Stop Poisoning Our Birds! Massachusetts Advocates Fighting Against Anticoagulant Rodenticides part 2
This is part two of a two-part series on the petition created by the Harvard Law School's Animal Law Clinic on behalf of wildlife animal advocates seeking to eliminate anticoagulant rodenticides in Massachusetts. Not only are these poisons a cruel way to kill rodents, the victims of these devices extend to wildlife and even species that are protected.
Our guests will discuss how they have come together in this fight, the importance of education of the public on this issue, and what we can do together to promote species conservation and welfare. They will also share their personal experiences as they are first hand witnesses of the injuries suffered by eagles, hawks, owls, and other wildlife.
Part I guests are:
Lla Anderson, Law student at the Harvard Law School
Laura Kiesel, founder of Save Arlington Wildlife
Part II guests are:
Marci Cemenska founder of Save Lexington Wildlife
James Joyce II, founder of Friends of Horn Pond
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.
2
:This is your host, Dr.
3
:G and our music is written
and produced by Mike Sullivan.
4
:This is part two of our episode, Stop
Poisoning Our Birds, which is about
5
:Massachusetts advocates that are fighting
against anticoagulant rodenticides.
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:So if you have not listened to
part one yet, I would recommend
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:you pause, listen to part one, and
then continue on to this episode.
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:On this episode, part two, we're going
to hear from Marci Cemenska from Save
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:Lexington Wildlife and from James
Joyce II from Friends of Horn Pond.
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:Our next guest is Marci Cemenska.
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:Marci is the founder of the
Save Lexington Wildlife.
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:Thank you, Marci, for being here,
and welcome to the Junction.
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:So can you start by letting
our listeners know about your
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:background and then what led
you to where you are at today.
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:Marci Cemenska: Well, that's
an interesting question.
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:I'm not exactly sure how I got
here, but I find myself here.
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:So, um, yeah, I've always liked animals.
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:So I grew up in Illinois.
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:Um, I always liked animals.
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:Uh, then I lived in
Colorado for a long time.
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:Then I moved to Massachusetts,
but I really wasn't involved in a
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:anything politically or, you know,
any, you know, Action like this.
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:But then I started getting involved
with Indivisible in:
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:started a group in Lexington.
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:And so that was probably sort of
the start of my activists, you
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:know, being a unpaid protesters.
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:My husband says, um, and then a few
years ago, I got involved with the
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:North Atlantic right whale issue.
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:Uh, uh, so they're one of the most
endangered species on the planet.
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:And, um, a friend of mine was leading
up some campaigns and supporting
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:federal legislation to get ropeless
gear, get funding for ropeless gear.
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:So I got greatly involved
with that and helped her out
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:through my indivisible network.
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:And so, um, we had, I think, all of
the congressional delegations signed
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:on to that by the end of the campaign.
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:And so, um, and then in 2021,
I think I heard about the owls
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:that were dying of rodenticide.
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:And I learned about that issue, and I
guess I just thought it was unacceptable.
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:That, you know, that we're killing all
these wild animals, and that there's all
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:these readily available alternatives.
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:And so, um, in 2022, I got more involved,
and then I helped, um, Laura and Gary
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:Menon at a table in Arlington, and then
in:
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:a, at a presentation in Lexington, and
then late last year, and, you know, I
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:just kept kind of getting more and more,
more involved, and then late last year
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:in November, um, I did a couple things.
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:One, I started Save Lexington Wildlife.
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:And I also decided that we should bring
something to town meeting in Lexington.
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:And so Save Lexington Wildlife was sort
of a vehicle to raise awareness and,
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:and get that article to town meeting.
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:DrG: I think it's important to
educate people because I think that
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:a lot of the public do not, is not
aware of the dangers of rodenticides.
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:Not only to the wildlife, but also to
even their families and their pets.
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:But also just the, uh, The death
of these animals is something
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:that is pretty torturous, right?
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:It's pretty excruciating.
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:How would you say that, that the way
that these wildlife animals are poisoned,
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:how does it affect you directly?
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:Marci Cemenska: Well, these
perfectly healthy animals are just
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:bleeding to death, and there's just
something wrong with that, right?
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:I mean, the, the raptors tend to
just bleed out of their feathers.
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:You know, where they attach to their
body, um, with mammals, I think
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:it's more internal, but I think
it's extremely painful and, um, it's
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:just, it's just senseless, um, you
know, that we have this going on.
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:And yeah, so it's a, it's an
excruciating death because they're
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:essentially hemorrhaging inside.
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:DrG: I know that you've taken part in this
petition through the Harvard Animal Law
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:Clinic, uh, but what other things have
you done as far as to be able to engage
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:the community in an advocacy effort?
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:Marci Cemenska: Uh, so, you know, I
held the public forum with Laura and
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:Gary in 2023, and then since Creating
Safe Lexington Wildlife, um, we,
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:the first thing that we kind of did
was I ordered the 100 yard signs.
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:And then, you know, people in, say,
Lexington Wildlife helped me get
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:those distributed, so if you drive
around Lexington, you know, there's
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:a hundred yard signs that say, you
know, don't poison our food, and
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:it's got a picture of the owl on it.
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:Um, and then we held a, another
public forum in February.
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:We had Laura and Gary come back
to educate people on the issue.
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:And then on March 2nd, we hosted a big
event in Lexington Center, and we had
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:Jane Newhouse and Eyes on Owls come.
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:And then we also had several organizations
that were tabling, like the SGAR
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:Brigade, and then Gary had a table.
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:Um, and so that was a big
event to get the word out.
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:And then, really, the, the town meeting
was a huge way to get the word out,
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:because your, um, You know, it's,
it's on the town meeting warrant.
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:People are seeing it.
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:There's all these presentations you
have to make, whether it's to the select
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:board or the conservation committee or
the recreation committee or, um, or,
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:you know, local groups that asked us to
come, like Lex Climate Action Network to
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:find out about the issue, because some
of these local groups will, um, will lend
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:support to these, um, Uh, to these various
articles, they're environmental related.
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:So that was just a really great way to
reach a whole lot of people on the issue.
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:Actually, two years ago, I
actually created bookmarks.
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:So I went to a conference, an
individual conference in the summer.
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:I created bookmarks that had
information on it and the bill numbers.
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:Um, so, so that might've been the
first thing that I created, but
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:the last year with town meeting,
it was just a, a really great forum
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:to reach a whole lot of people.
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:DrG: What kind of feedback are you getting
from like the public and the lawmakers?
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:Does it look like somebody is listening?
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:Marci Cemenska: Well, the public
is very supportive of this issue.
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:I always say that, um, people don't
know about it, but as soon as they
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:hear about it, they're supportive.
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:I think most people just don't like
the idea of perfectly healthy animals
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:bleeding to death when there's
readily available alternatives.
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:I think most people see
the injustice in that.
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:DrG: How was it working
with the Animal Law Clinic?
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:Marci Cemenska: Oh, it's been wonderful.
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:Absolutely wonderful.
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:So I knew of the clinics at
Harvard Law School before.
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:And so that's why I contacted them.
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:Um, but it just, you know, just the
whole crew at Harvard Law has, was just
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:wonderful throughout the whole process.
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:DrG: So what what do you hope that
will come out from these petitions?
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:Do you think that something will happen?
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:Or do you think this is just like the
first step to what's next to come?
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:Marci Cemenska: Of course, we
all hope that they'll disagree
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:to the petition, right?
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:That there will be enough evidence
for them to suspend the registration.
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:I honestly don't have enough
knowledge to say what will happen.
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:But, um, I also try to take these
things one step at a time, so if, if
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:they deny it, you know, I, I don't
know enough whether they can deny it
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:in, um, the whole thing or whether
they might accept some of it, but
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:not others, I, I really don't know.
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:But I think that, uh, the petitioners
are all committed, so we'll see what
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:happens and then take, do whatever
steps we need next if, you know, if
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:that's what, if that's what happens.
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:DrG: So if somebody that's listening
is interested in being an advocate,
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:what would you tell them is going
to be what they should be doing?
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:Marci Cemenska: I think find out about the
issue, try to educate yourself, you know,
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:either, uh, from other activists or from
materials that are up on, you know, the
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:internet, there's all kinds of materials.
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:Um, I'm going to say putting those
yard signs out was just a fantastic
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:way of getting the word out.
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:Because when you're driving around,
Lexington's not that big of a town,
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:but when you're driving around and
there's a hundred yard signs out there,
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:it just, it catches people's interest.
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:And then we, I also have these
t shirts, uh, that have that
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:same, you know, owl emblem.
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:And those T shirts attract attention,
and people start asking about it.
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:So I think if you can put these
things out there and have people
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:start saying, What is that?
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:You know, and you tell them,
You start getting, you start
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:seeing a lot of support.
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:For the issue.
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:DrG: How can, how can individuals find
information about your organization?
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:Marci Cemenska: So we have a
website, safelexingtonwildlife.
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:org.
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:And then we also have
a, um, a Facebook page.
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:So either one of those,
they can find out about us.
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:DrG: So we're, we're thinking
about, you know, the department of
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:agricultural resources, putting these
rodenticides out, but there's also
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:businesses that will do it privately.
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:So what have you done in that regards and
how, what, what have been the results?
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:Marci Cemenska: Well, I think that's
been limited so far, but it's something
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:that I kind of would like to do,
you know, one of the next steps.
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:We did a lot of work with Whole
Foods, the Whole Foods in Arlington,
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:Massachusetts, I should say.
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:But we also contacted the home
office that was out west of here.
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:I don't know that that had a positive
effect other than, I don't know.
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:You know, a lot of
activists came together.
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:And so that's always, you know, energy
generating to go and be there at
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:the store, but Whole Foods was not
receptive at all to hearing about it.
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:And then there was a campaign that
Laura organized to essentially everybody
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:call the home office and leave messages
and fill their box, which did happen.
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:But I don't.
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:There wasn't really any movement as far
as I can tell on that issue, um, which I
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:think Whole Foods is a perfect candidate
to target in the sense that it's part
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:of their mission to be a good, you know,
neighbor and citizen, but at least in this
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:aspect they're not, but I still think that
that's a good organization to target if we
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:can gather enough resources in the future.
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:Um, the other, um, business that
was Petition was the New England
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:Aquarium and so they had bait boxes
outside and, um, you know, due to
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:various advocacies and conversations
and then Laura created a petition.
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:They took away the bait
boxes from their location.
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:Yeah, I mean, I think that was another.
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:I don't know what you call it, crazy case.
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:Here you have the New England Aquarium,
whose thing is conservation, saving right
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:whales, saving, you know, things in the
ocean, and they've got a bait box outside
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:the seal enclosure in the back, you know?
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:Um, in fact, I went to a event once
on right whales and the president
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:of the aquarium was there and
I basically took her over and
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:pointed to the bait box, you know?
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:Um, yeah, I think it's an issue.
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:A lot of people just don't know about it.
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:You know, they just don't know, and so
until it comes to their attention, I
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:think, um, you know, it just happens.
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:I've come to believe that this whole
rodenticide issue is like an afterthought.
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:You know, people put together, whether
it's a plan or an IPM or they don't
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:really think about it at all, but it's
like an afterthought, you know, they'll
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:just rubber stamp something versus
really thinking about the dangers of
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:these chemicals and what they might do.
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:And so the more you can talk to people
and raise awareness, I think the better.
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:DrG: Yeah, I think that, you know,
they've been presented with a problem,
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:which is the rodent population.
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:And then that was kind
of the easy fix, right?
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:It's like, we're just going to.
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:Plant poison and it just takes care of
itself and not really thinking about
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:the repercussions to the environment.
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:So I think that now, you know,
it's unfortunate that so many
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:animals have had to suffer and die.
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:But hopefully, you know, we can
use this information to show
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:them that this needs to stop.
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:And that they are better, more humane,
not just, not just more humane for the
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:wildlife and for companion animals,
but even for the rodents, even if you
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:don't like rodents, you should not want
them to suffer a horrible death, right?
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:Marci Cemenska: Their death
from these second generation
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:anticoagulants is horrible.
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:You know, they're hemorrhaging and, you
know, maybe living for a couple of days
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:in the state, so it's really horrible.
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:Um, I mean, so I've attended
the wildlife rehabilitators of
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:Association of Massachusetts, RAM.
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:And even on there, you know,
you get people that rehabbers
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:basically say, actually the most
humane way is like snap traps.
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:You know, it's quick, right,
versus any kind of poison.
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:But I've also come to believe that part
of the problem with these rodenticides
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:is that people are so squeamish.
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:They, it's almost like they just can't
bear to see a mouse dead in a trap.
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:Unfortunately, you know,
you can use rodenticides.
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:And then it's going to go
up the food chain, right?
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:And so side out of mind, out of
sight, out of mind, because I think
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:they, they don't want to have to
deal with seeing that, that mouse or,
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:you know, that rat, you know, dead.
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:But in the meantime, you know,
things are dying all around us.
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:Um, so I, I, I sometimes wonder
if that's another part of
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:the, of an education campaign.
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:You know, not just alternatives,
but trying to decide what, what
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:people find less scary or, you
know, how to get over that.
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:DrG: Yeah, and in talking to
Laura, you know, we discuss about
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:how us humans create the problem.
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:Like sometimes, you know, the way that
we dispose of our trash, the way that
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:we, you know, deal with things that,
you know, we leave, uh, people that
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:have colonies of cats, for instance,
outside and leave the food outside all
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:the time and don't clean out at all.
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:After them bird feeders like sometimes
we are causing the problem and we
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:are inviting these these pasts these
so called pasts into our environment
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:And then we're scrambling to find a
solution where the solution is for us
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:to change The our actions just change
the way that we're doing things.
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:Marci Cemenska: Right.
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:And so, and you know, Laura probably
mentioned this, but in:
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:530, 000 pounds of this stuff was put
down in the state of Massachusetts.
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:That's a lot of poison to be putting
whether an animal consumes it, or it
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:ends up in the dirt or a waterway.
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:It's just a lot of poison.
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:Right.
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:And, um, that is not.
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:That quantity is not the last line
of defense, do you know what I mean?
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:If it was the last line, you wouldn't
be having this, this quantity.
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:And so that's really the problem.
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:So I guess it's just easy.
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:It's easy for people and pest
control operators to put it down
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:versus doing a slightly harder work.
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:Although, you know, unless you do
the exclusion, do the other things,
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:you're still going to have mice.
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:You're going to have mice in, in
your house or, or whatever, right?
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:Until you do these other prevention steps.
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:DrG: Yeah, as long as the resources,
you know, the area has the
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:resources to feed and maintain the
mice, they're going to be there.
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:So we need to be there.
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:Marci Cemenska: Yeah, you know, and I went
to a webinar once and it was interesting.
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:They made the case in some way, you know,
you may not ever get down to zero, but
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:there's maybe some acceptable level.
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:You know, there's two mice.
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:If I get a mouse in my house
twice a year, one mouse, I can
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:probably live with that, right?
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:With a trap or something, you know?
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:If I have a thousand in my house,
you know, that's a different story.
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:That would be a huge problem, right?
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:And so I'm not sure if some people also
walk around thinking that there should,
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:there shouldn't be a rat on earth, right?
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:There should be no rats.
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:Versus if there's one rat and he's out
there, it's not bothering me, you know?
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:DrG: Well, and we need,
and they need to be there.
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:They need to exist because they are
feeding all of these other animals, right?
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:Because we, we say we love the birds
and we want to save the birds from
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:these rodenticides, but we can't
eliminate all the rats and the mice
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:because that's what they're feeding off.
277
:I know that I, I often, as I'm driving
home, I will see a big bird that will
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:come just flying all the way down and
then they just come off the field with
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:something on their, on their grasp.
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:So, they, they're doing their job.
281
:So, if we, you know, if we
poison their food and we kill
282
:them, who's gonna do that job?
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:We're gonna be in, in worse
trouble than we're in right now.
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:Marci Cemenska: Yeah, there's
all these other threats.
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:I think that's another for me.
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:Another part of the equation is, you
know, there's the rodenticide threat.
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:There's all the building threat.
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:There's the climate change.
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:There's all these threats on animals.
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:And here's 1 that we can actually, we can
actually deal with and use something else.
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:And so, I mean, climate change, it's,
it's such a much bigger problem.
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:It's harder to deal with, but I can
use a different poison that doesn't
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:go up the food chain, or I can use
snap traps, or I can use repellents,
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:or, you know, I can maybe figure
out, you know, how to get this hawk
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:to come down to my yard more often.
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:You know, I can put an owl, an owl,
a box in my yard, you know, there's
297
:all these things that we can do.
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:Um, so it's just, it's just.
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:It's just crazy that we're
using this, you know, the second
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:generation anti coagulant so much.
301
:I mean, nobody wants rats in their, in
their house or their school or right.
302
:Nobody wants that.
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:So then the trick is to, to find a way to
eliminate it or, you know, to manage it.
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:DrG: Yeah, different problems are
going to have different solutions
305
:to, like, for instance, in my house,
like, I would, I would hope I don't
306
:have any mice with my cats, right?
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:I would hope that they would do
their job and, and eliminate them.
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:But you think about, like, a school or a
food place or somewhere that cannot have
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:animals inside, then they're going to have
to think about a different, um, source.
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:And that's where, in these collaborative
efforts, everybody coming together
311
:and saying, you know, like, this
works for this situation, this works
312
:for this situation, so everybody can.
313
:Can work towards a solution.
314
:Marci Cemenska: I mean, I think
it's fair to say you probably
315
:wouldn't want to go to a restaurant
where there's rats in the kitchen.
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:Right?
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:I think we can all agree on that.
318
:Right?
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:DrG: Yes.
320
:Marci Cemenska: Um, but I think there's
all these possibilities to use before
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:you get to these anticoagulants.
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:You know,
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:.
DrG: I don't want rats around my food.
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:I also don't want poison around my food.
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:Marci Cemenska: Yeah, you don't
want poison around your food.
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:Yeah.
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:I'm going to go back to a question
you asked me in the very beginning,
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:and I don't know if this is helpful,
but you said, what's my background?
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:The thing is, I don't really have any
background in biology or that, not
330
:that much in activism or anything,
you know, but I think if you care
331
:about an issue, you can get involved
and you can make a difference.
332
:And that's why I kind of like, froze
when you asked me that question, right?
333
:But I just think if you care about an
issue, you just start somewhere, either
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:with a friend or doing some research or
talking to your town, and you just, you
335
:know, you just keep building on that.
336
:So, you know, now I find myself, right,
leading up this organization in Lexington
337
:and, And, uh, I mean, the, our article
passed 157 to one, so resounding success
338
:in Lexington, you know, on, you know,
resounding support for this article.
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:So what, what, what was
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:DrG: the article?
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:Marci Cemenska: Um, the article we had
was, uh, basically to, uh, it was a
342
:resolution to ask the town to develop
integrated pest management policies that
343
:prohibit the use of escars on town on
land and also to provide public education
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:about the hazards of these rodenticides.
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:And so, um, so that was our first step.
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:We hope, you know, um,
we hope to come back.?
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:At town meeting.
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:So, um, I don't know, I'm not
from the East Coast, so this idea
349
:of town meeting was new to me.
350
:But here towns do town meeting
and Lexington has what they call
351
:representative town meeting.
352
:So every precinct elects
nine town meeting members.
353
:Uh, so they're kind of the
legislative body of the town.
354
:Um, and so that, you know,
that was, you know, where you
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:take these kinds of things.
356
:Yeah, so if you look at, um, I don't know
if you're interested, but if you look at
357
:Lexington Town Meeting 2024 and you go
to Article 40, you can see the kind of
358
:materials I had to, I had to put up there,
the presentation, the slide deck, uh,
359
:recommendations or support from the select
board and, and other entities in the town.
360
:And then actually the Harvard effort that
provided us with, you know, just a, A huge
361
:amount of information and, um, I mean,
I say every, every activist in this, you
362
:know, rodenticide movement should read
that petition and that request because we
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:can all speculate how it works or what the
law is or what the rules are, you know,
364
:but unless someone interprets it from a
legal standpoint, it may not be accurate.
365
:And so I found that like vastly
important for my knowledge on this
366
:issue to be able to advocate for it.
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:DrG: And we're going to be sharing
the petition again, not just to
368
:bring awareness to the problem there
in Massachusetts, but I'm sure that
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:this is happening in other places.
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:So, you know, they may not
know that they have a problem.
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:Marci Cemenska: I think each state that
does something, we'll do it a little
372
:different, but then each state will add
to the body of knowledge for other states.
373
:That wanna take action.
374
:And so I think, I think the value
in, in creating this petition and
375
:everything, I mean, you know, I, of
course I want it to pass, but there's
376
:already been a huge benefit to doing
it as far as education and 'cause,
377
:you know, letting the state know that.
378
:We are taking action in this way.
379
:So we're pursuing not just a legislative
approach, but also a legal approach.
380
:So to me, all that is a huge value.
381
:I mean, I am so thankful that
Harvard Law took this case.
382
:You know, I'm so thankful.
383
:DrG: Yeah.
384
:And it looks like they put a
lot of heart and effort into it.
385
:Again, writing the petition and
getting all the information and getting
386
:everybody together and giving each of
each of the advocates their own voice.
387
:And then, together voice, right?
388
:Marci Cemenska: Yeah.
389
:I mean, you know, they, I have no idea
how many hours, you know, they spent
390
:on this because it was two semesters
of students and then all the staff.
391
:And this, it's a huge effort to
put something like this together.
392
:But I'm so thankful that they did.
393
:DrG: I'm
394
:Marci Cemenska: glad that they're there
and I'm glad that there are clinics like
395
:this that are going to help with advocacy
efforts, especially, you know, in times
396
:where, you know, It's a big issue, but
there's not a lot of money and a lot of
397
:finances backing it up that there are
these pro bono clinics that, um, that
398
:are there to help to help these cases.
399
:Yeah, I mean, because I mean, at least
in Massachusetts, it's just a collection.
400
:It's just a grassroots collection
of people and organizations, right?
401
:There's no overriding state body
that's doing this, you know,
402
:it's not like funds somewhere.
403
:Um, it's just individual
groups and people.
404
:And so the fact that, you know,
that the Harvard Law Animal Policy
405
:Clinic exists and took this case.
406
:I mean, you know, I just can't express
how thankful I am that they did that.
407
:DrG: Well, thank you for being here.
408
:Thank you for joining us and for
sharing your information and thank
409
:you for everything that you're doing.
410
:Marci Cemenska: Thank you.
411
:DrG: Our final guest is James Joyce
II, founder of Friends of Horn Pond.
412
:Thank you for being here
and welcome to The Junction.
413
:James Joyce II: Thank you, Michelle.
414
:Great to be here.
415
:DrG: Excellent.
416
:Can you first begin by letting
us know about your background
417
:and kind of what brought you
to create Friends of Horn Pond?
418
:James Joyce II: Yeah, sure.
419
:So, uh, so my background is, my
background is actually in engineering.
420
:I'm retired now.
421
:I retired at the end of 2020.
422
:And I was in the microelectronics
and semiconductor, uh, industry.
423
:So it's a big difference for
between what I'm doing now and
424
:what I was doing as a profession.
425
:But I've always been an outdoorsman, uh,
my whole life, and, um, specifically,
426
:I've been, uh, monitoring and
following, uh, birds of prey for
427
:the better part of 40 or 50 years.
428
:And that includes bald eagles and
peregrine falcons, which are, you
429
:know, state listed in Massachusetts.
430
:Um, so what got me to this point
was, um, Around:
431
:wife and I had been photographing,
uh, bald eagles in, uh, along the
432
:Charles River in Massachusetts.
433
:But we also were noticing quite
a bit of an uptick in bait
434
:stations that were around.
435
:And, you know, at the time we
didn't really pay much attention to
436
:it, although it was something new
and I didn't really realize that.
437
:Um,
438
:and then in 2021, uh, when I was, had
retired and I, now I made a, a real
439
:study out of this bald eagle, nesting
bald eagles along the Mystic River
440
:Watershed in, uh, in Massachusetts,
eastern Massachusetts, I, um, you
441
:know, we had a, a bald eagle that,
uh, two bald eagles, MK and KZ, that,
442
:uh, hatched two chicks, eaglets.
443
:25 C and 26 C.
444
:And of course, three weeks after
the fledge, 25 C came down with, um,
445
:a significant case of rodenticide
poisoning and, and subsequently died.
446
:And, and so, so that got us to the
point of now we're really paying
447
:attention and looking into what
exactly is, is going on in the state,
448
:as far as legislation is concerned,
what are the things that we could do?
449
:So, uh, Patty Sears, Joyce, Jeannie
Bowen, and I founded the Friends of Horn
450
:Pond in 2022 as a local conservation
group in Woburn, Massachusetts.
451
:We decided to take action when in 2015,
we began seeing a significant increase
452
:of rodent bait stations throughout
Eastern Massachusetts watershed
453
:areas where we follow bald eagles.
454
:And then in 2021, When two of our
bald eagles died of anticoagulant
455
:rodenticide poisoning in the Charles
River Watershed and the Mystic
456
:River Watershed, respectively.
457
:So we're a 501c3 nonprofit organization
dedicated to conserve and preserve
458
:the Horn Pond Conservation and
Recreation Area for current and
459
:future generations through community
awareness and action, collaborative
460
:partnerships, and citizen science efforts.
461
:for the Advancement of
Environmental and Wildlife Habitats.
462
:Our three key focus areas are poison
free rodent prevention, control and
463
:monitoring, protection of the Horn
Pond public drinking watershed, and the
464
:Monofilament Reel and Recycle Program.
465
:So we have a, we had a monofilament
program that we have active
466
:throughout the pond area.
467
:Um, but we also have a very significant,
um, push on rodenticide legislation
468
:which led us to the fact that this
legislation in Massachusetts doesn't
469
:seem to go very well and it seems
to stall out and, and therefore
470
:it drove us down this path of.
471
:Uh, working with Harvard Law, as you
know, um, on this Harvard Law petition.
472
:So, that in a nutshell got us to where,
um, got us to where we are, um, you know.
473
:So, for the last few years,
this is what we've been doing.
474
:And, and I will mention one thing.
475
:There was a bald eagle, that
bald eagle nest that we had
476
:been following in Waltham.
477
:That was the bald eagle nest.
478
:That M.
479
:K., the Mystic Lake Bald Eagle,
that's where she hatched.
480
:And that was our, that was our
introduction to that, to M.
481
:K.
482
:and, and, and the two adults.
483
:And we also followed them very closely
and monitored them very closely.
484
:And the adult female eagle, also died of
rodenticide poisoning about three months
485
:before the mystic lake bald eagle died.
486
:So, you know, now we, we really had
this, we really had this tie into what's
487
:going on with, what's going on with
materials in the environment that are
488
:taking out these bald eagles that we've
been following for quite some time.
489
:So that's, that's how we started.
490
:DrG: So this issue with MK, you actually
were involved with the, with the
491
:attempt to rescue her, is that correct?
492
:James Joyce II: That is correct.
493
:You know, once you start down this, once
you start down this path, you start to
494
:make a lot of different connections and
we certainly made some real connections
495
:in with, um, the wildlife community, um,
and in with the rehab community as well.
496
:So, you know, one of the things that,
one of the things that my wife and I did
497
:early on was we really wanted to know
what kind of data is actually out there to
498
:support what we were trying to accomplish.
499
:And, and we found that, you
know, there's a lot of studies.
500
:I mean, Dr.
501
:Maureen Murray at Tufts Cummings
School of Veterinary Medicine,
502
:she's did a significant amount
of studies over a 15 year period.
503
:We read them all.
504
:But what were the, what was the
rehab community actually seeing,
505
:um, in the, you know, in the field?
506
:Well, what got us to MK was that
now we were connected to the rehab
507
:community and I had friends of mine
that, that called me up one Saturday
508
:morning and asked, geez, can you
come over here and take a look at MK?
509
:She's up in a tree with her
head slumped down, and she's not
510
:behaving like she normally does.
511
:So if you follow this eagle, you'd know
exactly what that, what that means.
512
:I mean, that was not typical
behavior for, for her.
513
:Although it was nesting season, and so she
could have been, she could have had eggs.
514
:So that was a distinct possibility,
but it was, you know, what we said
515
:was, we're not going to go up there.
516
:We can't climb the tree and,
and, and get MK out of the tree.
517
:So if she comes to the ground, then we
can, we can work with the rehab community,
518
:the veterinary community, mass wildlife.
519
:We can work with that and we can, we can
attempt to rescue, which we, which we did.
520
:And on that Monday morning, you know,
she was on the ground and again, we
521
:did the, uh, we did the rescue of MK.
522
:And, of course, that didn't, um,
that didn't work out very well as
523
:far as, uh, MK was concerned because
she passed about, um, I don't
524
:know, 36 hours later, I believe.
525
:DrG: So you don't do rehabilitation
yourself, right, but you're, you
526
:work with transport, capture and
transport of injured birds to
527
:different rehabilitation places?
528
:James Joyce II: Yeah,
that's exactly right.
529
:So we're, um, we're associates
of, um, we're associates of
530
:Cape Ann wildlife in, uh, Essex.
531
:So, uh, there's three rehabbers that
are federally permitted rehabbers that,
532
:are associated with Cape Ann wildlife.
533
:And, um, one of them, uh, Aaron
Hutchings up in Gloucester is the
534
:raptor, um, is the raptor expert.
535
:Um, so, so no, I don't, I
don't, I don't rehab anything.
536
:I, I don't want to be a rehabber.
537
:I'm fine being a rescuer and, and, and
a data, you know, a rescuer transporter,
538
:but I do quite a bit of data analysis
and that's really where the power of, of
539
:what we, what we started doing with, with
Cape Ann wildlife was that every case
540
:that came into, you know, to their rehab
and it looked to be a rodenticide case
541
:would actually investigate that case.
542
:We'd go out in the field
where the bird was found.
543
:And would actually compile all of
the bait stations, active ingredients
544
:if we could get them, product types.
545
:Any kind of label information we
would we had been doing that and we've
546
:been doing that now for close to two
years Which got us to all the data
547
:that is in the petitions that that
entire data set is um is all that work
548
:DrG: Are you seeing most baits in public
or private land or is it a combination?
549
:James Joyce II: Combination I think
the places where we see Most of the
550
:um, the second generation rodenticides,
anticoagulants, I'd say are in public
551
:spaces, not necessarily town owned, but
certainly around um, restaurants, any
552
:dumpsters, um, you know, food, waste,
any of that, uh, apartment buildings, we
553
:see quite a bit of it around, and um, as
far as residential is concerned, it's a
554
:little tricky because you You know, you
really can't, you know, I mean, you don't
555
:want to go on to somebody's private land,
private property and start poking around.
556
:And, but you can do it from the
sidewalk, which was what I do.
557
:And I've suggested this to many that,
um, you know, if you see in a residential
558
:area, if you see a bait station, you
might, you know, Want to take a photo
559
:of it from the sidewalk or the street.
560
:You can log it into an application
that we've started here, uh, which
561
:is the, uh, EWA SGARs brigade.
562
:And, and Hey, if the residents of
the homeowner are there, you might
563
:strike up a conversation with them,
which is what I do quite a bit.
564
:And then it becomes a real educational
opportunity, which in the, in the
565
:long run, though, Michelle, I think
that, you know, education outside
566
:of petitions and legislation.
567
:But education is really going
to, is really going to carry
568
:the day on this, on this issue.
569
:Uh, you know, I've, I've said many times
, and I, I didn't make up this line, but an
570
:informed consumer is a powerful consumer.
571
:And so you want to, you want to arm
the folks, whether they be residents
572
:or business owners with what exactly
do you know what you, do you know
573
:what you have and what it's doing?
574
:And, and we do have
alternate solutions for you.
575
:DrG: Yeah, no, I completely agree
with the education bit, because I
576
:think that a lot of people make bad
decisions because they don't know what
577
:the right thing to do is, and they
look for a solution, and unfortunately,
578
:these are the simple solutions, right?
579
:And if people understood that these,
these rodenticides are not just harmful to
580
:the wildlife, but even to themselves, to
their family, to their, to their children,
581
:to their pets, you know, it would be,
It would be impactful and also the fact
582
:that these, these birds that are being
killed, they are pest control, right?
583
:Like that's their, that's
nature's pest control.
584
:So by killing the birds secondarily
after using the rodenticide, we're
585
:eliminating this ability of Mother
Nature to eliminate the mice.
586
:James Joyce II: Yeah, it's, it's an
interesting, it's, it's an interesting,
587
:um, you know, dynamic that, and when I
do these, when I, when I talk to folks,
588
:you know, I'll say, uh, a single raptor,
hawk, owl, coyote, fox, any of these
589
:rodent eaters are gonna consume you
know, upwards of a couple of thousand
590
:rats a year, and, you know, maybe six
thousand mice a year, and, you know,
591
:I'll put up these, I'll put up these,
these photos in my presentations, and
592
:I'll say, you know, I have one that's
got six, and I say, just these six
593
:individual, um, you know, creatures,
animals, and, and birds, are, you know,
594
:could account for 12, 000 rats and mice.
595
:I mean, that's what we're taking
out, and they outbreed us.
596
:They outbreed the raptors, and they
outbreed everything, because all these
597
:species breed once a year, but the rats
breed 12 times a year, and, you know,
598
:they're having 15 pups, and, you know,
you can do the math and figure it all
599
:out, but it's, um, you know, it's quite
a bit of, uh, you know, it's, it's
600
:quite a disconnect between what you're
trying to accomplish and what you are
601
:accomplishing, and you're taking out
nature's, you know, the natural predators.
602
:So, I don't know how to sum it up.
603
:Any, uh, you know, any, any
easier than that, because
604
:that's exactly what we're doing.
605
:DrG: No, and it's, you know, it
sounds like common sense, but
606
:again, like common sense comes
with having some level of education
607
:or knowledge on what's happening.
608
:And that's where we need to educate
people better so that we can, we can
609
:explain this common sense to individuals.
610
:James Joyce II: Yeah, that's correct.
611
:I always say, you don't
know what you don't know.
612
:And when you, when you talk with folks,
or you stand up in front of an audience
613
:and you, you get into, you know, the
background on this issue, but then
614
:what can we do to, lower the risk,
what's available to them, what can we
615
:do as homeowners and business owners?
616
:I mean, that's when it
really starts to set in.
617
:And, um, the other thing is, You
know, nobody sees it firsthand.
618
:So this is where, you know, the wildlife
rescuers that are out there, the people
619
:who find things in their backyards
and they don't know what they've got.
620
:And, you know, once they know
or they see something, then
621
:it kind of, it really sets in.
622
:But how many people see that actually?
623
:You know, I mean, we see it all the
time, but most people don't see that.
624
:They don't, they don't see
the, they don't see the real
625
:ugly side of the whole problem.
626
:What they usually see is they usually
see hawks and owls and eagles and
627
:coyotes and foxes and they see them
in the wild and they look great and
628
:you know, they, and they don't think
anything different than that, right?
629
:And they don't connect the dots and
what's going on when they see them,
630
:if they, if they happen to see them
and they're, they're sick or injured
631
:or they're dead, then it's, um, it
can make a little bit more sense.
632
:DrG: About how many calls do you get?
633
:Like how frequently do you get
calls about injured wildlife?
634
:James Joyce II: I'm not going to say
daily, but um, we're probably out rescuing
635
:at least four to five times a week.
636
:Now, they're not all rodenticide cases.
637
:It's probably somewhere around a 50
50 split, which is not good because
638
:that's a significant uptick into what
we were seeing a couple of years ago.
639
:You know, up until a couple of years
ago, it was head trauma, you know,
640
:vehicle strikes, window strikes,
you know, that sort of thing.
641
:And it was probably 70%, maybe 75
percent of the cases with that.
642
:Now it's now it's almost an even split.
643
:It's almost 50, 50.
644
:And we had one yesterday.
645
:That's just absolutely horrific.
646
:We had a fledgling red tail hawk down
in one of the city areas, about 15
647
:miles from where we live, and we got
a call from, we got a call from Cape
648
:and wildlife and can we get on there
and take a peek at this and, you
649
:know, it was found in the road and.
650
:And it was bleeding and it bled out.
651
:And by the time we had rescued it
and got it up to, up to, you know,
652
:to care, it had, um, it had passed.
653
:So it was dead on arrival.
654
:And it's, uh, it's just an
absolutely horrific, uh, bleed out
655
:condition that, um, that we had.
656
:I mean, again, this is where, if you, if
you saw the images, people saw the images,
657
:they would just be, they'd be horrified.
658
:DrG: I'm assuming that the majority
of them are going to be either dead
659
:or barely alive by the time that
you guys are able to capture them.
660
:Would that be an accurate assessment?
661
:James Joyce II: That's a
fairly accurate assessment.
662
:Um, I would say again, a
survival rate, maybe around 50%.
663
:Um, And, and I'll say
this, timing is everything.
664
:So for your, for your, your
listeners, what's really important,
665
:it's, it's all about timing.
666
:The quicker you can identify a problem
or a bird that's in, or an animal that's
667
:in distress, the quicker you can make
that phone call, the quicker you can
668
:get a photograph or a video of it.
669
:And you get it over to the right people
in the, in the, in the rehab community,
670
:, then we can take action on it quickly.
671
:And it, and it really does come down to
a matter of, it can be a matter of hours.
672
:And in yesterday's case, It was
literally a five hour window,
673
:and that was, that was it.
674
:Five hours wasn't enough and
sometimes it's even less than that.
675
:But the quicker you can identify
that there's a problem and contact
676
:somebody, and you can get help, the
quicker it can get into care, and
677
:the better the chance of survival.
678
:DrG: So about this app, what is this app
about, and what led you to create it?
679
:James Joyce II: The application
it's from EarthWiseAware.
680
:It's on the Anecdata platform.
681
:It's, um, if you, to look this up, it's
the EWA, EarthWiseAware, SGARs Brigade,
682
:and it's a, a platform that will allow
us to log in bait stations that we find
683
:in the field, any animals, birds that
are either sick, injured, or dead in
684
:the field, and also any trash or waste
concerns that we see in the field as well
685
:What we do with the data is and right now
we've got about 120 members that are out
686
:there doing this Um, it's in the greater
boston eastern massachusetts area But I
687
:do know that we've got some folks that are
working outside of massachusetts on this
688
:because it uses anywhere in the world.
689
:And what we're doing is we actually
take the information and then we
690
:do a two level data analysis on the
information to correlate where we find
691
:bait stations in relative proximity to
where we found the dead or injured or
692
:sick animals in proximity to where do
we have the waste management problems.
693
:And you can use the data.
694
:It's open source.
695
:So you can use this.
696
:It's open to the public.
697
:Anyone can join.
698
:Um, and you can use the data for any
local, uh, legislation, policymaking,
699
:education, um, any of that.
700
:Uh, it's, it's, it's
all available for use.
701
:And I'm, Claire O'Neill is the, is the
president and founder of EarthWise Aware.
702
:Uh, I'm the co founder and president
of the Friends of Horn Pond.
703
:We worked collaboratively
and jointly on this project.
704
:So, You know, we each have a
piece, we each have a piece of it.
705
:We actually just took it to the, um,
to the recent annual conference for
706
:participatory sciences, which it, um, it
got some real rave reviews, but really
707
:the whole, the whole thing is, is that
it's a very, very easy to use application.
708
:It's, uh, it's available on your mobile
device or Androids or, or, um, or iPhones.
709
:Uh, it's a desktop application as well.
710
:So if you, if you want to input
information from your desktop,
711
:you most certainly can do that.
712
:And like I said, all the data
Including all the maps and, and,
713
:and everything that's in there
is all available for anyone.
714
:DrG: I think this is extremely useful
because we need data to, not just to
715
:understand the problem, but to evaluate
how the solutions are working, right?
716
:That is correct.
717
:It's the beginning and the end of it.
718
:Just saying, you know, this
is what we're proposing.
719
:Well is what we're proposing working.
720
:So I think that this app is
really beneficial on both ends.
721
:James Joyce II: Absolutely it is.
722
:It's um, it can, I feel as though it
can help out, it can help everyone.
723
:It's um, it's something that we can
use as, as rescuers and rehabilitators.
724
:We can use that as, as people who are,
you know, working in the cities and towns.
725
:Pest professionals could use it.
726
:Um, our state government, so our,
our Massachusetts Department of
727
:Agricultural Resources and the
Department of Energy and Environment,
728
:I mean, they can use that information.
729
:I think it's a win win for everyone.
730
:I really do.
731
:And, and, and again, I don't think
that there's, there is no one,
732
:There's no smoking gun, there's no
one, you know, one thing that can
733
:solve this, solve this problem.
734
:In the end, no one wants rats.
735
:That's how I always say it.
736
:No, nobody wants rats, but you want
to be smart about how you either
737
:eliminate them from your homes, your
businesses, and how you keep them out.
738
:I mean, that's where I think
the power really begins.
739
:So when, you know, when you start
researching this out, you know,
740
:there's a lot of, there's a lot
of, um, there's a lot of myths that
741
:are associated with, with the laws.
742
:And until we sent down this path with
Harvard Law, and they did all of the
743
:research on the, on the laws in, in
the state of Massachusetts, um, we
744
:found out things that intuitively,
you would think that an outside
745
:bait station would require a label.
746
:It, it does not.
747
:There is no law in the book
in Massachusetts that requires
748
:that, and there's nothing
on the federal level either.
749
:The law in Massachusetts requires that
if you're going to use bait inside, or if
750
:you're going to have a bait station inside
of a building, That has to be labeled.
751
:It has to be labeled with the
ingredients and, and that.
752
:So, so that was an important
piece of information.
753
:And so there's a misconception out there
about what is required to be labeled
754
:and what's not required to be labeled.
755
:Um, we did create a couple of documents
that are available for the public.
756
:One of them is, I call it, it's called
the, um, Rodent Bait Station Overview.
757
:We created it back several months ago
and rolled it out to Mass Audubon.
758
:They've, they've, um, they're
now published it on their website
759
:in their Rescue Raptors program.
760
:It's out with a variety
of different groups.
761
:And we also created another document that
is, it's called Safe Rodent Prevention.
762
:It's a safe rodent IPM
options and resource document.
763
:We created that too, which gives you
a menu driven, um, approach to how
764
:you can implement safe prevention
and rodent control without having
765
:to use anticoagulant rodenticides
and mostly any other rodenticides.
766
:Um, and people can use that document
and they can see they can, you know,
767
:it's a menu driven so they can.
768
:They can, they can pick a, pick
a solution or pick something and
769
:there could be a multiple, multiple
factors that they want to try.
770
:Yeah.
771
:Like I say, it's not one size fits
all, but, um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's,
772
:it's, it's funny how the, how the laws
work and what people know, again what
773
:people know and what they don't know.
774
:Um, one thing in Massachusetts is that,
uh, we do have a, a law that's been on
775
:the books since November 22 of 2000.
776
:It's the Child and
Families Protection Act.
777
:And in that, in that, in that law calls
for a, every school daycare after school
778
:program, whatever the facilities are,
it requires them by law to have an
779
:IPM plan for indoor and outdoor use.
780
:And those IPM plans have
to have a coordinator.
781
:They have to list what the target species
are, what materials by active ingredient
782
:and what product types are being used.
783
:So it's a required law.
784
:And if anyone was going to look at
how to start, you might consider, if
785
:you're in Massachusetts, you might
consider looking at, or in any state
786
:that has this, you might consider
looking at those school plans.
787
:So um, it's, it's eye opening when you
start to see it because right in our
788
:schools we're seeing um, quite a bit
of anticoagulant rodenticides that are
789
:listed for use as a, uh, as a, as a
means of control for, for rats and mice.
790
:DrG: Yeah, and you know, even the, uh,
with speaking with Lla Anderson, the
791
:Massachusetts Pesticide Control Act
792
:says that it can not cause unreasonable
adverse effect to the environment, right?
793
:And the environment is going to
involve not just the wildlife, but
794
:the individuals and everything else.
795
:Everybody.
796
:That's correct.
797
:So in essence, it's violating that.
798
:James Joyce II: Yeah, that's correct.
799
:It absolutely is.
800
:And so I look at you know, I'm
so I look at it also from the
801
:perspective of wildlife habitat.
802
:So we don't want to adversely affect
the wildlife, but there are, so they all
803
:live in wildlife habitats and some of
these wildlife habitats are all priority
804
:habitats, especially in Massachusetts.
805
:And you can look at this state by state
and it all runs pretty much the same way.
806
:So you want to make sure that, yeah,
you're not harming the wildlife,
807
:but you want to make sure that
you're not allowing this material
808
:to get into wildlife habitats.
809
:So streams, rivers.
810
:Bordering vegetated wetland, uh, you
know, any of that, uh, any of that,
811
:any of those resource areas, you don't
want to allow that material to have an
812
:opportunity to migrate into those areas.
813
:Because as you know the half life on this
on this material and second generation
814
:materials fairly long So it will last in
the environment for for for quite a while.
815
:we have a study So Michelle, there's
one thing that on this IPM document.
816
:There's quite a bit of research
documentation that's in that IPM
817
:document, including a study that was
done over in Europe on anticoagulant
818
:rodenticides in water and how long it
lasts and the implications of that.
819
:It was provided to me, actually provided
to me by some marine biologists up
820
:at, uh, one of the wildlife refuges
up here in eastern Massachusetts.
821
:So Parker Riven National Wildlife Refuge.
822
:And, uh, again, that's pretty, it's pretty
interesting reading about what happens
823
:with this material that people think that.
824
:It just dissipates in water,
but that's not really the case.
825
:And it does show up in fish and, and,
and these different microorganisms.
826
:So yeah, definitely does.
827
:DrG: On the legal aspect as well,
something that, that is not common sense
828
:is why they are allowed when they are
killing endangered species that are
829
:protected by the endangered species act.
830
:James Joyce II: You know, that's always
the big, the big argument is that.
831
:We have, the United States Fish
and Wildlife has a list, all the
832
:listed species in the country.
833
:They have them by state,
and they also classify them.
834
:In Massachusetts, we have our own.
835
:We have our own Massachusetts Endangered
Species Act, and we have the, and we
836
:have a Department of Mass in the Mass
Fishing Game, which is the Natural
837
:History and Endangered Species Program.
838
:And we have state listed birds and, you
know, birds, plants, reptiles, animals,
839
:we have them in this, in this act.
840
:And if you look at bald
eagles, for instance.
841
:Bald eagles and peregrine falcons,
but I'll use bald eagles specifically
842
:because we've had rodenticide deaths
in bald eagles That's listed as a spurt
843
:of special concern It falls under the
massachusetts endangered species act
844
:and we actually have people who are
part of the pest control industry Who
845
:say that we have no listed species in
massachusetts, which is just absolutely
846
:incorrect and so again it's let's
Let's all work with the facts instead
847
:of working by What fits our agendas?
848
:Let's work with the facts,
you know, um, so yeah
849
:DrG: a lot of misinformation happening.
850
:James Joyce II: Yeah, I've got nesting
peregrine falcons that are right over
851
:here in my in my town and they they nest
in an area That's it's a priority habitat
852
:of rare species and not, A couple of
hundred feet away We've got bait boxes
853
:bait stations around that now not that
peregrine falcons are typically rodent
854
:eaters But they're opportunists and we
have photographs of them eating rats
855
:and that kind of thing So but that just
the fact that you know if you're If you,
856
:if you want to make an argument, base
it on the facts, and, and I don't think
857
:that you should be able, I don't think
you should be trying to move your, move
858
:your argument based upon misinformation.
859
:I just don't think so, I don't think
it's right, and I think there's a
860
:lot of it going on on my opinion.
861
:DrG: No, absolutely,
I, I completely agree.
862
:So I guess, in, in closing, I want
to know, what was your experience
863
:with the Animal Law Clinic?
864
:James Joyce II: Well, so that
is an interesting, that's an
865
:interesting how that came about.
866
:So back in the beginning of 2023, I
was asked if I would be interested in
867
:talking with, uh, Lisa Owens Vianney
out at Raptors are the Solution
868
:about perhaps putting a statewide
initiative into Massachusetts.
869
:What would that coalition look
like if we were going to do it?
870
:And In an April of 2023, I assembled
a, a cross functional group.
871
:There were 19 of us that were
on the zoom call with, with
872
:Lisa, and she went through.
873
:Her entire, um, presentation
on how California approached
874
:this problem that they had.
875
:What worked?
876
:What did they try to do legislatively?
877
:And then, what did they
ultimately do with litigation?
878
:And how did that work?
879
:And if we were going to try that
in the state of Massachusetts,
880
:what would that look like for us?
881
:And one of the comments that came out on
that was to, to talk with, to reach out
882
:to and talk with various law clinics.
883
:Harvard Law, the Animal Law Clinic at
Harvard Law, was one of the clinics
884
:that was suggested As by the group, and
so when I compiled all the information
885
:into an outbrief, I had that down as one
of the action items, and it was Marci
886
:Cemenska, who reached out to Harvard Law.
887
:But
888
:that, that's how it happened, um, and it,
it, it really came out of, it's funny,
889
:because the wildlife veterinarians that
were on that call, um, they had some
890
:experience with that and they actually
were the ones that, that suggested it.
891
:And then, you know, Marcy got that
into the law clinic and then she, you
892
:know, then she reached out to myself
and, and my wife Patty and, and then
893
:we got on board and then we got.
894
:Of course, then we got our wildlife
rehabbers on board too, which
895
:that's where all the power is.
896
:DrG: Yeah.
897
:And in reading the petition, they did
a really good job at explaining the
898
:problem and, you know, laying out who
the, the individuals involved were, um,
899
:you know, all the petitioners and then
kind of not just saying this is a problem,
900
:but there are solutions out there.
901
:James Joyce II: Correct.
902
:Correct.
903
:There's a, there's a multitude of
solutions out there and, um, we just
904
:have to find a way to get our towns and
cities and residents and kind of, you
905
:know, driving towards that, that common,
common goal or common solution, which,
906
:you know, I always say try something.
907
:There's something, there are things
out there that are effective.
908
:So why not give them a try and do it in
combination with different, different
909
:materials, different, different methods.
910
:Um, we could try it all and you can,
you know, You can pilot programs and
911
:you can implement them, but I mean at
least give it a try instead of Just you
912
:know business as usual and you know,
we'll just uh, we'll just continue
913
:to get on the path that we're going
914
:DrG: Right and with the app we can keep
track if the solutions are working or not
915
:so that we can make changes as we go along
916
:James Joyce II: we definitely can so if
If uh with that app if if we go back and
917
:somebody makes a change and and now we log
that in Uh into the app that they went to
918
:they went to this change Then then we'll
know what it is and we can keep track
919
:of it and we can see how effective it is
920
:DrG: so if any of our listeners want
to get more information about the
921
:organization, are you on social media?
922
:Is there a website?
923
:How can, how can they reach you?
924
:James Joyce II: We are on social media.
925
:We have a, um, a Facebook group and, uh,
it's, um, you can just search Friends
926
:of Horn Pond and, and you'll find us.
927
:Uh, we could add one thing.
928
:So we, we do have a motto.
929
:What we started off with and
it's making, so we call it
930
:making a difference together.
931
:And it really sums up
exactly what we're all about.
932
:Um, And it really is collaboration and,
uh, you know, collaboration and action.
933
:DrG: I love that because you know,
everything that we do, like with
934
:my organization, my practice,
everything's about collaboration, right?
935
:No one group can do everything by
themselves and all different types
936
:bring different things to the table.
937
:James Joyce II: It, it's exactly right.
938
:And you know, in my, in my past life,
that was, that was the way in my
939
:entire career, how, how things worked.
940
:Um, and it had to be a collaborative
effort, cross functional,
941
:which is exactly what this is.
942
:Our, our non profit is exactly that.
943
:But this coalition that we've
built, Um, is is exactly based on
944
:that foundation, collaboration,
action, partnerships, science.
945
:It's it's it all rolls together.
946
:DrG: Excellent.
947
:Well, thank you so much for spending
this time and sharing your knowledge
948
:And thank you for everything that
you're doing for the birds and for
949
:your voice in this rodenticide issue
950
:James Joyce II: Thank you,
Michelle, been a pleasure,