Episode 63

full
Published on:

11th Jun 2024

Stop Poisoning Our Birds! Massachusetts Advocates Fighting Against Anticoagulant Rodenticides part 1

This is part one of a two-part series on the petition created by the Harvard Law School's Animal Law Clinic on behalf of wildlife animal advocates seeking to eliminate anticoagulant rodenticides in Massachusetts. Not only are these poisons a cruel way to kill rodents, the victims of these devices extend to wildlife and even species that are protected.

Our guests will discuss how they have come together in this fight, the importance of education of the public on this issue, and what we can do together to promote species conservation and welfare. They will also share their personal experiences as they are first hand witnesses of the injuries suffered by eagles, hawks, owls, and other wildlife.

Part I guests are:

Lla Anderson, law student at the Harvard Law School

Laura Kiesel, founder of Save Arlington Wildlife

Part II guests are:

Marci Cemenska founder of Save Lexington Wildlife

James Joyce II, founder of Friends of Horn Pond

Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcript
DrG:

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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This episode is actually divided into

two parts, parts one and part two.

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The title of this episode

is Stop Poisoning Our Birds.

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Massachusetts advocates fighting

against anticoagulant rodenticides.

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So I was scrolling through LinkedIn and

I saw this article on this petition

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that was created by Harvard Law School

asking the state of Massachusetts to

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basically stop placing rodenticides.

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And the main reason for it was the

damage to the environment, but in

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particular the damage to the birds,

how these rodenticides are actually

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causing damage to, to the birds.

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And some of these birds are birds that

are on the endangered species list.

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Speak about this issue, I

have four amazing guests.

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For part one, our guests are going

to be Lla Anderson, who is a student

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at the Harvard law school and Laura

Kiesel from Save Arlington Wildlife.

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On part two of this episode is

going to be Marci Cemenska from

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Save Lexington Wildlife and James

Joyce II from Friends of Horn Pond.

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Our first guest is going to be Lla

Anderson, who is a candidate at Harvard

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Law School and Harvard Divinity School.

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Welcome to the show, Lla.

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Lla Anderson: Yeah, thanks for having me.

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DrG: Can you give us a little bit

of information on your background,

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kind of where you started and

what led you to law school?

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Lla Anderson: Yeah, so I'm from Florida.

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Grew up in Florida.

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We just have very unique nature,

wildlife, animals, you know,

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alligators and, and the like.

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And so growing up in Florida, I

was able to just be around wildlife

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and that really played a role in

cultivating this love for nature for me.

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I wanted to be a veterinarian

when I was a kid.

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Um, I truly was convinced

that I would be Dr.

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Doolittle.

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And, um, I also loved Eliza

Thornberry from The Wild Thornberries.

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So, definitely had a strong

connection with animals.

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I was vegetarian the first

five years of my life.

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Um, fast forward, I started getting

into, uh, learning more about

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factory farming and slaughterhouses

when I was in middle school.

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So, I would watch all kinds of

videos and documentaries on it.

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And that was definitely something that,

I was interested in, but it sort of

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kind of stayed in the background and

I ended up, you know, being, looking

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into other things in terms of career

paths, um, like theater and music

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and stuff like that, entertainment.

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And then that all changed, uh,

sophomore year of undergrad.

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I interned in D.

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C.

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and I saw just, How and before this

had no interest in being a lawyer.

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It was kind of in the back of my head, but

I just I didn't know too much about it and

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I felt like lawyers seem to be just very,

you know, self serious and and type a.

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And that, that, that, that's true, but

there's also way more to it than that

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in so many different personalities.

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Um, but yeah, I interned in DC,

saw how much lawyers knew, and

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I wanted to, to be one of them.

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And so, um, started studying, and I,

um, um, found my way to law school,

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so applied to Harvard, um, ended up

culating into Harvard, um, in:

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I was a vegan at that point.

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I became vegan in undergrad, um, and yeah.

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Initially, uh, I was vegan

for sustainability reasons.

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Animals was a reason, but

it wasn't my number one.

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I was interested in sustainability

in undergrad, and that was

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my whole life in undergrad.

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So, um, it all changed, though, when

I joined the Animal Law Society.

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at Harvard and just learned more

and more about just our food systems

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and how animals are treated and

speciesism and how we regard ourselves

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and how we regard other animals.

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And that basically just sort of led me

back to who I was as a kid and how much

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I loved animals and just My, my core.

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And so after that, it

just changed everything.

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Um, and I just got into animal law

and I took the animal law course.

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Um, I started getting more involved in

the animal law society, uh, and I got

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involved in the animal law clinic, which

is how we got the rodenticide case.

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Um, but yeah, that's the long story,

but I've always loved animals.

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Took a little break from deciding

what I wanted to do, which in

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whether it involved animals and

then found it again in law school.

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DrG: That's great that you are able to

merge your loves, your love for animals

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and then your newfound love for law.

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Lla Anderson: Yeah, for

law, which is surprising,

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DrG: but yeah.

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Well, and congratulations on being at

Harvard Law School because, you know,

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whenever we think about the top law

schools in the country, Harvard is always

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one of the things that, you know, the

colleges that most everybody will know.

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So congratulations on, on doing that.

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Thank you.

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So tell us about this law clinic.

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What is, what is a law clinic?

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How does that work?

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Lla Anderson: So basically a law

clinic is very similar to a non

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profit, pretty much is a non profit.

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So what we do is we have clients

and um, law students are able,

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they're given the opportunity

to basically do real world work.

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Um, it's, it's sort of like an

experiential learning credit in

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college and in other, in other

opportunities, very much like a.

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A lab, for instance, where you're able

to learn apply what you learn in class in

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real life and act as a student attorney.

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And so basically, yeah, you,

you get to be around and get

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to learn more about real cases.

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You get to help real people and clients.

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You do research writing.

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Your work could entail interviews in

some clinics, you could go to court.

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Um, yeah, so it sort of runs

the gamut, but basically each

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clinic has its own sort of focus.

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You can have an environmental

law clinic, you can have a public

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defense clinic, and of course you

can have an animal law clinic.

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So that's pretty much what a clinic is.

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DrG: So I imagine, I mean, this is,

this is great for the individuals that

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are seeking this kind of help, but then

it's great for you guys as students.

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for being able to get experience prior

to graduating and going into practice?

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Lla Anderson: Definitely.

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You don't have to pay out of the wazoo

for, in terms of the clients, for help.

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And, um, the students are

able to get really as much

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experience as they would like.

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And, you know, there

is a difference in law.

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Um, you know, when you, when you're taking

your 1L law courses, pretty much that sort

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of dynamic where you're not doing clinic

work is, it leans more towards academia.

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It's different.

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theory.

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Um, but then in your second and third

years, um, at law school, when you're able

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to take clinics, then now you're looking

at law from the standpoint of an actual

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practicing attorney and what exactly

the day to day looks like, as opposed

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to being in the classroom and studying

and having the whole graduate school,

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um, environment, um, being the, the main

point of your law school experience.

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DrG: So this case that we're going

to be talking about is basically

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about the use of rodenticides

and how they are damaging to the

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environment, not only to the animals.

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Yeah.

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So.

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, can you give us a little bit

of background on this case?

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Lla Anderson: Yeah.

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Um, so this case, so there are a

few things to note in the case.

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Um, pretty much you had, we have, uh,

our clients were rehabilitators and, um,

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advocates, um, in different Massachusetts

areas, but specifically, um, we're

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dealing with a few from Arlington.

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And so basically the issue

is bald eagles are dying.

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Okay.

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Bald eagles, which are protected

species in this country, um, protected

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also, well, first of all, our national

symbol in the United States, um, and,

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you know, protected also, of course,

in Massachusetts under the Endangered

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Species Act, and they were dying.

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And, um, so you had a lot of advocates

and rehabilitators who were concerned

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about these animals just one day

just getting sick and, you know, very

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rapidly, um, developing very anemic

like conditions, um, bruising, bleeding,

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um, animals that they've observed

for years who are now acting very

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differently and who are very clearly ill.

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Um, dying.

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And so the rehabilitators also, more

than just the bald eagles, they've

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seen red tailed hawks, owls dying.

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So you have, you had individuals seeing

this and wanting to do something about

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it and trying and wanting to know, you

know, what was going on and all of the.

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The necropsy reports came back that

all of these animals, um, most, if not

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all, um, I will get there in terms of

there was a study that, um, a recent

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study where 100 percent of the birds

that were sick that were tested did

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have rodenticides, anticoagulant

rodenticides in their systems.

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But, um, In terms of the animals

that were dying, as I'm talking

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about, most of them were poisoned

with anticoagulant rodenticides when

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the necropsy or autopsy came back.

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And the anticoagulant rodenticides

off the charts in terms of the amount

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of poisons that were in their bodies.

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So these groups of people, they, they, you

know, very much on the ground, um, whether

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they're photographers, rehabilitators.

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Um, conservationists, and they were

trying to push for, um, the state of

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Massachusetts to do something about this.

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And so that is basically

how we got the case.

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So they ended up, you know, um, find,

you know, uh, looking up the Harvard

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Animal Law Clinic, saw the work that

we did, and brought this case to us.

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DrG: So the, the main thing

about it is about the fact how

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it's, uh, killing the, the birds.

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And I did see that study about the, I

think it was the red tailed hawks, all

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of the ones that they found, every single

one had evidence of rodenticide poisoning.

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So the, the issue is really from

the Massachusetts department

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of natural resources, right?

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That they are, uh, in charge.

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of determining the, the types of pest

controls that are, that are used?

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Lla Anderson: Yeah, the Massachusetts,

it's the department, you're close, the

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Department of Agricultural Resources.

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And they are in charge of,

determining whether this pesticide

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is a threat to the environment.

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DrG: So from what I was hearing, it says that they have, they do not meet the

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standards because they cause unreasonable

adverse effects to the environment.

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Lla Anderson: They do.

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What

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DrG: does that mean?

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What is the meaning of that?

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Lla Anderson: so in the law, this, this

term reasonability, it's everywhere.

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Um, yeah, it dictates, you know,

what is permissible and what isn't.

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Um, and so reasonability just means, is,

the effects of this rodenticide is it

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so harmful or are its effects such that

it's no longer reasonable to, you know,

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keep, uh, considering this rodenticide,

um, or this poison or this chemical,

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this substance, whatever, uh, whatever

have you as something that should be

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the standard or something that should

be, um, that should proliferate in

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our society as much as it has been.

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So basically, the reasonable standard

is just sort of like within means.

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And so, reasonability, if we're talking

about the environment, one could say

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a reasonable standard, an example of

something being reasonable, though this

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is questionable, is, um, basically,

you know, pollution from cars.

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Is it reasonable, um, the amount of

pollution that can come from a car?

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Um, And I think that people, for the

most part, would agree, okay, if a,

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you know, car that's putting down the

street doesn't pollute an insane amount,

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basically, if a car didn't pollute as

much as an 18 wheeler, then, you know,

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It's reasonable, whatever it's polluting.

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Um, but then, of course, if a cat,

if a car was polluting as much

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as an 18 wheeler, then I think

one would say that that is an

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unreasonable amount of pollution.

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And so the same thing sort of applies to

the reasonability of, whether the adverse

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effects are reasonable or unreasonable.

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And when you see the ecological

devastation and the just detrimental.

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impact that rodenticides or

anticoagulant rodenticides

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are having in our environment.

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It is very clear that, um,

it is unreasonable and it's

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having an unreasonable adverse

effect on our environment.

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DrG: As a veterinarian, uh, I worked in

emergency for many years and we would

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see dogs and cats that would come in,

you know, poisoned from this because

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unfortunately it is something that a

lot of people purchase for use in their

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homes and a lot of individuals don't

even know the dangers of it, right?

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They think, well, it's just, mouse

killer or, you know, rat poison,

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and they don't understand that

it's going to hurt their animals.

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And not only from the animals

ingesting it directly, but also

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from ingesting the, the mice or the

rats that, that have gotten in it.

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And it's such a horrible and

prolonged, cruel death, right?

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It

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Lla Anderson: is.

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It is.

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And you have, you have the primary

consumers and the secondary consumers.

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The primary consumers are the rodents.

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The secondary consumers are the

coyotes, the raccoons, the bald

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eagles, the red tailed hawks,

the owls, so on and so forth.

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And so people don't, people don't, I

mean, the thing is, it's intentional

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that people are not told how detrimental

these rodenticides are and how they're

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much worse than your typical rodenticide.

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Because the anticoagulant

nature of the rodenticide means

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that basically any animal that

consumes it, their blood clots.

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And so for the purpose of giving it to

rodents, it's a very cruel way to die.

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So these anticoagulant rodenticides

are sort of placed in these black

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boxes around, these rodents eat them.

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Well, rodents are so intelligent

that with normal poisons, if the

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rodent eats it and then immediately

dies, other rodents Will steer clear.

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They will not go.

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They will know exactly what it looks like.

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Um, and so they will not go

near whatever they presume or

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rightfully assumed to be poison.

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Well, anticoagulant

rodenticides are different.

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They're way more, um, uh, nefarious,

I would say, in terms of the effect

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on the animal, um, in the sense that

these rodenticides take a week, up to

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a week, to set in and for them to die.

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So they'll eat an anticoagulant

rodenticide, a secondary

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anticoagulant rodenticide.

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Uh, and they won't know.

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You know, a couple of days later,

they're still eating their fine.

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They don't, they don't know

that that is what poisoned them.

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So they're slowly being poisoned

and they could end up eating

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more and more and more of it.

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And then one day they're ways away

from where they consume that poison

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and they die and they don't know how,

or, or they don't know, you know,

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when they were poisoned, so yeah,

that's how they work in the system.

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DrG: So in the petition, basically, what

is it that you're asking for them to do?

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Lla Anderson: Well, we're

asking for two things.

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So one of the petitions that were

worked on by a couple of other

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classmates was the MDAR petition.

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So this was a petition to

the Massachusetts Department

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of Agricultural Resources.

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And it was for the immediate

Suspension of registrations of

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anti coagulant rodenticides.

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Um, so anti coagulant rodenticides

can still be purchased, though.

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There are a couple a few restrictions.

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They don't make.

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They haven't made much of a difference

in terms of the pernicious effect

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on our environment in Massachusetts.

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So it's calling for the immediate

suspension of those rodenticides and

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it's calling on MDAR to enact that.

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So that's the first one.

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The second one is a petition to the

Secretary of the Executive Office

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of Energy and Environmental Affairs.

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And it is a call for her to investigate

the impact of rodenticides on species.

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That are protected by the

Massachusetts Endangered Species

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Act, such as the bald eagle.

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Um, and so we also had another ask,

which was for the secretary to ensure

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that the Massachusetts Department of

Agricultural Resources, um, was basically

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using all practicable means to, um,

Avoid damaging, uh, the protected

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species again, such as the bald eagle.

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We're so far since 2021, four bald

eagles have died in Massachusetts.

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DrG: I think this is interesting because

I know that as a veterinarian, they tell

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us that we have to be very careful with

how we dispose of cadavers after they're

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euthanized with euthanasia solution.

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Because if, for instance, we.

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You know, we discard of, uh, of an

animal inappropriately and an endangered

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species feeds off that animal and

dies, we can be responsible, we can

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be held liable for the termination

of a life of an endangered species.

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And it, it almost sounds like that's

the same issue that's happening here.

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However, the, the individuals

that are doing this are not

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being held responsible for it.

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Lla Anderson: Right.

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Exactly right.

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DrG: What do you expect

will come about from this?

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Lla Anderson: Hopefully.

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So, there are hopes, and then there

are, um, you know, a certain uncertain,

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well, there's an uncertainty.

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So far we haven't heard, we

haven't gotten a response yet.

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I would hope that, um, Uh, anti coagulant

rodenticides are reviewed by, um, the

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Secretary of the, uh, Executive Office

of Energy and Environmental Affairs, and

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that the Secretary does look at the new

report that the EPA released stating that

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anti coagulant rodenticides actually show,

um, a negative impact on the environment.

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So I would hope that.

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You know, that would occur.

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Um, I think, you know, honestly, it's,

it's, it's sort of a wait and see.

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I think that ultimately there are people,

you know, we have advocates, as you know,

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rehabilitators who, who aren't comfortable

with the wait and see approach.

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And so the good news is we did have a

state representative in Massachusetts who

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presented a bill to ban, um, anticoagulant

rodenticides so that's something, so

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I think that, you know, we're, we're

waiting and seeing, uh, we're waiting

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on the response, uh, but I am hopeful

because there are a lot of people,

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whether they're senior citizens, whether

they're middle aged, um, teenagers,

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um, college age, what have you who

are interested in making sure that this

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problem, this problem is addressed.

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DrG: At least having, knowing that you

have the support or at least one state

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representative is really important, right?

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Because at least you know that you

have somebody up there that's looking

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out and that, um, is, is interested

in being a voice for these animals.

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Right, right.

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Lla Anderson: I also think it's

important to mention that these

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anticoagulant rogenticides are pernicious

and they Destroy our environment.

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Um, we mentioned it.

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I touched on it.

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But to get more specific,

coyotes are being poisoned by

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anti coagulant rodenticides.

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And the reason why coyotes are

important is because coyotes

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determine the health of the ecosystem.

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They're right in the

middle of the food chain.

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So if you're noticing that coyotes

have mange, they're bruising, they're

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emaciated, hemorrhaging, bleeding from the

insides, because that is how, that is the

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effect of these secondary anticoagulant

rodenticides on these animals bodies.

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So these animals often

choke on their own blood.

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Um, there was one owl in, in

Boston, in the Faneuil Hall, and

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he was found by some, um, some

citizens, and luckily he was because

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if not, he would have soon died.

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He was showing signs of hemorrhaging.

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He was blind.

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He still is blind now as a result of

the poisons, but he is healthy now.

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And so basically I'm saying that to

say, this is destroying our environment.

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It's destroying the food chain.

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Um, and that affects everything,

so we really do have to make sure

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that we see this for what it is,

which is, you know, an emergency.

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Um, I, I also want to add that this

has an effect on the rehabilitators as

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well, who are dealing with, you know,

The bleeding, the blood, um, the loss

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of motivation sometimes, um, day in

and day out because they continue to

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see these animals poisoned and bleeding

and there's nothing they can do there.

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Well, they're trying to do their

best, but right now they're very

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limited as to what they can do.

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And so, you know, we have to make sure

that this is addressed because it's.

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It's really detrimental and it

affects our environment physically.

349

:

It also affects the mental

health of individuals, um,

350

:

who work hands on with this.

351

:

And it's just unnecessary.

352

:

There are so many other options

to, to addressing the, uh, any sort

353

:

of rodent issue that may occur.

354

:

And the one last thing I'll say

is, um, uh, Flacco the Owl and the

355

:

Central Park Owl just passed away.

356

:

He passed away because of a window strike.

357

:

So if you don't know about Flacco

the Owl, Flacco the Owl, um,

358

:

is, was a, was a captive owl.

359

:

who escaped captivity and basically

would fly around Central Park, and he

360

:

was just a spectacle in New York City.

361

:

People loved him.

362

:

People got out of bed

every day to see him.

363

:

Birdwatchers were excited to

see him, and he represented so

364

:

much to people in New York City.

365

:

Um, he was sort of like a,

the mascot of Central Park.

366

:

That's how he was described.

367

:

Oflaco was, you know, free for about

a year and a year and a half until

368

:

he died suddenly and he died by

a window strike in New York City.

369

:

He died from a window strike.

370

:

Well, after a necropsy was conducted,

you can guess what happened.

371

:

There were anticoagulant

rodenticides in Flacco's body.

372

:

And so rodenticides

also affect the vision.

373

:

Of an animal, the vision of a

bird, and they affect the way that

374

:

they perceive objects, whether

they're close, not close, etc.

375

:

And so that was the, that, that

is the reason why Flaco died,

376

:

you know, anticoagulant or

denticides and their proliferation.

377

:

And so, um, Yeah, it's just that what

I'll say is this is an issue that's

378

:

so important, and I would even go

so far as to say that anticoagulant

379

:

rodenticides are our generation's DDT.

380

:

And we saw how DDT decimated bald

eagle populations before it was banned.

381

:

And before we could start conserving

and making sure that these populations

382

:

were able to flourish again.

383

:

And we just got to the point now

where these populations are coming

384

:

back and now, with anticoagulant or

denticides, they are threatened again.

385

:

DrG: We talk about, you know,

saying devil's advocate.

386

:

Well, how are we supposed to get rid of

the mice and the, and the rats and stuff.

387

:

But then also we don't think about the

fact that if we're killing the raptors,

388

:

if we're killing the animals that are

supposed to eliminate these to eliminate,

389

:

Lla Anderson: exactly

390

:

DrG: like we are just shooting ourselves

in the foot, like what do you think is

391

:

going to happen if we eliminate all these

eagles and the coyotes and stuff like we,

392

:

we take them out of the, out of the cycle.

393

:

And then all we're going

to do is cause the.

394

:

A shift.

395

:

In the, in the balance, we're

going to have an imbalance,

396

:

Lla Anderson: right?

397

:

Well, we'll have, right.

398

:

We'll have an even greater rat

problem, you know, and there are so

399

:

many ways to, there are so many ways

to alternatives, making sure that

400

:

your trash is away, making sure that

you plug up holes, you know, it's the

401

:

integrated pest management approach.

402

:

So there are so many other ways to.

403

:

To, you know, solve that problem as

opposed to just putting these really

404

:

horrible poisons that are killing

these beautiful animals that are

405

:

affecting the entire food chain, um,

decimating the entire food chain that

406

:

are affecting also kids and pets.

407

:

So, yeah, yeah.

408

:

And then also, of course, as you said,

again, if we keep doing this, we're just

409

:

going to continue exacerbating the problem

that's already happening right now.

410

:

DrG: Yeah, sometimes we cause our

own problems and then we blame.

411

:

The environment for it.

412

:

Yeah, the environment,

413

:

Lla Anderson: exactly.

414

:

DrG: But we're the one, we're the

ones doing it, so we need to take some

415

:

responsibility and take some proactive

action instead of, you know, trying

416

:

to, to find the, the easy way out.

417

:

Because the easy way out is just never it.

418

:

It is not always a band aid

solution, is not, is not

419

:

Lla Anderson: a solvent.

420

:

Yeah.

421

:

DrG: Excellent.

422

:

Well, thank you so much for

spending this time with us,

423

:

for sharing this information.

424

:

Best of luck in your studies.

425

:

Lla Anderson: Thank you.

426

:

Same to you.

427

:

DrG: Yeah, thank you for being here.

428

:

Lla Anderson: Thank you

so much for having me.

429

:

DrG: Our next guest is going

to be Laura Kiesel, who is the

430

:

founder of Save Arlington Wildlife.

431

:

Welcome to the junction, Laura.

432

:

Laura Kiesel: Thank you

for having me today.

433

:

DrG: So can you start by letting our

listeners know about your background?

434

:

Laura Kiesel: Sure.

435

:

Um, so my first degree is in, in

literature and journalism, but then I went

436

:

back to school to study wildlife biology.

437

:

Um, and I eventually completed my

master's degree in natural resources

438

:

management, um, and sciences.

439

:

And so.

440

:

I had worked a number of environmental

non profit jobs and also for some

441

:

municipal government agencies for their

like natural resources commission.

442

:

So I, I kind of come from

a wildlife biology and

443

:

environmental policy background.

444

:

DrG: The topic that we are discussing

here is the use of the rodenticides, and

445

:

then how they are affecting wildlife.

446

:

So how did you become involved with this?

447

:

Laura Kiesel: Sure.

448

:

So this, this issue literally

landed on my doorstep.

449

:

One day in 2015, I walked out of my

apartment into my parking lot and there

450

:

was a pest control professional putting,

um, 20 bait stations around the property.

451

:

And I was.

452

:

Somewhat familiar with these poisons.

453

:

I, again, at the time I was working

for, uh, or I just completed working.

454

:

I was, had recently been laid off, but

for several years I had been working for

455

:

a municipal agency, um, in Massachusetts

where they had an integrated pest

456

:

management plan where they had basically

all registered pesticides were not

457

:

allowed to be used on their public

lands, including these rodenticides.

458

:

So I had some familiarity through

my, my last, uh, job position.

459

:

And I also had been.

460

:

keeping track of the news.

461

:

Um, you know, I'm also an environmental

journalist and I had also seen

462

:

that California was doing some

more regulations of these poisons.

463

:

So I was very alarmed that one day

someone was just putting 20 bait stations

464

:

down and I was became increasingly

concerned because when I started to

465

:

ask him questions, he was evasive and

even told me things that weren't true.

466

:

First, he indicated that they were traps.

467

:

And I looked at the labels and I, I

clarified, but those are not traps, right?

468

:

These, this, that's poison

bait and the rodent can exit.

469

:

And, um, he begrudgingly,

you know, conceded my point.

470

:

And I, I said, so anything, any wild

animals that live in the area, we had

471

:

red tailed hawknest, uh, down the block.

472

:

I mentioned them.

473

:

I said, or even my pet cat could.

474

:

If a mouse gets in the unit that's eaten

this bait could get sick if he catches

475

:

and eats that mouse and he flat out

denied it, but I knew that that was true.

476

:

I even wound up calling the company

later and getting the EPA registration

477

:

code for that particular product

that they were using and looking up.

478

:

It's called like the material data

safety sheet to see the risks to

479

:

make sure I wasn't like overstating

it in my mind and I was not.

480

:

And then I started to lobby my landlords

to get rid of these poisons, which.

481

:

Basically, it was the beginning of a

multi year battle that I didn't get them

482

:

to give those poisons up until after I

moved out, and by that time I had saved

483

:

Arlington Wildlife going, but, uh, for

years we just had those poisons, and

484

:

I watched in a short amount of time,

you know, less than a year as these

485

:

bait stations, uh, basically went from,

like, a relative rarity in my town to,

486

:

like, proliferating to the point where

I would see them On every single block,

487

:

sometimes several to a dozen, especially

in the more dense parts of town.

488

:

So I started, I started to really worry.

489

:

I started to go to board of health

meetings to talk about it with them.

490

:

I started talking to my

state representative.

491

:

I went to all these kinds of friends

of this or that park meeting.

492

:

And I have to say for the first

several years, I was treated with, um.

493

:

A lot of cynicism and even a little

bit of disdain by some places.

494

:

Um, my state representative was very

supportive, but yeah, a lot of the town

495

:

officials, a lot of these, uh, friends

groups, they, I was yelled at, I was

496

:

told I was being a chicken little, um,

and I knew seeing the amount of poison

497

:

that was being used that at some point,

like the bill was going to come due.

498

:

Um, I knew that there must've

been deaths happening, but.

499

:

But that we weren't seeing them, but

they started to become more apparent

500

:

as more high profile wildlife cases,

um, started happening in my community.

501

:

DrG: So then, you know, we're, we're

now looking at the damage that these

502

:

rodenticides are doing to, to wildlife,

especially to endangered species.

503

:

Um, and then I saw the, the research

about the red tailed hawks that 100

504

:

percent of the ones that had been

seen that year, all of them had been

505

:

exposed to rodenticide poisoning.

506

:

How, how did all this, um, I say, drive

you to reach out to the law clinic?

507

:

Laura Kiesel: So, um, as I mentioned,

I've been doing this for nearly

508

:

a decade and, um, we're getting

increasing amounts of wildlife losses,

509

:

especially in the past several years.

510

:

Here in Arlington, uh, we had a bald eagle

nest They were our first bald eagles to

511

:

nest in Arlington's borders in 60 years

since DDT had wiped the species out

512

:

of the state and most of the country.

513

:

And then, that was in 2021 when

they established the nest and

514

:

within six months, uh, one of the

chicks, uh, when it was a fledgling,

515

:

died of rodenticide poisoning.

516

:

And then last year, in March 2023, MK,

who was the matriarch eagle, uh, the

517

:

female breeding bald eagle, who was much

beloved in, Not just like the Boston

518

:

metro area, but she was known throughout

the state in the New England region,

519

:

like people would travel from miles and

miles away to see her and photograph her.

520

:

She was very acclimated to

people, so she was comfortable

521

:

being in close proximity to them.

522

:

She died last year, uh, in end of February

:

523

:

Um, and I think that was sort of

like the last straw for a lot of

524

:

us, you know, I held a vigil and a

demonstration the day after she died.

525

:

Um, or was pronounced dead.

526

:

And I thought maybe a dozen or two

dozen people might show up and over 300

527

:

people showed up, um, even though there

was like less than 24 hours notice,

528

:

um, for this, it was a week night.

529

:

It was still pretty cold

cause it was very early March.

530

:

Um, but yeah, hundreds of people showed

up, um, at this time, you know, like

531

:

state legislation, even very tepid

532

:

bills that were proposed were kind

of stalling here in Arlington.

533

:

We were the first municipality to

pass a public lands ban on the second

534

:

generation anticoagulant rodenticides.

535

:

And we also had submitted what's

called a home rule petition to

536

:

the state to ban on private lands

because the state will not allow.

537

:

Um, municipalities to ban any

pesticide on private property

538

:

without special permission.

539

:

And most states in the country

have that kind of law on the books.

540

:

Actually, the pest control lobby a couple

of decades ago, fought really hard for

541

:

what's called preemption for states

to refuse municipalities the right to

542

:

restrict pesticides on private property.

543

:

So Arlington had already

submitted a homerule petition.

544

:

The city of Newton then

followed in our footsteps.

545

:

But it still was just not enough.

546

:

And so, after MK died, A concerned

group of citizens who have

547

:

been very active in this issue.

548

:

Several wildlife rehabbers

and other, um, people that you

549

:

saw listed on the petition.

550

:

We had a Zoom meeting, uh, with the

executive director of Raptors are

551

:

the solution, or rats, and they're

based in California and they have

552

:

a, they were successful in getting

a, getting a moratorium on SGARs

553

:

in most sectors in the states.

554

:

So we asked her for some ideas or or like

what some of the things that she did.

555

:

And she basically had

some pro bono legal help.

556

:

And so she really urged us to

look into like legal avenues.

557

:

And she did mention you might want

to check out some of the student law

558

:

clinics because she had gotten help,

I think, from Stanford Law Clinic for

559

:

their from their environmental clinic.

560

:

So and looking around.

561

:

Uh, Harvard has some law clinics,

uh, there's an environmental

562

:

clinic and the animal law clinic.

563

:

And so we did some queries, uh, the

environmental clinic did not respond,

564

:

but the animal law clinic did.

565

:

And then, um, basically, they spent

the year researching this issue in

566

:

depth before making a decision of

what legal avenues were available to

567

:

us, um, to take action on this issue.

568

:

DrG: Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned, it

just kind of hits both sides, right?

569

:

Because we're concerned about the effect

on the environment in general, but then

570

:

we're also concerned about the damage that

it's causing on these animals and just the

571

:

torturous death that they undergo, right?

572

:

It's not like they get into

this poison and they just die.

573

:

Right.

574

:

They get into this poison and

they bleed to death and it is a

575

:

very prolonged and painful death.

576

:

Laura Kiesel: Yes, it basically stops

their blood from being able to clot and

577

:

even something as small as like a sneeze

or a cough or one poor owl recently,

578

:

uh, bled to death after just plucking,

you know, when, when female owls or

579

:

birds of prey are about to lay eggs or

have babies, they'll pluck their belly

580

:

feathers out to make what's called a brood

patch so they can insulate their chicks.

581

:

And just from plucking out her

feathers, her brood patch, it's

582

:

called just, uh, Like hemorrhaged.

583

:

So just these small little incidents

can cause like these massive, um,

584

:

internal and external hemorrhaging

where they can't stop bleeding.

585

:

And yes, very painful, very torturous.

586

:

It can take days or weeks for them to die.

587

:

So it's also a welfare concern, in

addition to being a conservation concern.

588

:

And it's not just wildlife

that are vulnerable, um,

589

:

pets like pet cats and dogs.

590

:

are also vulnerable and there

have been a number of deaths.

591

:

Um, and even Children are vulnerable.

592

:

These, uh, the second generation anti

coagulants used to be available on store

593

:

shelves and brick and mortar stores,

but they, uh, were banned from store

594

:

shelves because young Children by the

thousands were getting into these poisons.

595

:

Um, they weren't at that time,

kept in bait stations and they were

596

:

getting very sick in a couple of them.

597

:

I think even died, and so it

also is public health concerns

598

:

for people, especially Children.

599

:

DrG: How bad is the rodent problem in

Massachusetts that they're, they're

600

:

going through these, um, steps of, you

know, laying so much poison around.

601

:

Laura Kiesel: So, you know, as

with all the major metro areas like

602

:

New York city and Philadelphia, I

know that we're getting increasing

603

:

rates of rodent sightings.

604

:

So I'm a little skeptical because

I know to some degree that, you

605

:

know, we're, we've been in a

construction boom since:

606

:

And I know that a lot of construction

can, you know, interfere with rat

607

:

burrows and make them more active.

608

:

So I wonder how much of it is

that we have more rats and mice.

609

:

I'm sure we do have some

because climate change is also

610

:

a problem and warming weather.

611

:

They're having they're

having babies year round.

612

:

They're having larger litters.

613

:

So I'm sure there have been some

population increases from climate change,

614

:

but also with the construction boom.

615

:

I do think some of it just might be.

616

:

We're seeing more of them because they're

their burrows are getting inter, uh,

617

:

Interrupted and they're on the move more.

618

:

And the same thing with COVID when the

COVID pandemic happened and a lot of

619

:

the restaurants shut down, uh, some

of them might've migrated into more

620

:

residential areas or because more people

were working from home telecommuting.

621

:

There's a theory that it's just when

people started noticing, I mean, people

622

:

started noticing a lot more of their

outdoor and, you know, nature experiences,

623

:

including, oh, wow, there's a rat.

624

:

Like I never noticed that before.

625

:

So that's.

626

:

That's part of it.

627

:

I actually do think that the rat

poison makes the, the problems

628

:

worse for rodent populations.

629

:

Uh, as I mentioned, I'm an

environmental journalist.

630

:

I've been researching this and I've

reported a number of articles on this.

631

:

And I remember when I did my 2021 feature

investigative feature, I searched for

632

:

weeks high and low for like a peer

review article that could, uh, You

633

:

know, talk about the efficacy of these

poisons in reducing rodent populations.

634

:

And I couldn't find a single study.

635

:

Um, it was really interesting.

636

:

I would find studies that

would call them very effective.

637

:

And then in the footnote, I would

look up the study they referred to,

638

:

and it would just say the same thing.

639

:

But it wouldn't actually have

any kind of research behind it.

640

:

So I do think a lot of it is scant.

641

:

And in my experience, we have

just continued to have more

642

:

rodent problems, despite having

these poisons be ubiquitous.

643

:

Which indicates to me that either

these poisons are not effective or

644

:

they're a contributing factor, which

would make sense because if we're

645

:

killing off their predators, like the

predators are effective at usually

646

:

like suppressing these populations.

647

:

And so we're actually might be inflating

these populations by killing off

648

:

their natural predators in the area.

649

:

DrG: Yeah, that's one of the things that

I was thinking about is that, as you

650

:

mentioned, just, That is, that is nature's

way of maintaining a balance, right?

651

:

We have this, this whole chain,

uh, this whole food chain.

652

:

And if we are doing things that are

going to affect those animals higher

653

:

in the food chain that are tasked

with eliminating these animals that

654

:

we consider pests, then all we're

doing is worsening our own problem.

655

:

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, that was actually

what I studied in school, like was

656

:

predator prey population dynamics.

657

:

And I looked more at mammals, like

wolves and stuff on deer, but I can't

658

:

help but think it's sort of like a

trophic cascade that we're, we're

659

:

inciting when we get rid of these apex

predators like hawks and owls that

660

:

were of course going to be ironically

making the rodent population worse.

661

:

And they can't rebound

like the rodents can.

662

:

Rodents, you know, they breed so

prolifically, they have such like

663

:

so many, they can have thousands,

a single pair of rats can have

664

:

like thousands of babies a year.

665

:

They can outbreed the poisons and they

can build biological immunity to these

666

:

poisons in a relatively quick amount

of time because they breed so rapidly

667

:

and they have such short lifespans.

668

:

But a bird of prey, which can live

for decades and they have short, they

669

:

only have a couple of babies a year.

670

:

If you like, kill off those

animals, they can't rebound.

671

:

So now there's like this mismatch

where the rodents outbreed the

672

:

poison, but now you've annihilated

the predators in the area because

673

:

they cannot overcome the impacts of

these poisons like the rodents can.

674

:

DrG: So what is it that your group is

hoping that happens from these petitions?

675

:

Laura Kiesel: I mean, I, ideally, I

am hoping that, um, the Massachusetts

676

:

Department of Agricultural Resources

and the Department of Energy will, uh,

677

:

seriously review the science and the

case studies that are offered in them

678

:

and, um, Make a decision that is, um,

that corresponds with that, because right

679

:

now we're not, you know, MDAR, the M.

680

:

A.

681

:

Department of Agricultural

Resources, they're supposed to

682

:

consider the environmental impacts

of any pesticides they allow to

683

:

be used, um, the pest companies to

use in the state of Massachusetts.

684

:

And that doesn't really

seem to be happening.

685

:

Um, and it, it, it seems like they're

rubber stamping this without looking at

686

:

it because if they would work to look very

closely, they would see these impacts.

687

:

Now we already have the bald eagle

case studies of several bald eagles

688

:

necropsy by the state, and there's

still a MESA listed species.

689

:

They're still on under the state

endangered species act, but we

690

:

had to do a lot of our own science

too, because the state is not other

691

:

than those MESA listed species.

692

:

The state is not testing animals.

693

:

So a lot of the wildlife rehabbers on

their own dime and or with help from

694

:

groups like Save Arlington Wildlife,

crowdfunding from like just rape, you

695

:

know, lay citizens who want to help.

696

:

We've been funding these necropsies and

basically every animal that has been

697

:

necropsied has shown SGARs exposure and

almost all but one that I know of, the,

698

:

the rates of SGARs exposure are extremely

high, um, and usually considered lethal.

699

:

So, you know, Cape and wildlife in

particular, they've done an enormous

700

:

amount of testing and data keeping

to show that this is a real problem.

701

:

Aaron Hutchings.

702

:

told me that at this point, rodenticide

poisoning, I think is their number one

703

:

reason for intake for the birds of prey.

704

:

They get, um, surpassing vehicle strikes

and a lot of their vehicle strikes.

705

:

They probably do have lower levels of

poisoning that make them susceptible

706

:

to those, those collisions.

707

:

But, um, yeah, and she's seen a real

uptick in the past seven years or so,

708

:

which have Like that's around the time

that the construction boom started and

709

:

it's also around the time the EPA pulled

these from store shelves and has companies

710

:

had more of a monopoly and I, in my

experience, at least here in Boston.

711

:

That's when it really became something

that started to on every street like

712

:

you started noticing them popping up.

713

:

DrG: One of the things that that I

discussed with Ella Anderson from

714

:

Harvard Law School was about an owl and.

715

:

An owl in New York that died

after a window strike and then

716

:

on the necropsy, they did find

out that there were anticoagulant

717

:

rodenticides and these, these poisons

can cause difficulty in vision.

718

:

So it can be, you know, with the

vehicle strikes, as you mentioned,

719

:

they, yeah, the, the car may be the

cause of death, but the mechanism

720

:

of death may be the anticoagulant

rodenticide that caused it to be blind

721

:

and not be able to evade the vehicle.

722

:

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, and, um, I think

you're talking about Flacco, the, the

723

:

owl, the, like, the celebrity owl that

everyone, you know, like, the New York

724

:

Times loved him, he was an escapee

from the Central Park Zoo, he was

725

:

a Eurasian eagle owl, so not native

to New York City, and I think that

726

:

sort of enthralled people about him.

727

:

Um, and what the media hasn't really

talked about, though, is the poison,

728

:

the main anticoagulant found in his

system, bromodiolone, the Parks Division

729

:

of New York City uses that at Central

Park and their other part parks in in

730

:

the New York City network, Um, and I

had a conversation with them at the end

731

:

of last fall, like November ish, asking

them why they were using bromodylone.

732

:

And they told me that it

was a low toxic poison.

733

:

And that's not true.

734

:

I said, where did you

get that information?

735

:

Because the EPA and I even shared

with them the EPA classification.

736

:

I was like, it's considered

moderately toxic to birds

737

:

and highly toxic to mammals.

738

:

And they told they eventually after

weeks told me it was their pest control

739

:

contractor that told them that and it's

concerning to me that so many agencies

740

:

are taking the word of the very industry

that has a conflict, you know, a vested

741

:

conflict of interest in keeping the

profits running by using this product.

742

:

So I don't understand why they're being

listened to at their word other than the

743

:

science that exists about these poisons.

744

:

DrG: Well, and to say that it's

low toxicity, I mean, toxicity

745

:

is in the dosing, right?

746

:

Like, a lot of poisons are not toxic

until you get to a certain level.

747

:

So let's say that, yeah, it's In low

doses is not toxic, but what is it

748

:

to say that these animals are not

going to ingest high quantities given

749

:

the amount that is being spread?

750

:

Laura Kiesel: Yes.

751

:

And I interviewed, um, uh, her

name was Cynthia Hopp Dennis.

752

:

She's a veterinarian with Cornell

and she's done studies on SGARs

753

:

exposure rates in New York, more like

in the Ithaca region near Cornell.

754

:

But she, she said the same thing you did.

755

:

And she mentioned, you know, like, it

doesn't even really matter what some

756

:

of the studies like lab studies are

showing because Those are very controlled

757

:

and much smaller doses than what these

animals are getting in the wild, but

758

:

also synergistically because they're

not just getting the bromodilone.

759

:

They're getting the other anticoagulants

and other poisons in their systems too.

760

:

So those are all compounding on, you know,

having a compounding impact on the animal.

761

:

And I know it, uh, New England Wildlife

Center mentioned that one of the

762

:

reasons they think that they're another

rehab clinic that they are having a

763

:

harder time rehabbing their animals

is because usually those animals

764

:

have several of the anticoagulants.

765

:

In their system, and it's they're

synergistically working together to

766

:

suppress the clotting at such an increased

rate than they used to see when it

767

:

was maybe just one poison being used.

768

:

DrG: The reading at the

Massachusetts pesticide control act.

769

:

It says that it cannot cause unreasonable

adverse effects on the environment and

770

:

is very clear that these rodenticides

are damaging the environment.

771

:

Yes.

772

:

And then the other concern as far, like

you mentioned, I mean, it's just these

773

:

are, these are endangered species, right?

774

:

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, it's, you know,

a lot of people ask, like, doesn't

775

:

the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and

the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection

776

:

Acts, they all have some language in

there about not poisoning the animals.

777

:

Um, but it's just, unfortunately,

there's not a lot of, um, options for

778

:

citizens to bring suits under those acts.

779

:

And also, they They define the poisoning

in a way where it's usually direct,

780

:

and if it's an incidental poisoning,

there's like a lot more red tape to prove

781

:

it, but as you mentioned, there's all

these rules about, you know, rehabbers

782

:

mentioned how they can't even release

the wildlife that they've treated with

783

:

antibiotics till a certain amount of

time goes by, so that the antibiotics

784

:

don't enter like the food web, you know,

you can't, under the MBTA, You can't own

785

:

like eagle feathers or bird feathers,

even if you just find them in nature

786

:

because of like concerns of conservation.

787

:

So I just find it, you know, kind

of a contradiction that that those

788

:

are so heavily regulated, but then

these poisons are just being put out.

789

:

Just without almost pretty much

indiscriminately by the pest control

790

:

companies and, you know, even though

they're supposed to, were supposed

791

:

to be used as a last ditch, um,

effort to control rodents when other

792

:

things failed, or like, they're just

being put down as preventatives.

793

:

They're being put down whether or not

there are rodents present and they just

794

:

leave them down, um, indefinitely, which

is against the EPA's own recommendations

795

:

for how they should be applied.

796

:

DrG: I think that, you know, like, like

with most things related to animals,

797

:

the environment, everything, it's about

education, and I don't think that the

798

:

public is truly, you know, aware of the

damage that these things are causing,

799

:

you know, they see the rat problem, so

they're, of course, going to take to

800

:

the turn to the government and turn to

officials and say, you got to take care

801

:

of these, of these rats, these rodents,

and, um, They're, you know, this is the

802

:

answer that they're giving and they're

going to be okay with it, but I think

803

:

that, you know, through you guys, so

these advocacy efforts, if we can get the

804

:

public in general to understand the damage

that it's happening and not only how it's

805

:

affecting wildlife, but how it can affect

themselves, their family, their animals,

806

:

then perhaps there's going to be a bigger

outcry for these, for these rodenticides

807

:

to be taken off the, be taken off use.

808

:

Laura Kiesel: I, yeah, I agree.

809

:

And I, I started a new nonprofit just

like a couple of months ago called like,

810

:

it's a mouthful, Save Massachusetts

Wildlife Education Fund, and I'm just

811

:

wanting to, that whole nonprofit is

existing for me to try to come up with

812

:

like video tutorials and other like

education campaigns to really like.

813

:

Get them marketed out to the

mainstream because I feel like so

814

:

much of it is people just still

don't understand some of the basics.

815

:

Like what those black boxes are, you

know a surprising amount of people

816

:

still sometimes don't get what secondary

poisoning is They're like, how did

817

:

the wildlife get into the boxes?

818

:

And you know, sometimes you have to you

know Explain to them how like no, it's

819

:

the rodents themselves that are poisoning

that that are the poison product now

820

:

DrG: Yeah, they're, they're used quite

frequently and people don't, it's like

821

:

people don't realize what they do.

822

:

Right.

823

:

Like it's like a magic act, they

think that the mouse is going

824

:

to go in it and just disappear.

825

:

Yeah.

826

:

I understand that they're going in

there, they're getting poison and

827

:

then they're walking out of it.

828

:

They, you know, some people think that

they just get trapped in there, that

829

:

they eat it and they're trapped and they

die in there and that's not even it.

830

:

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, I've spoken to a lot

of people who are confused, and again,

831

:

some of the pest companies seem to

encourage that kind of ignorance, like,

832

:

like I mentioned my very first, you know,

conversation, he tried to kind of, he

833

:

called them traps, and I said, but the

animal, like, they leave, they leave.

834

:

Right.

835

:

Um, something I also wanted to

mention because I think that this is

836

:

a countrywide problem, but I do think

Massachusetts, when I speak to rehabbers,

837

:

to researchers on this issue, and I

tell them I'm in Massachusetts, they do

838

:

say things usually like Massachusetts

has an especially bad problem with the

839

:

poisoning, um, You probably have read

the Tufts Wildlife Clinic studies.

840

:

You already referred to the one about

the red tailed hawks, and when they

841

:

looked at other birds of prey, it was 96

percent, but recently I spoke to Project

842

:

Snowstorm, and they look at snowy owls,

and they, they've been, they released a

843

:

blog post a couple of weeks ago, um, or

at this point, it might be almost a month

844

:

ago, Uh, where they noted like 10 years

ago, when they, because they necropsy

845

:

dead snowy owls, they find they didn't

have find hardly any anticoagulant like

846

:

cases in the necropsies, but in just

like the past decade, it's become like

847

:

a ubiquitous problem with the samples.

848

:

And when I interviewed, um, one of

their representatives, he said that

849

:

Massachusetts overall had the highest

poisoning rates for snowy owls, both,

850

:

I think, in the ratio of snowy owls

and in the poisoning numbers, the

851

:

toxicity levels themselves found

in the liver of these AR poisons.

852

:

Um, and snowy owls, they're not

like a They're not listed in

853

:

Massachusetts, um, as an endangered

species or a threatened species.

854

:

I don't know why, maybe because

they're a migratory species here,

855

:

but they're, they're in trouble.

856

:

Like they're red listed under the

IUCN, um, red list as threatened.

857

:

And I know for the U S fish and

wildlife service does have them a

858

:

species of conservation concern.

859

:

They're under serious threats

with climate change because

860

:

they're from Arctic ecosystems.

861

:

So when they migrate to like the

continental North, you know, us.

862

:

usually like the Northeast

or Midwest region.

863

:

And if they're getting poisoned by

these rat poisons, you know, that

864

:

could be a tipping point for them.

865

:

DrG: What can the public do to be

better advocates in this field?

866

:

Laura Kiesel: Sure.

867

:

Well, in addition to, you know, talking

to your landlords, if you feel like

868

:

you can do that safely, because I know

sometimes they can be retaliatory,

869

:

but, you know, advocating if you do

have it at your place of residence

870

:

to see if you can get them removed.

871

:

Or again, if you're a business owner,

not using them or talking to businesses

872

:

about not using these poisons and

trying to use other alternatives.

873

:

Here in Massachusetts

specific to our petition.

874

:

We're still waiting for a response before

I think we decide what our next steps are.

875

:

And you know, there probably will

be a call, um, some kind of call to

876

:

action depending on what the next steps

are, if they respond in the negative.

877

:

But we do have the Arlington and the city

of Newton has home rule petitions pending

878

:

in the state legislature right now to

ban these poisons on private property.

879

:

So even though those homerule petitions

are specific to those communities if,

880

:

if by some chance they passed, it would

establish a firm legal precedent for

881

:

the prohibition of these chemicals.

882

:

And a lot of people don't realize

because these home rule petitions

883

:

are for Arlington and Newton,

they think, oh, I don't have to

884

:

call or talk to my state rep.

885

:

But I just, You know, I've been telling

people in Massachusetts, if you, you

886

:

know, please call and write your Senator

and your state rep and tell them, um,

887

:

that you want to see the, the home rule

petitions for Arlington and Newton past

888

:

the state, um, the state legislature and

make it into law for our communities,

889

:

because that will make it a lot easier

for other communities to do this, but also

890

:

if those passed, it would lend a

lot of leverage and momentum to the

891

:

legal petition we have with Harvard

because those would resonate with

892

:

like, um, the politicians on the

state level, and they would see that

893

:

there's a lot of public demand for

further regulation of these poisons.

894

:

I mean, if you're not in Massachusetts,

you could look at what we're doing here

895

:

and what states like California have done.

896

:

And you can explore legal avenues,

find a coalition of people to

897

:

work with here in Massachusetts.

898

:

We had to go community by

community because our state

899

:

legislature is a bit gridlocked.

900

:

So the reason we did a lot of like, after

I started save Arlington wildlife, a

901

:

lot of other communities started their

own respective save wildlife groups.

902

:

And right now they're about, I think

between a dozen and 20 across the

903

:

Commonwealth, um, and each one is

trying to do similar things that we did

904

:

here in Arlington, that is past public

lands bans, get a home rule petition

905

:

submitted to the state because the

more of that will increase pressure.

906

:

So maybe in,

907

:

if someone's in a state similar to us,

you could look at local level things

908

:

like that, getting a public lands

ban, um, getting, um, a home rule

909

:

petition, or if it's called something

else in your state, but similar to that

910

:

passed, um, looking at legal avenues,

um, working on things like that.

911

:

I do have on the Save

Arlington wildlife website.

912

:

I do have like an activist tool kit that

I authored that kind of just has like

913

:

a bullet by bullet instruction of what

we did here in Arlington when we were

914

:

getting started to eventually culminate

in the achievements we did that other

915

:

people are glad to borrow from and.

916

:

I think that's a good springboard

even even if you're not going

917

:

to try to pass municipal laws.

918

:

It just also has other ideas for

raising awareness and getting businesses

919

:

or residential properties to stop

using the poisons and there's also an

920

:

alternatives to road and decide page.

921

:

So I have a lot of resources on the

save Arlington wildlife dot org page.

922

:

DrG: Excellent.

923

:

Yeah, because that was going to be my

next question is, you know, we, we can't

924

:

just say, well, we have a problem with

this solution, but we're not going to

925

:

help with providing another solution.

926

:

So I wanted to know what were the,

what were the other recommendations as

927

:

far as solving the the rodent problem.

928

:

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, so I do have

an alternatives to rodenticide.

929

:

Raptors are the solution has a lot of

a lot of one pagers and good graphic,

930

:

you know, kind of infographic or

illustrations that I think is more

931

:

palatable sometimes for people to look at.

932

:

I mean, at the end of the day, the

best thing and it's hard, right?

933

:

Because human behavior is hard to change.

934

:

I think the number one way is to really

reduce rodent populations is better

935

:

waste management and sanitation, uh,

coupled with better exclusion, you

936

:

know, like, so making sure homes are

less porous so they can't get inside

937

:

the home because I think that's when

people really get upset is when they're

938

:

finding their way inside people's

homes, um, Those are the two big ones.

939

:

And I know, again, that's kind of

difficult for people because people

940

:

don't necessarily want to take down

their bird feeders, but bird feeders

941

:

can be a big attractant to rats, right?

942

:

Um, and if you do want to keep your

bird feeders, there are a number of

943

:

things you then really want to do

and be vigilant about, because you

944

:

will get rats, at least in my area,

if you have a bird feeder eventually.

945

:

And even if you don't use poison,

because I get these queries all the

946

:

time, where someone will say, like,

my neighbor uses Uh, bird feeders.

947

:

They don't use the poison.

948

:

I've tried to talk to them about it, but

they have rats and the rats are coming

949

:

in my yard, but they will say, but

there's two or three other neighbors,

950

:

now they've begun to use poison.

951

:

So even if the person with the bird feeder

doesn't use the poison, I try to explain

952

:

to them that probably if you get rats,

Your neighbors will start using poison.

953

:

So taking down bird feeders or

doing, like I said, a number of

954

:

mitigation options with that.

955

:

Um, you know, not even small, low hanging

fruit things like not taking your trash

956

:

to outdoor barrels or dumpsters until

basically it's almost time for pickup

957

:

would be a big thing.

958

:

When I lived in Alaska, it was actually

illegal to take your trash out until the

959

:

morning of pick up because of there was

a grizzly, you know, the grizzly bears

960

:

would come and you also couldn't have

a bird feeders either because it would

961

:

draw grizzly bears to the property and

could result in someone getting injured.

962

:

So, um, I almost wonder at one point

if we're going to have to start

963

:

thinking about this more at a mandated

way, but at the very least, I try to

964

:

educate people about those options.

965

:

And, you know, hiring somebody to do

exclusion or looking into do it yourself

966

:

place, finding like the holes in your

drywall and stuffing it with steel wool.

967

:

And then just other things like, um,

there's something called dry ice.

968

:

I don't know if you've heard of that,

like you can put those in outdoor

969

:

burrows and like as it like dissipates,

it's like carbon dioxide poisoning,

970

:

so it kind of puts them to sleep.

971

:

Um, so I, I, like lethal measures to

me are usually a last like You know

972

:

on the last option but I always tell

people that's probably one of the least

973

:

inhumane ways to get rid of them if

like you've tried other options and

974

:

and even old fashioned snap traps.

975

:

Um, though you do have to be really

like clever about what you bait them

976

:

with and where you put them and and

careful to have them either in a

977

:

bait box or in places where another

animal can't get caught in them.

978

:

DrG: Well, thank you so much for being

with us and for sharing your knowledge.

979

:

And thank you for everything

that you're doing.

980

:

Hopefully these petitions will,

will get, you know, some response.

981

:

And if not, I'm sure that you're

going to continue to battle

982

:

until, until something happens.

983

:

Laura Kiesel: We will.

984

:

Thank you very much.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

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Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.