Episode 65

full
Published on:

21st Jun 2024

Puppy Mills in Ohio with Mark Finneran

What is a puppy mill? Mark Finneran, Ohio State Director for the Humane Society of the United States shares information about puppy mills, their horrible practices, the problems with the current laws and what advocates are doing to help both the dogs and consumers.

Did you know that Ohio is the 2nd state in Commercial Dog Breeding and Broker licenses, second only to Missouri? This is not something that Ohioans should be proud of, and it is up to advocacy groups, government entities, and consumers to put a stop to this practice.

Please help us spread the word by liking, rating, and sharing this episode. If you live in Ohio, please consider signing the petition to Governor DeWine or sending him your own message about ending puppy mills.

Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcript
DrG:

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today's guest is Mark Finneran,

the Ohio State Director for the

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Humane Society of the United States.

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Welcome to the Junction, Mark.

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Mark Finneran: Thank you so much, Dr.

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G.

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I'm very excited to be here.

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Appreciate you having me on.

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DrG: Oh, I'm glad that you're

here to talk about, especially to

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talk about this important topic.

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But before we get into the nitty

gritty, how about you let our

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listeners know about your background?

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What your experiences have been

and what has brought you to the

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position where you are today?

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Mark Finneran: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So as you said, I'm the Ohio

State Director for the Humane

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Society of the United States.

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But my background really is in policy,

state government and politics, right?

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When I was in college, I was a political

science major here at Ohio State and

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thought I wanted to go into campaigns

and that world, uh, worked on a couple

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of statewide campaigns here in Ohio.

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And then transitioned to working as

a legislative aide in the Statehouse.

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And I think it was really that experience.

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I mean, I always considered myself

to be an animal lover growing

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up, but maybe not an animal

advocate to the extent I am today.

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And it was my experience working

at the Statehouse around public

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policy in a variety of policy

areas, from education to healthcare.

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One of my big takeaways from that

was, you know, if you don't advocate

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for yourself, nobody else is

going to advocate for you, right?

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And so for animals, they're always at a

disadvantage because they cannot stand

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up and speak for themselves, right?

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So we are so lucky to have

organizations like the Humane Society

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of the United States and others,

and of course the generous people

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that support those organizations.

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To allow animal welfare to be represented

at the negotiating table when public

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policy is made because it's so

important, you know, again, every other

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interest is in there, um, negotiating

to make sure that they are benefiting

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from whatever laws being passed.

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Nobody's going to speak up and

say, well, what about how's this

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going to affect the beavers?

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Right?

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Unless somebody is sitting at that table

and and bring that bring that point up.

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So.

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That's kind of my role, um, as

the State Director for the Humane

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Society of the United States.

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Primarily, I'm a lobbyist.

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I'm at the State House

working with legislators.

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Policymakers, um, legislative staff,

to try to make sure that we can pass

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legislation that helps animals and

prevent bad bills that's going to

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impact animals in some way, right?

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And that is related to, um, companion

animals, cats and dogs, but we also work

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on wildlife issues, farm animal work.

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everything in between.

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If it impacts animals and it's related

to public policy, we work on it.

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Um, I do that both at the

state level and locally.

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We also have a federal team in D.

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C.

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that's focused on, um, federal lobbying.

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DrG: And it is so important because I've

always been like, you know, the kind of

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person that is like, I hate politics,

I hate law, I hate all this stuff.

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And then as I have worked more with

animals, especially with animal neglect

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and cruelty cases and that kind of stuff,

I have seen the importance of the need.

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of advocating at those levels, you know,

like me helping an animal helps that

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animal, but me helping advocate at that

level then helps many animals, right?

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Mark Finneran: That's exactly right.

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I mean, I always tell people,

I don't blame you, you know, if

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you're jaded on politics, right?

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But no matter what you're working on,

um, public policy and politics has got

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to come into play at some point, right?

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So you might as well be engaged.

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You might as well pay attention.

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Um, and you're, you're absolutely

spot on with your point.

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Um, You know, anybody who works

with direct service for animals as

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a veterinarian or with a rescue or

humane society, I think it's natural

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to feel frustration of like, you

know, we're doing the best we can for

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the animals that come in the door.

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But why do they keep coming in

the door for the same reasons?

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Right?

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And that's what policy hopefully

begins to address is those root causes

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that can help lead to better outcomes

and, you know, make things better

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for the folks that are providing

service for animals on the ground.

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DrG: And as I'm learning little by little,

it is frustrating because things don't

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always go your way and it's really easy

to think, well, I'm just going to give

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up because clearly nobody's listening.

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But I have also learned the importance

of continuing and this actually case

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that we're going to be talking about

is, goes to that point of, you know,

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things don't always go the right way,

but then we just keep fighting to,

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to, you know, make something happen.

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Mark Finneran: Yeah, you

know, you're exactly right.

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It can be very frustrating and you never

know, though, what's going to turn the

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tide and when you're going to have an

opportunity to really make a difference.

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So it's just continuing on and looking

for those opportunities that might be

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unexpected, but can be really impactful.

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DrG: So talking about this issue with the

puppy mills, I don't know that all of our

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listeners are aware of what the problem

with puppy mills is and then leading to

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what we're going to be talking about.

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So can you give a little bit of

background on history on this issue?

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Mark Finneran: Yeah.

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So I, I think a good place to

start is kind of, you know,

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what is a puppy mill, right?

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That's a question I get from

legislators and the public all the time.

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And the truth is, it's in the

eye of the beholder, right?

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Because to some people, any large

scale dog breeder, is a puppy mill,

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um, just inherently because once you

get to a certain number of dogs, you

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know, you can't, you can't name all

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large scale breeding operation, right?

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And over time, these dogs just

become numbers on a spreadsheet

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means to an end, a unit for sale.

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For HSUS, especially when we look at

puppy mills, It's a large scale breeder

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that is clearly cutting corners that

is sacrificing the health and welfare

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of the dogs under their care in order

to maximize their profit, right?

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And unfortunately, we see that

quite often, both in Ohio and

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other states across the country.

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And historically Ohio is a state

that has a lot of dog breeding

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operations in general and with that

comes these puppy mills, right?

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So that's been a historical challenge

for us as a state and as time has

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gone on we've tried various means to

kind of reign the puppy mill industry

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in, but progress has been slow and as

we'll talk about today, you know, we're

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still fighting this battle, right?

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So for a little bit of background,

uh, In:

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a law that put into law standards

of care that commercially licensed

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breeders in the state have to follow.

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And this is really just the basics.

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It's access to clean food and water.

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It's an hour of socialization

or outdoor time a day.

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It's the things that you and I

would consider to be the bare

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minimum for any dog or puppy, right?

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But unfortunately, we've seen

breeders time and time again failing

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to meet even these modest standards.

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And one of the great things that has come

out of this, um, this law in Ohio is the

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fact that we do have inspectors on the

ground that are actually going in and

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inspecting commercially licensed breeders.

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And, you know, we have, there's ways

that that system could be improved.

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We only have five inspectors for the

entire state of Ohio, which is not enough.

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But by and large, I think the

inspectors themselves do a pretty

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decent job of getting out to these

facilities and documenting violations.

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The problem we're seeing is that

the enforcement on the back end, um,

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it's just not up to snuff, right?

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And that's what we're

going to talk about today.

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DrG: So, I mean, realistically, what's

going to be the difference between a

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puppy mill and an exploiter hoarder?

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Like, is there any, any difference, right?

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Mark Finneran: Yeah.

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So, you know, a puppy

mill is a business, right?

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They're in it for the profit and, you

know, make no mistake, they're, they're

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doing pretty well for themselves.

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I mean, You know, these individual

puppies, if you're selling them

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direct to a consumer, they can be

sold for thousands of dollars a piece.

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And so it has become

big business over time.

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These operations have become pretty

built up and industrialized in a

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way that has had You know, some good

things have come with that, right?

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Like we've seen some improvement in

the 10 years or so that we've had

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inspections at commercial dog breeders.

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I think the baseline standard of care has

gotten a little bit better, but at the

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same time, you know, it does become more

of an industry where these dogs are just

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a means to an end and a way to make money.

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DrG: And what are going to be

the main problems that you find?

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With, like, the health issues and

conditions of these dogs in puppy mills.

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Mark Finneran: Yeah, so it really

does start with the basics.

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Dogs being kept in wire cages that are

not great for their paws, as you know.

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Dogs in cages that are

simply not being cleaned.

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Dogs that don't have access

to clean food and water.

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Um, beyond that, what we've seen,

especially in the past year, There

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have been a lot of issues with breeders

that are doing their own tail docking

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and dewclaw removal surgeries, right?

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And that was a big battle here

at the statehouse because under,

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in the Ohio revised code, it

says all surgical procedures must

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be performed by a veterinarian.

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Somehow that has been interpreted in a way

that allows breeders, you know, legally,

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under law, under administrative code, To

do their own procedures specifically for

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tail docking and do car removal because

those are considered cosmetic surgeries.

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As you can imagine, as a veterinarian,

I'm sure you know this very well, you

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know, these are not procedures that

laypeople are necessarily qualified to do.

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And right now, all the licensed

breeders need is just an instruction

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manual from their attending vet

on how to do this stuff, right?

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Unfortunately, and this is no surprise,

but it is tragic, in:

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a ton of stories of breeders using

toenail clippers, You know, hoof

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pick, trimmers, stuff, anything,

you know, that you can imagine to do

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these tail docking and dewclaw removal

surgeries, um, with the consequences

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that you would think, think to follow.

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So it really is all over the board.

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I know the Ohio Department of Agriculture,

who administers this program, they

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say the most common violation that

they find is is just not getting a

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physical from other dogs, you know,

after they've been bred one time

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before they're bred the next time.

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And so nobody's even getting eyes or

hands on these dogs in between breeding

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cycles, which is incredibly concerning.

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DrG: One of the issues that I have

with this, I mean, I have issues

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with the whole thing, right?

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But with the whole calling it, not

a surgery because it's cosmetic.

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I mean, if we look at it from

the human medicine perspective,

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a facelift is cosmetic.

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However, a facelift needs to be done

by a licensed medical professional.

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And so, you know, just, just

saying, well, it's just cosmetic.

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It's not surgery.

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You're still cutting through skin.

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You're still cutting through bone.

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You're still doing

things that are surgical.

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You know, in nature.

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Mark Finneran: Yeah.

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I mean, your, your vet techs can't even

do a tail dock or dewclaw removal, right?

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DrG: Yeah, that's correct.

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And veterinary technicians

have to go through school and

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they get an associate's degree.

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So it's not like a veterinary

technician is just somebody that

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you pick off the street and you just

train them how to, you know, hold

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animals and play with puppies all day.

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These are people that are trained

in anesthesia, in surgeries.

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Like there are some surgical

procedures that they're allowed to do.

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And yet this so called

simple cosmetic procedure.

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If they do it, they

can lose their license.

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Mark Finneran: Exactly, and all a

breeder needs to do is go to, go to ODA,

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apply for a commercial breeding license

and somehow they're qualified to do

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surgeries that vet techs who, like you

said, have dedicated, you know, time

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and schooling to the care of animals

themselves are not licensed to do.

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It really is, uh, kind of

unbelievable to me that that's

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where we're at here in Ohio.

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DrG: Yeah, no, it's really, and

then the problems that I have with

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this so called instruction manual.

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First of all, you can just.

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It's not cookbook, you know, like

they're not, it's not a recipe to

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follow, but the, these instruction

manuals allegedly give the commercial

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breeders how to do the procedure and

then how to administer proper analgesia,

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how to, how to do proper sedation,

antibiotics and that kind of stuff.

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But.

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How are they supposed to do these

things when they don't have access

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to any of these things because

they're not medical professionals?

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Mark Finneran: It reminds me of like

when you have a project around the

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house and you go to YouTube and you

just like type in, you know, how

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to change a light bulb or whatever,

but it's surgery on an animal.

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It's, it's incredible to me that,

um, yeah, that's kind of where we're,

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we've landed on this issue where,

It's actually legal for them to do

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this stuff, and the only time they

get in trouble is when they use these

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outrageous tools, um, like toenail

clippers that are not actually approved

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for them to be doing these surgeries.

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DrG: And one of the things, you know,

is the fact that, okay, well, they

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may be allowed under these rules.

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However, what they're doing is

in essence illegal, if they cause

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harm to the animal, then they can

be prosecuted for animal cruelty.

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So it just seems like contradictory laws.

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Mark Finneran: Yeah,

you know, you're right.

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Um, that's the argument we tried

to make in front of the Joint

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Committee on Agency Rule Review that

ultimately approved the rule that

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allows breeders to do this stuff.

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Um, and to be honest,

it's still something that.

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I spent some time thinking about of

how we got to this point where a law

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that says surgeries shall be performed

by a veterinarian to carving out two

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specific procedures, you know, do

tail docking and do call removal.

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Those words do not appear

anywhere in state law, right?

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They were arbitrarily cut out and given

to the breeders to allow them to do this.

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Another counterexample here

is ear cropping, right?

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That's a cosmetic procedure.

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That is not allowed under this rule,

but, but that to me, that's completely

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an arbitrary district distinction.

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I mean, ear cropping is just, I guess,

considered to be a bit more painful or

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difficult to do, but those same things

apply to tail docking and dewclaw removal.

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DrG: Yeah, just because something may be

less difficult doesn't mean that it's not.

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Plus the, I mean, one of the reasons

why some veterinarians and groups

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fight technicians being able to do

certain procedures is not because

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of the procedure itself, but because

of the potential complications.

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What if something happens?

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What if the animal goes into arrest?

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What if additional drugs are needed?

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Where if there's a reaction?

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So, you know, there are reasons

behind it for not allowing Any

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procedure really to be done.

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Mark Finneran: So we've seen the

tragic outcomes that can happen when

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breeders are doing their own surgeries.

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Right?

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In 2020, a dog actually died at a

licensed breeding facility after a

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breeder did an in house dental cleaning.

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Right?

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And we'll never know exactly

what happened in that situation

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that led to that dog's death.

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Mhm.

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But it speaks to exactly what

you were just talking about.

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You need a veterinarian on hand

to deal with unexpected outcomes.

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Things happen when you're

doing surgery on animals.

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DrG: Yeah.

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And then with the rules, as far as, you

know, the visits, you know, how the amount

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of time in between visits and that kind

of stuff, realistically, if one of these

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breeders does a procedure, a botched

procedure, and something happens to the

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dog, nobody's going to know about it.

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Mark Finneran: That's

one of the big concerns.

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Uh, and we hear this from rescues

and humane societies that take

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in dogs from puppy mills, right?

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There's ways for breeders.

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If they have a dog that they

don't want inspectors to see, they

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can get it off site, and it will

never really appear on the record.

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It will never be seen by

a state inspector, right?

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And the reality is there's groups that are

just being inundated with calls from the

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same breeders week after week after week.

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You need to take this dog.

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You need to take this litter

that I wasn't able to sell.

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And that's a, you know, Another huge piece

of this puzzle that I think, you know,

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when people think about puppy mills and

why they're wrong, of course we start

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with the dogs at these facilities, but

it's the trickle down effects on the

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entire animal welfare community that is

just devastating with puppy mills that

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sometimes I think goes underreported.

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DrG: Yeah, and it can be so costly

because The rescue groups that we

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work with that are constantly getting

animals from puppy mills, it's not like

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they're bringing us a dog that only

needs spayed and neutered and gone.

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They often need really

extensive procedures.

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They come in with what we

consider trash mouth, right?

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Like they need multiple extractions,

antibiotics, pain medication.

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They have mammary tumors.

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They have other problems secondary to the

negligence that they suffered through.

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So instead of these rescue, you

know, a lot of people say, well,

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why should a rescue charge 300 for

an adoption, 500 for an adoption?

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Well, because sometimes they're paying

up to 800, a thousand dollars just

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to get these dogs into good enough

condition to be able to be adopted.

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Mark Finneran: Exactly.

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A lot of times rescues are taking

a financial loss when they take

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in puppy mill dogs because of the

veterinary care that's required.

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And there's that side.

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And then there's the behavioral side.

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You hear all the time about dogs

that are just emotionally shut down

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because they've never been socialized.

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They've never been anything more

than just like a breeding dog.

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Right.

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And so it's both the medical

side, the behavioral side.

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to get an animal to the point where it's

ready to kind of start that new life, to

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join a new family and have a happy ending.

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And it can be so taxing for not only

the animals, but also these rescues.

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And then, you know, an hour

later, they get another call about

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another dog that's getting dumped.

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And I don't blame them for being

overwhelmed because it does feel like.

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You know, it's just like a

nonstop, um, assault of, of

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dumped dogs from puppy mills.

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DrG: Yeah.

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And then sometimes they, they won't

dump only to the rescues, right?

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Like they do these, these auctions to

get rid of animals to just unsuspecting

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people or, or even other breeders

that want to just exploit them more,

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you know, to the end that they can.

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Mark Finneran: It can

be a very ugly industry.

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And, you know, when you said, talk about

unsuspecting consumers, nobody goes out

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there trying to buy a puppy mill dog.

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Right.

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And nobody advertises a puppy mill dog.

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So ultimately, you know, every consumer

that is buying one of these puppies,

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um, coming from these puppy mills,

you know, they're, they're victims in

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this whole situation as well, because.

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You know, there's ways to do due diligence

as a consumer, but it can be difficult,

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especially when you're being told, Oh,

this is a licensed, inspected facility.

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You know, you have faith that that

really means something about the

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quality of where this is coming from.

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And one of the arguments we've made

to regulators and network makers is it

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should mean something when a breeder

is licensed by the state of Ohio.

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But right now, You know, it doesn't matter

what you do because you'll continue to

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get licensed year after year after year.

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DrG: Yeah, and that is a really

important point because as you said,

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nobody wants a dog from a puppy mill.

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Many people say, I don't

support puppy mills.

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And if you say, Oh, this dog was from

a puppy mill, you always get that

358

:

reaction of, Oh my God, poor dog.

359

:

Yeah.

360

:

They suck.

361

:

They're horrible.

362

:

But these are the same people that are

going to pet stores and buying dogs that

363

:

are coming from puppy mills because the

people selling them the the dogs are.

364

:

The first question that

the person will say is.

365

:

Is this dog from a puppy mill?

366

:

And then they're told, no,

it's not from a puppy mill.

367

:

And then the, the consumer

is like, oh, okay.

368

:

Thank God, because I want to

make sure that I'm not supporting

369

:

puppy mills and yet they are.

370

:

Mark Finneran: And that question

usually comes after the consumer has

371

:

kind of fallen in love with that puppy.

372

:

Right.

373

:

And so when you're told no, no, mom

and mom and dad are, you know, home on

374

:

the farm and they're happy and they're

running around, you want to believe that

375

:

because this is your new family member

that you're excited to welcome in, um,

376

:

and have become part of your family.

377

:

So there's kind of this, you know, I think

it's the reason we see scams happening

378

:

in the puppy industry in general.

379

:

Like you hear about people buying dogs

online that, that never exists, right?

380

:

These are inherently, on some level,

an emotional decision to add a member

381

:

to your family, add a companion

animal that's going to be living

382

:

with you for hopefully a decade plus.

383

:

It's not like buying

a refrigerator, right?

384

:

So we need to have protections for

both animals and consumers to make

385

:

sure they're not being ripped off.

386

:

DrG: Yeah, and you know, as a forensic

veterinarian, I have evaluated some cases

387

:

of, of neglect by, by pet stores and

by the breeders that are selling them.

388

:

And I am seeing records of, yeah,

USDA inspection was good, but then I'm

389

:

looking further in into their state

inspections, and I'm seeing lots and lots

390

:

of complaints from the state inspection.

391

:

So there's a little bit of a disconnect

sometimes between the USDA inspection

392

:

and the, and the local inspections.

393

:

Mark Finneran: That is true, and

it's a trend we've seen as well.

394

:

And it can happen both ways, where

the state records will be clean,

395

:

but on the USDA inspections, you'll

see very concerning violations.

396

:

And And then it happens vice versa

where USDA inspections come back

397

:

clean, but the state is documenting

issue after issue after issue.

398

:

And part of that comes down to there are

different standards that they're kind of

399

:

that their inspectors are looking for.

400

:

But, you know, to me, it

does speak to the value.

401

:

of having multiple levels

of oversight, right?

402

:

Because even with USDA and ODA inspectors,

we know puppy mills are still slipping

403

:

through the cracks, but at least we

have a little bit more insight into

404

:

the problem we need to solve because

of these state inspections, right?

405

:

And that's always the first

step to solving any problem.

406

:

You have to know what you're dealing with.

407

:

Um, so at least we've,

we're kind of getting there.

408

:

Now, how the question is,

how do we actually solve this

409

:

problem and end puppy mills?

410

:

DrG: So tell our listeners

about this letter to Dewine.

411

:

Like, what was the purpose behind it?

412

:

And what do, what do you

hope to gain from it?

413

:

Mark Finneran: Yeah, so the

Ohio Department of Agriculture

414

:

is a state agency that does a

bunch of different stuff, right?

415

:

But one of the programs they have is this,

um, commercial dog breeding oversight.

416

:

And we've been working with them

ever since the law was put into place

417

:

for these inspections and for these

standards of care to fully enforce

418

:

the laws that we have on the books.

419

:

And that's always the challenge

with any advocacy, right?

420

:

Passing a law is a huge win, but it's only

going to have to battle because if a law

421

:

isn't being properly and fully enforced,

it doesn't really do anything for anyone.

422

:

So for us, we've been working with

ODA for years to try to make sure that

423

:

when bad breeders, um, are popping up

when serious violations happen, that

424

:

there are consequences to follow that.

425

:

And the law grants them

a number of powers.

426

:

Um, as well as obligations to

stop licensing breeders that have

427

:

serious violations that are actually

threatening the health and welfare

428

:

of the dogs under their care.

429

:

And our big issue is just the fact

that so far nobody's lost their license

430

:

because of an animal welfare violation

at a state licensed dog breeder.

431

:

Despite the fact that dogs have

died in breeding facilities

432

:

because of things like DIY dentals.

433

:

Dogs have suffered in these facilities.

434

:

And so the line of what is too far

for a dog breeder has never really

435

:

been drawn by the state of Ohio.

436

:

And the end result is that, you know,

word gets around within the breeding

437

:

community about this stuff, right?

438

:

And so Ohio has sent the message.

439

:

We are open for business to puppy

mills, whether it's intentional

440

:

or not, that's the message we're

sending to the breeding community.

441

:

So for us, having worked with ODA for

years and not gotten the results we

442

:

wanted to see, ultimately, they answer

up to Governor DeWine, just like any

443

:

other state cabinet agency, right?

444

:

He appoints their director, and

he has broad authority to kind

445

:

of direct what they're doing.

446

:

Governor DeWine, um, you know,

doesn't have a track record on this

447

:

issue specifically either way, right?

448

:

He hasn't talked a lot about it.

449

:

I know he has a rescue dog at home.

450

:

Um, so we're very hopeful that if he takes

an interest in this, if he takes action

451

:

and puts pressure on ODA to fully enforce

their laws, that could completely change

452

:

the game, um, for how we're enforcing

these laws here in Ohio, and at least

453

:

get rid of what we call the low hanging

fruit in the puppy mill industry, right?

454

:

The egregious violators that appear

on lists like the horrible hundred.

455

:

year after year after year,

those people do not deserve to

456

:

be licensed as commercial dog

breeders in the state of Ohio.

457

:

And that's true from an animal welfare

perspective, but also a perspective

458

:

of just our reputation as a state

is on the line with this stuff.

459

:

We are well known as one of the worst

puppy mill states in the country, and

460

:

we need to take steps to sort of rectify

that and fix our reputation nationwide.

461

:

DrG: Yeah, I mean, we're,

we're number two, right?

462

:

Reg number two as far as the

worst state for puppy mills.

463

:

Mark Finneran: Exactly.

464

:

So on this year's Horrible 100 report,

which is a list of a hundred known

465

:

bad breeders and dog brokers in

the country that the Humane Society

466

:

of the United States puts together

every year, we are number two with

467

:

20 appearances out of a hundred.

468

:

So one out of every five puppy mills

on the Horrible 100 is unfortunately

469

:

located right here in Ohio.

470

:

DrG: So this also was not just HSUS

supporting this letter, like you had a

471

:

huge number of, of advocacy groups, right?

472

:

And how important is that to have all

of this extra support to this letter?

473

:

Mark Finneran: I'm so excited and proud

of the animal welfare community coming

474

:

together behind this common message.

475

:

It's, it is so necessary for us to

speak with one voice on this issue.

476

:

And yes, it was, um, 20 different

organizations, humane societies,

477

:

rescues, animal welfare organizations

like HSUS, uh, and, and veterinarians

478

:

coming together to, to deliver

this message to the governor.

479

:

And look, you know how hard it

can be to get a coalition of 20

480

:

different groups to agree on anything.

481

:

Um, and this is a pretty big step for

the animal welfare community to make

482

:

this direct appeal to the governor.

483

:

Um, so I'm just so thankful that,

um, everyone has been willing

484

:

to speak up on this and really

come together to get this done.

485

:

DrG: And on the other side is the

community can help support this.

486

:

So what can the community members do?

487

:

Mark Finneran: That's

absolutely essential.

488

:

We need folks, if you're in Ohio,

to contact the governor and ask

489

:

him to take action on puppy mills.

490

:

Right?

491

:

We're not on an even playing field here.

492

:

As I mentioned, these dog breeders

can sell dogs for thousands of dollars

493

:

and they are very well established

as an influential lobby, um, big

494

:

business that has a lot of say and a

lot of power around the statehouse.

495

:

And on the other side, you know, we have

groups like rescues that are completely

496

:

volunteer led humane societies that

are completely powered by volunteers.

497

:

And so we don't have the same resources.

498

:

All we have is kind of like the truth

and, you know, we're on the right side

499

:

of this issue, but that cannot be that

oftentimes that's not enough, right?

500

:

So we need the public to speak out and

to get involved and to let the governor

501

:

know that this isn't something we're just

gonna, um, sit by while Ohio continues

502

:

to have puppy mills in our state.

503

:

DrG: Where can listeners

go to help support this?

504

:

Is there a place that they can go to be

part of the petition to the governor?

505

:

Mark Finneran: There is, so on our

Facebook page Humane Society of the United

506

:

States, Ohio, you see, you'll see a link

to our action alert where you can send

507

:

an email to the governor, but you can

also just go online and Google contact

508

:

governor to wine and you'll see a form

where you can quickly send them an email.

509

:

You can call his office.

510

:

And I even encourage people to

write a handwritten letter, right?

511

:

The old fashioned way.

512

:

Yeah.

513

:

That can, that can make a

difference a lot of the times.

514

:

When I used to work in the state

legislature, letters would be few and far

515

:

between, but that's something that people

would read and really pay attention to.

516

:

So, if you have a few minutes to, to,

to jot down a letter and send it to the

517

:

governor, that can be really impactful.

518

:

DrG: And, and a respectful and

professional letter, right?

519

:

We don't want to be Passing the

governor out and saying you're not

520

:

doing your effing job or whatever.

521

:

Like that's not what

we're looking for, right?

522

:

Mark Finneran: That is exactly right.

523

:

And I appreciate you

mentioning that, right?

524

:

People respond well.

525

:

Um, when, when you give them

an opportunity to do what

526

:

you're asking basically, right?

527

:

And the governor truly does have a chance

here to be a hero for these dogs to kind

528

:

of step up in a way that many, you know,

elected officials have had the chance

529

:

to do and kind of passed on in the past.

530

:

So You know, this is something

we see that is a legacy

531

:

defining issue for the governor.

532

:

And if he takes this chance to be a

savior for dogs and puppy mills, that's

533

:

something that he should get credit for.

534

:

DrG: Yeah, I mean, everybody likes dogs

and even people that don't like animals.

535

:

They don't want to see the animals hurt.

536

:

So you don't have to be a dog

lover to not want a dog to be

537

:

in these conditions, right?

538

:

So it's going to be, it's

going to be important for,

539

:

for consumers who are voters.

540

:

Mark Finneran: And one of the things

I really appreciate about this issue

541

:

is that it's not ideological, right?

542

:

Just like you said, everyone,

there's a shared sense of respect.

543

:

Um, and and love for

other living creatures.

544

:

And that's something that brings us

together across party lines across

545

:

some of the traditional divides

we see on other policy issues

546

:

is we can all agree that people

shouldn't be hurting puppies, right?

547

:

Hopefully we can all agree on that.

548

:

And so again, I really see this as an

opportunity for the governor to bring the

549

:

state together around a good cause and and

do something that we all know is right.

550

:

DrG: What would you recommend to

consumers for protecting themselves

551

:

from making a puppy mill purchase?

552

:

Mark Finneran: Well, the best way to

avoid supporting a puppy mill is not to

553

:

purchase a dog from a breeder, right?

554

:

Go to your humane society, go to

a rescue and find an animal that,

555

:

um, you know, just needs a home.

556

:

Uh, and I think the most common reason

I hear that people, you know, want to go

557

:

to a breeder is because they're looking

for a specific type of dog, right?

558

:

What I always say is, you know,

you're making a 10 to 15 year.

559

:

investment in this animal, you

don't need to go out and get

560

:

this puppy tomorrow, right?

561

:

So give it some time and work

with those organizations.

562

:

If you go to your humane society and

say, this is the kind of dog I'm looking

563

:

for, they might not have it there that

day, but they can help you connect you

564

:

with that animal, you know, a week,

a month down the line, and you'll be

565

:

able to make a choice as a consumer

that you really feel good about.

566

:

If you are going to a dog breeder,

The biggest thing that you can look

567

:

for is a breeder that wants, wants you

to come see the animal, see the puppy

568

:

and see where it was raised, right?

569

:

Invites you in to that, that environment.

570

:

And then you can see firsthand,

you know, what kind of

571

:

environment they were raised in.

572

:

And generally you want a breeder that's

interested in you as a potential match

573

:

for their puppy, just as interested

in that as you are in the dog, right?

574

:

Because the worst, one of the biggest

red flags is if they want to meet

575

:

you in like a Best Buy parking lot,

they're just trying to make a sale.

576

:

They just look at this dog

as a way to make a buck.

577

:

A truly responsible breeder wants to

make sure these puppies that they care

578

:

about and love are going to loving homes.

579

:

DrG: Yeah, I know that things that we

personally recommend is going to be

580

:

making sure that they have a veterinarian

overseeing the, the care of the

581

:

puppies and the parents that they're

not just giving their own vaccines

582

:

and doing their own, their own things.

583

:

And then some of these more uh,

responsible breeders are going to have

584

:

in their contract that if there, if there

is a problem with the puppy, it doesn't

585

:

work out anymore to bring the puppy back.

586

:

Right.

587

:

So that it doesn't end up in a shelter.

588

:

It doesn't end up in a bad situation.

589

:

Mark Finneran: Exactly.

590

:

Yeah.

591

:

And it, It always comes back to, you

know, look for a breeder that cares

592

:

about the puppies that they're raising.

593

:

And there's so many different ways to

kind of be able to pick up on that, but

594

:

ultimately that's what you're looking for.

595

:

DrG: I, I like to say adopt, don't

shop, but if you must shop, do

596

:

it responsibly because we want to

take care of the animals, right?

597

:

Mark Finneran: And that's what, you

know, when you talk about like the,

598

:

the puppies being sold in pet stores,

that's the problem with that business

599

:

model at kind of like a base level.

600

:

It's impossible for a consumer to

know where a dog came from when

601

:

they're buying it in a pet store.

602

:

Because again, you know, you can be

told that they were from a licensed

603

:

breeder or whatever, but you can't

see that firsthand as a consumer.

604

:

And so you're setting consumers up to fail

when you sell them in this environment.

605

:

Where it's just a puppy in a window with

no context about where that dog came

606

:

from, you know, any of, any of, any of its

breeding conditions or anything like that.

607

:

DrG: Yeah, and again, a licensed breeder,

the way that they're allowed to keep these

608

:

animals is not necessarily the way that

we would want to keep our pets, right?

609

:

It's like, they're allowed to

keep them in these small cages in

610

:

these, you know, bad situations and

being fed the way that they are.

611

:

So yes, they are licensed, but

that doesn't really mean anything.

612

:

Mark Finneran: Exactly.

613

:

Being a licensed breeder should be an

indicator of high quality, and that's

614

:

just not the case given the way these

laws are being enforced right now.

615

:

And that's one of the biggest things

we feel that we need to change.

616

:

DrG: Excellent.

617

:

Well, hopefully with everybody coming

together to work, and this is what I

618

:

would consider kind of like a bipartisan

type issue, but Unfortunately, it

619

:

doesn't seem to always go that way, but

everybody should get behind this and and

620

:

do what's best and to eliminate puppy

mills and do what's best for the animal.

621

:

Mark Finneran: That's our hope.

622

:

This is an issue that can

bring people together.

623

:

And yeah, I think we're going to be okay

for consumers to be able to get a dog

624

:

that works for their family without these

puppy mills churning out litter after

625

:

litter after litter, because the reality

is that's just filling up our rescues and

626

:

our humane societies with dumped dogs.

627

:

DrG: Is there anything that

we haven't covered that you

628

:

feel that we need to bring up?

629

:

Mark Finneran: I don't think so.

630

:

I just want to thank you so much for

the opportunity to be on the podcast

631

:

and kind of spread the word about this.

632

:

Um, and that's it.

633

:

DrG: Excellent.

634

:

Well, thank you so much Mark for being

here and for everything that you're

635

:

doing and for everybody who's listening.

636

:

Thanks for listening and

thank you for caring.

637

:

Mark Finneran: Thank you, Dr.

638

:

G.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.