Episode 74

full
Published on:

30th Oct 2024

2023 ALDF State Animal Protection Ranking Report with guest Kathleen Wood, Esq.

Kathleen Wood, Senior Staff Attorney for The Animal Legal Defense Fund (aldf.org), joins Dr. G to discuss the 2023 ALDF State Animal Protection Ranking Report. Learn about the purpose and the information found on this document, and how it can help promote better animal protection laws in every state.

You can help us spread the word and protect more animals from cruelty and neglect by liking, rating, and sharing the podcast. Together we can make a difference in the lives of animals everywhere.

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Transcript
DrG:

Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today's guest is Kathleen

Wood, senior staff attorney for

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the Animal Legal Defense Fund.

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Thank you so much for being here

and welcome to the Junction.

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Kathleen Wood: Thank you

so much for having me.

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DrG: So can you start by letting our

audience know who you are and what

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brought you to where you are today?

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Kathleen Wood: Sure.

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So as you mentioned, my

name is Kathleen Wood.

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I, um, started out actually

studying art history at UCLA and was

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volunteering at a shelter that was

a last stop shelter for animals who

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were having a hard time being adopted.

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And a lot of time that was because

of abuse because they had physical

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or behavioral issues as a result.

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And that really inspired me to go into the

area of animal rights and animal welfare.

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I had already been thinking about going

to law school and started researching the

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field of animal law and discovered this

entire area of really passionate people.

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Um, and just decided that's, that's

what I wanted to do with my life.

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So, um, during law school, I worked

with the Animal Welfare Institute

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and the Animal Legal Defense Fund.

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And then as soon as I graduated, I came

to work for the Animal Legal Defense

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Fund and I've been here ever since.

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DrG: I think it's really amazing that

a lot of other guests that I have

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had, they have started with completely

different things in their life, right?

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And then they have had that aha moment

in animal welfare that has guided them to

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like, what has become their true passion.

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So what we're here to discuss is

this really cool document that is

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the animal protection ranking report,

and you have a big part in it.

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So how can you explain to our

audience what this report is?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

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Um, so this Since 2006, the Animal

Legal Defense Fund has been publishing

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this report, and it ranks each state

and territory's animal protection

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laws, and compares the various

strengths and weaknesses of them.

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And so I took over the report in 2017,

and did my first overhaul of the contents

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and scoring metrics the next year in

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overhaul in, uh, for our 2023 rankings.

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So each year, usually in January or

February, we'll publish the report and

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it goes through all the legislation

that's been passed the previous year

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and redoes our ranking, and we publish

a comprehensive report that goes into

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detail about our methodology, what

has changed, what states have improved,

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and, uh, kind of who is ranking where in

terms of their animal protection laws.

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DrG: So based on this methodology,

what categories are states

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ranked or, or graded on?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, um, so we

have 20 different categories,

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and these correspond to what

we call our compendiums.

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So every state and territory has their own

compendium that we maintain separately.

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That's also available on our website.

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And that is essentially just a very long

document that has the full text of all

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of the animal protection laws divided

into these 20 different categories.

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And so they're divided

into substantive crimes.

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So, you know, what are the laws that

prohibit general abuse and neglect, the

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laws that prohibit sexual assault of

animals, animal fighting, and so on, and

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then we also look at laws that provide

procedures for enforcing those crimes,

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so, uh, you know, who can seize an animal

and when, whether the animal can be

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ordered forfeited, before or after the

person's convicted, and then, we also have

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e other laws including, um, reporting

laws, you know, can veterinarians or

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social service workers report suspected

animal cruelty, what can civilians do

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to intervene if they witness animal

cruelty, and so all of those are divided

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into those 20 different categories.

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DrG: So this report, it helps us figure

out what states are doing, are doing

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what, but does it help in any other ways?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, so it helps

to identify what states are doing

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well and also where the gaps are.

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Um, because when you start looking at

it on this macro level, you can very

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clearly see where some major gaps are.

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For example, West Virginia is now the

only state that doesn't have a law

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prohibiting sexual assault of animals.

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so that's a very clear area that we

can target for , future legislation.

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, it also, the report also helps because

it can help direct legislators and

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advocates to particularly strong

laws that can be used as models.

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So if you notice that in your state, uh,

there's You know, there's not really a

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comprehensive law defining what level

of minimum care an animal has to have.

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Um, you know, what kind of shelter

they must be provided with,

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what kind of food, water, etc.

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Then you can look to the laws.

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Um, of the states in our top five,

like Oregon and Maine, which have

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really strong comprehensive laws

addressing animal neglect, and you

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can use those as models when looking,

uh, to improve your own state's laws.

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DrG: Based on the, on the

rankings for last year, what are,

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what are the best five states?

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Kathleen Wood: The top five states

are, uh, Oregon, Maine, Illinois,

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Massachusetts, and Colorado.

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DrG: And what would you

say overall is needed?

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I mean, I imagine that it's like

the majority of the, of the laws

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are strong, but what are the

things that make these states, you

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know, go up and down in rankings?

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Kathleen Wood: So it's really

a huge combination of things.

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So our rankings look at, we

have 76 different questions,

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um, closed ended questions, with

Kind of multiple choice answers.

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They each have a different

point system assigned to them.

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And so for each of the 56 jurisdictions,

the 50 states and 6 inhabited

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territories, we go through and

compare those:

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Um, so there are a lot of

different ways that states can

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go up and down in our rankings.

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DrG: Yeah, well, because I was thinking,

like, you know, We were, we were

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discussing a little bit ago about how

Connecticut made such a huge jump.

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So what does it, was this a state, like

what, what were the changes that they

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went through to have increased so much?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, in 2023,

Connecticut jumped 20 ranks, from

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31st to 11th place, and that's because

they passed a really comprehensive

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bill that did a number of things.

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One, it helped to, close a

loophole that was in their

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sexual assault of animals laws.

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It imposed a mandatory five year

possession ban for people who

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have been convicted of animal

cruelty, um, prohibiting them from

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residing with or owning or possessing

an animal for five years, and it

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also required veterinarians to report

suspected animal cruelty and granted them

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immunity from civil suit for doing that.

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DrG: I was going to say, like, Ohio, it

didn't used to have a strong reporting

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law and several years ago, I actually

had the opportunity to present proponent

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testimony for the reporting law because

it is something that is very important.

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You know, especially not just

in protecting the animals, but

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also protecting people, right?

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That's the whole idea of

the of the cross reporting.

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And I know that Ohio has been

kind of creeping up slowly but

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surely, and it has improved.

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What?

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What has?

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What has Ohio done?

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To get it from where it was that

I think it was in the 40s several

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years ago, up to like now 18.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, and that

cross reporting law that you're

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referring to was a huge part of that.

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Um, so a couple of years ago, they passed

a law that not only required veterinarians

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to report suspected cruelty, but also,

social services workers, because of the

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link between animal cruelty and domestic

violence and child abuse, social service

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workers are kind of uniquely positioned

to be able to witness that animal

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cruelty going on behind closed doors, and

need to be empowered and to report it.

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And Ohio was actually one of the

first states to pass a law requiring

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social service workers to report.

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They've passed a number of other laws,

like, permitting companion animals

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to be included in protection orders.

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And just last year, they passed

a law classifying animal cruelty

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as a offense of violence.

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DrG: One of the things that, looking at

the different categories and such, we have

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about Post conviction possession bans,

and I think that that is something that

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is super important because I work with a

lot of animal hoarding cases, for example,

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and then there will be, they'll either

do one or not do one, but they're not

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very strong, but also I'm thinking about

the case of Indianapolis Animal Services

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that the two employees got fired because

they were trying to do a background check,

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah,

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DrG: it just happened within the

last month, I believe they were

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trying to do background checks to

find for animal cruelty convictions,

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and they were fired because they,

the facility said that it was a

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discriminatory act against adoptions.

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But then I looked, and this is in Indiana,

which has mandatory possession bans.

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Kathleen Wood: So, yeah, they have

possession bans linked to probation, so

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as long as a person's on probation, um,

then they have a possession ban, yeah.

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DrG: Yeah, so I thought that it was kind

of, kind of interesting that they have,

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they have something saying that people,

you know, people may have possession

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bans, but then these employees were

fired because they, trying to uphold it.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

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No, that's, that is very interesting.

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We actually have our model laws that

are available on our website that, uh, I

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helped to draft and one of the provisions

is to make available a list of people with

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possession bans, um, to, agencies that

Like animal shelters that are adopting

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out animals, um, to ensure that there

is some kind of cross checking in place.

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Um, you know, this wouldn't be any

kind of public registry that's posted

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online, but just those, uh, you know,

pet stores and shelters that have animals

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for adoption to make sure that, um,

we can make sure that these possession

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bans aren't completely toothless,

that they, they're being enforced.

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DrG: Right.

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And I think, you know, like there may

be some people out there that don't

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necessarily care about the animals, but

they do care about what happens to people.

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And I feel like some of these stronger

laws are going to benefit the link, right?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, um, so,

historically, you know, the link has

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been used to kind of get people to care.

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Um, if, you know, saying, well, if

you don't care about the animals

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in the home, um, at least you

should care about the people.

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And.

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You know, in a sense,

yes, that that is true.

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It does get people to

care about these issues.

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Um, but I think the link is so much

more important because of the other ways

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that it intersects with animal cruelty.

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So, um, for example, it helps to explain

why people abuse animals because it's

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the same underlying factors that go into

other antisocial behaviors like domestic

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violence, like harm against humans.

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Um, so it's important for us to look

at the link through that lens because.

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We, ideally, the criminal justice

system would be used to address those

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underlying issues, and prevent people

from then committing animal cruelty

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or committing other antisocial acts.

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DrG: I think that that's one

of the important parts as far

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as with the cross reporting.

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And one of the reasons why I wanted

proponent to give proponent testimony was

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the fact that sometimes as veterinarians

we are the first ones to see abuse, right?

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Like the humans being abused,

the children abuse or the elderly

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abuse is not necessarily seen,

but we can find that animal abuse

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and then do something about it.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, uh, animal cruelty is now being

tracked by the FBI and the National

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Incident Based Reporting System, um,

NIBRS, and because of that, we can

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see that the vast majority of animal

cruelty is going on in the home, um,

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and it's not being witnessed by a

lot of outsiders, so veterinarians

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are uniquely positioned to be able to

identify those signs and symptoms of

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animal cruelty, and as a result, um, you

know, are uniquely positioned to also

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witness overlapping forms of violence,

domestic violence, familial violence,

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um, You know, there was one study that

said that the three professions most

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likely to encounter battered women were

hairdressers, dentists, and veterinarians.

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DrG: That is really interesting.

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And I can see it because those

are going to be the, yeah, the

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places where they're going to go.

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And, and even, I, I think of them

as professions that are used to

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talking to people and being almost

like, Like little therapists for that

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Kathleen Wood: exactly that you

know, get people talking about their,

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their health, their one health, the

health of and safety of the home.

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Absolutely.

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DrG: So one of the categories that

I don't think a lot of people are

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familiar with is the bond and forfeit.

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Yeah, I mean, what that is about

because I think that it is really

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important and I think that there

are some states that are way behind.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

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So this was 1 of the new trends that

we identified last year in our report.

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So bond or forfeit refers

to a legal procedure.

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So, to back up, um, when an animal

is seized pursuant to a cruelty

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investigation, they're kind of put

in this legal limbo, because they're

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still technically the property of

the owner, of the defendant who is

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being accused of animal cruelty or

neglect, but they're in the physical

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custody of the local shelter or agency

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that's holding them pending the criminal

investigation and trial, and that can

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go on for months or years at a time.

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And in the meantime, the care for

that animal is really expensive.

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It's not just, you know,

the food, water and shelter.

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It's also veterinary care.

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And depending on how badly the animal

was abused and neglected, that could be

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really extensive surgeries, rehabilitative

care, behavioral rehabilitation.

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And then especially for hoarding

situations like you were talking about.

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You might have hundreds of

animals being seized, and those

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costs add up really quickly.

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And all this time, the defendant

is still the legal owner.

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They should have the

responsibility of financially

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providing for that animal's care.

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So the bond or forfeit mechanism

is designed to reallocate those

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costs where they rightfully

belong with the animal's owner.

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Usually states that in these laws that

a few weeks or a month after the initial

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seizure, there's a, uh, there's a hearing,

and at that hearing, the courts will

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order either the defendant has to post

a bond to cover those costs of care,

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usually for 30 days at a time, and then

it renews up until the point of trial.

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Or if they're unable or unwilling

to pay for the animal's care, then

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they have to forfeit the animal.

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And that means that the shelter can

adopt out the animal, uh, to a new

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loving home and they are no longer

on the hook for those ongoing costs.

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And it also gets the animal out of

the shelter because we know that,

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you know, even in the best, most

well resourced shelter, uh, it's

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going to be psychologically hard and

re traumatizing for an animal to be

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there for months or years at a time.

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DrG: I was talking to

one of my friends from H.

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S.

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U.

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S.

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About a case that they had several

years ago where these animals were

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stuck in limbo for like two years

because the state that they were,

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uh, that they seized the animals

from did not have this kind of law.

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So these animals and

there were pregnant dogs.

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There were animals that were born

in while they were in the shelter.

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And As you say, like shelters, they,

the majority of them do their best, but

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it's not a long term place for animals.

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Right.

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It's, it's supposed to be

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Kathleen Wood: designed to be short term.

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Absolutely.

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DrG: Yeah.

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So that's one of the things that I worry

about is just not the, not the physical

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health, but the mental health of these

animals while they're in captivity.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, absolutely.

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DrG: So the other thing

is protection orders.

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That's something that I think has,

we've been talking about more and more

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as far as including because animals.

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are seen as property.

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So realistically, whoever claims to

be the owner, whoever is spending the

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money or whoever is doing whatever

is the one that legally would

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be allowed to keep the property.

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But we are learning to

move from that, right?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, so there are, I

believe, 40 states now that explicitly

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allow courts to order animals to

be included in protection orders.

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And about half of those, including

Ohio, it's limited to just companion

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animals, which is unfortunate because

You know, there are plenty of cases of

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people being attached to their farmed

animals or even abusers threatening to

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harm farmed animals as a way to control

the, the human victim in their life.

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So, um, we would really love to see

that be expanded to all species.

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But.

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At the very least, in those 40 states,

you can, when petitioning for a domestic

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violence protection order, include

your animal so that you can be awarded

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sole custody of the animal and prevent

the abuser from, from harming them.

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But then there's the other

issue of where do you go?

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There's most shelters, most domestic

violence shelters don't accept

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animals that aren't service animals.

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And that fortunately is changing,

but it's, it's a really slow process.

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DrG: I guess at least though, having

the, the ability to have a protection

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order may encourage somebody to

leave knowing that legally the

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animal will not be sent back, right?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, because, well we

know that about a third to a half of women

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in DV situations report having delayed

their escape out of fear for their animal.

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That's one of the most common

kind of psychological means of

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coercion in a domestic violence

relationship is, you know, if you

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leave me, I'm going to kill your dog.

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DrG: And speaking of psychological

evaluations, that's another thing

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that I, that you guys measure, right,

as category, like the places that

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require psychological evaluations.

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Yeah.

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I think about the importance of

it in like hoarding cases again,

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just how they're not being managed

properly because they're given fees.

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They're given fines.

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The animals are being taken away,

but nothing is being done to

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prevent this from happening again.

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And then just people in general that

may be intentionally causing harm,

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like they're not being evaluated.

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And so after they serve their

time, they're allowed to go

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out and, and do it again.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

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And there are so many psychological

disorders that have been linked to animal

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cruelty, some of them explicitly, you

know, animal cruelty is one of the DSM 5's

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, symptoms of a conduct disorder, which

is a behavioral disorder in juveniles.

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Um, it's also included in, um, you

know, sexual assault of animals.

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It's included in, uh, paraphilia disorder.

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There are a number of different

diagnostic tools that will specifically

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identify animal cruelty as one

of the symptoms of that disorder.

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Psychological evaluations are so important

because they can help to identify

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underlying factors that went into the

animal cruelty offense, um, whether that

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is a specific disorder, um, substance

abuse, or anything like that, and that

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information can help the court tailor

a sentence to specifically address

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underlying causes, and hopefully prevent

the person from harming the animal.

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animal in the future or

even a human in the future.

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DrG: Yeah, I think about how, you

know, prisons and jails should be

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about rehabilitation because the

majority of these individuals are

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eventually going to be let out.

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Kathleen Wood: Oh, absolutely.

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Especially with animal cruelty.

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Um, you know, it's such

a low level offense.

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You have to be operating

under the assumption that

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they're going to be released.

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Um, you know, and so we want to make

sure that when people are released

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into society, they're less likely,

not more likely to, to recidivate.

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DrG: Yeah, I worked with a case recently

where a man beat his dog with a rock,

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killed it, and he was, uh, charged

with felony animal cruelty, but he

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just got three months in prison, right?

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Because the, here in Ohio, the most

that they can get anyway is 12 months,

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but he only got three months in

prison, and there is, there was no

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psychological evaluation, there was no

intention to rehabilitate or anything.

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So he's going to have a possession

ban, I want to say, for three years.

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So, first of all, who is

enforcing that possession ban?

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And, you know, who is protecting

other animals and who is

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protecting the people in his life?

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Because this specific individual

had been in prison for seven

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years for assaulting a human.

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So, you know, he came out of jail and

clearly did not was not rehabilitated,

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and then he did this to a dog.

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So, you know, we need to do better.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, and one of the

problems is that we really don't

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have a lot of data on, rehabilitative

efforts for people who have committed

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animal cruelty or even just any kind

of sentencing for animal cruelty.

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We don't have a lot of data showing

what sentences are being, uh, assigned

354

:

to offenders and what the outcome is.

355

:

You know, do those people recidivate is.

356

:

Incarceration, a deterrent, uh,

specific deterrent is, um, you know,

357

:

diversion programs or counseling.

358

:

Are these things actually being

used and are they helping?

359

:

Um, and so I would really love to

have more information on, you know,

360

:

what is actually being used across the

country and then be able to use that

361

:

to help advise courts on what are the

most effective sentences because right

362

:

now we have, we have educated guesses

based on the data that's available

363

:

DrG: We talked about the best five states.

364

:

What are the worst five

states as of last year?

365

:

And what what could they be doing better?

366

:

Kathleen Wood: So the worst five

states were Kentucky, South Carolina,

367

:

Idaho, Alabama, and North Dakota.

368

:

Um, and there, there are a number of

things that they can be doing better.

369

:

One of the most basic things is

the definition of the word animal.

370

:

Um, you know, you would

think that that would be a, a

371

:

pretty, , intuitive definition.

372

:

One, um, but for example, South

Carolina is ranked 47, um, and they

373

:

exclude invertebrates, so octopi, and

their, their primary animal cruelty law

374

:

excludes all poultry, all fowl, birds.

375

:

Um, so they're just simply not

protected under animal cruelty laws.

376

:

And then, for example, Kentucky excludes

all cold blooded animals, um, which

377

:

is just a huge category of animals

that are just simply not protected.

378

:

Uh, and so that's one of the most

basic ways, um, they could work

379

:

to expand animal protection laws.

380

:

Um, another big one is what

we've been talking about,

381

:

forfeiture and possession bans.

382

:

So the lowest ranked state, North

Dakota, doesn't have a law requiring

383

:

animals to be forfeited after the

person's been convicted of cruelty.

384

:

So you could have a person

convicted of torturing their dog.

385

:

And at the end of the trial, the court

orders the dog to go back to that person.

386

:

I mean, I'm, it's completely

within the court's discretion.

387

:

And they don't have any laws specifically

addressing possession bans, uh, so, you

388

:

know, theoretically, yes, the court could

order a possession ban as a condition

389

:

of probation, but once probation ends,

which is usually, you know, max two

390

:

years, three years, um, after that,

there's, there's no way to impose a ban

391

:

on, um, residing with or owning animals.

392

:

DrG: So not to pick on West Virginia, but.

393

:

Since they don't have, uh, laws against

sexual assault against animals, why

394

:

are they not as, you know, that low?

395

:

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, um,

that's a great question.

396

:

I, so West Virginia, yes, that is

a huge gap in terms of their laws.

397

:

Um, you know, they are the only state

and one of three, there's two territories

398

:

that don't have laws prohibiting

sexual assault of animals, Northern

399

:

Mariana Islands and American Samoa.

400

:

So one of three jurisdictions

in the entire U.

401

:

S.

402

:

that, that doesn't prohibit that.

403

:

So you would expect them to be very

low, but you also have to consider

404

:

the fact that we evaluate so many

different categories of animal

405

:

protection laws in our rankings.

406

:

So West Virginia does have some other

protections in their laws that help to

407

:

compensate for their utter lack of laws

prohibiting sexual assault of animals.

408

:

For example, they do have mandatory

possession bans for any species

409

:

that include any species of animals.

410

:

They also have a law addressing cross

reporting that's requires elder abuse

411

:

and child abuse to be reported, um,

that also requires social services to

412

:

report suspected animal cruelty and

provides immunity to them for doing so.

413

:

So even though they have this huge

gap in their laws when it comes

414

:

to prohibiting sexual assault of

animals, they, they have some other,

415

:

uh, provisions that help compensate

that and help to pad their score.

416

:

DrG: So come on West Virginia, you have

one law and then you can make a huge jump.

417

:

You can be so good.

418

:

Um, I'm, I'm looking at the, at

the report and it says about that

419

:

a new category that was added was

the emergency rescue and relief.

420

:

So what is that about?

421

:

Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

422

:

So previously we had something similar.

423

:

We had a category that we call dogs and

hot cars, which was a little bit of a

424

:

misnomer, but it, you know, included what

we call good Samaritan laws that allow

425

:

people to rescue animals, um, from, you

know, Vehicles, unattended vehicles.

426

:

So if you're at the mall and you see

a dog sitting in a car and it's, you

427

:

know, 80 degrees outside and the dog

is in serious distress, um, in those

428

:

14 states, you can call the police and

then break in and rescue the animal.

429

:

And there are several other

states that have laws that allow

430

:

civilians to intervene in cruelty

and neglect situations outside

431

:

of that very narrow category.

432

:

So, for example, in Ohio, uh, there's

a law which states that, um, if you

433

:

witness an animal being neglected,

I think it's 12 hours, um, you know,

434

:

without being provided food, water, care.

435

:

Um, you can.

436

:

Enter upon somebody's property and provide

the animal with the necessary care.

437

:

And so those kinds of laws are

now all encompassed in that

438

:

emergency rescue category.

439

:

DrG: Something that I think it's

relatively new and that I would love to

440

:

see everywhere, but it's starting to grow

is the courtroom animal advocate program.

441

:

So can you talk a little bit about that?

442

:

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, um, so Courtroom

Animal Advocate Program, or CAAP, it's

443

:

laws that allow a third party advocate to

be present in the courtroom, specifically

444

:

advocating for the animal's interests

or for the interests of justice.

445

:

Um, and so currently only two

states have these CAAP laws, um,

446

:

and that's Connecticut and Maine.

447

:

So Connecticut passed their law in

:

448

:

And that came out of a really

heartbreaking case in which a man

449

:

separated from his girlfriend after

attempting to strangle her, so this was

450

:

a link related case, um, she ended up

giving Desmond to a shelter, um, because

451

:

she was having trouble finding housing,

I believe, with her dog, and he went

452

:

to the shelter and adopted Desmond.

453

:

Kept him locked in the bathroom, um,

for, you know, all hours of the day.

454

:

He fed him one cup of rice per day.

455

:

And during the day he was litigating

child custody against his ex girlfriend

456

:

in the courts and coming home and

beating Desmond out of his rage at night.

457

:

Um, and eventually he did

strangle and kill Desmond.

458

:

And what really gripped people's

attention was that he was Awarded

459

:

a diversion program that he wasn't

technically eligible for, um, because

460

:

he had already gotten diversion

for strangling his girlfriend.

461

:

Um, and so if there had been somebody

in that courtroom advocating for

462

:

Desmond's interests, you know,

they might have pointed out

463

:

that this person isn't actually

eligible for diversion for this

464

:

crime, and gotten a different result.

465

:

So that case led to the first ever

Courtroom Animal Advocate Program,

466

:

and It's been hugely successful.

467

:

So it's, uh, lawyers and

supervised law students.

468

:

There's a program through the University

of Connecticut where, um, law students

469

:

can participate in a clinic and help the

court to identify issues facing those

470

:

animals, um, that are still in custody

and be a voice for the animals who

471

:

have, who are unfortunately deceased.

472

:

So one example that arose, I think, in

:

473

:

and, um, one of the dogs who had been

seized was pregnant and gave birth to

474

:

a litter of puppies while in custody.

475

:

And the owner demanded those

puppies back because they weren't

476

:

part of the search warrant.

477

:

Um, and he said, you know, look,

these puppies have never been abused.

478

:

You've no right to hold my property.

479

:

Um, and they were particularly valuable

because they were from this, you

480

:

know, esteemed dogfighting bloodline.

481

:

And, The advocate was able to successfully

argue, um, for those puppies and argue

482

:

that they should not be returned to

their owner, that they, you know, did

483

:

belong in, properly in custody, and,

um, eventually they were adopted out,

484

:

um, But it wasn't anyone's job other

than the advocate to really advocate

485

:

for them because they weren't the

victims of the animal cruelty crime.

486

:

So it wasn't really the prosecutor

or the state's job to be in

487

:

court advocating for them.

488

:

And so that's why it's so important

to have that third party voice

489

:

in the courtroom for those, you

know, for those animals that would

490

:

otherwise fall through the cracks.

491

:

DrG: Yeah, I think it's important, and

I hope that more states start picking

492

:

up on it, because it's the same as

like a child advocate, right, in court,

493

:

like we're looking, you have somebody

that knows about that, that victim or

494

:

potential victim to advocate for them,

because sometimes I also think that

495

:

sometimes attorneys and prosecutors

lose sight of what's happening, right,

496

:

like they just want to close a case, or

they just want to You know, it is a make

497

:

deals and everything else that may not

be in the best interest of the animal.

498

:

So having somebody that's there just for

that animal can make a huge difference.

499

:

Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

500

:

And I mean, if you have a prosecutor who

is hugely passionate about animal issues.

501

:

You know, they might be going above

and beyond their job description

502

:

to help those animal victims.

503

:

Like, I'm not discounting the

many prosecutors who are out there

504

:

fighting for animal victims every day.

505

:

Um, but it's not technically their job.

506

:

Their job is to advocate for the interests

of justice and society generally.

507

:

Um, you know, they're, they're

representing the people, literally,

508

:

they, they're for the people.

509

:

So, you know, it's important that

we have somebody who's job it is

510

:

to speak for animals and to make

sure that the, that person can get

511

:

their voice heard in the courtroom.

512

:

So these advocates can help to summarize,

you know, what's going on with the

513

:

animals, what their current conditions

are, and they can also, provide victim

514

:

impact statements on sentencing,

um, which is another huge issue that

515

:

I know you're very familiar with.

516

:

I think you've written a victim impact

statement for an animal victim in the

517

:

past, um, and because animals can't

speak for themselves, you know, that's

518

:

why we need to have people like you and

have, like, advocates who can provide,

519

:

be that voice in the legal system.

520

:

DrG: Yeah, I really hope that it, that

it takes on, and I think with more animal

521

:

law programs, that maybe we're, we're

going to start seeing a change on that, so

522

:

that animals can have their voice heard.

523

:

So ag gag laws, I don't think that

a lot of people understand what these

524

:

things are because to me personally, I

thought that this was common sense that

525

:

somebody seeing animal cruelty could

report it, but that's not really the case.

526

:

So can you explain to our

audience what an ag gag law is?

527

:

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, so an ag

gag law is kind of a nickname

528

:

for anti whistleblower laws.

529

:

There are a handful of states that

have passed these laws that will

530

:

specifically prohibit somebody who is

working in an agricultural industry,

531

:

who witnesses animal cruelty from

reporting that animal cruelty.

532

:

Um, which is, a number of these laws

have been challenged by the Animal Legal

533

:

Defense Fund and other coalition partners

and have been found to be unconstitutional

534

:

violations of the freedom of speech.

535

:

Um, so workers, you know, as part of

their First Amendment rights, they

536

:

have the ability to report crimes

that they're witnessing in their work

537

:

environment, um, and, these laws are

trying to prevent whistleblowers.

538

:

DrG: Yeah, and it just, again,

like, it doesn't make sense.

539

:

Like, you're witnessing somebody

breaking the law, you would think

540

:

that you would get in trouble if you

don't report it, but it's opposite.

541

:

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, exactly.

542

:

Um, you know, and they're often kind

of shrouded in these, um, You know,

543

:

privacy concerns or industry secrets.

544

:

We can't, we can't have our workers

disclosing our industry secrets.

545

:

Well, if your industry secrets are

breaking the law, um, then you don't

546

:

have any right to, to tell somebody

that, that they can't report you.

547

:

So there was actually one state in

which they passed a law requiring,

548

:

uh, whistleblowers to report suspected

animal cruelty within the first 24 hours.

549

:

which sounds great, um, but if you think

about it, it sometimes takes months of

550

:

gathering undercover footage to build

a case because you have to be able to

551

:

demonstrate that it's a policy of the

corporation, um, and it's not just

552

:

a one off employee and, uh, so that

law was actually intended to target

553

:

undercover investigators from building

cases against these larger corporations.

554

:

I

555

:

DrG: see.

556

:

So then they would have to like say

immediately what they were seeing and

557

:

then the the organization or whatever

would have a chance to do something.

558

:

Kathleen Wood: Then they would

just say, Oh, well, you know,

559

:

that was a one off situation.

560

:

That was just this one

bad apple, bad actor.

561

:

Um, and we fired this employee

and now everything's okay.

562

:

Uh, when in reality, it might be an

ongoing systematic abuse, or it might be

563

:

the policy of the corporation that the

workers abuse the animals in this way.

564

:

DrG: So can the rankings help

states improve or see what they can

565

:

improve and get information from

other states on how to do better?

566

:

Kathleen Wood: Absolutely.

567

:

Um, that's, you know, one of the

primary goals of this entire report

568

:

is to help states see where the gaps

are in their laws, um, and then also

569

:

to highlight those states that are

doing well and can serve as examples.

570

:

Um, so if Folks listening, go to our

website, there's an interactive map

571

:

and you can click on your state and

download the compendium that I was

572

:

talking about earlier, which is the full

text of all the laws that are divided

573

:

into those 20 different categories.

574

:

Um, and you can kind of skim through

and see what You know, here's where

575

:

my law is particularly strong.

576

:

Here's where we simply don't

have any law addressing cross

577

:

reporting or veterinary reporting.

578

:

And you can see very clearly where

the gaps are, and then look to

579

:

some of the higher ranking states

to see where models can be found.

580

:

DrG: And does the Animal Legal Defense

Fund provide resources like directly

581

:

or work with organizations and

advocates to help improve these laws?

582

:

Kathleen Wood: Absolutely.

583

:

Yeah.

584

:

Um, people are always

welcome to contact me.

585

:

I can provide, so my email

address is kmwood at ALDF.

586

:

org.

587

:

Uh, but I work with advocates and

legislators and, you know, other, and just

588

:

members of the public, uh, to help you.

589

:

I can provide a list of, you know, here's

where your state is doing particularly

590

:

well, here's where they could need, um,

additional help, here are some ideas, um,

591

:

and help point to some model legislation

that would, um, improve those states laws.

592

:

DrG: Excellent.

593

:

Well, thank you so much for spending

the time and explaining all of this.

594

:

It's really important because we talk

about, you know, as veterinarians, for

595

:

instance, like helping the individual

animals, but to actually affect change,

596

:

we have to make changes in the laws.

597

:

So whether we like politics or not,

whether we like the law or not, we

598

:

have to kind of get involved to, to

make changes that are actually going

599

:

to help protect animals and society.

600

:

Kathleen Wood: Well, I am always

happy to speak with people more,

601

:

um, about the report or about any

issues in your particular state.

602

:

Um, so please do feel free to

contact me and, um, thank you

603

:

so much for, for having me.

604

:

I really appreciate it.

605

:

DrG: Awesome.

606

:

Well, yes, thank you for all the

information that you have given us

607

:

and for everybody who's listening.

608

:

Thank you for listening

and thank you for caring.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

Profile picture for Alba Gonzalez

Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.