds would
be adopted out and therefore you
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:have the animal shelter aspect.
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:DrG: Yeah.
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:So, I mean, we went from
indiscriminate killing to a humane
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:approach to euthanasia, to now.
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:Trying to to do a complete elimination
of euthanasia from shelter.
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:Dan Ettinger: Mm hmm
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:DrG: Some of the issues that I personally
have is the the requirements and the
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:Say the false expectations that it
leads As you as you mentioned earlier,
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:you know, we're talking about this 10
percent well a 10 percent may be very
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:attainable to humane organizations that
are limited intake, humane organizations
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:that are in affluent areas, but me
personally, I travel to a lot of rural
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:areas here in Ohio with the Rascal Unit.
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:So we're going to a lot of places that
lack veterinary care that lack resources.
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:So humane organizations in
those areas, it's impossible to
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:hold them to the same standard.
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:As other organizations, when,
when they just literally lack the
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:resources, they lack the community
to be able to adopt these animals.
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:They lack the resources to again, treat
animals with mental or physical illness.
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:So we are somewhat setting
them off for failure.
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:And then the public sees that and they,
you know, same as when I was little,
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:they're going to look at them and be like,
well, I don't want to deal with this place
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:because they're just killing everything.
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:I want to go somewhere where
they're not killing anything.
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:And in the end, it hurts the animals.
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:Dan Ettinger: And that's what people
don't understand is like, we can sit here
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:and have what we would consider an open
admission animal shelter that can't refuse
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:animals coming in because they're, um, You
know, whether it's bound legally through
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:their state laws where it's, you know,
an open admission shelter, it may be, um,
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:it may be through like their department
of agriculture or things of that nature.
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:And then it's like, look, like you
can't turn anything away, but these,
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:these open or limited admission
shelters that operate as a nonprofit,
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:or somehow we're able to get the, their
county to adopt a fact that, no pun
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:intended, that they can be limited with
their admission, it's all it's doing.
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:It's it's, it's like, uh, uh, what are
they like robbing Peter to pay Paul?
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:Is a saying that you might hear or like
chopping a head off of a two headed
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:snake or, you know, there's just like,
it's probably not the greatest analogy
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:to use on an animal welfare pod.
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:But my point is like, we're
not impacting the community the
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:right way by closing our doors.
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:And that was something we just talked
about on our latest episode on our podcast
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:was, was that just that thing right there?
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:It's like, we have to be able to
provide the resources necessary in
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:our communities to see a difference.
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:And if we don't, then this problem
is going to exist forever, forever.
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:We can be creative and try to like foster,
what is it, foster, find her to foster,
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:like, that'll help a little bit, sure, um,
or in ramping up our RTOs, that'll help
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:a little bit, but at the end of the day,
if people's animals are still reproducing
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:as the way that they've been for the
last hundred years and more, we're just
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:going to end up in the same place that
we are today, if not in a worse place.
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:DrG: Yeah.
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:And, and what happens is.
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:You know, it's kind of like a no win
situation for people that find themselves
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:in the position of needing to surrender
an animal or euthanize an animal, right?
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:Because we see them asking for
help and saying, Hey, I found this
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:dog, found this dog on the street.
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:I found this cat or my cat had a litter.
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:My dog had a litter.
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:I can't have it.
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:So I need a place to be
able to take them to.
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:They're given no resource.
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:They're given no ability to surrender
that animal, to put him in a safe space.
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:And they're told it's your responsibility.
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:So unfortunately, there's a lot
of crazy people in this world.
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:And once you make it their responsibility
and you take away all their options,
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:then horrible things happen, right?
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:Um, there was a case from
Kingston, Pennsylvania.
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:Uh, it says a man testified that
he has strangled his ailing dog to
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:death as a last resort after seeking
help from several animal hospitals.
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:which, uh, reportedly required
cash up front to see the
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:dog, and an animal shelter.
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:He claimed that the dog had stopped eating
and was vomiting and experiencing severe
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:diarrhea after eating dirty diapers.
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:The dog reportedly vomited in a turn
away facility's lobby and workers
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:there told the man to take the dog
to a veterinary hospital, which he
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:said he had no money to pay for.
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:They allegedly threatened to
call the police if he didn't
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:take the dog and leave.
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:So is it okay that this
man strangled his dog?
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:Absolutely not.
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:Like, I am not telling people go do that.
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:But you take some, you know, this is
somebody that is seeing his dog in
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:pain, he's seeing his dog sick, he
he's trying to make his dog not suffer.
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:And he has no resources available.
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:And this is what he was pushed to do.
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:You know, it is not okay.
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:Dan Ettinger: It's not.
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:And I can share just a brief story of
something in a sense, somewhat kind
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:of similar, I guess you could say.
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:So the last shelter I worked at,
we operated in a County, but in our
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:County, we had, um, another, we had a
nonprofit that also provided services.
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:And we, for whatever reason, we hadn't
figured out how to do this the right way.
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:But if someone found an animal in the
nonprofits jurisdiction and brought it
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:to our shelter, we would always ask,
Hey, can you bring it 15, 20 minutes
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:down the road to the appropriate shelter?
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:That way, you know, everything is just
everything is done the correct way.
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:We're able to get it, you know,
the fees correctly if there's
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:reclaimed fees or if there's prior
history, those types of things.
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:So there were, there was that type of
stuff going on and like we had a cut.
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:And so oftentimes when I was working at
that shelter, we would have a customer
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:customers come in and they'd get so angry
that we wouldn't just accept the dog.
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:And I get it.
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:They're at an animal shelter.
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:They just found a stray.
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:They're trying to do the right thing.
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:And then they're told no.
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:But recently at a case
where there was a person.
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:And the dog was very active on the
leash, which was, it wasn't even a leash.
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:It was like a ratchet strap
that you use to tie down stuff
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:in the back of your truck.
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:And I, he was being kind
of rude to our, our team.
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:And so they asked me to
come up and talk to him.
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:And so I went and talked to him.
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:And I was just trying to deescalate,
have a good conversation with him.
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:And the dog was rowdy
going back and forth.
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:And I was just like, Hey, you
know, I'm just trying to explain
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:like where we're coming from.
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:If you're able to do this for us, great.
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:If not totally understandable, we'll
take the animal and then we'll call
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:that agency to come pick it up.
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:And this person had none of it and just
let the dog go right in our parking lot.
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:It took off towards our, all of our
kennels are outdoor kennels here.
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:So it, uh, took, took off after,
you know, The noise that it heard.
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:And then I went and got the dog, but
this person was so unreasonable, but
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:I could imagine that same energy.
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:if it was an animal you're
trying to relinquish because you
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:can't take care of it anymore.
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:Like, I could see why people, not that
I would, not that I condone it, but I
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:could see why people would act that way.
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:DrG: Yeah, especially people, like if we
talk about people with like mental health
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:disease or mental health conditions or
again, I mean, they don't, they don't
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:have the funds, they don't have the
resources and dumping animals at the door
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:of shelters is happening more is Somebody
finds a dog and then they're told, just,
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:just release it where you found it.
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:It'll find its way home.
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:No, that's, that's not how that works.
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:Right.
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:And we, we certainly don't want to end
up with street dogs like other countries
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:do where they have higher incidence
of rabies, higher incidence of bites.
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:You know, stray dogs and stray cats
are completely different things.
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:Cats like hide, they run away.
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:Hey, they do build their
own colonies or whatever.
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:You don't really hear about cats,
packs of cats coming down the down
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:the street and attacking a person.
379
:But in, in other places you do
hear that with packs of dogs.
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:Dan Ettinger: And, and that's, that's,
that's where I get kind of confused
381
:about like where, where we want to
go and where our focus should be.
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:Because I think like we should be unified.
383
:There should be kind of some harmony,
if you will, throughout our industry.
384
:And it doesn't feel that way.
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:It feels like it's very.
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:siloed and isolated from each other.
387
:And you can't, it's almost like
you can't have a differing opinion.
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:So like where I stand, I believe
professionally and personally.
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:If we want to achieve a no kill status,
if we want to not have to euthanize
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:anything, but 10 percent for health
health concerns and behavior concerns,
391
:then we have to put all our time,
focus and energy on creating resources
392
:and access to care for our community.
393
:If we did that, then through attrition,
we're going to get to no kill.
394
:Like that is practical as practical
can be, but having that opinion seems.
395
:That it creates this like negative space
with me and, and, and organizations
396
:that their whole brand are, is no kill.
397
:And I, I just, I don't understand that.
398
:I wish I've asked them to like, let's do
a panel discussion at their conference.
399
:Like, let's open this up.
400
:And anything that jeopardizes
the integrity of your
401
:fundraising is scary, truthfully.
402
:And I think that, you know, and I know
saying this is probably no surprise to
403
:anybody, but it's like, we all know that
those are brilliant marketing terms and
404
:it, it, it jeopardizes that integrity
when people understand no kill is this
405
:nice idea, but it never, it will never
exist unless we focus our time, effort,
406
:and resources on creating access to care.
407
:DrG: So speaking of marketing
and how words matter, the
408
:smart shelter came about.
409
:So yeah.
410
:Right.
411
:So how about.
412
:You, you tell our listeners
how you started with the whole
413
:idea for smart sheltering.
414
:Dan Ettinger: Well, and thank you
for being so humble about that.
415
:I mean, you had a very
big part in this too.
416
:Um, I will say it kind of came about
417
:a lot of different ways for me.
418
:And so I was a patrol patrol field
services or animal control officer,
419
:however you would like to define
it, um, for several, several years.
420
:And the common thing that I would hear
from people, whether it was a golden
421
:retriever puppy or an American bulldog or
a French bulldog, um, you're not going to
422
:take it back to the shelter and kill it.
423
:Are you, are you going to kill it?
424
:Are you a no kill shelter?
425
:Are you going to kill it?
426
:So there was one instance
specifically that really made
427
:my, made me lose faith in people.
428
:Dr.
429
:G.
430
:It's just like, we can't be
that ignorant as a community.
431
:So I got called to a school.
432
:It was a grade school, middle
school, I guess, actually.
433
:And anytime I would go pick up a
stray, I intentionally would bring
434
:my microchip scanner because I wanted
to show people how that worked and
435
:how we were focused on the RTO.
436
:How could RTO, meaning return to owner
for people that aren't in the industry.
437
:Um, how could we get, The dog back
to the owner as quickly as possible.
438
:Cause if we don't bring it into the
shelter, it's just better for everyone.
439
:It's better for the pet.
440
:It's better for the person.
441
:And it's better for our staff.
442
:And I'm walking into this
school, got microchip scanner
443
:in hand and I'm just do to do.
444
:And I see that it's a French bulldog.
445
:So I'm super excited.
446
:And I'm like, it's a high probability
that this dog has a microchip.
447
:It really is.
448
:So I get in there and there's
two, two teachers there.
449
:And the first thing out of
one of the teacher's mouth is
450
:Are you going to kill it?
451
:DrG: Are you going to kill it?
452
:Dan Ettinger: That was the
first thing out of her mouth.
453
:I literally dropped the microchip
scanner, broke the screen, because
454
:all the screens break every time.
455
:Don't tell my old boss this.
456
:Sorry, old boss.
457
:Um, I was just like, are you,
what are you talking about?
458
:I was like, you're an educator.
459
:You're, and I, I'll be honest, I was
a little frustrated at this point.
460
:I mean, I clearly dropped
the microchip scanner.
461
:I was just like, what are we doing here?
462
:And so I tried to have a car, like
22 hindsight being 20, 20, I should
463
:have had a different conversation.
464
:I should have not dropped the scanner.
465
:Cause that was dramatic.
466
:I did it.
467
:And then I tried having a conversation and
she was just completely like turned off to
468
:the idea of just have like turned off to
the idea that any other thing could exist.
469
:And I was like, look, first
off, this is a French bulldog.
470
:It probably has a microchip.
471
:Our goal is not to euthanize.
472
:This is not how you see us in the
movies that were some like unempathetic,
473
:untrained, unhealthy dog catcher.
474
:Like we have compassion, we care, we
want to do what's best for the people.
475
:We want to do what's best for the animals.
476
:And so she like stormed out.
477
:This lady was hot.
478
:I don't know why she was so mad,
but then her friend or the other
479
:teacher was actually super reasonable.
480
:And I was like, if you
could like, here's my card.
481
:If that person ever wants to have
like a conversation, um, I'd be
482
:happy to, like, I apologize for me
being dramatic, but I was upset.
483
:And, um, so that got me thinking.
484
:And then Colorado, I was there for a
long time and they do some great stuff.
485
:I feel like Colorado is one of the,
and I know they are based on the ALDF
486
:for those that don't know what that is.
487
:That's the animal legal
defense fund, uh, the ALDF.
488
:org.
489
:They do a yearly power ranking,
almost of, of best States versus
490
:worst States in animal welfare.
491
:And Colorado is always in the top 10.
492
:They do some great stuff.
493
:There's some great people in Colorado.
494
:I'm very, um, proud to say that I, that's
where I got my start in animal welfare.
495
:It has absolutely shaped me in many
ways, and so I'm grateful for that.
496
:They came up with this term, a
group of some of the, I would say,
497
:stakeholders in the state that really
are immersed, immersed in animal welfare.
498
:Um, we're, they were strategic because
in 20, I'm going to get the dates wrong.
499
:2018 somewhere in there, uh, the
County of Pueblo, which is South of
500
:Denver at about two hours created,
and they were a no kill state.
501
:And so the nonprofit that had the
contract there lost their contract,
502
:and some group that was not
503
:skilled or experienced enough came
in and ran the county shelter and it
504
:it was horrible The state had to come
in you can google it the state had to
505
:come in And actually do some research,
not research, excuse me, do some, um,
506
:like heavy ticketing and impounding.
507
:And they actually like, they had
to shut them down and then agency
508
:that operated it before it came
back and secured the contract.
509
:And, uh, it was a mess, but I think
part of that no kill County led to
510
:these, these stakeholders in Colorado
saying we need to come up with
511
:something clever and they came up
with socially conscious sheltering.
512
:Great concept, horrible
name, great concept.
513
:Horrible name.
514
:And so I was around that at the time.
515
:And I think the, you know, if I'm
not involved in something, um, I
516
:tend to like, if I, if I really like
think that it's something that I want
517
:to have some input on, you know, I
tend to like create other avenues.
518
:And so the idea came to birth,
uh, smart, which thanks to Dr.
519
:G we, we are, we were able
to really get our acronym.
520
:Um, perfect.
521
:I don't know how else to say it.
522
:And so.
523
:SMART stands for Saving More
Animals Responsibly Together.
524
:And so the whole ethos of SMART is to lose
any arbitrary number that we have to hit.
525
:Um, it creates teamwork and collaboration
throughout animal shelters, and
526
:promotes not only like a great phrase.
527
:Hey, are you a no kill shelter?
528
:No, we're actually a smart shelter.
529
:And let me tell you what that means.
530
:So it's a great comeback to
this, uh, no kill terminology.
531
:And kind of a very fun fact for me
because I'm somewhat of a historian
532
:when it comes to animal welfare is,
533
:there's still a shelter today in
Denver called the Dumb Friends League.
534
:Uh, there's an organization in, in the,
in Europe called our Dumb, uh, it's also
535
:called the Dumb Friends, it might also
be called the Dumb Friends League, but
536
:it was for, they were for, um, horses.
537
:Uh, so two of those exist,
which is really cool.
538
:But what people didn't
understand is in our current day.
539
:Um, what they don't understand is
back then in the:
540
:for those that couldn't speak.
541
:And so there's publications called, um,
our dumb animals, which was a basically
542
:a magazine put out by George Thorndike
angel, um, where they covered just
543
:really the humane education aspect of
what we were doing in animal welfare.
544
:And so it's neat to know that
we've come from dumb being a very
545
:prominent terminology to this concept.
546
:Or the birth of SMART, um,
to represent what we should
547
:be doing in animal shelters.
548
:DrG: What I like about the acronym, and
I broke it down, I gave a presentation
549
:a little bit ago, and I said, you know,
the saving more animals because we're
550
:replacing arbitrary numbers, right?
551
:So I explained it to
the, to the participants.
552
:We are saving more animals.
553
:So if you're in a rural shelter, and you
are at a 40 percent life release rate, and
554
:you're able to make changes that increase
you to 45, that's a 5 percent improvement.
555
:So we're not comparing you to
anybody else, but yourself.
556
:I like to tell people,
worry about yourself.
557
:Right.
558
:So, yes, we want to see what
other, what other people are
559
:doing so that we can get better.
560
:But it's about what are
you doing to get better?
561
:I like the term responsibly because
we're recognizing that it's about
562
:the safety and, and wellbeing of both
the animals and of the community.
563
:And together, because
it's everybody, right?
564
:All stakeholders, not just the shelters.
565
:This is about the veterinarians.
566
:This is about the community.
567
:This is about everyone that is involved.
568
:So SMART, let me say this, the SMART
acronym just literally embodies everything
569
:that we should be aiming to in, you
know, in the fight to help animals.
570
:I
571
:Dan Ettinger: couldn't agree more and
You know, we created a private animal
572
:or smart shelter group on Facebook where
there's quite a few people already in it.
573
:And you know, I'll be honest,
my bandwidth is so thin that
574
:I really wish I could do more.
575
:And this is basically me putting
out the bat signal, by the way,
576
:speaking of bat signals, dude, do
you know there's a bumblebee bat?
577
:It's literally the size of a bumblebee.
578
:Well, anyway, there's a thing called the
bumblebee bat and I'm really impressed
579
:by it, but putting out the bat signal,
if anyone is listening and wants to
580
:take on some more responsibility as
like a volunteer role, please hit
581
:me up, man, Daniel@keepithumane.com
or just go to keepithumane.com.
582
:Um, I would love the help cause
we're really, we, we need to
583
:do is push this out there.
584
:And take some of that pressure
off of shelters that feel
585
:like they have to save 90%.
586
:Get at it, like stop.
587
:We don't, what we have to do is treat
animals with humane care treatment.
588
:Keep a public safety, um,
aspect of our community.
589
:But all this other shit, please, like,
we don't need to just hit this 90%.
590
:That's, that, to me, that doesn't
show me that you're successful.
591
:What shows me that you're successful
is you have active programs in your
592
:community trying to help people help
animals, that you're creating things
593
:like low cost vaccine clinics, low cost
spay and neuter clinics, doing things
594
:like the rascal unit does with for you,
like that is how you judge success, not
595
:off of a 90 percent live release rate.
596
:So you got a plaque.
597
:Whoop tee doo!
598
:What are you gonna do?
599
:Hang it up in your office and be
proud that you didn't put down an
600
:animal that's been suffering and
living in a shelter for 600 days.
601
:We taught, I know I get a
little amped up on this.
602
:We talk about the five freedoms and
it got adopted, no pun intended into
603
:the animal shelter world, but it
wasn't, it wasn't created for that.
604
:It was created for livestock
in the UK, but it sounds cool.
605
:It sounds nice.
606
:Well, one of those five freedoms is
freedom to express normal behaviors.
607
:So if we're adopting this idea of five
freedoms and we have, we're warehousing
608
:animals in kennels, is it allowed to,
to have normal behavior because of that?
609
:Absolutely not.
610
:DrG: Yeah.
611
:And from, from myself, from a forensic
veterinary forensic side, you know, we
612
:deal with cases of neglect and cruelty.
613
:And I, and I think that there are
some cases of neglect that are
614
:just because people are assholes.
615
:But then there are cases of neglect that
it's because people do not have resources,
616
:they do not have access to care.
617
:So, how, how great would it be to help
not only improve the quality of life of
618
:animals of owned animals by providing
affordable and accessible care and
619
:then also decreasing the number of
animals that are suffering because
620
:the owners don't have these resources?
621
:And to all the people that say
well if you can't afford an animal
622
:don't have it get out of here
because that doesn't exist, right?
623
:If we were to say that I heard the
other day on on another podcast
624
:about how 60 percent of Americans
live paycheck to paycheck.
625
:So basically, are you telling
me that 60 percent of Americans
626
:should not own a dog and a cat?
627
:Because if that what we're saying,
we're saying that we can adopt
628
:our way out of this problem.
629
:Well, we can adopt our way out of this
problem with 40 percent of the population.
630
:Are we going to be putting like 30
dogs and 50 cats inside of every
631
:home in the every wealthy home
632
:in the United States?
633
:Like that's not going to happen.
634
:So, you know, we, we talk about
decreasing shelter intake.
635
:Well, let's decrease it responsibly.
636
:Let's find out what are the reasons
why some of these individuals are
637
:surrendering their animals and see
if there is a way that we can help
638
:keep that animal in their home.
639
:Because the reality is that
there are quite a few people that
640
:surrender animals because they're
looking for a better opportunity,
641
:better life or something for them.
642
:And they don't, if they have it their
way, they would keep that dog or cat.
643
:So, you know, being able to, to provide
these services, to keep animals in the
644
:homes again the word is responsibly.
645
:Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.
646
:Yeah.
647
:I mean, I, I think, you know,
there's little things that plague our
648
:plague our numbers, like people that
rent, you know, a lot of landlords
649
:don't allow pets where they're,
you have to pay a pet rent deposit.
650
:So there are a lot of hindrance, but
the reality is here's the difference.
651
:Is, you know, back in the 18,
19 hundreds, early 19 hundreds,
652
:pets were not necessarily seen
seen as part of the family.
653
:It wasn't the same as it is now.
654
:And I think we have to really recalibrate
and understand that, you know, pets,
655
:though they're still considered property
property, they're sentient beings
656
:and they have become family members.
657
:And so we have to find ways just
like with the one health model, and
658
:we talk about that in smart being
like able to show that connection.
659
:Like let's help everyone together.
660
:If we can vaccinate a person and a pet
at the same time, we're doing good.
661
:Like we're making, we're making headway.
662
:And so I just think it's really
important that we continue to push
663
:that narrative forward, that I
it's, it's mind boggling to me.
664
:To see like how popular it's become.
665
:And if look, I'm not knocking anybody
for feeling good about not euthanizing.
666
:I want that to be clear again, no one
wants to euthanize, but we have to
667
:also understand, like we are, we're
a profession that has obligations.
668
:And so it's important that we
understand sometimes we have
669
:to make those hard decisions.
670
:And, you know, it, it's, it, I don't,
I don't know how else to say it.
671
:It's just, we shouldn't shy away
from it if that is going to be the
672
:best outcome for the community or
the best outcome for the animal.
673
:DrG: And we just have to,
again, we have to collaborate.
674
:We have to work together and we have
to watch what we say about others
675
:because there are so many groups that
may inadvertently say, well, we are,
676
:are this kind of shelter, and they
don't understand that then that is
677
:making other organizations look bad.
678
:And, you know, they, they all need help.
679
:And if we're, if we're worrying about
some of these smaller shelters that
680
:don't have resources, euthanizing
too much, does it make sense to
681
:decrease the The amount of adopters,
the amount of support that they get.
682
:Absolutely not, because what are we doing?
683
:Then we're causing them
to need to euthanize more.
684
:We need to be able to bring those
organizations to the public and say,
685
:hey, they're having these issues.
686
:These are the problems that are having.
687
:How can we as a community
help this shelter improve?
688
:You know, we want, we want
higher life release rates.
689
:We don't want to be
euthanizing a ton of animals.
690
:So it needs to be everybody's problem.
691
:Everybody has to come together.
692
:It can not be just that individual
shelters problem to solve.
693
:Dan Ettinger: I would completely agree.
694
:Um, I, I'm curious to
see how things unfold.
695
:You know, I know that.
696
:Um, best friends created no kill 2025.
697
:So I don't know if that means like
they need to be no kill by:
698
:or they, um, have until the end
of:
699
:But it's like, I, I feel like
they'll do anything that it
700
:takes to make the numbers.
701
:Cause they don't want to have
to be like, uh, we're going
702
:to now shoot for no kill 2030.
703
:I just feel like the best thing to
do in my opinion is just drop it.
704
:Just move on, create a new slogan, like
help people help animals and then create
705
:programs not only focused on like the
programs are focused on providing access
706
:to care, but also like encouraging our
next round of veterinarians, our next
707
:vet techs, you know, making an incentive.
708
:Like incentivized so we can get
these people in the programs like
709
:that to me is really important
710
:DrG: Yeah, that's one of the things
that we are doing We have a mentorship
711
:program and the whole idea of it is
to bring veterinary students at early
712
:stages Right first second and third year
students to come in and see the work
713
:that we're doing so that hopefully we
can get them involved in this community
714
:service and And them wanting to give
back to the community, you know, kind
715
:of going back to how veterinarians
used to be, you know, veterinarians
716
:were highly regarded by the community.
717
:Um, so we want to bring,
we want to bring that back.
718
:And I'm not saying bring back when
veterinarians made zero money because
719
:they didn't charge appropriately
for what they did, but you can, you
720
:can still make a very decent living.
721
:And provide affordable, accessible care.
722
:I mean, I say it because I live it.
723
:Yeah, it's, it's what, it's what we do and
it's what we're trying to teach students.
724
:So I guess also in, in that way, if
you're a shelter, if you're a humane
725
:organization, reach out to the vet
schools, reach out to students, engage
726
:them, get them in and let them get
their hands dirty so that they see
727
:how rewarding it can be, and they
can see what opportunities there are.
728
:Right now,
729
:you only have like big corporations
reaching out to students telling them
730
:"hey come work for us, and this is
what you're gonna get" you don't see
731
:a lot of other organizations doing
that So, you know it it's out there.
732
:The the opportunities are out there.
733
:We just need to You know to go get them.
734
:Dan Ettinger: Yeah, and I think you
know getting people look we all want to
735
:have some sort of unity and camaraderie
within our our In our lines of work,
736
:whether it's, um, the work that we do
in animal welfare or whether you work
737
:for a big team like Costco, like there,
there's going to be some sort of like
738
:unity and connection amongst that.
739
:So it feels good to be part
of a no kill community.
740
:And I, I respect people
that want to have that.
741
:All I'm saying is you can be part
of this smart community and not
742
:have to worry or deal with that.
743
:Oh, I have to, we have to every, every
month, make sure our numbers are at 90.
744
:Like we just heard a story where a
shelter refused to euthanize four cats
745
:that were suffering because it would have
threw off their numbers for the month.
746
:And so they waited for the
following month to do it.
747
:That we're, we're basically,
that's basically animal cruelty.
748
:What are we doing?
749
:Like, what do we can't do that?
750
:DrG: Yeah, it's sad.
751
:And it is sad that that happens.
752
:And it is also sad that.
753
:Some organizations are not being
transparent and they're not actually
754
:releasing their kill rates, their kill
numbers, or are making different, how you
755
:say, um, requirements for what counts as
kill versus no kill, because they need
756
:to stay within, within those numbers.
757
:So, uh, and, and again, I think that
the community has a big, a big part in
758
:it because the community expects these
shelters to be within that percentage.
759
:So, if If the public understand what
things mean and why things are done, um,
760
:and start being more supportive, I, I
believe that we can get to, to that no
761
:kill idea, but in a very responsible way.
762
:Dan Ettinger: I agree.
763
:And I think we have to
just change the narrative.
764
:And not focus on no kill.
765
:And again, through normal attrition, by
creating those programs, we'll get there.
766
:I really believe that, but we have
to, we all have to work together and
767
:focus on the access to care element.
768
:Uh, and therefore, you know, that's
the, to me, that's the most important,
769
:important part and the take home that
I have is like, figure out a way.
770
:That we can promote spay and neuter
in our communities, promote, you know,
771
:folks that make maybe can't afford
veterinary care and are in the process
772
:of possibly losing an animal through
an investigation to find ways to get
773
:them that, um, asset aspect of care.
774
:DrG: Yeah, absolutely.
775
:So for anybody out there that is
interested in learning more about
776
:smart or becoming part of the
smart movement, what can they do?
777
:Dan Ettinger: So probably
the biggest thing is to join.
778
:The Facebook group, the smart shelter,
Facebook group, uh, reach out to me
779
:through Daniel at keep it humane.
780
:And if you want more information,
but the, at the end of the day,
781
:all people really have to do is
just start using the terminology.
782
:Um, they can, I can send
them a logo if they want it.
783
:If they want to print out the smart
logo and use it at their shelter,
784
:they're more than welcome to, um, you
know, it's, I have a different format.
785
:So if they need it for certain
marketing things, uh, I could send it.
786
:There's like, there's no cost.
787
:We're not asking for anybody
to like pay anything.
788
:We just want people to know that
they're supported and they don't
789
:need arbitrary numbers to make them
feel like they're doing a good job.
790
:DrG: And that's what I like about it.
791
:It's, you know, it's, it's completely for.
792
:For helping, right?
793
:It's not for helping ourselves
is for helping others.
794
:Dan Ettinger: Absolutely.
795
:DrG: Awesome.
796
:Well, well, thank you so much for
spending this time and for sharing
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:information and for getting me involved
in the SMART movement, because it's been
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:a fun ride and I'm looking forward to
where it's going to take us from here.
799
:Dan Ettinger: You know, it's, uh,
it's not just about me being smart.
800
:It's about surrounding
myself with smart people.
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:So I appreciate all your help.
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:It helps a lot.
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:DrG: Fantastic.
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:Well, everybody that's out
there, thank you for listening
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:and thank you for caring.
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:Dan Ettinger: Keep it humane!