Episode 37

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Published on:

21st Dec 2023

SpayFirst with founder Ruth Steinberger

Episode 37: SpayFirst with founder Ruth Steinberger

Shelter euthanasia is not the problem. Shelter overpopulation is not the problem. We are looking for a solution to animal welfare issues while overlooking the real problem. Pet overpopulation and lack of access to care is the cause of increased shelter intake and thus shelter euthanasia. Until we acknowledge that lack of affordable and accessible care is the cause of the problem, we will not be able to reach a solution, and more animals and people who care for them will continue to suffer.

To speak about this pet overpopulation crisis, we invited Ruth Steinberger, founder of SpayFirst. Ruth has been involved in providing affordable and accessible care since the ‘90s and shares what her organization is doing to provide solutions, how the current intake processes are doing more harm than good, and what needs to happen to truly help decrease shelter euthanasia. We are all responsible for this problem, and we all need to be part of the solution.

You can help us reach a wider audience by following, rating, and sharing our episodes. Together we can make a difference for animals and the community.

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Transcript
DrG:

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today, I have a special guest from

Spay First, founder Ruth Steinberger.

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Welcome, Ruth, and

welcome to the Junction.

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Ruth Steinberger: Hi,

well, thank you very much.

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It's wonderful to be here.

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DrG: So for everybody that's

listening, we're going to be

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talking about pet overpopulation,

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the importance of spay neuter, and a

little bit about the no kill movement.

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So first, how about we start with

introducing you to our listeners

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and letting them know where you

started from and what brought

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you to where you are today.

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Ruth Steinberger: Thank you.

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Gosh.

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My passion has been spay neuter for

many, many years, and I was fortunate

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to work under the Mentoring of Carol

Hogue in Virginia, and this was in

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the 1990s, even back to the 1980s.

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And we're in the Appalachian region,

and she made it clear very quickly that

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we could never adopt our way out of

the problem, but we can keep animals

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in their homes, especially the female

animals in rural areas that become so at

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risk by helping families get pets fixed.

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And it just didn't take a whole lot

for light to go on, and I moved to

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Oklahoma to, uh, work on the development

of spay neuter programs in areas,

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which was most of the state, that

had no programs, no programs at all.

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We're a very low income state

overall, and, um, so the programs

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were very much needed here.

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I also at the time wrote, um, primarily

about legislative redistricting, totally

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different story, for three different

Native American newspapers, and that

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took me to reservations, it took me to

communities that were very much in need.

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I moved from Virginia to Oklahoma to work

on spay neuter programs, and from there,

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the pathways just opened up in, in front

of me, and, working, especially, on tribal

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lands, which was a wonderful experience,

and, a lot of need, um, a lot of

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resources that were needed were not there.

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Tribes were, , absolutely reaching

out in the early:

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programs, , and so I worked, uh, with Dr.

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Jeff, who's been a guest on

your program, to open programs

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that had a meaningful impact.

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And this is not just visiting once

in a while, but this would, these

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were programs that were based on an

assessment of the numbers, working closely

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with tribal health administrations,

visiting often enough to get multiple

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services throughout the year.

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And at the same time, you realize

that the resources to do this in all

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the places it was needed, , would be

very, very hard to ever come up with.

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It became clear that there was a need

for an organizations, uh, that focus

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solely on animals that live among

people in chronic poverty, remote

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poverty, rural poverty, , poverty

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that's also impacted by racism and

other social factors that make it very

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difficult for people to access services.

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In 2010, it became clear that

a very nuanced organization was

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needed and Spay First was opened.

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And our goal was chronic poverty,

rural areas, minority communities, and

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tribal lands, and it did not take long

before we found ourselves, looking

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at what would it take to move forward

with the research and development.

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Of a low cost product for, um, preventing

litters that was, would be non surgical.

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So we spent a lot of time on calcium

chloride in ethyl alcohol for male

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dogs, and we have partnered with federal

agencies to continue that work with a

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target species being female, , dogs.

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And, Looking at GonaCon, which has

been shown to work in the past, Dr.

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Levy, um, published on

the success for cats.

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So that is something that we

are, that's underway for us.

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So what we have seen is that when you

reduce the number of animals through

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spay neuter, you empower people to care.

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What we saw at one tribe, which

was kicked off in:

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Jeff, which was the Rosebud Sioux

tribe, um, they requested services

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that were larger than what they had.

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And, um, they had a team

that was visiting, but they

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knew they needed a lot more.

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And what we found was that

after just a couple of years of

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working closely with the health

administration and making sure there

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was transport to get the animals in to

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base the level of Um, service on

the numbers of households, not just

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going and saying, we're going to go

and just kind of set up, but going,

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okay, we need an opening clinic

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that has the capacity for a 1000 animals.

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We need to then break this

down to 3 times a year.

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And have the capacity for

originally 400 animals per clinic.

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And what we saw within a couple of years

were animals started coming in with names.

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Animals started coming in on leashes,

and most importantly, they looked good.

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We went from a first clinic with

75% of dogs with mange over half

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being serious cases to fewer

than 10%, and then fewer than 5%.

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So we called grocery stores, the

few stores that sold large bags

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of dog food on the reservation.

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And what we learned was that as the number

of dogs on the reservation declined,

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the sales of dog food went up.

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So the message is, when we empower

people to care and to be their

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compassionate self, they do.

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They very often become that self.

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I, I feel people have

to learn to be hardened.

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That people naturally do care about

those animals that live around them.

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They don't like seeing them suffer.

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Um, they have to become hardened

to it because they're, um, they

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have no power to change it.

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But when they do have the

power to change it, people do.

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And they do care, and you see it in

facts like that, like a store going,

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Oh yeah, we're selling quite a bit more

dog food, but there's far less dogs.

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So, it's been very, um, very affirming

to see what you can do with spay neuter.

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You know, there would be no way to

have that same impact by saying,

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oh, let your animals have litters.

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We'll just come and get

the litters for adoption.

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There's not the means to take them.

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Um, but when you let people take control

of their own situation, empower them

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to take, take care of the animals.

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They, they, they do.

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That is how we saw the segue to

non surgical as, as a lovely cat

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just made off with my jacket.

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We saw it as a way to, um, reach

the poorest, reach those with the

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fewest resources, make it possible

for, , paraprofessionals to help

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in this, in this battle against

overpopulation and unwanted litters.

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We have focused solely on products that

can hit the ground for very low cost.

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Um, we don't view the non surgicals

that are going to be, cost, uh,

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cost comparative with surgicals.

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Our goal with this is to have a vaccine.

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Um, we know for a lot of people

globally who feed dogs, like many

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people in this country feed cats, um,

they will be able to return annually.

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Um, a simple intramuscular injection is

something that people who are now trained

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to give rabies vaccines, because that is

such a priority in so many places, that

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they can be trained to give a second or

they can simply give a second vaccine.

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And we can prevent, uh,

thousands of litters.

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And to be clear, we feel that for

a very long time, spay neuter is

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going to be the gold standard.

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It just is.

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But, uh, there is so much of the

world that has nothing to rely on.

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Even large swaths of this

country, you know, especially

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when it comes to community cats.

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DrG: Similar to your story, when I

started working in low cost spay neuter

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clinics, it was primarily because there

were so many areas that had underserved

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communities, had either increased

poverty, there were veterinary deserts, no

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veterinarians for 25, 50 and over miles.

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And I thought it was going to be.

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It was going to take a while to

develop this business model and it

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did not take any time at all, right?

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Because if anything we've

never been able to keep up with

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the demand from the get go.

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It's been , our list of people that want

us to go to to their locations It's much

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bigger than what we can do because it's

just never ending and it is really nice

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to see how you were saying as far as

the better care that the animals are

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receiving in those communities throughout

the 17 years that we have been doing this,

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at the very beginning, we've

always required rabies vaccine.

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And at the very beginning, we had people

arguing with us that they did not want

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to spend the 7 to give a rabies vaccine.

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We don't want to spend the

10 for a rabies vaccine.

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We just want the spay or the neuter.

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And now, you know, fast

forward to 17 years later.

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We have people coming in requesting

core vaccinations, requesting that their

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dogs get more than just the rabies,

requesting wellness care, prevention,

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you know, they're, they're more

educated about the needs of the animals.

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They're more involved in their care,

and we're seeing more of these animals

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that are being brought into their

homes, even if they're indoor outdoor.

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At the beginning, I feel like everything

was outdoor, and now we have a pretty

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good balance between indoor and indoor

outdoor and then of course the community

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animals that that we get but yeah

bringing bringing the service to the

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community and bringing that education

is creating a sense of ownership to

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the people in the community and not

having to worry about all these unwanted

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litters now now you have a a household

that has The one dog, not the one dog

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having six puppies every six months.

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They just have the one dog to,

to care about and to worry about.

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Ruth Steinberger: Right.

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And it's a very different

relationship to that animal.

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And frankly, that animal's

relationship to the resources in

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the house becomes very different.

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You know, feeding one dog or two

dogs versus feeding six or eight,

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the resources look very different.

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Um, and.

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So your, your desire to make it

happen, I think for people who

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can't possibly feed the eight, um,

so, oh, that, that's interesting.

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So you've seen a lot of

changes through these years.

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Good.

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Yeah, we

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DrG: have very good, very good changes.

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No, yeah, very good changes.

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And even the rescues demonstrating that

they have had lower intakes in some

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of these areas as far as the number of

strays, the number of large litters,

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because the, again, the community is

able to take responsibility for it.

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We can't really fault people

for not doing the right thing if

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they don't have the resources.

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If they don't have access to a

veterinarian, we can't tell them,

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well, you're, you're a horrible

owner because you're not spaying and

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neutering, you're not vaccinating.

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If they don't have it, they don't have it.

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I've never been to a reservation,

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so I would be very interested to go visit

one someday and see what the difference

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in the communities are, but I imagine

that it's something very similar that

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they're just having these problems with

their animal populations because they

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just don't have the resources within

the reservation to take care of them.

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Ruth Steinberger: Um, very

few tribes have the access.

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I mean, geography is, is an issue.

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Um, you know, there are a lot of social

issues , and I will tell you, the tribes

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that I've, I've really been fortunate

to work with a lot of tribes and they've

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been wonderful hosts and places to work.

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The people putting these programs

together, they totally got it.

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I mean, they, they totally, they know

this is the way to make the community

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safer to, you know, it's, it's everything

, and you just really wish that there

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was a way to provide a lot more.

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DrG: it's really difficult to find

veterinarians that are trained in high

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volume sterilization and that want

to put forth the time and the effort

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that it takes and that understand the

needs of these communities, right?

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Because it's not the same.

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We can't go into these poor stricken

communities and say this is the

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gold standard of care, you know, we

want to do an x ray, We want to go

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do a ct and we want to do an mri.

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Those are those are not it It's what what

can we do with what we have to offer and

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it's not settling, it's understanding

what the resources are, what's available?

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And what reality is?

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I mean, the reality of, of these

locations are a lot different than the

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realities that I see, for instance,

here in central Ohio, it's going

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to be, it's going to be different.

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So finding veterinarians that are

able to manage the needs of these

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communities is not an easy task,

because it has to be the right fit.

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It cannot be to hire somebody just

to hire someone like it's just

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gonna waste my time, waste their

time and not help our patients.

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It's not really worth it.

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Ruth Steinberger: How do you see this?

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Occurring.

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How, how many staff have

you had in the past?

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DrG: So I, at one point, so I have

the mobile units and then , for

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about 11 years, I also had a, a

stationary clinic that was a 24 hour.

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Oh yeah, you said that.

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Walk in.

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Yeah, general practice

and emergency practice.

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So I was managing both.

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At one point we had 10 doctors.

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This is, you know, like 15 years ago.

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And we had four doctors that that

were on the trucks, and then the rest

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of the doctors were in the hospital.

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It worked out great.

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And as we had shifts because of people

leaving for different reasons, and we

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would get new veterinarians, they were

able to be trained into what we needed.

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And then little by little, we started

seeing the, the ability to get individuals

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that can be trained to do this diminish.

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So a lot

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Ruth Steinberger: of that was so a lot of

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DrG: the, a lot of the mentality on

just general practice and referral.

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Right.

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So I'm just gonna do So I hate to say

the bare minimum because they're not

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doing the bare minimum, but they're

not getting into very complex things.

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And then anything outside

of that just gets referred.

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High volume sterilization is hard work.

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And when we're, when we're out there

working, we're out there working, we,

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you know, one surgery to the next, to

the next, to the next, to the next.

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Not everybody can deal with that.

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They're not trained to do so.

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And some are not willing to do so.

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Ruth Steinberger: And there's

a real physicality to it too.

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DrG: No, absolutely.

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I mean, I'm, I'm very.

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thankful that my body has

been able to hold on for

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this long.

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Um,

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but there are veterinarians that do this

for a couple of years and their wrists

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are broken down, their elbows are broken

down, their shoulders are broken down.

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And it's, knowing yourself and

what you can do and adjusting to

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maintain the longevity of your body.

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You know, especially when we're young,

we think that we're indestructible

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and we can do anything and we can pick

anything up and we can do whatever.

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And then, little by little,

our body starts to catch up.

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Right, right.

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So, but, I mean, again, I'm

just really thankful that I've

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been able to do it for so long.

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Because , yeah, I get tired and I get sore

but not to the point of having to stop.

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Ruth Steinberger: Right, right, good.

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Wow.

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DrG: One of the issues with

spay and neuter, clearly, is

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controlling pet overpopulation.

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And our shelters are just

overcrowded with animals.

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And we're seeing this problem

from a lot of different sites,

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but the reaction that people get

into is more shelters, more space.

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And they're not really solving

the problem, they're just

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trying to manage the problem.

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So, what is your perspective on that?

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Ruth Steinberger: Well,

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more shelters, more space

is a never ending equation.

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You know, more shelters, more

space, we'll move to more shelters

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and even more space needed.

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Um, what we see in this part of

the country is the shelters simply,

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basically saying there's no room

at the inn, and giving absurd, um,

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timelines for intake, owner surrenders.

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Making phone systems very difficult,

press one for this, press two for this,

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give intake appointments in the mornings

when 11 in the morning when working

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people have a very hard time using those

appointments, making people feel guilty.

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And so making public shelters

inaccessible, rather than increasing the

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size of the shelter or concomitantly,

um, what I see as an overall picture

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is, and I, and I would like to

see more people who are expressing

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concern about what is happening

to the animals in the new kennel.

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In this whole press to force numbers to

change, rather than organically changing

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the situation, is looking at what, what

drug, you know, purchasing records, city

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records or open records.

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What, what were the amount of drugs used?

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How many surgeries were done?

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What did drug logs look like?

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Because if we were taking in 10, 000

animals a year and some number were being

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euthanized, even if high, those that

went back out the door were being fixed.

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And let's say it was only 5, 000.

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It was only half, But we're turning

them away now and we're only Doing

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an intake of a few thousand, what is

happening to those animals in between

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because now they are not getting fixed.

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And so, where I see this movement

going is a pathologically short

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sighted way of dealing with a problem.

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It's like saying, well, if we close

the domestic violence shelter on

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Saturday nights, we're going to

be addressing domestic violence.

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If we turn the animals away at the

door, then, you know, we're addressing

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what's been the

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role of a shelter, which is that

they're receptacle for unwanted animals.

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So we close that door, but does

it create fewer unwanted animals?

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Absolutely not.

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It creates uncounted animals.

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It creates animals that have

now received no services.

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No vaccines, no spay, no meal.

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DrG: I think that, the whole idea with

increasing intake or increasing capacity

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above what they their resources.

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It's kind of, you know, the

whole idea just thinking about

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it from a simple comparison.

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If we have an outbreak of a

disease for people, we're not

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going to build more hospitals.

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We're going to look for

a cure for the disease.

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So we have You know, we have over

population is kind of a disease.

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It's something that is affecting.

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In my experience, some of the places that

I traveled to that are overcapacity,

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the mental health problem of the staff

is literally coming because of being

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overcapacity, being overworked, having

to, you know, manage these animals,

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seeing them every day, seeing them

deteriorate, so the animal's mental

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health is deteriorating, and the

person's mental health is deteriorating.

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So, you know, clearly, we are

concerned about the animals, but

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then there are people that are

like, well, we don't care about the

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animals, we care about the people.

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Hey, guess what?

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Both problems get solved

exactly the same way.

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We have to figure out how to control

this, this intake and this extended

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stay of animals that are potentially

unadoptable that are keeping adoptable

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animals and community animals from being

able to utilize the shelter the way that

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is supposed to be done to begin with.

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Ruth Steinberger: Well, and I

think we've got, um, if you look

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at the number of dogs in the US.

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the closest, uh, per capita is

Germany, and they have about half

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the per capita number of dogs.

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We have too many.

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We simply are stuffing dogs

everywhere they can go.

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We're encouraging people to get a third

dog, we're not solving the issue.

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And we cannot have shelters be

for what shelters should be for,

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while we are continuing to produce

numbers that are over the top.

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And there are so many signs

that we're really in trouble.

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The sales of premium, , and super

premium dog food that's human

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grade food are skyrocketing.

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It's, it's the largest growth in

sales . However, also having skyrocketing

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need for pet food banks for people

who cannot afford to feed their pets.

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So what it says is, again, this is, um,

you know, extremes, but it's saying

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that there's a lot of animals in

the middle area between those two.

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but while the super premium is growing,

those who are very dire and probably

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some of those animals need sheltering

because there's not enough food,

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um, and they're not getting enough.

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So we need to, I think, just look at

how accessible, how people end up.

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I know our program in Durant, Oklahoma,

it's, um, just north of the Texas line.

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We serve a lot of very

low income communities.

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About 60 percent of the animals

we ask where you got your pet.

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So was it a stray, owner giveaway,

um, Walmart parking lot is one source.

356

:

And a little bit over 60%, around 60

percent took their animal in as a stray.

357

:

Um, they didn't make a choice

to go get an animal that they

358

:

couldn't afford to take care of.

359

:

It was an act of compassion.

360

:

It was not an act of irresponsibility.

361

:

But what it says is they, they

didn't necessarily choose to go get

362

:

an animal or they didn't choose to.

363

:

we've got to look at this overall picture

and cut the numbers back dramatically.

364

:

There are not enough resources.

365

:

DrG: Yeah.

366

:

I'm glad you brought that up

because, you know, there's so many

367

:

people that say if you can't afford

an animal, you shouldn't have it.

368

:

But so many people have these animals

because where are they gonna go?

369

:

Like you said, are they just

gonna leave it out on the street?

370

:

They can't take it to the shelter,

'cause the shelter's closed,

371

:

or it's not, it's not intaking.

372

:

Uh, so that's the main reason why we do

the mobile sterilization and wellness care

373

:

is because these animals still need care.

374

:

These people need resources.

375

:

They don't have them.

376

:

And it's very difficult for them to, you

know, for whatever reason to drive or

377

:

go somewhere that there are resources.

378

:

So we just bring the resources to them to

try to help them as much as we, as we can.

379

:

Because even there are some of these

places that do have some veterinarians,

380

:

but the veterinarians don't have the

capacity to keep up with the population.

381

:

And the cost of care has

gone significantly up.

382

:

So there may be veterinarians in the

area, but that doesn't mean that the

383

:

people can afford to have the local

veterinarian do the spay or neuter.

384

:

Ruth Steinberger: All right, right.

385

:

I don't know what minimum wage looks

like where you are, here it's still 7.

386

:

25.

387

:

Yeah, here it's gone up.

388

:

There's absolutely, much over $50,

389

:

a lot of homes just can't do it.

390

:

They cannot do it.

391

:

If they're making minimum wage, even

if there's two minimum wage earners

392

:

in the house, um, it's not tenable.

393

:

DrG: Yeah, minimum wage

here in Ohio is $10.10.

394

:

Really?

395

:

Now, some of the problems that we're

seeing in the rural communities, though,

396

:

is that it's not even a matter of is

that sufficient or not, is that there

397

:

are no jobs available in their areas.

398

:

And then either they don't have jobs or

they have to drive a significant distance

399

:

to get to go to work, so then we get

into, okay, so you can drive 50 miles

400

:

to get a decent job or to get a job,

but now you're going to have all of the

401

:

gas and all the, you know, all the other

expenses that go along with traveling.

402

:

So it does make it difficult on people

to again, just take care of themselves.

403

:

And then on top of that, take

care of the, of their family,

404

:

including their four legged family.

405

:

All right.

406

:

Right.

407

:

And one of the issues that I have,

especially with the schools is, we

408

:

talk about the professional capacity,

so that's another push for increasing

409

:

the number of graduates, but I don't

think that just increasing the number of

410

:

graduates is going to solve the problem

because not everybody that graduates

411

:

from vet school is going to want to go

into community service, or it's going to

412

:

want to go work in rural areas, right?

413

:

Because, you know, with so many,

so many corporate veterinary

414

:

clinics , it's like everybody's

wanting to make as much as they can.

415

:

And that leaves these rural

communities with no options.

416

:

Ruth Steinberger: Nothing at all.

417

:

And, and that again, especially for cats.

418

:

It's why we feel there has to be some non

surgical options, and there's certainly,

419

:

there's a couple of tools in the box, but

we need everything, , because for cats,

420

:

once they get ahead of a person, it's

very difficult, and it's very easy for

421

:

people to wind up with 20, 30, 40 cats.

422

:

You know, in small communities,

especially throughout the Midwest.

423

:

DrG: Going back to the, to the concept

of no kill, I always tell people, I

424

:

approve of the concept of no kill.

425

:

I do not like the no kill movement

because they're completely

426

:

different things, right?

427

:

To me, the concept of no kill is,

is basically trying to maintain

428

:

adoptable animals, healthy animals, and

429

:

doing the best that we can to

not euthanize for space and doing

430

:

things in a responsible manner.

431

:

But the no kill movement is

just not very transparent.

432

:

And it leads people to think that

nothing is getting euthanized.

433

:

And then they, they put this inflammatory

language as far as saying it kill

434

:

so that if you're not a no kill

shelter, then you're a kill shelter.

435

:

And there are so many amazing rescue

organizations that may or may not

436

:

have the numbers that the no kill

movement requires, but they're

437

:

getting penalized because they

don't use the no kill wording.

438

:

Yeah, and, and they don't use it

because they don't believe in it.

439

:

And they want to be transparent and so

you see on social media, people that will

440

:

say, oh, well, I won't support X, Y, C

shelter because they're not no kill, but

441

:

then they support other shelters that say

they are no kill that may have exactly

442

:

the same amount of euthanasias,, just

because the community doesn't understand.

443

:

Ruth Steinberger: Or

them turning them away.

444

:

I mean, no, no kill can

simply be slow kill.

445

:

DrG: Yeah, it's like, as, as you said,

it would be like a domestic violence

446

:

shelter shutting down and saying well,

there's no domestic violence victims

447

:

this week because we didn't take any

in, it's, you know, there are no, no

448

:

animals being euthanized because we

didn't take any animals that needed

449

:

euthanasia, but these animals are dying.

450

:

Ruth Steinberger: Exactly,

yes, they are dying.

451

:

Right, they're not being counted.

452

:

And, you know, there's, , coaching

for shelters in what language to use.

453

:

And so there's the no kill language

and there's, um, claiming that

454

:

you cannot keep your staff

because they're euthanizing.

455

:

And, you know, and so if you are in touch

with several shelters in a state, and

456

:

you can sort of hear the best friends

weekly, um, they have a Zoom meeting.

457

:

And you can hear different

people say the exact same thing.

458

:

Different parts of the state.

459

:

They don't know each other.

460

:

You know, um, it's, it's

coaching in propaganda.

461

:

And the animals are losing out.

462

:

DrG: One of the questions that I

have is, we're talking about no

463

:

kill 2025 and saying that we are

reaching no kill:

464

:

only a little bit over a year away.

465

:

But yet euthanasia rates are increasing.

466

:

So how can we be more no kill while the

statistics show that euthanasia rates

467

:

are actually higher than they have been?

468

:

Ruth Steinberger: Mm hmm.

469

:

That's interesting, right?

470

:

Yeah.

471

:

Yeah.

472

:

DrG: So that that to me, I I'm I'm hoping

for somebody to be able to explain that

473

:

to me because it just doesn't make sense.

474

:

I want to also talk about just kind

of the effect of this mentality on

475

:

shelters and services to the public

because it's decreasing the services

476

:

that are available to the community

in general and to the animals that

477

:

are going back to the community.

478

:

Ruth Steinberger: Well, and you know,

shelter relinquishments historically

479

:

came from the lower income parts of

communities, the lower income zip codes.

480

:

So that is who's lost the resource.

481

:

Those were the ones who had the need

for animal sheltering to be available

482

:

because they were feeding this dog.

483

:

Possibly there was an eviction.

484

:

Possibly there was any number of problems.

485

:

Um, a woman here in the town that

I'm fairly close to, , needed

486

:

help getting her cats fixed.

487

:

And so we helped her and at the

time she said she had just become

488

:

homeless in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

489

:

And the shelter, because it

involved an eviction, the shelter

490

:

said that's not an emergency.

491

:

So, um, yeah.

492

:

So she said to me, you know, this was

someone who had some difficulties.

493

:

and challenges.

494

:

And she said to me, um, could you

drive to Tulsa and look for my dog?

495

:

I had to put her on the street

because I had had a ride to

496

:

this town, you know, near me and

somebody who was putting her up.

497

:

So instead of being able to take

the dog, she was turned away.

498

:

From the Tulsa shelter and so because

eviction, you know, doesn't count

499

:

as an emergency or didn't, um, so

she left her dog on the street and

500

:

she said very innocently, can you

go to Tulsa and look for my dog?

501

:

Well, nobody can do

that, so, was that dog safe?

502

:

No.

503

:

Was she fed that night?

504

:

Probably not.

505

:

Are those folks at the shelter

who turn her away, did they do

506

:

something kind for an animal?

507

:

No, they did not.

508

:

And I think that's what we have to look

at is, is, is euthanasia the worst thing

509

:

that can happen in terms of starvation,

in terms of being on the streets, in terms

510

:

of having unwanted litters on the streets?

511

:

You know, because now we have a

really allowed an increase in numbers.

512

:

And we are truly out of space, you know,

and, and it's tragic to think of that

513

:

if we now really do reopen shelters,

there's going to be a lot more euthanasia

514

:

than there were when this movement

movement started to close the doors.

515

:

Because there's just simply

so many more animals.

516

:

DrG: The euthanasia is not the problem.

517

:

And everybody's getting stuck

on the euthanasia or on the

518

:

kill part as being the problem.

519

:

That's not the problem.

520

:

That's a solution that some

places have had to go to.

521

:

Because, again, the disease, which is the

overpopulation, is not being controlled.

522

:

Right.

523

:

So if we can, it's, it's just that simple.

524

:

If we control the overpopulation

issue and we decrease the intake,

525

:

then we decrease the euthanasia.

526

:

It's like a, it's a very simple equation

that yes, we're having such a hard

527

:

time understanding and the shelters,

the, and I understand that there's

528

:

such a huge lack of resources, but

the shelters that are adopting animals

529

:

out intact, just to move them are just

creating their own problems, right?

530

:

We spent so many years trying to get

shelters to spay neuter before adoption.

531

:

And then we got to a point

where that was happening.

532

:

And now we're going back to the dark

ages and sending these animals out.

533

:

And what we have seen.

534

:

Is some of the groups that we work with

that release animals under contract

535

:

and they say, you know, we're going to

schedule you out for for spay and neuter,

536

:

you have to come back.

537

:

And we have seen some of these animals

that come back for getting spayed

538

:

and these dogs are pregnant and.

539

:

The shelter literally would have just been

adding to their problem, and, you know,

540

:

they didn't, they didn't mean no harm, the

people that took the dog and that adopted

541

:

the dog, they didn't necessarily mean

for it to get pregnant, but that's why

542

:

we spay and neuter, because that's where

the term accidental litter comes from.

543

:

We are just going so far backwards in not

looking for ways to solve the problem.

544

:

We're looking for ways to put a band

aid in the problem and ignore it and say

545

:

we're just gonna not be transparent, we're

gonna pretend that it's not happening

546

:

and we're not really going to address

the underlying overpopulation problem.

547

:

Ruth Steinberger: Right, right, right,

that's exactly, that's, that's exactly.

548

:

It

549

:

is very important for people to realize

that let's let's go back to the statistic

550

:

that says 75 percent of shelter animals

are mixed breed 25 percent and I

551

:

think that's very high are purebreds.

552

:

I don't think it's even that much

of a, you know, I, I think it's

553

:

less than that is the purebreds.

554

:

Um, so the release of shelter

animals, that overwhelming number of

555

:

animals intact for any reason, with

no ability to chase down the animal.

556

:

I want to figure out how I'm going

to say, because I realized that a

557

:

lot of rural shelters, their only

option would be euthanize all.

558

:

But, the fact is that a shelter that

just releases intact on a promise and

559

:

a handshake may in fact be the largest

problem in their whole community.

560

:

They are the problem household.

561

:

Because there's no single household.

562

:

Most communities have, you can have

this number of dogs and this number of

563

:

cats in a municipality, you can have

up to three animals or whatever it is.

564

:

The shelter that habitually releases

intact is exceeding the number of

565

:

litters that any of those individual

households ever could have met.

566

:

They're not, you know, producing

20 litters in a year where the

567

:

shelter may be producing 20, maybe

producing 50 by the intact release.

568

:

The shelter itself may be the biggest

problem if they are releasing intact.

569

:

So it is so important because if the

shelter jumps in to be part of the

570

:

problem instead of part of the solution

and and we're all one or the other at

571

:

this point, , then, , that community

has no way to get ahead of of the

572

:

tragedy of animal overpopulation.

573

:

No matter how well adoptions are going,

the fact is that we are so overwhelmed

574

:

by the numbers in this country.

575

:

That, you know, saying our

adoptions are going really well

576

:

is kind of, it is, it is blind.

577

:

It is totally a blind way to

look at the future pathway.

578

:

, We currently, and I said this , we

currently have about double the number of

579

:

animals, dogs and cats per capita, dogs

in particular, of any developed nation.

580

:

It is going to reach a saturation point.

581

:

Most of the U.

582

:

S.

583

:

it's already at the saturation point.

584

:

Most of the U.

585

:

S.

586

:

animals are not moving out of

shelters and moving out of rescues.

587

:

Rescues are taking a trickle of what

they were taking of the number of

588

:

animals that they were taking just a few

years ago, and people can blame COVID.

589

:

They can blame this.

590

:

They can blame that.

591

:

This was coming.

592

:

This was coming.

593

:

The shelters that are releasing

intact, it's, and it is a hard problem

594

:

because so many have no access to a

local vet and the local vet for the

595

:

rural shelters, they are diminishing.

596

:

We do not have an increase in access.

597

:

I would love personally to

see veterinary schools do what

598

:

Oklahoma State University has done.

599

:

They have a shelter medicine program.

600

:

It is very affordable to

the rescues and shelters.

601

:

You have to be a non profit.

602

:

Your own veterinarian has to sign on.

603

:

And they do a lot of animals for a

lot of places that otherwise could not

604

:

get their pets fixed before placement,

and the students come out with, with

605

:

more surgical experience than they

would have otherwise had, I would

606

:

love to see programs like that, even

put in satellites, you know, in a few

607

:

communities, let the veterinary students

get the experience that they need and

608

:

help with this problem for the shelters.

609

:

Because, like I said, if the shelter

is releasing intact, they're,

610

:

they're a part of the problem.

611

:

They're not part of the solution.

612

:

DrG: We have been increasing

our mentorship program for

613

:

students for that reason.

614

:

Right?

615

:

Because I think that it is important, as

you mentioned, for them to get the skills.

616

:

So even if they go into general

practice, it doesn't matter where

617

:

they go, they have skills to be able

to do surgeries more efficiently.

618

:

So they may be able to do more

surgeries in their day to begin with.

619

:

But yeah, what better way for these

students to learn about high efficiency,

620

:

high volume sterilization than going

to these places that really, really

621

:

need it, that have a surplus of animals

that need the help, that need done.

622

:

And then the shelters are getting

a lower cost surgery care because

623

:

these students are learning.

624

:

So they're, they're going there.

625

:

They're volunteering their time and

they're helping reduce the problem

626

:

because we do see two problems that we

see with shelters that are sending out

627

:

animals that are not sterilized are

going to be the animals that the shelter

628

:

didn't know that it was pregnant when

they took it in and then they release

629

:

it and the dog is already pregnant.

630

:

And now it becomes this person's

problem and this person may either

631

:

do something about it or not.

632

:

He may just say, Hey, here's

these 10 puppies that this dog

633

:

that you adopted me out had.

634

:

And now here at the shelter

now has 10 more dogs.

635

:

Or we have had clinics that we

have gone in to do animals that the

636

:

owner is responsible and brings it

back for the contract spay But it's

637

:

been six seven eight months and

the dog got pregnant at some point.

638

:

So it's not you know, they're

not doing it on purpose.

639

:

It's an accidental litter, but the end

result is the same is this animal was

640

:

released intact And it resulted in a

higher volume of animals than the shelter

641

:

started, you know, they adopted one dog,

and then they took back in eight more.

642

:

So the numbers, the numbers are horrible.

643

:

Ruth Steinberger: I'm sure what

you're doing is, is labor intensive.

644

:

In terms of, you know, being on, on

the road with them, but, you know, if

645

:

the money were spent, it could be less

labor intensive, and we could have

646

:

veterinarians who do graduate with a

lot more spays under their belt, that

647

:

would benefit them, it would benefit

the community hiring them, and it

648

:

would certainly benefit the animals.

649

:

DrG: Yeah, it is.

650

:

It is labor intensive and it, it is

costly to us because veterinary students,

651

:

especially at the very beginning,

they're not very efficient, right?

652

:

They take longer.

653

:

They, they waste more supplies,

but I look at it on the longterm.

654

:

So we, for instance, right now we have

three students that have been with us

655

:

since , since the beginning of the summer.

656

:

And these, and these guys

have improved incredibly.

657

:

So, uh, each one of them can do

between 20 and 30 surgeries in a day.

658

:

And this is a combination

of dogs and cats.

659

:

Right.

660

:

So yeah, they were, they, they took

time and money to get them trained.

661

:

But now I have three vet students

that are able to produce at a high

662

:

quality, high volume, efficient level.

663

:

And they're going to graduate, and

regardless of where they go, these

664

:

are people that are efficient.

665

:

Efficiency also improves safety

of the patients, because they're

666

:

under anesthesia less, they don't

lose as much body temperature.

667

:

So, and now they are productive, right?

668

:

So they started costing me time

and money, but now the amount

669

:

of supervision is a lot less.

670

:

I just have to be present there

for if they have any issues,

671

:

any concerns, any problems.

672

:

But cost wise, they're not costing us

any money because they are producing.

673

:

They are producing as much

as somebody that has graduated

674

:

and has been doing this.

675

:

So, so yeah, it is, it is worth it.

676

:

Ruth Steinberger: We need

to educate the students.

677

:

It's very conceivable that a

student who says, yes, I want to

678

:

come out and I want to, they could

go to you, become proficient.

679

:

And then they could take on a four county

program, work four days a week, and make

680

:

a doggone good living, you know, and enjoy

a rural area, enjoy an area in which they

681

:

can invest in, in a home and some land

that is going to appreciate instead of,

682

:

you know, killing themselves and then,

you know, being three years into it and

683

:

really being in a terrible quagmire.

684

:

People could have their independence

and have a great income.

685

:

But we can't do that if we're not going

to invest in some infrastructure and

686

:

treat this as a public health issue.

687

:

So, if we're reducing the numbers

that are having local litters, and

688

:

we're investing in making those animals

transferable, either to a home or to a

689

:

larger organization that takes some of

them, you know, I mean, we can sit down

690

:

and really look at a forward pathway

that changes this entire picture.,

691

:

DrG: I have been working on a survey to

try to figure out how much is the cost

692

:

of sheltering for dogs and for cats.

693

:

And the whole idea of it is, okay,

how much does it take to intake this

694

:

animal and vet it and house it and on

average per animal versus if we were

695

:

just doing spay and neuter, right?

696

:

Because in theory, the shelter should be

intaking any animal that needs a home.

697

:

You're absolutely right.

698

:

Absolutely.

699

:

So, or any animal that has no home.

700

:

So if they have to take every single

animal, well, if we spay and neuter, Every

701

:

animal that needs spay and neuter, what is

the most cost effective way of doing it?

702

:

And so far, I'm finding that it's a lot

less expensive to spay and neuter than

703

:

to house an animal at the shelter, right?

704

:

Also, some of the problems that people

surrender animals for are treatable

705

:

problems that, that they just don't

have the resources to take care of.

706

:

So, in, in talking about shelter

diversion, I, I like the idea of shelter

707

:

diversion when it is a home that there's

no intentional neglect, that it is a

708

:

home that wants to keep this animal

because, again, it may take, it may cost

709

:

the shelter 350 dollars to house a dog.

710

:

Well, the problem that that dog has

may only take 100 to take care of.

711

:

Right.

712

:

And if we can help this person

and say, okay, why are you

713

:

surrendering your, your dog?

714

:

Well, because it has this skin

condition, I cannot take care of it.

715

:

You know, it's got fleas,

it's got skin infection.

716

:

So, I can't take care of it.

717

:

I don't want him to suffer,

so I want to surrender it.

718

:

Oh, okay.

719

:

So you have a problem that just requires

an exam and it requires flea prevention

720

:

and it requires antibiotics and it

requires educating you on how to control

721

:

the problem in your house, right?

722

:

That's not 350, right?

723

:

It's less than that.

724

:

So, let's get you to keep your pet.

725

:

It's one less animal to find a home for.

726

:

You're happy because you can

keep your pet and then your

727

:

pet has the care that it needs.

728

:

Right.

729

:

And then everybody wins and

it's actually less expensive.

730

:

It's more cost effective

731

:

than trying to take an extra

animal into the shelter.

732

:

So, I don't know, the shelter diversion

is being done, in my opinion, wrong,

733

:

because it is more how to keep animals

from coming to the shelter, period,

734

:

without figuring out what's the

best outcome for that animal, right?

735

:

Uh, okay.

736

:

Well, this person doesn't want this dog.

737

:

This person doesn't care about this dog.

738

:

This person is fed up with this dog.

739

:

And then we're telling them,

well, it's your responsibility.

740

:

So you figure it out.

741

:

What do you think is going

to happen to that dog?

742

:

It's going to end up in a really,

really horrible situation because you

743

:

have a person that is detached that,

that doesn't care about this life.

744

:

And then we're telling

them, you figure it out.

745

:

Ruth Steinberger: Right.

746

:

And it is absolutely going to

end up in a horrible situation.

747

:

You know, it's only, it's only

pathway forward that may not be

748

:

horrible is if it gets dumped and

it has the luck of the draw, it gets

749

:

picked up by somebody who likes it.

750

:

DrG: And we're trying to

teach people responsibility.

751

:

At the cost of animal health and safety

752

:

Ruth Steinberger: and safety and

suffering terrible suffering and people

753

:

are not learning to be responsible

by being told you have no solution

754

:

here and they turn to the only

thing they know, which is dumping.

755

:

DrG: And then the other thing

that we're seeing is an increase

756

:

in the number of stray dogs.

757

:

And we, we used to say, I mean, even

to this day, if I see a stray dog

758

:

out in the street, I think that it's

either lost or somebody dumped it.

759

:

So, now people are being

told just leave it out there.

760

:

Yeah, just leave it.

761

:

So what are we doing?

762

:

First, we are creating community dogs.

763

:

Which, the concept of

community dogs is not good.

764

:

I grew up in Puerto Rico.

765

:

There are stray dogs all over the place.

766

:

It's not a good situation for those dogs.

767

:

Ruth Steinberger: It's not acceptable.

768

:

DrG: They're not, they're not fixed.

769

:

So they're going to continue to reproduce.

770

:

A pack of dogs is a completely different

story than a colony of cats, right?

771

:

A pack of dogs can

potentially be dangerous.

772

:

So it's we are again in the

creating our own problem by

773

:

telling people, figure it out.

774

:

We are creating a problem, not

just for the animal, but we are

775

:

creating a really serious community

problem that if it escalates.

776

:

Then we are going to become, like,

those videos that we see of countries

777

:

with animals just roaming the streets

and dog bites and rabies incidents

778

:

.

Ruth Steinberger: All of it.

779

:

And, you know, the one thing that

I'm seeing with, again, this quote no

780

:

kill movement, no kill is slow kill.

781

:

There's no such thing as no kill when

we're turning them away from the shelters.

782

:

. Dogs do not find their way home.

783

:

They may be within a mile of their home.

784

:

Leaving it on the street does not

facilitate getting it back to that home.

785

:

It facilitates that lost

dog becoming even more lost.

786

:

And what we know is that if a dog does

not get reclaimed or make its way home

787

:

within 24 hours, there is very little

chance that dog is making it home.

788

:

DrG: Yeah, I see it as if you're, if

we're not doing something, okay, let's

789

:

say that it is within a certain radius

and it could potentially get back home.

790

:

It also can get hit by

a car on the way home.

791

:

It can get attacked by other animals.

792

:

It can get attacked by a human that

it's trespassing into their yard,

793

:

and it's going to, suffer from that.

794

:

And the other thing is.

795

:

We're, we, we encourage people

to, microchip and shelters are

796

:

microchipping, so that if your

animal gets lost, it can come back.

797

:

If your animal gets lost and nobody picks

it up, how is it gonna get back to you?

798

:

Ruth Steinberger: My, yeah, they've

completely, this, this logic has

799

:

completely diminished the value

of microchipping to nothing.

800

:

If you don't take the animal in at the

shelter, and the person doesn't have

801

:

the wherewithal to pick the animal

up and drive it somewhere, people

802

:

don't have a scanner in their kitchen.

803

:

You know, I mean, there's no value

to microchipping if the dog is

804

:

not going where it can be scanned.

805

:

Zero.

806

:

If you're not going to have that animal

go to a point, place, and typically that's

807

:

a shelter that's going to read the scan

and track the dog down, then there is

808

:

no value to the chip and tags go, you

know, wherever they go, tags do fall off.

809

:

And, um, you know, we have got to just get

this down to that if we do not stop the

810

:

overpopulation from happening, we are not

going to humanely solve the issues, leave

811

:

that dog on the street is not humane.

812

:

We've got to give them the space.

813

:

We've got to make sure they've had food

and try to get them back to an owner,

814

:

see if there was a problem, as you've

described, many, many situations can

815

:

be resolved, but at the bottom of it

all, if they're, they are born 8 to

816

:

10 at a time in dogs, or seven to

ten and they're adopted one at a time.

817

:

And if we don't stop the flow,

this problem of leaving animals

818

:

on the street is going to

continue to grow in in our region.

819

:

We have more animals, way more

than we've had in the past, and

820

:

it's not due to COVID, , it's due

to the interruption in sheltering.

821

:

DrG: We have to work together to

decrease just pet overpopulation

822

:

because as we mentioned earlier,

I mean, it's, it's a disease.

823

:

So we have to cure the disease.

824

:

And until we cure the disease,

we're not going to get anywhere.

825

:

We can't be at the end of it trying to

deal with the problems that it causes.

826

:

We need to be at the beginning of it.

827

:

And take care of it at the beginning

so that so that eliminates what

828

:

we're seeing, you know, we don't want

to euthanize animals at shelters.

829

:

Great.

830

:

Less intake, proper less intake results

in not as many animals being euthanized.

831

:

We have issues with shelters

being overcrowded and not enough

832

:

staff to take care of everybody.

833

:

Again, less intake because there's not

as many animals helps with that problem.

834

:

It all comes down to, we have to, to do

835

:

better at controlling pet overpopulation.

836

:

If we don't work on that, if we

don't put most of our efforts in

837

:

that, the rest, it doesn't matter.

838

:

Because we're just, , I spoke with Dr.

839

:

Blackwell, we're mopping the floor,

but we're not turning off the tap.

840

:

Right, exactly.

841

:

It's continuing, and we're taking

care of all the issues, but we are

842

:

not fixing what actually created it.

843

:

Ruth Steinberger: And at this point,

as we're closing the shelter doors,

844

:

we're not even mopping the floor.

845

:

We're just saying, oh, what a fascinating

thing it is to have a soaking wet

846

:

floor, and really we're normalizing it.

847

:

We're going to let the

dogs be on the street.

848

:

We're going to normalize street dogs.

849

:

We're going to normalize what is

unconscionable, you know, and yeah,

850

:

we're not even mopping the floor now,

we're just saying let the tap run.

851

:

It's good.

852

:

It's all good.

853

:

And it's not, it's not, you know,

what you're doing is, is really

854

:

changing what the capacity is going

to look like for people needing

855

:

veterinary services and facilitating

the right things happening for animals.

856

:

I mean, making sure that veterinarians

are comfortable in, you know, some

857

:

capacity of high volume, so that we

can use and develop infrastructure.

858

:

DrG: Yeah, because the other problem that

I see from the forensic sides, right?

859

:

So from the animal cruelty and neglect

side, I see posts where somebody has You

860

:

know, done something horrible to an animal

and people will say that's ridiculous.

861

:

They should have given it away Okay.

862

:

Let, they should have given an

863

:

Ruth Steinberger: I know, right?

864

:

DrG: Do, do we know that that person

didn't try to give it away, right?

865

:

Do we know that that person had

the ability and the resources?

866

:

I'm not condoning what the horrible,

cruel stuff that this person has done.

867

:

And as a forensic veterinarian,

I'll do everything that I can

868

:

to have justice for that animal.

869

:

But did we cause that problem?

870

:

Did we eliminate the

resources right to do that?

871

:

Right.

872

:

Um.

873

:

You have rescues, shelters, becoming

hoarders and abusing and neglecting these

874

:

animals because they have no food but

we're telling them you can't euthanize and

875

:

because then you're you're cruel and you

have to intake but you have no resources

876

:

so we're telling them you have to do

this you have to do this you have to do

877

:

this and then when they do it and they

become hoarders then we're like I can't

878

:

believe that this rescue abused all these

animals they should be there to help them.

879

:

Well, they started out wanting to help,

but then we pushed them into this corner

880

:

where they became a cruel place to be in.

881

:

So, you know, everybody's so judgmental.

882

:

Everybody is judgmental of everything that

people want to do, but we are taking away

883

:

the resources to do something about it.

884

:

You know, like, Oh, well,

you should not have 10 dogs.

885

:

You cannot afford 10 dogs.

886

:

You should not have 10 dogs.

887

:

Okay, great.

888

:

Where are they?

889

:

What are they going to

do with said 10 dogs?

890

:

Where are they going to take them?

891

:

What?

892

:

I mean, there's nowhere,

nothing for them to do about it.

893

:

So then.

894

:

Okay, so you're stuck with the 10 dogs

because we're not giving you an out.

895

:

We're not giving you an

ability to get rid of them.

896

:

And you are, and you're okay keeping

the 10 dogs, but then we're gonna tell

897

:

you that you're a horrible human being

because you're not vaccinating and

898

:

treating and doing all these things

because you can't afford to have 10 dogs.

899

:

Well, you should have spayed and neutered.

900

:

You should have spayed your, your female.

901

:

Great,

902

:

but there is no resource

to spay your female.

903

:

Ruth Steinberger: Oh, it's exactly,

it's exactly what's happening.

904

:

DrG: It's ongoing.

905

:

It's a circle that never ends.

906

:

It's not a circle, it's,

it's a ball, right?

907

:

It's like every direction.

908

:

Ruth Steinberger: Exactly.

909

:

It's exactly, it's a, it's an ugly

ball that's, you know, um, and what

910

:

you're saying, I mean, I'm sure you see

the, the, um, some of the listservs.

911

:

That are just lists of horrible

things that have happened to cats.

912

:

It's comes out monthly and, many

of the animals that were victimized

913

:

were turned away from shelters.

914

:

There's, um, a listserv that comes out

of PETA that details, you know, it's

915

:

a monthly list of terrible things that

have happened to cats, and many of

916

:

them were turned away from shelters.

917

:

They'll say they know the history.

918

:

This cat was left because X, Y, and

Z, and then the cat is found, and

919

:

there's been terrible suffering.

920

:

And, uh, you know, it, it, it is not okay

to, to turn them away and then say we've

921

:

achieved no kill, we've achieved strays.

922

:

That's all that was achieved.

923

:

, DrG: I only have the cats that I can

take care of, so it would be very easy

924

:

for me to say, well, I have control over

what I have, so everybody else should

925

:

have control over what they have, but not

everybody has the resources that I have.

926

:

And again, like we had said before, most

of these animals are taken in as strays.

927

:

They're not being purchased.

928

:

It's not an irresponsible situation.

929

:

So somebody's trying to do what's best

and they're trying to help and then

930

:

they have no resources And they end up

in a bind, and instead of figuring out

931

:

how can we help these people, we take

this grandstanding and say, you're just

932

:

irresponsible, and it's not my problem.

933

:

Well, I got news for everybody.

934

:

It's, it's all our problem.

935

:

It's all our problems.

936

:

It affects all of us.

937

:

We, we all have, whether we are the

so called responsible owner or not,

938

:

We are responsible for everything

that happens in our community.

939

:

And at the very least, if we are not

gonna help, if we cannot help directly,

940

:

we can help by not being judgmental

and by, you know, pointing a finger

941

:

and saying what people are doing wrong.

942

:

So the, the people that, the people

that go on social media and somebody

943

:

is saying moving to a new place,

can't take my, my dog with me.

944

:

I tried to find a place

that accepted animals.

945

:

I couldn't, have to go, you

know, this is my, my dog.

946

:

Um, and half of the comments are,

you're ridiculous, I can't believe that.

947

:

Like, you know, it's

948

:

trash.

949

:

And it's like, and that's the

negative that I'm talking about.

950

:

There is no, instead of saying,

yeah there are, you just don't care,

951

:

you're not looking hard enough.

952

:

Instead of doing that, there's

the saying, hey, I don't know if

953

:

you have looked at these resources

954

:

that are available.

955

:

Maybe there is a way for you

to be able to keep your pet.

956

:

Maybe there is a way to find like

a temporary foster home until

957

:

you can get back on your feet,

like a solution rather than just

958

:

Ruth Steinberger: Trashing somebody out.

959

:

DrG: Well, you're, you're

a, you're a piece of dirt.

960

:

You can't take care of it.

961

:

So you're a piece of dirt.

962

:

And, and I don't have any, any

resources or any solutions for you.

963

:

I'm just here to tell you

that, that you're worthless.

964

:

Ruth Steinberger: And even, you know,

you even see that when somebody is

965

:

posting, a rescue is posting, needing

some help, and you see 20 posts

966

:

saying, oh, I wish I could help.

967

:

This is so sad.

968

:

It's like.

969

:

Help or don't,

970

:

DrG: but you can help.

971

:

You can share, you can let other

people know, you can be a voice.

972

:

So instead of just saying, Oh, I wish I

can help, but I already have two dogs.

973

:

Saying, I cannot take this pet, but

I will share this with my groups.

974

:

I will share this with my social media.

975

:

You know, I will spread the word

about the needs that you have.

976

:

And in that way, I'm not helping

directly, but I'm helping indirectly.

977

:

Ruth Steinberger: Right.

978

:

DrG: Like we have to, we have to

learn, I guess, how to people because.

979

:

Most people don't know

how to people, right?

980

:

Right.

981

:

This has been a great conversation

full of information, has created

982

:

questions, which is great, because

we need to find questions to

983

:

continue on and to find the answers.

984

:

So if somebody that's listening, wants

to learn more about your organization

985

:

and what you guys do, where can they go?

986

:

Ruth Steinberger: Well, we are at

SpayFirst, all one word, spayfirst.

987

:

org., And they can either email info

@spayfirst.org or me, ruth@spayfirst.org.

988

:

Most of our work is in the research in

canine and feline contraception that will

989

:

hit the ground very affordable and, you

know, can be given like a regular vaccine

990

:

stored at regular vaccine temperatures

given by somebody who is approved to

991

:

give a regular intramuscular injection.

992

:

With that said, what is so important

wherever you are, if you are a

993

:

listener, support your local spay

neuter program, support your animal

994

:

sheltering at your local animal shelter.

995

:

In doing the right thing, in taking

in animals, in helping to get them

996

:

spayed and neutered, figuring out how

to develop local programs, supporting

997

:

your local spay neuter program.

998

:

It is so needed.

999

:

Anywhere that people are

listening to your podcast, they

:

01:05:32,006 --> 01:05:33,866

can help on the prevention end.

:

01:05:35,221 --> 01:05:43,231

And one spay is worth taking in five

puppies, seven puppies, you know, 11.

:

01:05:43,281 --> 01:05:47,681

I mean, just the numbers are

daunting on the aftermath end.

:

01:05:48,291 --> 01:05:53,991

We need an army of people working to

prevent the tragedies and anyone listening

:

01:05:53,991 --> 01:05:58,061

to your podcast can, you know, can do it.

:

01:05:58,871 --> 01:05:59,431

DrG: That's right.

:

01:06:00,138 --> 01:06:04,248

Well, thank you so much for spending this

time and for sharing this information.

:

01:06:04,688 --> 01:06:10,068

And I'm looking forward to seeing this

vaccine because I know that we will

:

01:06:10,078 --> 01:06:13,978

have great use for it in some of the

rural communities that we travel to.

:

01:06:14,498 --> 01:06:18,938

And, you know, every little bit that

we can do is more than doing nothing.

:

01:06:19,575 --> 01:06:22,615

Ruth Steinberger: Well, you know,

and that's exactly how we feel

:

01:06:22,665 --> 01:06:28,105

is just, you know, that we must

have all of the tools in the box.

:

01:06:28,715 --> 01:06:32,225

Um, spay, neuter, what you're

doing, surgeries, that's

:

01:06:32,225 --> 01:06:33,575

going to be the gold standard.

:

01:06:33,825 --> 01:06:36,395

That's going to be the gold

standard for a long time.

:

01:06:37,075 --> 01:06:43,695

But if we can prevent,:

along the way, and prevent 1000 more

:

01:06:43,695 --> 01:06:49,585

next year, litters, you know, think

about that, that what that word means

:

01:06:49,885 --> 01:06:55,815

in cats, it means three or four, you

know, so, what we feel is that this

:

01:06:56,095 --> 01:07:02,666

can make such a difference that, it

can help in areas where we cannot ramp

:

01:07:02,666 --> 01:07:05,286

up the numbers of spays quite enough.

:

01:07:05,876 --> 01:07:11,066

And if people want to help and

donate to our effort to develop the

:

01:07:11,066 --> 01:07:16,966

contraceptive vaccine, they can certainly

go online and donate at spayfirst.

:

01:07:16,966 --> 01:07:17,416

org.

:

01:07:18,460 --> 01:07:20,990

DrG: Well, thank you very much

for spending this time with us.

:

01:07:21,570 --> 01:07:25,000

And to everybody that's

listening, thank you for listening

:

01:07:25,050 --> 01:07:26,279

and thank you for caring.

:

01:07:27,260 --> 01:07:28,570

Ruth Steinberger: Will bark at you soon.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.