Episode 64

full
Published on:

11th Jun 2024

Stop Poisoning Our Birds! Massachusetts Advocates Fighting Against Anticoagulant Rodenticides part 2

This is part two of a two-part series on the petition created by the Harvard Law School's Animal Law Clinic on behalf of wildlife animal advocates seeking to eliminate anticoagulant rodenticides in Massachusetts. Not only are these poisons a cruel way to kill rodents, the victims of these devices extend to wildlife and even species that are protected.

Our guests will discuss how they have come together in this fight, the importance of education of the public on this issue, and what we can do together to promote species conservation and welfare. They will also share their personal experiences as they are first hand witnesses of the injuries suffered by eagles, hawks, owls, and other wildlife.

Part I guests are:

Lla Anderson, Law student at the Harvard Law School

Laura Kiesel, founder of Save Arlington Wildlife


Part II guests are:

Marci Cemenska founder of Save Lexington Wildlife

James Joyce II, founder of Friends of Horn Pond


Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcript
DrG:

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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This is part two of our episode, Stop

Poisoning Our Birds, which is about

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Massachusetts advocates that are fighting

against anticoagulant rodenticides.

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So if you have not listened to

part one yet, I would recommend

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you pause, listen to part one, and

then continue on to this episode.

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On this episode, part two, we're going

to hear from Marci Cemenska from Save

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Lexington Wildlife and from James

Joyce II from Friends of Horn Pond.

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Our next guest is Marci Cemenska.

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Marci is the founder of the

Save Lexington Wildlife.

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Thank you, Marci, for being here,

and welcome to the Junction.

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So can you start by letting

our listeners know about your

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background and then what led

you to where you are at today.

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Marci Cemenska: Well, that's

an interesting question.

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I'm not exactly sure how I got

here, but I find myself here.

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So, um, yeah, I've always liked animals.

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So I grew up in Illinois.

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Um, I always liked animals.

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Uh, then I lived in

Colorado for a long time.

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Then I moved to Massachusetts,

but I really wasn't involved in a

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anything politically or, you know,

any, you know, Action like this.

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But then I started getting involved

with Indivisible in:

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started a group in Lexington.

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And so that was probably sort of

the start of my activists, you

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know, being a unpaid protesters.

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My husband says, um, and then a few

years ago, I got involved with the

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North Atlantic right whale issue.

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Uh, uh, so they're one of the most

endangered species on the planet.

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And, um, a friend of mine was leading

up some campaigns and supporting

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federal legislation to get ropeless

gear, get funding for ropeless gear.

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So I got greatly involved

with that and helped her out

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through my indivisible network.

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And so, um, we had, I think, all of

the congressional delegations signed

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on to that by the end of the campaign.

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And so, um, and then in 2021,

I think I heard about the owls

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that were dying of rodenticide.

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And I learned about that issue, and I

guess I just thought it was unacceptable.

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That, you know, that we're killing all

these wild animals, and that there's all

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these readily available alternatives.

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And so, um, in 2022, I got more involved,

and then I helped, um, Laura and Gary

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Menon at a table in Arlington, and then

in:

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a, at a presentation in Lexington, and

then late last year, and, you know, I

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just kept kind of getting more and more,

more involved, and then late last year

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in November, um, I did a couple things.

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One, I started Save Lexington Wildlife.

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And I also decided that we should bring

something to town meeting in Lexington.

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And so Save Lexington Wildlife was sort

of a vehicle to raise awareness and,

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and get that article to town meeting.

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DrG: I think it's important to

educate people because I think that

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a lot of the public do not, is not

aware of the dangers of rodenticides.

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Not only to the wildlife, but also to

even their families and their pets.

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But also just the, uh, The death

of these animals is something

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that is pretty torturous, right?

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It's pretty excruciating.

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How would you say that, that the way

that these wildlife animals are poisoned,

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how does it affect you directly?

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Marci Cemenska: Well, these

perfectly healthy animals are just

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bleeding to death, and there's just

something wrong with that, right?

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I mean, the, the raptors tend to

just bleed out of their feathers.

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You know, where they attach to their

body, um, with mammals, I think

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it's more internal, but I think

it's extremely painful and, um, it's

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just, it's just senseless, um, you

know, that we have this going on.

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And yeah, so it's a, it's an

excruciating death because they're

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essentially hemorrhaging inside.

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DrG: I know that you've taken part in this

petition through the Harvard Animal Law

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Clinic, uh, but what other things have

you done as far as to be able to engage

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the community in an advocacy effort?

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Marci Cemenska: Uh, so, you know, I

held the public forum with Laura and

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Gary in 2023, and then since Creating

Safe Lexington Wildlife, um, we,

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the first thing that we kind of did

was I ordered the 100 yard signs.

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And then, you know, people in, say,

Lexington Wildlife helped me get

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those distributed, so if you drive

around Lexington, you know, there's

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a hundred yard signs that say, you

know, don't poison our food, and

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it's got a picture of the owl on it.

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Um, and then we held a, another

public forum in February.

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We had Laura and Gary come back

to educate people on the issue.

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And then on March 2nd, we hosted a big

event in Lexington Center, and we had

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Jane Newhouse and Eyes on Owls come.

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And then we also had several organizations

that were tabling, like the SGAR

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Brigade, and then Gary had a table.

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Um, and so that was a big

event to get the word out.

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And then, really, the, the town meeting

was a huge way to get the word out,

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because your, um, You know, it's,

it's on the town meeting warrant.

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People are seeing it.

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There's all these presentations you

have to make, whether it's to the select

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board or the conservation committee or

the recreation committee or, um, or,

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you know, local groups that asked us to

come, like Lex Climate Action Network to

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find out about the issue, because some

of these local groups will, um, will lend

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support to these, um, Uh, to these various

articles, they're environmental related.

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So that was just a really great way to

reach a whole lot of people on the issue.

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Actually, two years ago, I

actually created bookmarks.

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So I went to a conference, an

individual conference in the summer.

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I created bookmarks that had

information on it and the bill numbers.

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Um, so, so that might've been the

first thing that I created, but

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the last year with town meeting,

it was just a, a really great forum

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to reach a whole lot of people.

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DrG: What kind of feedback are you getting

from like the public and the lawmakers?

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Does it look like somebody is listening?

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Marci Cemenska: Well, the public

is very supportive of this issue.

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I always say that, um, people don't

know about it, but as soon as they

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hear about it, they're supportive.

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I think most people just don't like

the idea of perfectly healthy animals

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bleeding to death when there's

readily available alternatives.

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I think most people see

the injustice in that.

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DrG: How was it working

with the Animal Law Clinic?

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Marci Cemenska: Oh, it's been wonderful.

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Absolutely wonderful.

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So I knew of the clinics at

Harvard Law School before.

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And so that's why I contacted them.

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Um, but it just, you know, just the

whole crew at Harvard Law has, was just

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wonderful throughout the whole process.

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DrG: So what what do you hope that

will come out from these petitions?

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Do you think that something will happen?

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Or do you think this is just like the

first step to what's next to come?

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Marci Cemenska: Of course, we

all hope that they'll disagree

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to the petition, right?

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That there will be enough evidence

for them to suspend the registration.

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I honestly don't have enough

knowledge to say what will happen.

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But, um, I also try to take these

things one step at a time, so if, if

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they deny it, you know, I, I don't

know enough whether they can deny it

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in, um, the whole thing or whether

they might accept some of it, but

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not others, I, I really don't know.

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But I think that, uh, the petitioners

are all committed, so we'll see what

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happens and then take, do whatever

steps we need next if, you know, if

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that's what, if that's what happens.

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DrG: So if somebody that's listening

is interested in being an advocate,

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what would you tell them is going

to be what they should be doing?

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Marci Cemenska: I think find out about the

issue, try to educate yourself, you know,

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either, uh, from other activists or from

materials that are up on, you know, the

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internet, there's all kinds of materials.

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Um, I'm going to say putting those

yard signs out was just a fantastic

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way of getting the word out.

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Because when you're driving around,

Lexington's not that big of a town,

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but when you're driving around and

there's a hundred yard signs out there,

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it just, it catches people's interest.

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And then we, I also have these

t shirts, uh, that have that

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same, you know, owl emblem.

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And those T shirts attract attention,

and people start asking about it.

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So I think if you can put these

things out there and have people

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start saying, What is that?

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You know, and you tell them,

You start getting, you start

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seeing a lot of support.

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For the issue.

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DrG: How can, how can individuals find

information about your organization?

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Marci Cemenska: So we have a

website, safelexingtonwildlife.

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org.

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And then we also have

a, um, a Facebook page.

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So either one of those,

they can find out about us.

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DrG: So we're, we're thinking

about, you know, the department of

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agricultural resources, putting these

rodenticides out, but there's also

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businesses that will do it privately.

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So what have you done in that regards and

how, what, what have been the results?

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Marci Cemenska: Well, I think that's

been limited so far, but it's something

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that I kind of would like to do,

you know, one of the next steps.

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We did a lot of work with Whole

Foods, the Whole Foods in Arlington,

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Massachusetts, I should say.

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But we also contacted the home

office that was out west of here.

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I don't know that that had a positive

effect other than, I don't know.

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You know, a lot of

activists came together.

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And so that's always, you know, energy

generating to go and be there at

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the store, but Whole Foods was not

receptive at all to hearing about it.

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And then there was a campaign that

Laura organized to essentially everybody

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call the home office and leave messages

and fill their box, which did happen.

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But I don't.

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There wasn't really any movement as far

as I can tell on that issue, um, which I

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think Whole Foods is a perfect candidate

to target in the sense that it's part

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of their mission to be a good, you know,

neighbor and citizen, but at least in this

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aspect they're not, but I still think that

that's a good organization to target if we

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can gather enough resources in the future.

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Um, the other, um, business that

was Petition was the New England

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Aquarium and so they had bait boxes

outside and, um, you know, due to

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various advocacies and conversations

and then Laura created a petition.

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They took away the bait

boxes from their location.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that was another.

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I don't know what you call it, crazy case.

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Here you have the New England Aquarium,

whose thing is conservation, saving right

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whales, saving, you know, things in the

ocean, and they've got a bait box outside

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the seal enclosure in the back, you know?

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Um, in fact, I went to a event once

on right whales and the president

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of the aquarium was there and

I basically took her over and

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pointed to the bait box, you know?

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Um, yeah, I think it's an issue.

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A lot of people just don't know about it.

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You know, they just don't know, and so

until it comes to their attention, I

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think, um, you know, it just happens.

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I've come to believe that this whole

rodenticide issue is like an afterthought.

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You know, people put together, whether

it's a plan or an IPM or they don't

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really think about it at all, but it's

like an afterthought, you know, they'll

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just rubber stamp something versus

really thinking about the dangers of

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these chemicals and what they might do.

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And so the more you can talk to people

and raise awareness, I think the better.

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DrG: Yeah, I think that, you know,

they've been presented with a problem,

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which is the rodent population.

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And then that was kind

of the easy fix, right?

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It's like, we're just going to.

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Plant poison and it just takes care of

itself and not really thinking about

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the repercussions to the environment.

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So I think that now, you know,

it's unfortunate that so many

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animals have had to suffer and die.

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But hopefully, you know, we can

use this information to show

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them that this needs to stop.

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And that they are better, more humane,

not just, not just more humane for the

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wildlife and for companion animals,

but even for the rodents, even if you

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don't like rodents, you should not want

them to suffer a horrible death, right?

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Marci Cemenska: Their death

from these second generation

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anticoagulants is horrible.

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You know, they're hemorrhaging and, you

know, maybe living for a couple of days

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in the state, so it's really horrible.

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Um, I mean, so I've attended

the wildlife rehabilitators of

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Association of Massachusetts, RAM.

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And even on there, you know,

you get people that rehabbers

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basically say, actually the most

humane way is like snap traps.

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You know, it's quick, right,

versus any kind of poison.

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But I've also come to believe that part

of the problem with these rodenticides

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is that people are so squeamish.

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They, it's almost like they just can't

bear to see a mouse dead in a trap.

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Unfortunately, you know,

you can use rodenticides.

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And then it's going to go

up the food chain, right?

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And so side out of mind, out of

sight, out of mind, because I think

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they, they don't want to have to

deal with seeing that, that mouse or,

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you know, that rat, you know, dead.

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But in the meantime, you know,

things are dying all around us.

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Um, so I, I, I sometimes wonder

if that's another part of

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the, of an education campaign.

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You know, not just alternatives,

but trying to decide what, what

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people find less scary or, you

know, how to get over that.

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DrG: Yeah, and in talking to

Laura, you know, we discuss about

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how us humans create the problem.

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Like sometimes, you know, the way that

we dispose of our trash, the way that

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we, you know, deal with things that,

you know, we leave, uh, people that

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have colonies of cats, for instance,

outside and leave the food outside all

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the time and don't clean out at all.

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After them bird feeders like sometimes

we are causing the problem and we

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are inviting these these pasts these

so called pasts into our environment

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And then we're scrambling to find a

solution where the solution is for us

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to change The our actions just change

the way that we're doing things.

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Marci Cemenska: Right.

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And so, and you know, Laura probably

mentioned this, but in:

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530, 000 pounds of this stuff was put

down in the state of Massachusetts.

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That's a lot of poison to be putting

whether an animal consumes it, or it

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ends up in the dirt or a waterway.

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It's just a lot of poison.

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Right.

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And, um, that is not.

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That quantity is not the last line

of defense, do you know what I mean?

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If it was the last line, you wouldn't

be having this, this quantity.

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And so that's really the problem.

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So I guess it's just easy.

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It's easy for people and pest

control operators to put it down

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versus doing a slightly harder work.

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Although, you know, unless you do

the exclusion, do the other things,

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you're still going to have mice.

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You're going to have mice in, in

your house or, or whatever, right?

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Until you do these other prevention steps.

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DrG: Yeah, as long as the resources,

you know, the area has the

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resources to feed and maintain the

mice, they're going to be there.

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So we need to be there.

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Marci Cemenska: Yeah, you know, and I went

to a webinar once and it was interesting.

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They made the case in some way, you know,

you may not ever get down to zero, but

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there's maybe some acceptable level.

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You know, there's two mice.

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If I get a mouse in my house

twice a year, one mouse, I can

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probably live with that, right?

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With a trap or something, you know?

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If I have a thousand in my house,

you know, that's a different story.

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That would be a huge problem, right?

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And so I'm not sure if some people also

walk around thinking that there should,

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there shouldn't be a rat on earth, right?

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There should be no rats.

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Versus if there's one rat and he's out

there, it's not bothering me, you know?

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DrG: Well, and we need,

and they need to be there.

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They need to exist because they are

feeding all of these other animals, right?

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Because we, we say we love the birds

and we want to save the birds from

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these rodenticides, but we can't

eliminate all the rats and the mice

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because that's what they're feeding off.

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I know that I, I often, as I'm driving

home, I will see a big bird that will

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come just flying all the way down and

then they just come off the field with

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something on their, on their grasp.

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So, they, they're doing their job.

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So, if we, you know, if we

poison their food and we kill

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them, who's gonna do that job?

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We're gonna be in, in worse

trouble than we're in right now.

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Marci Cemenska: Yeah, there's

all these other threats.

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I think that's another for me.

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Another part of the equation is, you

know, there's the rodenticide threat.

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There's all the building threat.

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There's the climate change.

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There's all these threats on animals.

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And here's 1 that we can actually, we can

actually deal with and use something else.

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And so, I mean, climate change, it's,

it's such a much bigger problem.

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It's harder to deal with, but I can

use a different poison that doesn't

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go up the food chain, or I can use

snap traps, or I can use repellents,

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or, you know, I can maybe figure

out, you know, how to get this hawk

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to come down to my yard more often.

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You know, I can put an owl, an owl,

a box in my yard, you know, there's

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all these things that we can do.

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Um, so it's just, it's just.

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It's just crazy that we're

using this, you know, the second

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generation anti coagulant so much.

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I mean, nobody wants rats in their, in

their house or their school or right.

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Nobody wants that.

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So then the trick is to, to find a way to

eliminate it or, you know, to manage it.

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DrG: Yeah, different problems are

going to have different solutions

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to, like, for instance, in my house,

like, I would, I would hope I don't

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have any mice with my cats, right?

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I would hope that they would do

their job and, and eliminate them.

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But you think about, like, a school or a

food place or somewhere that cannot have

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animals inside, then they're going to have

to think about a different, um, source.

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And that's where, in these collaborative

efforts, everybody coming together

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and saying, you know, like, this

works for this situation, this works

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for this situation, so everybody can.

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Can work towards a solution.

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Marci Cemenska: I mean, I think

it's fair to say you probably

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wouldn't want to go to a restaurant

where there's rats in the kitchen.

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Right?

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I think we can all agree on that.

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Right?

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DrG: Yes.

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Marci Cemenska: Um, but I think there's

all these possibilities to use before

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you get to these anticoagulants.

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You know,

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DrG: I don't want rats around my food.

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I also don't want poison around my food.

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Marci Cemenska: Yeah, you don't

want poison around your food.

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Yeah.

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I'm going to go back to a question

you asked me in the very beginning,

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and I don't know if this is helpful,

but you said, what's my background?

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The thing is, I don't really have any

background in biology or that, not

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that much in activism or anything,

you know, but I think if you care

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about an issue, you can get involved

and you can make a difference.

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And that's why I kind of like, froze

when you asked me that question, right?

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But I just think if you care about an

issue, you just start somewhere, either

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with a friend or doing some research or

talking to your town, and you just, you

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know, you just keep building on that.

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So, you know, now I find myself, right,

leading up this organization in Lexington

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and, And, uh, I mean, the, our article

passed 157 to one, so resounding success

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in Lexington, you know, on, you know,

resounding support for this article.

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So what, what, what was

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DrG: the article?

341

:

Marci Cemenska: Um, the article we had

was, uh, basically to, uh, it was a

342

:

resolution to ask the town to develop

integrated pest management policies that

343

:

prohibit the use of escars on town on

land and also to provide public education

344

:

about the hazards of these rodenticides.

345

:

And so, um, so that was our first step.

346

:

We hope, you know, um,

we hope to come back.?

347

:

At town meeting.

348

:

So, um, I don't know, I'm not

from the East Coast, so this idea

349

:

of town meeting was new to me.

350

:

But here towns do town meeting

and Lexington has what they call

351

:

representative town meeting.

352

:

So every precinct elects

nine town meeting members.

353

:

Uh, so they're kind of the

legislative body of the town.

354

:

Um, and so that, you know,

that was, you know, where you

355

:

take these kinds of things.

356

:

Yeah, so if you look at, um, I don't know

if you're interested, but if you look at

357

:

Lexington Town Meeting 2024 and you go

to Article 40, you can see the kind of

358

:

materials I had to, I had to put up there,

the presentation, the slide deck, uh,

359

:

recommendations or support from the select

board and, and other entities in the town.

360

:

And then actually the Harvard effort that

provided us with, you know, just a, A huge

361

:

amount of information and, um, I mean,

I say every, every activist in this, you

362

:

know, rodenticide movement should read

that petition and that request because we

363

:

can all speculate how it works or what the

law is or what the rules are, you know,

364

:

but unless someone interprets it from a

legal standpoint, it may not be accurate.

365

:

And so I found that like vastly

important for my knowledge on this

366

:

issue to be able to advocate for it.

367

:

DrG: And we're going to be sharing

the petition again, not just to

368

:

bring awareness to the problem there

in Massachusetts, but I'm sure that

369

:

this is happening in other places.

370

:

So, you know, they may not

know that they have a problem.

371

:

Marci Cemenska: I think each state that

does something, we'll do it a little

372

:

different, but then each state will add

to the body of knowledge for other states.

373

:

That wanna take action.

374

:

And so I think, I think the value

in, in creating this petition and

375

:

everything, I mean, you know, I, of

course I want it to pass, but there's

376

:

already been a huge benefit to doing

it as far as education and 'cause,

377

:

you know, letting the state know that.

378

:

We are taking action in this way.

379

:

So we're pursuing not just a legislative

approach, but also a legal approach.

380

:

So to me, all that is a huge value.

381

:

I mean, I am so thankful that

Harvard Law took this case.

382

:

You know, I'm so thankful.

383

:

DrG: Yeah.

384

:

And it looks like they put a

lot of heart and effort into it.

385

:

Again, writing the petition and

getting all the information and getting

386

:

everybody together and giving each of

each of the advocates their own voice.

387

:

And then, together voice, right?

388

:

Marci Cemenska: Yeah.

389

:

I mean, you know, they, I have no idea

how many hours, you know, they spent

390

:

on this because it was two semesters

of students and then all the staff.

391

:

And this, it's a huge effort to

put something like this together.

392

:

But I'm so thankful that they did.

393

:

DrG: I'm

394

:

Marci Cemenska: glad that they're there

and I'm glad that there are clinics like

395

:

this that are going to help with advocacy

efforts, especially, you know, in times

396

:

where, you know, It's a big issue, but

there's not a lot of money and a lot of

397

:

finances backing it up that there are

these pro bono clinics that, um, that

398

:

are there to help to help these cases.

399

:

Yeah, I mean, because I mean, at least

in Massachusetts, it's just a collection.

400

:

It's just a grassroots collection

of people and organizations, right?

401

:

There's no overriding state body

that's doing this, you know,

402

:

it's not like funds somewhere.

403

:

Um, it's just individual

groups and people.

404

:

And so the fact that, you know,

that the Harvard Law Animal Policy

405

:

Clinic exists and took this case.

406

:

I mean, you know, I just can't express

how thankful I am that they did that.

407

:

DrG: Well, thank you for being here.

408

:

Thank you for joining us and for

sharing your information and thank

409

:

you for everything that you're doing.

410

:

Marci Cemenska: Thank you.

411

:

DrG: Our final guest is James Joyce

II, founder of Friends of Horn Pond.

412

:

Thank you for being here

and welcome to The Junction.

413

:

James Joyce II: Thank you, Michelle.

414

:

Great to be here.

415

:

DrG: Excellent.

416

:

Can you first begin by letting

us know about your background

417

:

and kind of what brought you

to create Friends of Horn Pond?

418

:

James Joyce II: Yeah, sure.

419

:

So, uh, so my background is, my

background is actually in engineering.

420

:

I'm retired now.

421

:

I retired at the end of 2020.

422

:

And I was in the microelectronics

and semiconductor, uh, industry.

423

:

So it's a big difference for

between what I'm doing now and

424

:

what I was doing as a profession.

425

:

But I've always been an outdoorsman, uh,

my whole life, and, um, specifically,

426

:

I've been, uh, monitoring and

following, uh, birds of prey for

427

:

the better part of 40 or 50 years.

428

:

And that includes bald eagles and

peregrine falcons, which are, you

429

:

know, state listed in Massachusetts.

430

:

Um, so what got me to this point

was, um, Around:

431

:

wife and I had been photographing,

uh, bald eagles in, uh, along the

432

:

Charles River in Massachusetts.

433

:

But we also were noticing quite

a bit of an uptick in bait

434

:

stations that were around.

435

:

And, you know, at the time we

didn't really pay much attention to

436

:

it, although it was something new

and I didn't really realize that.

437

:

Um,

438

:

and then in 2021, uh, when I was, had

retired and I, now I made a, a real

439

:

study out of this bald eagle, nesting

bald eagles along the Mystic River

440

:

Watershed in, uh, in Massachusetts,

eastern Massachusetts, I, um, you

441

:

know, we had a, a bald eagle that,

uh, two bald eagles, MK and KZ, that,

442

:

uh, hatched two chicks, eaglets.

443

:

25 C and 26 C.

444

:

And of course, three weeks after

the fledge, 25 C came down with, um,

445

:

a significant case of rodenticide

poisoning and, and subsequently died.

446

:

And, and so, so that got us to the

point of now we're really paying

447

:

attention and looking into what

exactly is, is going on in the state,

448

:

as far as legislation is concerned,

what are the things that we could do?

449

:

So, uh, Patty Sears, Joyce, Jeannie

Bowen, and I founded the Friends of Horn

450

:

Pond in 2022 as a local conservation

group in Woburn, Massachusetts.

451

:

We decided to take action when in 2015,

we began seeing a significant increase

452

:

of rodent bait stations throughout

Eastern Massachusetts watershed

453

:

areas where we follow bald eagles.

454

:

And then in 2021, When two of our

bald eagles died of anticoagulant

455

:

rodenticide poisoning in the Charles

River Watershed and the Mystic

456

:

River Watershed, respectively.

457

:

So we're a 501c3 nonprofit organization

dedicated to conserve and preserve

458

:

the Horn Pond Conservation and

Recreation Area for current and

459

:

future generations through community

awareness and action, collaborative

460

:

partnerships, and citizen science efforts.

461

:

for the Advancement of

Environmental and Wildlife Habitats.

462

:

Our three key focus areas are poison

free rodent prevention, control and

463

:

monitoring, protection of the Horn

Pond public drinking watershed, and the

464

:

Monofilament Reel and Recycle Program.

465

:

So we have a, we had a monofilament

program that we have active

466

:

throughout the pond area.

467

:

Um, but we also have a very significant,

um, push on rodenticide legislation

468

:

which led us to the fact that this

legislation in Massachusetts doesn't

469

:

seem to go very well and it seems

to stall out and, and therefore

470

:

it drove us down this path of.

471

:

Uh, working with Harvard Law, as you

know, um, on this Harvard Law petition.

472

:

So, that in a nutshell got us to where,

um, got us to where we are, um, you know.

473

:

So, for the last few years,

this is what we've been doing.

474

:

And, and I will mention one thing.

475

:

There was a bald eagle, that

bald eagle nest that we had

476

:

been following in Waltham.

477

:

That was the bald eagle nest.

478

:

That M.

479

:

K., the Mystic Lake Bald Eagle,

that's where she hatched.

480

:

And that was our, that was our

introduction to that, to M.

481

:

K.

482

:

and, and, and the two adults.

483

:

And we also followed them very closely

and monitored them very closely.

484

:

And the adult female eagle, also died of

rodenticide poisoning about three months

485

:

before the mystic lake bald eagle died.

486

:

So, you know, now we, we really had

this, we really had this tie into what's

487

:

going on with, what's going on with

materials in the environment that are

488

:

taking out these bald eagles that we've

been following for quite some time.

489

:

So that's, that's how we started.

490

:

DrG: So this issue with MK, you actually

were involved with the, with the

491

:

attempt to rescue her, is that correct?

492

:

James Joyce II: That is correct.

493

:

You know, once you start down this, once

you start down this path, you start to

494

:

make a lot of different connections and

we certainly made some real connections

495

:

in with, um, the wildlife community, um,

and in with the rehab community as well.

496

:

So, you know, one of the things that,

one of the things that my wife and I did

497

:

early on was we really wanted to know

what kind of data is actually out there to

498

:

support what we were trying to accomplish.

499

:

And, and we found that, you

know, there's a lot of studies.

500

:

I mean, Dr.

501

:

Maureen Murray at Tufts Cummings

School of Veterinary Medicine,

502

:

she's did a significant amount

of studies over a 15 year period.

503

:

We read them all.

504

:

But what were the, what was the

rehab community actually seeing,

505

:

um, in the, you know, in the field?

506

:

Well, what got us to MK was that

now we were connected to the rehab

507

:

community and I had friends of mine

that, that called me up one Saturday

508

:

morning and asked, geez, can you

come over here and take a look at MK?

509

:

She's up in a tree with her

head slumped down, and she's not

510

:

behaving like she normally does.

511

:

So if you follow this eagle, you'd know

exactly what that, what that means.

512

:

I mean, that was not typical

behavior for, for her.

513

:

Although it was nesting season, and so she

could have been, she could have had eggs.

514

:

So that was a distinct possibility,

but it was, you know, what we said

515

:

was, we're not going to go up there.

516

:

We can't climb the tree and,

and, and get MK out of the tree.

517

:

So if she comes to the ground, then we

can, we can work with the rehab community,

518

:

the veterinary community, mass wildlife.

519

:

We can work with that and we can, we can

attempt to rescue, which we, which we did.

520

:

And on that Monday morning, you know,

she was on the ground and again, we

521

:

did the, uh, we did the rescue of MK.

522

:

And, of course, that didn't, um,

that didn't work out very well as

523

:

far as, uh, MK was concerned because

she passed about, um, I don't

524

:

know, 36 hours later, I believe.

525

:

DrG: So you don't do rehabilitation

yourself, right, but you're, you

526

:

work with transport, capture and

transport of injured birds to

527

:

different rehabilitation places?

528

:

James Joyce II: Yeah,

that's exactly right.

529

:

So we're, um, we're associates

of, um, we're associates of

530

:

Cape Ann wildlife in, uh, Essex.

531

:

So, uh, there's three rehabbers that

are federally permitted rehabbers that,

532

:

are associated with Cape Ann wildlife.

533

:

And, um, one of them, uh, Aaron

Hutchings up in Gloucester is the

534

:

raptor, um, is the raptor expert.

535

:

Um, so, so no, I don't, I

don't, I don't rehab anything.

536

:

I, I don't want to be a rehabber.

537

:

I'm fine being a rescuer and, and, and

a data, you know, a rescuer transporter,

538

:

but I do quite a bit of data analysis

and that's really where the power of, of

539

:

what we, what we started doing with, with

Cape Ann wildlife was that every case

540

:

that came into, you know, to their rehab

and it looked to be a rodenticide case

541

:

would actually investigate that case.

542

:

We'd go out in the field

where the bird was found.

543

:

And would actually compile all of

the bait stations, active ingredients

544

:

if we could get them, product types.

545

:

Any kind of label information we

would we had been doing that and we've

546

:

been doing that now for close to two

years Which got us to all the data

547

:

that is in the petitions that that

entire data set is um is all that work

548

:

DrG: Are you seeing most baits in public

or private land or is it a combination?

549

:

James Joyce II: Combination I think

the places where we see Most of the

550

:

um, the second generation rodenticides,

anticoagulants, I'd say are in public

551

:

spaces, not necessarily town owned, but

certainly around um, restaurants, any

552

:

dumpsters, um, you know, food, waste,

any of that, uh, apartment buildings, we

553

:

see quite a bit of it around, and um, as

far as residential is concerned, it's a

554

:

little tricky because you You know, you

really can't, you know, I mean, you don't

555

:

want to go on to somebody's private land,

private property and start poking around.

556

:

And, but you can do it from the

sidewalk, which was what I do.

557

:

And I've suggested this to many that,

um, you know, if you see in a residential

558

:

area, if you see a bait station, you

might, you know, Want to take a photo

559

:

of it from the sidewalk or the street.

560

:

You can log it into an application

that we've started here, uh, which

561

:

is the, uh, EWA SGARs brigade.

562

:

And, and Hey, if the residents of

the homeowner are there, you might

563

:

strike up a conversation with them,

which is what I do quite a bit.

564

:

And then it becomes a real educational

opportunity, which in the, in the

565

:

long run, though, Michelle, I think

that, you know, education outside

566

:

of petitions and legislation.

567

:

But education is really going

to, is really going to carry

568

:

the day on this, on this issue.

569

:

Uh, you know, I've, I've said many times

, and I, I didn't make up this line, but an

570

:

informed consumer is a powerful consumer.

571

:

And so you want to, you want to arm

the folks, whether they be residents

572

:

or business owners with what exactly

do you know what you, do you know

573

:

what you have and what it's doing?

574

:

And, and we do have

alternate solutions for you.

575

:

DrG: Yeah, no, I completely agree

with the education bit, because I

576

:

think that a lot of people make bad

decisions because they don't know what

577

:

the right thing to do is, and they

look for a solution, and unfortunately,

578

:

these are the simple solutions, right?

579

:

And if people understood that these,

these rodenticides are not just harmful to

580

:

the wildlife, but even to themselves, to

their family, to their, to their children,

581

:

to their pets, you know, it would be,

It would be impactful and also the fact

582

:

that these, these birds that are being

killed, they are pest control, right?

583

:

Like that's their, that's

nature's pest control.

584

:

So by killing the birds secondarily

after using the rodenticide, we're

585

:

eliminating this ability of Mother

Nature to eliminate the mice.

586

:

James Joyce II: Yeah, it's, it's an

interesting, it's, it's an interesting,

587

:

um, you know, dynamic that, and when I

do these, when I, when I talk to folks,

588

:

you know, I'll say, uh, a single raptor,

hawk, owl, coyote, fox, any of these

589

:

rodent eaters are gonna consume you

know, upwards of a couple of thousand

590

:

rats a year, and, you know, maybe six

thousand mice a year, and, you know,

591

:

I'll put up these, I'll put up these,

these photos in my presentations, and

592

:

I'll say, you know, I have one that's

got six, and I say, just these six

593

:

individual, um, you know, creatures,

animals, and, and birds, are, you know,

594

:

could account for 12, 000 rats and mice.

595

:

I mean, that's what we're taking

out, and they outbreed us.

596

:

They outbreed the raptors, and they

outbreed everything, because all these

597

:

species breed once a year, but the rats

breed 12 times a year, and, you know,

598

:

they're having 15 pups, and, you know,

you can do the math and figure it all

599

:

out, but it's, um, you know, it's quite

a bit of, uh, you know, it's, it's

600

:

quite a disconnect between what you're

trying to accomplish and what you are

601

:

accomplishing, and you're taking out

nature's, you know, the natural predators.

602

:

So, I don't know how to sum it up.

603

:

Any, uh, you know, any, any

easier than that, because

604

:

that's exactly what we're doing.

605

:

DrG: No, and it's, you know, it

sounds like common sense, but

606

:

again, like common sense comes

with having some level of education

607

:

or knowledge on what's happening.

608

:

And that's where we need to educate

people better so that we can, we can

609

:

explain this common sense to individuals.

610

:

James Joyce II: Yeah, that's correct.

611

:

I always say, you don't

know what you don't know.

612

:

And when you, when you talk with folks,

or you stand up in front of an audience

613

:

and you, you get into, you know, the

background on this issue, but then

614

:

what can we do to, lower the risk,

what's available to them, what can we

615

:

do as homeowners and business owners?

616

:

I mean, that's when it

really starts to set in.

617

:

And, um, the other thing is, You

know, nobody sees it firsthand.

618

:

So this is where, you know, the wildlife

rescuers that are out there, the people

619

:

who find things in their backyards

and they don't know what they've got.

620

:

And, you know, once they know

or they see something, then

621

:

it kind of, it really sets in.

622

:

But how many people see that actually?

623

:

You know, I mean, we see it all the

time, but most people don't see that.

624

:

They don't, they don't see

the, they don't see the real

625

:

ugly side of the whole problem.

626

:

What they usually see is they usually

see hawks and owls and eagles and

627

:

coyotes and foxes and they see them

in the wild and they look great and

628

:

you know, they, and they don't think

anything different than that, right?

629

:

And they don't connect the dots and

what's going on when they see them,

630

:

if they, if they happen to see them

and they're, they're sick or injured

631

:

or they're dead, then it's, um, it

can make a little bit more sense.

632

:

DrG: About how many calls do you get?

633

:

Like how frequently do you get

calls about injured wildlife?

634

:

James Joyce II: I'm not going to say

daily, but um, we're probably out rescuing

635

:

at least four to five times a week.

636

:

Now, they're not all rodenticide cases.

637

:

It's probably somewhere around a 50

50 split, which is not good because

638

:

that's a significant uptick into what

we were seeing a couple of years ago.

639

:

You know, up until a couple of years

ago, it was head trauma, you know,

640

:

vehicle strikes, window strikes,

you know, that sort of thing.

641

:

And it was probably 70%, maybe 75

percent of the cases with that.

642

:

Now it's now it's almost an even split.

643

:

It's almost 50, 50.

644

:

And we had one yesterday.

645

:

That's just absolutely horrific.

646

:

We had a fledgling red tail hawk down

in one of the city areas, about 15

647

:

miles from where we live, and we got

a call from, we got a call from Cape

648

:

and wildlife and can we get on there

and take a peek at this and, you

649

:

know, it was found in the road and.

650

:

And it was bleeding and it bled out.

651

:

And by the time we had rescued it

and got it up to, up to, you know,

652

:

to care, it had, um, it had passed.

653

:

So it was dead on arrival.

654

:

And it's, uh, it's just an

absolutely horrific, uh, bleed out

655

:

condition that, um, that we had.

656

:

I mean, again, this is where, if you, if

you saw the images, people saw the images,

657

:

they would just be, they'd be horrified.

658

:

DrG: I'm assuming that the majority

of them are going to be either dead

659

:

or barely alive by the time that

you guys are able to capture them.

660

:

Would that be an accurate assessment?

661

:

James Joyce II: That's a

fairly accurate assessment.

662

:

Um, I would say again, a

survival rate, maybe around 50%.

663

:

Um, And, and I'll say

this, timing is everything.

664

:

So for your, for your, your

listeners, what's really important,

665

:

it's, it's all about timing.

666

:

The quicker you can identify a problem

or a bird that's in, or an animal that's

667

:

in distress, the quicker you can make

that phone call, the quicker you can

668

:

get a photograph or a video of it.

669

:

And you get it over to the right people

in the, in the, in the rehab community,

670

:

, then we can take action on it quickly.

671

:

And it, and it really does come down to

a matter of, it can be a matter of hours.

672

:

And in yesterday's case, It was

literally a five hour window,

673

:

and that was, that was it.

674

:

Five hours wasn't enough and

sometimes it's even less than that.

675

:

But the quicker you can identify

that there's a problem and contact

676

:

somebody, and you can get help, the

quicker it can get into care, and

677

:

the better the chance of survival.

678

:

DrG: So about this app, what is this app

about, and what led you to create it?

679

:

James Joyce II: The application

it's from EarthWiseAware.

680

:

It's on the Anecdata platform.

681

:

It's, um, if you, to look this up, it's

the EWA, EarthWiseAware, SGARs Brigade,

682

:

and it's a, a platform that will allow

us to log in bait stations that we find

683

:

in the field, any animals, birds that

are either sick, injured, or dead in

684

:

the field, and also any trash or waste

concerns that we see in the field as well

685

:

What we do with the data is and right now

we've got about 120 members that are out

686

:

there doing this Um, it's in the greater

boston eastern massachusetts area But I

687

:

do know that we've got some folks that are

working outside of massachusetts on this

688

:

because it uses anywhere in the world.

689

:

And what we're doing is we actually

take the information and then we

690

:

do a two level data analysis on the

information to correlate where we find

691

:

bait stations in relative proximity to

where we found the dead or injured or

692

:

sick animals in proximity to where do

we have the waste management problems.

693

:

And you can use the data.

694

:

It's open source.

695

:

So you can use this.

696

:

It's open to the public.

697

:

Anyone can join.

698

:

Um, and you can use the data for any

local, uh, legislation, policymaking,

699

:

education, um, any of that.

700

:

Uh, it's, it's, it's

all available for use.

701

:

And I'm, Claire O'Neill is the, is the

president and founder of EarthWise Aware.

702

:

Uh, I'm the co founder and president

of the Friends of Horn Pond.

703

:

We worked collaboratively

and jointly on this project.

704

:

So, You know, we each have a

piece, we each have a piece of it.

705

:

We actually just took it to the, um,

to the recent annual conference for

706

:

participatory sciences, which it, um, it

got some real rave reviews, but really

707

:

the whole, the whole thing is, is that

it's a very, very easy to use application.

708

:

It's, uh, it's available on your mobile

device or Androids or, or, um, or iPhones.

709

:

Uh, it's a desktop application as well.

710

:

So if you, if you want to input

information from your desktop,

711

:

you most certainly can do that.

712

:

And like I said, all the data

Including all the maps and, and,

713

:

and everything that's in there

is all available for anyone.

714

:

DrG: I think this is extremely useful

because we need data to, not just to

715

:

understand the problem, but to evaluate

how the solutions are working, right?

716

:

That is correct.

717

:

It's the beginning and the end of it.

718

:

Just saying, you know, this

is what we're proposing.

719

:

Well is what we're proposing working.

720

:

So I think that this app is

really beneficial on both ends.

721

:

James Joyce II: Absolutely it is.

722

:

It's um, it can, I feel as though it

can help out, it can help everyone.

723

:

It's um, it's something that we can

use as, as rescuers and rehabilitators.

724

:

We can use that as, as people who are,

you know, working in the cities and towns.

725

:

Pest professionals could use it.

726

:

Um, our state government, so our,

our Massachusetts Department of

727

:

Agricultural Resources and the

Department of Energy and Environment,

728

:

I mean, they can use that information.

729

:

I think it's a win win for everyone.

730

:

I really do.

731

:

And, and, and again, I don't think

that there's, there is no one,

732

:

There's no smoking gun, there's no

one, you know, one thing that can

733

:

solve this, solve this problem.

734

:

In the end, no one wants rats.

735

:

That's how I always say it.

736

:

No, nobody wants rats, but you want

to be smart about how you either

737

:

eliminate them from your homes, your

businesses, and how you keep them out.

738

:

I mean, that's where I think

the power really begins.

739

:

So when, you know, when you start

researching this out, you know,

740

:

there's a lot of, there's a lot

of, um, there's a lot of myths that

741

:

are associated with, with the laws.

742

:

And until we sent down this path with

Harvard Law, and they did all of the

743

:

research on the, on the laws in, in

the state of Massachusetts, um, we

744

:

found out things that intuitively,

you would think that an outside

745

:

bait station would require a label.

746

:

It, it does not.

747

:

There is no law in the book

in Massachusetts that requires

748

:

that, and there's nothing

on the federal level either.

749

:

The law in Massachusetts requires that

if you're going to use bait inside, or if

750

:

you're going to have a bait station inside

of a building, That has to be labeled.

751

:

It has to be labeled with the

ingredients and, and that.

752

:

So, so that was an important

piece of information.

753

:

And so there's a misconception out there

about what is required to be labeled

754

:

and what's not required to be labeled.

755

:

Um, we did create a couple of documents

that are available for the public.

756

:

One of them is, I call it, it's called

the, um, Rodent Bait Station Overview.

757

:

We created it back several months ago

and rolled it out to Mass Audubon.

758

:

They've, they've, um, they're

now published it on their website

759

:

in their Rescue Raptors program.

760

:

It's out with a variety

of different groups.

761

:

And we also created another document that

is, it's called Safe Rodent Prevention.

762

:

It's a safe rodent IPM

options and resource document.

763

:

We created that too, which gives you

a menu driven, um, approach to how

764

:

you can implement safe prevention

and rodent control without having

765

:

to use anticoagulant rodenticides

and mostly any other rodenticides.

766

:

Um, and people can use that document

and they can see they can, you know,

767

:

it's a menu driven so they can.

768

:

They can, they can pick a, pick

a solution or pick something and

769

:

there could be a multiple, multiple

factors that they want to try.

770

:

Yeah.

771

:

Like I say, it's not one size fits

all, but, um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's,

772

:

it's, it's funny how the, how the laws

work and what people know, again what

773

:

people know and what they don't know.

774

:

Um, one thing in Massachusetts is that,

uh, we do have a, a law that's been on

775

:

the books since November 22 of 2000.

776

:

It's the Child and

Families Protection Act.

777

:

And in that, in that, in that law calls

for a, every school daycare after school

778

:

program, whatever the facilities are,

it requires them by law to have an

779

:

IPM plan for indoor and outdoor use.

780

:

And those IPM plans have

to have a coordinator.

781

:

They have to list what the target species

are, what materials by active ingredient

782

:

and what product types are being used.

783

:

So it's a required law.

784

:

And if anyone was going to look at

how to start, you might consider, if

785

:

you're in Massachusetts, you might

consider looking at, or in any state

786

:

that has this, you might consider

looking at those school plans.

787

:

So um, it's, it's eye opening when you

start to see it because right in our

788

:

schools we're seeing um, quite a bit

of anticoagulant rodenticides that are

789

:

listed for use as a, uh, as a, as a

means of control for, for rats and mice.

790

:

DrG: Yeah, and you know, even the, uh,

with speaking with Lla Anderson, the

791

:

Massachusetts Pesticide Control Act

792

:

says that it can not cause unreasonable

adverse effect to the environment, right?

793

:

And the environment is going to

involve not just the wildlife, but

794

:

the individuals and everything else.

795

:

Everybody.

796

:

That's correct.

797

:

So in essence, it's violating that.

798

:

James Joyce II: Yeah, that's correct.

799

:

It absolutely is.

800

:

And so I look at you know, I'm

so I look at it also from the

801

:

perspective of wildlife habitat.

802

:

So we don't want to adversely affect

the wildlife, but there are, so they all

803

:

live in wildlife habitats and some of

these wildlife habitats are all priority

804

:

habitats, especially in Massachusetts.

805

:

And you can look at this state by state

and it all runs pretty much the same way.

806

:

So you want to make sure that, yeah,

you're not harming the wildlife,

807

:

but you want to make sure that

you're not allowing this material

808

:

to get into wildlife habitats.

809

:

So streams, rivers.

810

:

Bordering vegetated wetland, uh, you

know, any of that, uh, any of that,

811

:

any of those resource areas, you don't

want to allow that material to have an

812

:

opportunity to migrate into those areas.

813

:

Because as you know the half life on this

on this material and second generation

814

:

materials fairly long So it will last in

the environment for for for quite a while.

815

:

we have a study So Michelle, there's

one thing that on this IPM document.

816

:

There's quite a bit of research

documentation that's in that IPM

817

:

document, including a study that was

done over in Europe on anticoagulant

818

:

rodenticides in water and how long it

lasts and the implications of that.

819

:

It was provided to me, actually provided

to me by some marine biologists up

820

:

at, uh, one of the wildlife refuges

up here in eastern Massachusetts.

821

:

So Parker Riven National Wildlife Refuge.

822

:

And, uh, again, that's pretty, it's pretty

interesting reading about what happens

823

:

with this material that people think that.

824

:

It just dissipates in water,

but that's not really the case.

825

:

And it does show up in fish and, and,

and these different microorganisms.

826

:

So yeah, definitely does.

827

:

DrG: On the legal aspect as well,

something that, that is not common sense

828

:

is why they are allowed when they are

killing endangered species that are

829

:

protected by the endangered species act.

830

:

James Joyce II: You know, that's always

the big, the big argument is that.

831

:

We have, the United States Fish

and Wildlife has a list, all the

832

:

listed species in the country.

833

:

They have them by state,

and they also classify them.

834

:

In Massachusetts, we have our own.

835

:

We have our own Massachusetts Endangered

Species Act, and we have the, and we

836

:

have a Department of Mass in the Mass

Fishing Game, which is the Natural

837

:

History and Endangered Species Program.

838

:

And we have state listed birds and, you

know, birds, plants, reptiles, animals,

839

:

we have them in this, in this act.

840

:

And if you look at bald

eagles, for instance.

841

:

Bald eagles and peregrine falcons,

but I'll use bald eagles specifically

842

:

because we've had rodenticide deaths

in bald eagles That's listed as a spurt

843

:

of special concern It falls under the

massachusetts endangered species act

844

:

and we actually have people who are

part of the pest control industry Who

845

:

say that we have no listed species in

massachusetts, which is just absolutely

846

:

incorrect and so again it's let's

Let's all work with the facts instead

847

:

of working by What fits our agendas?

848

:

Let's work with the facts,

you know, um, so yeah

849

:

DrG: a lot of misinformation happening.

850

:

James Joyce II: Yeah, I've got nesting

peregrine falcons that are right over

851

:

here in my in my town and they they nest

in an area That's it's a priority habitat

852

:

of rare species and not, A couple of

hundred feet away We've got bait boxes

853

:

bait stations around that now not that

peregrine falcons are typically rodent

854

:

eaters But they're opportunists and we

have photographs of them eating rats

855

:

and that kind of thing So but that just

the fact that you know if you're If you,

856

:

if you want to make an argument, base

it on the facts, and, and I don't think

857

:

that you should be able, I don't think

you should be trying to move your, move

858

:

your argument based upon misinformation.

859

:

I just don't think so, I don't think

it's right, and I think there's a

860

:

lot of it going on on my opinion.

861

:

DrG: No, absolutely,

I, I completely agree.

862

:

So I guess, in, in closing, I want

to know, what was your experience

863

:

with the Animal Law Clinic?

864

:

James Joyce II: Well, so that

is an interesting, that's an

865

:

interesting how that came about.

866

:

So back in the beginning of 2023, I

was asked if I would be interested in

867

:

talking with, uh, Lisa Owens Vianney

out at Raptors are the Solution

868

:

about perhaps putting a statewide

initiative into Massachusetts.

869

:

What would that coalition look

like if we were going to do it?

870

:

And In an April of 2023, I assembled

a, a cross functional group.

871

:

There were 19 of us that were

on the zoom call with, with

872

:

Lisa, and she went through.

873

:

Her entire, um, presentation

on how California approached

874

:

this problem that they had.

875

:

What worked?

876

:

What did they try to do legislatively?

877

:

And then, what did they

ultimately do with litigation?

878

:

And how did that work?

879

:

And if we were going to try that

in the state of Massachusetts,

880

:

what would that look like for us?

881

:

And one of the comments that came out on

that was to, to talk with, to reach out

882

:

to and talk with various law clinics.

883

:

Harvard Law, the Animal Law Clinic at

Harvard Law, was one of the clinics

884

:

that was suggested As by the group, and

so when I compiled all the information

885

:

into an outbrief, I had that down as one

of the action items, and it was Marci

886

:

Cemenska, who reached out to Harvard Law.

887

:

But

888

:

that, that's how it happened, um, and it,

it, it really came out of, it's funny,

889

:

because the wildlife veterinarians that

were on that call, um, they had some

890

:

experience with that and they actually

were the ones that, that suggested it.

891

:

And then, you know, Marcy got that

into the law clinic and then she, you

892

:

know, then she reached out to myself

and, and my wife Patty and, and then

893

:

we got on board and then we got.

894

:

Of course, then we got our wildlife

rehabbers on board too, which

895

:

that's where all the power is.

896

:

DrG: Yeah.

897

:

And in reading the petition, they did

a really good job at explaining the

898

:

problem and, you know, laying out who

the, the individuals involved were, um,

899

:

you know, all the petitioners and then

kind of not just saying this is a problem,

900

:

but there are solutions out there.

901

:

James Joyce II: Correct.

902

:

Correct.

903

:

There's a, there's a multitude of

solutions out there and, um, we just

904

:

have to find a way to get our towns and

cities and residents and kind of, you

905

:

know, driving towards that, that common,

common goal or common solution, which,

906

:

you know, I always say try something.

907

:

There's something, there are things

out there that are effective.

908

:

So why not give them a try and do it in

combination with different, different

909

:

materials, different, different methods.

910

:

Um, we could try it all and you can,

you know, You can pilot programs and

911

:

you can implement them, but I mean at

least give it a try instead of Just you

912

:

know business as usual and you know,

we'll just uh, we'll just continue

913

:

to get on the path that we're going

914

:

DrG: Right and with the app we can keep

track if the solutions are working or not

915

:

so that we can make changes as we go along

916

:

James Joyce II: we definitely can so if

If uh with that app if if we go back and

917

:

somebody makes a change and and now we log

that in Uh into the app that they went to

918

:

they went to this change Then then we'll

know what it is and we can keep track

919

:

of it and we can see how effective it is

920

:

DrG: so if any of our listeners want

to get more information about the

921

:

organization, are you on social media?

922

:

Is there a website?

923

:

How can, how can they reach you?

924

:

James Joyce II: We are on social media.

925

:

We have a, um, a Facebook group and, uh,

it's, um, you can just search Friends

926

:

of Horn Pond and, and you'll find us.

927

:

Uh, we could add one thing.

928

:

So we, we do have a motto.

929

:

What we started off with and

it's making, so we call it

930

:

making a difference together.

931

:

And it really sums up

exactly what we're all about.

932

:

Um, And it really is collaboration and,

uh, you know, collaboration and action.

933

:

DrG: I love that because you know,

everything that we do, like with

934

:

my organization, my practice,

everything's about collaboration, right?

935

:

No one group can do everything by

themselves and all different types

936

:

bring different things to the table.

937

:

James Joyce II: It, it's exactly right.

938

:

And you know, in my, in my past life,

that was, that was the way in my

939

:

entire career, how, how things worked.

940

:

Um, and it had to be a collaborative

effort, cross functional,

941

:

which is exactly what this is.

942

:

Our, our non profit is exactly that.

943

:

But this coalition that we've

built, Um, is is exactly based on

944

:

that foundation, collaboration,

action, partnerships, science.

945

:

It's it's it all rolls together.

946

:

DrG: Excellent.

947

:

Well, thank you so much for spending

this time and sharing your knowledge

948

:

And thank you for everything that

you're doing for the birds and for

949

:

your voice in this rodenticide issue

950

:

James Joyce II: Thank you,

Michelle, been a pleasure,

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.