Episode 28

full
Published on:

12th Oct 2023

Puppy Mills with guest Shalimar Oliver

Puppy mills are facilities in which dogs suffer in mass to produce puppies for sale. If you purchase a puppy from a pet store, there is a risk that it is coming from a puppy mill.

But what are puppy mills? Who regulates them? How can consumers protect themselves?

Shalimar Oliver, Animal Crimes Manager from the Humane Society of the United States, joins us again to discuss these and other questions regarding this form of "legalized cruelty".

Puppy mills only exist to make money, so it is within our power as consumers to shut them down by stopping demand. Learn more about puppy mills and how the HSUS Puppy Mills campaign is working to help these dogs and protect the community in this episode.

If you find this episode helpful and educational, help us spread the word by rating, liking and sharing with your friends and family. Together we make a difference for animals.

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Transcript
DrG:

Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today we have a repeat guest

from the Humane Society of the

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United States, Shalimar Oliver.

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Welcome back, Shal.

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So happy to have you here.

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Shalimar Oliver: Yep,

good to see you as always.

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DrG: So you don't need a ton of

introduction because you were here

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before and you gave us the rundown on

everything about you, but you want to give

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people just an idea of what your job is

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currently at HSUS.

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Shalimar Oliver: Yes.

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Um, I'm one of our animal crimes

managers for the rescue team with HSUS.

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And so in our roles and functions, we

work directly with different enforcement

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officials, the local state federal levels,

um, basically to help them with their

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animal crimes cases and kind of just.

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Ashton, how we can help them

either provide some resources, any

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consultation or case guidance all

the way up to like those full scale

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deployments that you yourself have

been a part of with us at times.

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So, uh, any way that we can help support

the work they're doing with animals.

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So,

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DrG: and that's what we kind

of talked about last time was

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about the large scale cases.

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And this topic kind of somewhat goes

along with that because we're going

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to be talking about puppy mills.

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Which I hate puppy mills and we're going

to go into all the reasons why, why I hate

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puppy mills and why they should not exist.

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But I think that, you know,

we're here to educate people.

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So, and I don't think that, that

most, most members of the community

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have a good understanding about

what a puppy mill actually is.

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So do you want to tell

people what is a puppy mill?

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Shalimar Oliver: Yeah, so, I mean, the

puppy mode, there's no finite definition,

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like, there's nothing that you could

look up, you know, specifically in a

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dictionary, but what we kind of describe

them as are these large scale breeding

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operations where basically you think

of it's these You know, quantity versus

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quality of the dog where the focus is

kind of on supplying and demand, and

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it's more of a business for profit.

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And so in these conditions, you see

the quantity exceed the quality.

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So therefore, in producing, pumping

out all these puppies will all

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of these breeder dogs, you see

the conditions and the welfare

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conditions of the dogs just decline.

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So, um, not just environmental

issues, but health issues as well.

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And so, you know, it

can be based anywhere.

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There's people that have this

kind of assumption of, you know.

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Location wise, what it should look

like geographically where they should

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be, but at the end of the day, it

could be, you know, in a basement.

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It could be on a farm.

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It could be in a warehouse situation.

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So there's no real, um, you know,

location that specifically that

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these operations can be set up.

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DrG: And people, you know, we think about

also the term as far as backyard breeders,

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and there's a little bit of a difference

between backyard breeders and puppy mills.

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So what would those differences be?

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Shalimar Oliver: They can fall under

like that same category, right?

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Because they're they're all breeding.

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Um, but, you know, with the backyard

breeding operation population wise,

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certainly, you might see something

smaller, um, but you're going to

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see, like, more of a disregard.

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You can also these are some of the

dogs or breeds rather that we see

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flooding our local shelters and, um.

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That in itself too, uh, as a back, as

backyard breeders, they're out to make

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kind of the quick buck, uh, versus your

larger scale operations that they're

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dealing with a lot more money at hand too.

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Um, but yeah, the conditions, the

breeds, um, they can still, again, fall

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under the umbrella of this breeding

operation, but the, uh, there's a lot

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more kind of disregard and, uh, it

is a little bit of, can be a smaller

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scale situation, so it depends.

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DrG: So at a federal level, the Animal

Welfare Act determines the conditions

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in which these high volume breeders

are supposed to have these animals

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because they're considered agriculture.

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Um, so can you talk about like

the regulation of these puppy

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mills, uh, through the government?

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Shalimar Oliver: Yeah, I mean,

the AWA, these, it's basic, right?

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It's, you know, bare

minimum standards of care.

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And when we say bare,

it's, it's, you know.

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Uh, just bones.

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There's a lot more that could be

built off those guidelines, but,

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you know, uh, we've got something,

something's better than nothing.

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And so the a w a with those guidelines,

um, federally speaking, this is a

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regulation through the U ss d A.

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So if somebody is breeding, let's say I'm

a dog breeder, um, there's requirements

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that I have to meet in order to be

required to have a federal license.

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So I have to have more than five

breeding females that I'm using

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and sell sight unseen, sell pet

stores and things like that.

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So then the USDA says, well,

you need a federal license.

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Um, but, you know, again, that in

itself isn't a lot and, you know,

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you have your, you have to meet the

inspection requirements when they

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come out to inspect the facility.

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Uh, but we know, you know, unfortunately,

it's not happening as often as we'd like.

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We know that resources are also thin.

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Um.

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And so the inspections aren't

happening as often as they should.

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And then if there's violations, how

are they being noted and documented?

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And are they being reported

to law enforcement?

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Unfortunately, not often, not

as often as they should be.

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And so it's oversight.

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We're glad there's a layer of

oversight and regulation, but

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is it, you know, Adequate?

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Not yet, not yet, but it's something.

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Um, and so that's the, the federal

layer through the USDA, um, if

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I have to get that license, so.

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DrG: Yeah, one of the issues that I

have seen with that is, uh, for, for

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example, there was a, There was a breeder

that was cited by the USDA because they

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had a dog that was very, very sick.

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So they told them that they

needed to remove that dog

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from their breeding operation.

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So all they did was they got rid of

the dog and they gave it to a rescue.

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And then the dog eventually

died because it was so sick.

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But then as far as the USDA, when they

come back, the dog has been removed.

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So in theory.

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They are complying with the

requirements, but it's not a, it's not

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a good deal for, for these animals.

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Um, the other issue that I see as a

veterinarian is that these operations do

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not need to be evaluated too frequently.

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Like some of them are

only about once a year.

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Is that right?

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Shalimar Oliver: Yeah.

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It's usually an annual inspection.

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And then after that,

sometimes it can only be.

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It's supposed to be annually, but then

what we've seen in history with records

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is sometimes it goes longer than that

and might actually wait until there

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is a complaint filed with the USDA

and that gets them back out there.

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So, it's not as often as it should be,

but even once a year, you know, you have

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to think about what that looks like.

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That is, you know, one sliver of a

moment in time for all of those dogs.

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And, uh, especially when you're talking

about like an announced inspection.

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You're giving them this heads up

to hide things, you know, granted

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great that makes them kind of, uh,

you know, it hits them in the tail

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end to hurry up and clean things up.

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But then what's what's disappearing and

what's being hidden, given away, you know,

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who knows, and that's that's kind of the

terrifying thing like you just said with

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that example of where did that dog go?

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Um, where do these sick puppies go

that you see a follow up inspection.

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And problem solved because they

complied and the animals are gone,

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but where some situations they

are required to keep records like

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sales records and things like that.

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But, you know, there's

again, a real oversight.

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It might get documented.

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Is there kind of any punishment

reprimand consequence?

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DrG: And are these, are these

inspections available to people that

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want to look into them to the public?

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Shalimar Oliver: Yes, yes.

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Thankfully, one big bonus is

that there is a search tool

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online for anybody to access.

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So you can go onto the USDA's

website and look up under their

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search tool and basically get a hold

of any of the inspection reports.

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You can just type in, it'll, you

know, lead you to the section

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that you can put in the state.

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Um, the city, if you have the name

of the kennel or the person, it's

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an easy search function, but it'll

pull up their inspection reports.

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So you can freely see it's actually,

you know, anyone has access to it.

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Um, and you know, we even obviously

access it too, when we're looking

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at somebody, because a lot of the

times there's things that are noted.

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And no one else has ever been advised

of those issues and those violations,

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so, um, it can be quite terrifying when

you see repeated violations, uh, from

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multiple inspections, uh, spanning over

years of time, what's been done about it?

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You're documenting it, but you're

not doing anything about it.

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DrG: Now, you guys do have

a way of documenting, right?

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You keep track of, like, the, the

hundred worst ones every year.

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So, do you want to tell

people about that report?

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Shalimar Oliver: Yeah, so we, um, HSUS,

we have an incredible team that I've

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worked with, uh, frequently over the

last few years that I've been here.

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We have a Stop Puppy Mills team and

they work on policy, legislation around

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these issues, but we have the fantastic

creators of our Horrible 100 Report.

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And so this is an annual report

that's obviously put out each year

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that essentially is documenting,

it's not the 100 worst in the

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country because we don't know.

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We don't know all of the puppy mills

in this country, but we're going to go

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off of out of the records that we have

access to what are the hundred worst,

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you know, breeding operations that we

have read through and state inspection

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reports, federal inspection reports,

uh, law enforcement reports, other

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information that we've had access to,

and the creators of that report have,

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you know, um, designed this Document to

showcase these horrific breeders that are

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out there to alert the public consumers.

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Anybody that wants to read it to

say, here's all this information

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that's being withheld from you.

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We put it all in this.

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You know, easy to read report that

you can have access to as well.

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And it's, you're blown up over the last 10

years, since it's, um, you know, origin,

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I think, just over 10 years ago, but.

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Um, it's incredible information

to put out there to the public to

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let them know, um, you know, what,

what they're not being told about.

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DrG: And we always think about it

as puppy mills, but does the report

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include just dog operations or does

it include other species as well?

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Shalimar Oliver: If there are

cat breeders in there, it could

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include them too, certainly.

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Um, but for the majority, we're talking

about dog breeders and, um, but yes, it

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can definitely also include if people are

breeding cats as well and kittens, so.

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Um, but yes, so

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DrG: in my opinion, um, I, I think of

puppy mills as exploiter hoarders, right?

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Because they, they somewhat

meet the same requirements.

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An exploiter hoarder is somebody that

does not care about the, the status

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or the wellbeing of the animal.

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And it's just keeping them

because they are getting some kind

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of reward, either their money or

emotional or however it would be.

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And that's kind of how puppy mills are.

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Uh, what are what are going to be the

most common problems that you see in

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these facilities when you go in there?

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Shalimar Oliver: Okay, long answer.

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Um, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Uh, so a lot of these facilities,

if you go off of a lot of the

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inspection reports that we review

as well, whether they be state or

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federal, there's always a commonality.

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So you can see issues varying from housing

and structural issues, um, sanitation, uh,

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especially medical issues, where they've

outlined specific dogs at the facilities

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that, you know, This one has an eye issue.

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This one is limping.

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This one has blood coming from somewhere.

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Um, so a lot of failure to

provide some type of vet care.

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Uh, no documentation,

history, records on the dogs.

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Where are they coming from?

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Where are they going?

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How long have they been here?

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Um, and so we see, you know, besides the

medical, the housing structural, I'm just

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trying to think of Um, the documentation,

sanitation, uh, every time without fail.

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And so it's, it's, uh, the majority of

the reports that we review have these

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issues in them, but it's, you know,

up to the inspector or that agency to

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then advise a local law enforcement

agency, Hey, we were out doing our

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portion and noted ABC violations for us.

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We want to alert you guys because

obviously then can fall under a cruelty

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statute, you know, a state, uh, a

state law that law enforcement is

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required to enforce and investigate.

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DrG: About how often would you

say that, that investigators do

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report these as animal crimes?

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Shalimar Oliver: Sadly, hardly ever,

if at all, and, you know, by the time

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sometimes we've, we've also seen these

cruelty investigations come to fruition,

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but law enforcement sadly has been,

you know, put in a negative light of

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why didn't you do anything sooner?

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Sometimes they had no idea.

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And if you look at, you know, I feel for

certain law enforcement agencies, you've

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got police departments, sheriff's offices,

and they're never trained on animal

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crimes cases, then a big one lands into

their lap, and then they're scrutinized.

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Why?

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Who?

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You know, you didn't do it right.

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And you know, gosh, at least they

did it in the end, but they had

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either little to no knowledge ahead

of time, no training on how to do

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the investigations more thoroughly.

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Um, so a lot of these inspectors

just aren't passing that information

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over to them and doing their due

diligence of, Hey, this isn't right.

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You as the enforcement agency,

can you look into this?

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And again, we're big fans of

networking and working together,

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work together as different agencies.

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Um, HSUS has highlighted that a lot

in the cases we've been doing over the

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last few years with all the different

multiple agencies that have collaborated

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and come together to create an even

better outcome if one were to have

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just tried to do it by themselves.

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So, um, yeah, sadly these inspectors

just aren't passing that information

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over as much as they should be.

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DrG: So you were just talking about,

like, as far as the communication,

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not knowing where they came

from or where they're going.

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So where are most of these

dogs going from puppy mills?

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Shalimar Oliver: Well, besides the

ones that are disappearing, um, you

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know, we're seeing them either they,

sure, they can be sold sight unseen if

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they're shipping them out to a consumer.

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Uh, otherwise we can see them

being purchased to other brokers.

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So other breeders that are kind of

middlemen funneling them back and forth.

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Uh, but a lot of the times too, we're

seeing them sold straightly to all

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these pet stores that are out there.

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DrG: Broker is actually a term that

a lot of people don't understand.

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Most people think that they are

actually where the animals come from.

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So what are brokers and how, how

do they play into this whole thing?

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Shalimar Oliver: Yeah.

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So brokers are kind of, they can

either be, so if I was a broker,

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first off, I'd be required to get

a specific license from the USDA.

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Um, but if I was a broker, it would mean

that I can come to you as a breeder.

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Buy some of your dogs and then I'm

going to go to this other breeder

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and sell the dogs to them or pet

store, sell the dogs to them.

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So that middleman kind of with that

transaction, um, when you see these

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pet stores and you see a van pull

up with 50 puppies inside guarantee

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that's probably the broker that's

dropping them off or the transporter

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for the broker, however that works.

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But your broker is your middleman dealer.

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If you will, they themselves.

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So I can also still be a breeder

as well and breed my own dogs,

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but I'm also going to do the to

and from back and forth middleman

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kind of thing as a broker as well.

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If that makes sense.

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DrG: And the whole online

shipping of animals.

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I mean, like, I don't understand

how people fall for that.

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What are, what are kind of some of

the issues that you see as far as when

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people are purchasing these animals

online and just getting them shipped?

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Shalimar Oliver: Yeah, I mean, it's not

Amazon Prime, you know, it's, it's, you

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have a sentient being that you are having

to transport and, and, And especially when

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you're talking about putting it in a crate

on a plane, unsupervised, not monitored,

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um, it's, I, I think it's terrifying.

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And we've seen those transactions fail.

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We've been contacted by consumers who

got a sick puppy, who didn't get a puppy

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and they were scammed out of their money.

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Um, and so the concern definitely is

going to be, you know, the health.

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This poor little thing has got to go, it's

already immunocompromised from wherever

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else it came from and now you're going

to put it through the stress and trauma

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of having to travel, you don't know what

it's exposed to, when does it get any kind

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of food or water, um, not to mention any

poor sanitation issues with being in that

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crate, you know, urinating and defecating

and having to exist in that until it gets

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to its final destination, heaven forbid if

there's A type of layover and the puppy,

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we've seen them get stuck in warehouses

that nobody's come to pick them up.

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Um, and then we, we had one

case there's in Illinois and

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they died inside the crates.

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So, you know, and there's all,

there's so much room for error

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and for something to go wrong.

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Um, I hate to say it.

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It's one of those things, like

we wouldn't do this with kids.

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We're doing this with animals.

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You know, it doesn't, doesn't make sense.

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DrG: We had a, a client, uh,

at the hospital where I was

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working at that she got a puppy.

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I don't remember what kind of a dog

it was, but she got this puppy from

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Texas and she purchased it online

and allegedly it was registered

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and it had all these things.

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And as soon as the dog landed, as soon

as she received it, she noticed that

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the dog was not feeling well and she

took it straight from when she picked

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it up to the hospital and it had parvo.

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And this poor little dog went straight

from the flight from Texas straight

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into an isolation ward for about a week.

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And this lady had all the expense

of purchasing and then all the

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expense of the parvo treatment.

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Of course, the people that sold

her the dog ghosted her because

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they're not responsible anymore.

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So it was just a disaster all around.

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And, you know, she

didn't do it maliciously.

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She truly didn't know.

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And that's kind of one of the

things that we want to do with

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this, educate people about.

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Why it's not okay to do that, right?

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Like you don't know what you're getting.

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And it's really easy to

scam somebody in the mail.

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Shalimar Oliver: Oh yeah.

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And, and no, consumers like, you

don't know what you don't know.

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Right.

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And so we see so many well intentioned

people that, uh, don't know any better.

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Or, you know, really thought they

had done enough research and hadn't.

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Um, so no, it's no fault.

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It's, it is more about why we want

to have these kind of conversations

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to generate the awareness and bring

it to people's full attention.

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Um, we're starting to see billboards

pop up around the country, talking to

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people about buying a puppy online,

buying a puppy from a breeder.

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Um, and so no, it's, it's no, you

know, no fault of their own, but it's

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gosh, with the, the struggles and the

strife that they go through buying

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that puppy, let alone what the puppy

itself goes through, it's traumatic.

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Um, we've dealt with families that

pumped thousands of dollars into, you

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know, vet costs after they've purchased

a sick puppy and only for it to die.

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That, you know, how many parents I've

talked to that have purchased a Christmas

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puppy, and that went, you know, belly up.

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It's.

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awful to think of the trauma

they have to go through.

349

:

Those aren't memories that

families want for Christmas.

350

:

Those aren't memories that kids want

growing up with their first dog.

351

:

Um, it's horrible.

352

:

I feel for them.

353

:

So what are

354

:

DrG: going to be the worst

states for puppy mills?

355

:

Shalimar Oliver: I mean, typically

it kind of stays around the same, you

356

:

know, um, locality in the, on the, in

the country, if you will, but we see,

357

:

you know, Midwest ish area, um, Ohio.

358

:

DrG: Go Bucks!

359

:

We are horrible about puppy

360

:

Shalimar Oliver: mills.

361

:

I mean, you guys are doing, there's a lot,

I think it was like over 300, um, Class

362

:

A breeders that you had, well over 300,

like 350 something, but, uh, Missouri.

363

:

Beat everybody with over 800 licensed,

um, class A breeding facilities.

364

:

So, um, but yes, uh, Kansas, Oklahoma.

365

:

Indiana, Iowa, Illinois, uh, Oklahoma, PA.

366

:

I think Wisconsin was on the list too

for like, when you're looking at the

367

:

top 10, um, USDA licensed breeders.

368

:

So let me be clear on that too.

369

:

We, when we talk about it, we want to

make sure it's from information that

370

:

we've seen, we've reviewed to, to confirm.

371

:

So, um, each year HSUS, uh, our stop

puppy mills team puts out a map.

372

:

That's accessible to people

online on the top 10 worst States.

373

:

And so, uh, good old Ohio was

up there, but not with 800, like

374

:

Missouri, but you guys had over 300.

375

:

So it's still a lot.

376

:

And even the, uh, it puts, uh,

the broker licenses in as well.

377

:

So we do the class B category.

378

:

I think you guys were like under 50,

but that's still a decent amount.

379

:

Um, 40 something, if I'm not mistaken.

380

:

So a lot of those brokers, and again,

this is just the people we know about.

381

:

There's so many that are, there's

no oversight, no regulation, no

382

:

license requirement, law enforcement

doesn't see them, they're completely

383

:

unseen by the public, so again,

it's just the ones that we know.

384

:

And what's really

385

:

DrG: sad is that some of these people

are not like just one time violations

386

:

that lands them on these lists, right?

387

:

Like some of them are year after

year after year, yet they're still

388

:

allowed to keep their license.

389

:

Shalimar Oliver: Exactly.

390

:

We have frequent flyers.

391

:

Isn't that sad that repeat offenders year

after year of the Horrible 100 report,

392

:

they're back in it again because from

our research and all the great work

393

:

that that team's done, they see the same

person, the same kennel in there once

394

:

again with repeated documented violations

that have, you know, what's being done

395

:

after that, that That's been documented.

396

:

Nothing.

397

:

So, um, yeah, it is sad to see, but we

do have those each year, unfortunately.

398

:

DrG: And speaking of Ohio, we are kind of

the home of one of the biggest pet stores

399

:

that sells animals, so no very proud

to say that we are the home of Petland.

400

:

Um, and I did help you guys with a

case a long time ago because some of

401

:

the issues with these puppies being

sold sick is not just the problem of

402

:

health problems for the animals, but

also health problems for people, right?

403

:

Right.

404

:

Shalimar Oliver: Yes, that

strikes, uh, yeah, as somebody

405

:

who's contracted Campylobacter.

406

:

Yeah, yeah.

407

:

Yes, that is no fun.

408

:

No, it's not.

409

:

DrG: Yeah, so, uh, and, and that video

is available on the Puppy Mills campaign,

410

:

but there was a purchase of a puppy.

411

:

I think it was in Kentucky

that the puppy was purchased.

412

:

Shalimar Oliver: There's a Texas video

413

:

DrG: too.

414

:

Yeah, so I think the one that I saw the

puppy that I examined from that video

415

:

was the puppy from Kentucky and it came

in and and one of the one of the things

416

:

and it's not necessarily the fault of

the employees because I don't think that

417

:

they really know they're not educated.

418

:

properly.

419

:

And they were telling the purchaser,

no, there's like less than 1 percent

420

:

chance that this dog is going to have

campylobacter or any problems like that.

421

:

And the puppy came straight from

there to me to get examined.

422

:

It was in, in relatively poor condition.

423

:

It was really thin.

424

:

It was a doodle.

425

:

So all this fluff hair, it made

it look like it was healthy, but

426

:

it was really, really skinny.

427

:

And just water diarrhea coming out

of it, um, and we examined it and it

428

:

had Campylobacter and it took about

six months to get that dog clear to

429

:

where it was having normal stool.

430

:

And thankfully it ended up in a really

good home that, that took him and

431

:

they're, they're doing great with him.

432

:

But you know, all the people that

potentially would get exposed from

433

:

these animals and just the zoonosis,

, the, Antibiotic resistance that this

434

:

is causing because a lot of these

campylobacters are not like, we

435

:

can't

436

:

Shalimar Oliver: treat them.

437

:

No, there's so there's the potential for

so much zoonotic diseases with, um, you

438

:

know, for folks that don't know where the

disease passes jumps the species barrier

439

:

so that we can contract it from them.

440

:

And, you know, I think.

441

:

I tell a lot of people too, thanks to

COVID, if you will, it really brought to

442

:

light for people to pay more attention

about zoonotic diseases that they're out

443

:

there and look how bad they can become.

444

:

And so it really helps

when I'm working with.

445

:

Different law enforcement officials,

and sometimes they'll hit a wall and

446

:

they have a great case, um, but maybe

they're not getting as much cooperation.

447

:

Uh, it's not able to go up

the chain for whatever reason.

448

:

Uh, one thing I bring to, to, to light

to them is, hey, have you talked to your

449

:

public health officials about the case?

450

:

Because you've got, you know,

Giardia, coccidia, potential for

451

:

campylobacter, even ringworm.

452

:

You know, all these things that

we can catch from these guys, um,

453

:

it really gets their attention.

454

:

And yeah, they're not happy

about introducing more disease

455

:

into the human population.

456

:

So we've seen public health officials

in a jurisdiction kind of gain interest

457

:

and jump on it with law enforcement to

work together because they had no idea.

458

:

And it could be newer to them as well.

459

:

They're looking for and tracking

for other human illnesses.

460

:

Now you're bringing in these

zoonotic diseases and illnesses.

461

:

So it's really getting the

attention, uh, and not just like

462

:

local public health officials.

463

:

There was the, the 2 CDC investigations

that came out of the Campbell back to,

464

:

uh, from Petland stores, the 2016 and

:

465

:

confirmed, you know, over 100 people

were infected and they traced it.

466

:

I believe it was from Florida where

the puppy ended up at a store and

467

:

they trace it back to the Ohio, I

think it was breeder, I'm sorry.

468

:

Um, and then in 2019 or 2020, I

think they came on their radar again.

469

:

And they went back and did

another, another study.

470

:

I don't recall all the numbers

from it, but you get the interest

471

:

of the CDC and this stuff.

472

:

Um, you know, they're not

messing around anymore.

473

:

So, um, it's interesting to see that

it's gained all their attention.

474

:

It's, it's a great thing to see, but

then it's also scary knowing this

475

:

is all out there and that yes, any

one of us can contract these, uh,

476

:

illnesses, some antibiotic resistant.

477

:

Uh, one of my co workers contracted the

antibiotic resistant strain, I believe.

478

:

And so, you know, it's, uh, it's

not something we want out there.

479

:

It's something we need to kind of

put a cap on as soon as possible.

480

:

So.

481

:

Yeah, it's no joke.

482

:

DrG: And as you had said, like, people

that buy these puppies for Christmas

483

:

presents because of their kids and

everything else, like, we're putting

484

:

all these children in, in danger,

and people that have elderly or

485

:

immunosuppressed people in their home,

because another Another misconception

486

:

is some people say, well, I don't

want to go to a shelter because I

487

:

don't know where this dog came from.

488

:

Or I know that shelters have diseases

or whatever behavioral problems.

489

:

And they go and purchase a dog from

a pet store because they think they

490

:

know where it came from, or they think

they know that they are healthy and

491

:

that couldn't be further from the

492

:

Shalimar Oliver: truth.

493

:

Right.

494

:

Yeah, no, it's, it's

the whole health issue.

495

:

I mean, at the end of the day, if it's

an adult dog you're adopting, there's

496

:

going to be history that you don't know.

497

:

But, you know, if you want an adult

dog, then you buy a retired breeder dog.

498

:

That's what lived in

a cage its whole life.

499

:

Never been on a leash, seen

sunshine, touched grass.

500

:

You're going to have a lot more

behavior issues to, um, there's

501

:

research done by Frank McMillan, uh,

on the behavior of puppy mill dogs too.

502

:

There's several papers that

he's written that, that, uh, are

503

:

fascinating that people want to

take a read, but yeah, socially,

504

:

you know, these dogs are incapable.

505

:

Um, the puppies, even, even though

they're newer at life, still come

506

:

traumatized because of everything

they've seen in those few weeks.

507

:

And so there's just, there's no guarantee,

there's no guarantee, unless you get into

508

:

your responsible breeders, breeding, uh,

with, with, that have You know, they're

509

:

breeding for good behavior and medical,

and they have that genetic testing.

510

:

They have that paperwork, legitimate

paperwork, available for, for a buyer.

511

:

DrG: But also, we're not going to

find the, what we consider responsible

512

:

breeders, which would be people

that have a veterinarian, that get

513

:

the animals examined, that do Every

test imaginable to make sure that

514

:

they are bettering the, the breed.

515

:

They're not just continuing

on diseases and stuff.

516

:

These are also people that don't have

a hundred breeding animals, right?

517

:

They usually have like two or three.

518

:

Yeah, they're going to be

519

:

Shalimar Oliver: more specific.

520

:

You know, they have that passion

of whatever specific breed

521

:

that they're interested in.

522

:

Um, you know, like the Rottweiler

and, um, they're not one of those.

523

:

I always, it's bad.

524

:

Uh, way that I paint the picture in

my head, but it's like, you know, the

525

:

little puppy drug dealer, like walking

up to you, like, what do you want?

526

:

Do you want a schnoodle oodle doodle?

527

:

Or do you want to Yorkie schnorkie porkie?

528

:

You know, they've just got a hundred

breeds of puppies in their pockets.

529

:

And it's, you know, they shouldn't

have constant funneling out like

530

:

year after year, month after month.

531

:

There's no downtime.

532

:

They just constantly have all of

these dogs and puppies available.

533

:

It's not normal.

534

:

It's not right.

535

:

It's not healthy.

536

:

Um, And yeah, so the, the responsible guys

really put that commitment and passion

537

:

into those braids where they're perfecting

and we want to keep those clean, healthy

538

:

bloodlines in existence, um, for sure.

539

:

So there's just, unfortunately, there's

just not a lot of them out there.

540

:

They're out there for sure.

541

:

Um, and we need them, but unfortunately

all these bad breeders are just

542

:

messing it up for the rest of them.

543

:

DrG: And as consumers Uh, we are making

it so much easier for these puppy

544

:

millers because now we are taking into

this whole concept of designer breeds.

545

:

So we are allowing them to

basically sell us mutts for

546

:

thousands and thousands of dollars.

547

:

And so many people don't

research into that.

548

:

I mean, not that there's any research

to do really, but that we are, we are

549

:

allowing all this stuff to happen.

550

:

Shalimar Oliver: Yeah,

there's a little bit on the H.

551

:

S.

552

:

U.

553

:

S.

554

:

website in the puppy

mill research section.

555

:

You know, we go through there's

different fact sheets out there

556

:

for people because we want to give

as much information as we can.

557

:

We even go through the

hypo allergenic stuff.

558

:

You know, and so, but all your, your

schnoodle oodle mixes too, we're, yeah,

559

:

we're, we're, we're mixing breeds here

as to what the, why this doesn't make

560

:

sense to folks and whatever's trending,

like the bernie doodle is huge right now.

561

:

Why, because why, uh, the lab,

labradoodles that, that started everything

562

:

in the golden doodles that started at

all, um, you know, no, just no, when

563

:

there's shelters, there's no excuse.

564

:

Right now, with the national crisis

that all these poor shelters across

565

:

the country are going through with

overpopulation, overcrowding, and

566

:

all those shelter workers are just

trying to do their best to get by

567

:

and get those animals good homes.

568

:

And then you have somebody go

out and buy a golden doodle.

569

:

That's why.

570

:

DrG: Yeah.

571

:

And I mean, we just, we recently

were at a spay and neuter clinic,

572

:

um, in Muskegon County and one of the

local shelters brought us 10 doodle

573

:

puppies, beautiful puppies, young

puppies that ended up at a shelter.

574

:

Because the person that bred them

was like, well, I got too many and

575

:

these are not selling, so I'm just

going to give them to the shelter.

576

:

So how is that helping

the shelter population?

577

:

And all the people that say, oh,

you can't find anything other

578

:

than pit bulls at shelters.

579

:

No, the sad reality is that

shelters are full of every age,

580

:

every breed size and everything.

581

:

And on the whole Bernadudo, I'm

seeing Bernadudos that are 20

582

:

pounds at their largest as adults.

583

:

Right.

584

:

Do people know what

Bernese Mountain Dogs are?

585

:

They're gigantic dogs, right?

586

:

It's like, put curly hair on something

and call it whatever you want it to be.

587

:

It's like, what do you want?

588

:

You want a Bernadoodle?

589

:

Here, this is a Bernadoodle.

590

:

Because how are people also going

to know what the dog is going

591

:

to be once it's fully grown?

592

:

Yeah, it's not like there's a,

there's a standard to follow.

593

:

Shalimar Oliver: No, I

think with the minis too.

594

:

Yes.

595

:

You know, you can see a 20 pound

mini, you'll see a 50 pound mini.

596

:

Like, what, what?

597

:

DrG: Talking about shelters, and this is

kind of controversial, and I don't know

598

:

that we're going to get to an answer or

figure out, but just points for thoughts

599

:

is when rescues work with puppy mills.

600

:

Um, I work with a lot of rescues that

will get animals from puppy mills.

601

:

They'll get either puppies that cannot

be sold, or they will get , the dogs

602

:

that they're done breeding, uh, and often

in really horrible conditions, right?

603

:

Like horrible teeth, horrible skin

problems, and worse than that, horrible

604

:

emotional damage, because these dogs

are just living in a cage, living in

605

:

horrible conditions, not really handled.

606

:

So I've always had two ways of thinking

about it because I feel that the rescues

607

:

are enabling the puppy mills by getting

these dogs out of there and helping

608

:

them out and not, uh, reporting them.

609

:

But then the other side of it is

that the rescues are concerned

610

:

that if they Do report them.

611

:

Nothing's going to happen.

612

:

And then what's going to

happen to these to these dogs.

613

:

And we see some retail stores

that are now encouraging rescues

614

:

to put their adoptables right

next to the purebred dogs.

615

:

So what are kind of your

616

:

Shalimar Oliver: thoughts on that?

617

:

I think it's so new.

618

:

Not brand new.

619

:

It's been around for a minute, but

it is a new topic that I think,

620

:

yeah, it's controversial because

there's pros and cons to it.

621

:

Like, just like you said, I think

at the end of the day, there's

622

:

also a whole other topic that we've

talked about before there's good

623

:

rescues and there's bad rescues.

624

:

So, you know, the rescues going in with

the intent also to profit off of it.

625

:

Um, you know, at the end of the day,

they have to generate funds to continue

626

:

the support the work they're doing.

627

:

But when you see a rescue also

selling a puppy for 1, 000,

628

:

that's that's not what it's about.

629

:

And so, uh, I think it's still

controversial because it's so new.

630

:

Um, just like you said, you know, if

no one takes those dogs from those

631

:

breeders, the retired breeder adults.

632

:

The sick puppies, the old puppies

that are too old to sell anymore.

633

:

Where do they go?

634

:

This is part of the

disappearance act, right?

635

:

They disappeared.

636

:

No one ever knows where they end up.

637

:

So is it better for us in animal welfare

because we care and you can't kill off

638

:

kindness, uh, animal welfare lovers.

639

:

We're going to, you know, try to help

where we can, but at the end of the day.

640

:

We're adults.

641

:

That's your responsibility

as a breeder, right?

642

:

That it, that you have to

understand, you have to have a plan.

643

:

What are you going to do for

the dogs that don't sell?

644

:

How, how long are you going to

breed an adult before you're

645

:

going to stop breeding it?

646

:

And then what are you going to do if

you claim to care so much for the dogs?

647

:

So, you know, we see those

responsible breeders have that plan.

648

:

They always say if something's wrong

with the puppy, you can bring it

649

:

back to us and it's still treated as

a part of a member of their family.

650

:

Um, the retired breeders, the people

that only breeds so many seasons,

651

:

cycles, what, what have you.

652

:

And so they won't put that female through

having to, you know, be a machine of just

653

:

pumping out puppies like a t shirt gun.

654

:

And so I think there's a mix to it.

655

:

What do we do if we don't, if

we do nothing, what happens?

656

:

But then we, you know, are we enabling,

are we continuing to fuel that puppy

657

:

mill pipeline for supply and demand?

658

:

Because we've given them the

space to make more puppies.

659

:

I don't know that there's

an answer to it just yet.

660

:

I see both sides to it.

661

:

Part of it, it's like, okay, let's

help out those poor adult breeders

662

:

that just need a home to rest in.

663

:

But then it's, it's your choice as this,

as taking on breeding as, as a business.

664

:

That you have to have

that plan for those dogs.

665

:

So I'm not sure yet what that looks

what that's going to look like.

666

:

And when shelters and rescues are

competing just with simply the local

667

:

supply and demand of from their

community, people that can't keep

668

:

their pets anymore stray animals that

are found and born, um, you know,

669

:

where's the space for those guys?

670

:

And do they get priority?

671

:

What does that look like?

672

:

Because I don't know.

673

:

That's a whole other topic with all of our

shelters right now that we feel right now.

674

:

So bad for, I don't know

how they're doing it.

675

:

How are you adopting where, you know,

we've, we've re reached this point where

676

:

they're not seeing as many adoptions,

um, and their resources are so low.

677

:

They're so spread thin.

678

:

So then you bring in this other type

of population again, at the end of

679

:

the day, it's all about spay'n neuter,

680

:

DrG: right?

681

:

Yeah, exactly.

682

:

Yeah.

683

:

So we, I mean, we have the, as

consumers, again, we have the power.

684

:

Spay neuter to control over population

to decrease the number of unwanted

685

:

animals that end up in the shelter.

686

:

But then it is all

about supply and demand.

687

:

So if we stop demanding the animals from

the puppy mills, they have to shut down.

688

:

I mean, if they don't have anything

to sell, then they're going to go into

689

:

another venture because if they can't

make money of it, they're not going to,

690

:

they're not going to continue it on.

691

:

Shalimar Oliver: And sure.

692

:

There's the whole, you know, I get it.

693

:

Shelter takes in 20

dogs from a puppy mill.

694

:

It brings the community and they flock

into that shelter and it can expose, you

695

:

know, maybe somebody that wasn't going

to adopt a cat falls in love with a cat

696

:

and that takes that one can into a home

or a different dog that was already

697

:

at the shelter for 300 days now gets a

chance to be seen by somebody that may

698

:

not have, I, I will acknowledge that.

699

:

However, the, the larger side of that

with these big populations coming in

700

:

from breeders, Getting rid of their dogs.

701

:

It's hard to think about.

702

:

But it does boil down to, at the end of

the day, in the animal welfare community,

703

:

we all have a hard time saying no.

704

:

DrG: And I guess that actually,

I had not thought about, uh, the

705

:

uh, auctions, the puppy auctions.

706

:

Where, which are so horrible.

707

:

I've never, I've never seen one in person,

I've only examined animals that come out

708

:

of it, but can you explain to people what

are these puppy auctions and why they're

709

:

Shalimar Oliver: so horrible?

710

:

Oh, let me give you a great example

of one with a big commercial burrito

711

:

that was getting busted and needed to

downsize so you can just Like we talked

712

:

about in the beginning, where the dogs

disappear and the regulatory agencies

713

:

don't care, the fact is dogs are gone,

so now it's not their problem anymore.

714

:

But part of where those dogs disappear to

are auctions, where if I just got busted

715

:

by the USDA, I got 500 dogs and they all

look like hell, and I've got to downsize

716

:

or fix the sick ones by this day, I'm

gonna load a hundred of them up, and

717

:

I'm gonna go to this auction where it's

literally people just bidding on dogs.

718

:

It's usually other breeders.

719

:

That are then taking Those dogs to

then make their own populations.

720

:

And again, talk about feeling the

cycle, just regenerating it over

721

:

and over, uh, the conditions there.

722

:

Are they, is there any kind

of oversight or enforcement?

723

:

No, absolutely not.

724

:

We get into other auctions, livestock

auctions, you know, there's the one out

725

:

in the, the equine one in Holland, pa.

726

:

They're awful.

727

:

And then when they're left there

too, they're, what are they?

728

:

Do they have food,

water, adequate shelter?

729

:

Um, is there regulations

on selling sick ones?

730

:

Nope.

731

:

Sure isn't.

732

:

Hey, you got 200 bucks and you want

to buy this, you know, breeder.

733

:

This female that's been used

about 22 times in her life.

734

:

Here you go.

735

:

She's yours.

736

:

And so it's disgusting.

737

:

There are some rescues that try

to do some good and they try to

738

:

raise money to go out there and get

some of those dogs out of there.

739

:

It's heartbreaking.

740

:

Cause it's like, I wish I had a million

dollars so you could just buy everything.

741

:

Guess what?

742

:

If you had a million dollars and you

bought all those dogs, they'll find a

743

:

way to bring in more, no matter what.

744

:

DrG: Yeah, that's what that's where I

have been involved have been rescues

745

:

that go to these auctions and then

they get the puppies and nobody wants

746

:

right they're getting some of these

dogs for like five bucks, 10 bucks,

747

:

and they are dogs in horrible shape.

748

:

Um, and, and we have to think about the

fact that, you know, again, we talked

749

:

about all the, the health diseases

and the emotional problems that these

750

:

dogs have, and then the rescues take

these dogs, get them spayed and kind

751

:

of patch them up, and then these

dogs become somebody else's problem.

752

:

Yeah,

753

:

Shalimar Oliver: they're going to take

that on and sustain that, you know,

754

:

whatever the medical issue might be.

755

:

And if there's not a combination of the

medical issues, if it's a younger dog

756

:

that as it grows, then develops those

congenital issues that's put on that

757

:

poor, again, well intentioned person

that wants to bring, you know, another

758

:

family member into they're stuck with,

which is, we know too, the costs.

759

:

To, to care for them.

760

:

And then, you know, you want to keep

going on about the cycle, it can lead

761

:

to then people either surrendering the

dog again or failing to provide care to

762

:

their own pet and that gets reported.

763

:

So it's a vicious cycle.

764

:

And then you're really just relying

on these amazing people that have the

765

:

means to pay thousands and thousands

of dollars, which is not a lot of us.

766

:

Rightly so, you know, I,

it's, it's, it's a lot.

767

:

The, uh, pet is a huge undertaking.

768

:

Um, other countries right now that are

questioning, like, do you need a license?

769

:

Like, do you need permission basically,

uh, to earn a dog because of what

770

:

their issues are they're seeing?

771

:

So, um, it's a huge responsibility,

but they have, the consumers are left

772

:

with having to continue that care.

773

:

Once the rescue still pumped

thousands or hundreds of dollars

774

:

into that dog, it doesn't stop there.

775

:

Um, and then behaviorally too,

which is a whole other thing.

776

:

So if they're having to manage that, and

we've seen people that have, you know,

777

:

adopted from a rescue, but then returned

it because the, the dog's behavior is,

778

:

is something that is not compatible with

their lifestyle or wishes for, for a pet.

779

:

DrG: Yeah.

780

:

I would definitely like to see more

regulation of not just the puppy

781

:

milk, which they're not well, properly

as properly regulated as we would

782

:

like, but regulation of just anybody

that breeds a dog for sale, because

783

:

they're just, there, there is no way.

784

:

To properly keep track of it.

785

:

And there are so many people that

are doing it for the wrong reasons,

786

:

just because they want to make money.

787

:

I know of a person that breeds small

breed dogs and the, at least the mom dog.

788

:

And I probably the dad dog too,

but the bitch has skin problems,

789

:

behavior problems, I think orthopedic

problems, and they keep breeding them

790

:

and the people that are buying them.

791

:

It's just like, Oh, what a cute puppy.

792

:

And then they pay her many

hundreds of dollars for this dog.

793

:

That is a genetic disaster and for why?

794

:

Right?

795

:

Because this person is not, is

not being, uh, regulated and

796

:

they're probably not even paying

taxes for the sale of these dogs.

797

:

Like, it's just ridiculous

all the way around.

798

:

And the one that suffer is the person

that bought this dog thinking that

799

:

they're buying a healthy puppy.

800

:

And then the dog in the end, that is

going to have all of these health problems

801

:

that may or may not get treated properly.

802

:

Well, so somebody actually did make a

report once you guys received that report.

803

:

How does it go forward from there?

804

:

Shalimar Oliver: Yeah, I mean,

it's, it's a hit or miss, right?

805

:

So if we get information sent over to us.

806

:

Uh, so we can either receive it from

a person that's visited, so they're

807

:

reporting the conditions, a buyer that's

had a horrible experience, uh, law

808

:

enforcement, family of, you know, there's

so many different ways that we can receive

809

:

information, but once we're contacted, um,

let's say that we get an online complaint.

810

:

And so we'll, you know, document it,

address it, do some research on it, and

811

:

then we're going to reach out to law

enforcement and share the information

812

:

with them, but also follow up and offering

any kind of resources and assistance.

813

:

So, you know, sometimes they might just,

you know, law enforcement will then

814

:

go out, do an inspection, uh, confirm

whether or not there are any issues.

815

:

Close the case.

816

:

Uh, sometimes we have an

opportunity in our outreach to law

817

:

enforcement to provide education.

818

:

This is something I've

not investigated before.

819

:

What do I do?

820

:

What am I looking for?

821

:

Great.

822

:

Let me tell you all the things.

823

:

DrG: Asking for help is great.

824

:

Please

825

:

Shalimar Oliver: do.

826

:

Right.

827

:

To follow up with, you know, if these

things happen and you find these

828

:

problems that we can support ABC for you.

829

:

Um, and then the, the hope is if they

open an investigation and it becomes a big

830

:

deal, referencing a recent North Carolina,

a puppy mill case that we just did.

831

:

Um, you know, law enforcement

takes real interest.

832

:

They acknowledge this as a horrific issue

in their jurisdiction and they want to

833

:

act on it, but then they're like, Wait,

there's how many dogs on the property?

834

:

Over 100?

835

:

Uh, what do we have to do if we have

to seize them through a search warrant?

836

:

Where do we put them?

837

:

What do we do?

838

:

Is this live evidence?

839

:

Uh, who's responsible

for paying for all this?

840

:

We don't have a vet.

841

:

We have no local shelter or our local

animal shelter has five kennels that

842

:

are already filled with 50 dogs.

843

:

Um, they don't have the resources.

844

:

We will come in and it's it's something

that we, you know, hope to help with in

845

:

our connection and our outreach with these

agencies of if you can, on your side,

846

:

perform the criminal investigation, see

there's an issue, there's enough evidence.

847

:

To pursue something you've tried to help.

848

:

You've tried to educate.

849

:

There's been no change or compliance

and it reaches the point where a

850

:

search warrant needs to be executed

and we're working with law enforcement.

851

:

We're working with the prosecutor's

office, but we're the ones

852

:

providing those resources.

853

:

Yes.

854

:

And we come in.

855

:

Under law enforcement to work with them

and work for them in providing all of

856

:

those resources, the unseen evidence

collection during the search warrant.

857

:

But then after that, too, it's

not like we just help on the day.

858

:

And then we were off.

859

:

Um, H.

860

:

S.

861

:

U.

862

:

S.

863

:

Being able.

864

:

To provide that financial assistance

relieves them of the financial burden,

865

:

which is at one of the major concerns

of an enforcement agency pursuing these

866

:

cases, because as you know, they can

cost hundreds of thousands of dollars

867

:

we participated in cases that have

cost us over millions of dollars.

868

:

One that comes to mind that we spent over

2 million while the dogs were in our care.

869

:

That is nothing that a

local agency can take on.

870

:

No rescue that could

bankrupt a non profit.

871

:

And so being able to give these resources

at no cost to an enforcement agency

872

:

that you can do your job and we can

support you in that is incredible.

873

:

We're very fortunate as an

organization that we can do that.

874

:

But if, and when needed.

875

:

Um, you know, like I mentioned, not

just on seizure day, but then following

876

:

the ongoing care of the animals, the

cost of veterinary care and veterinary

877

:

assessment and examination and triage

of all these dogs that have come

878

:

in from these horrific conditions.

879

:

Um, the cost can be gargantuan

transporting them where

880

:

are they getting housed?

881

:

Because again, they're live evidence

that they don't go in a drug locker.

882

:

So then the staff and the resources to

continue that care whilst those are animal

883

:

whilst those animals are held throughout

the duration of the court case, which is

884

:

we know can take years, especially if it's

in a state that doesn't have cost of care.

885

:

So, um, you know, you could be holding

on to the animals for weeks to months to

886

:

years, I've seen a shelter in Kentucky.

887

:

It was two to three years

they were holding on to these

888

:

dogs the puppies were adults.

889

:

You know, it's, it's horrific to

think about, but yes, we can come in

890

:

and provide those kinds of resources.

891

:

If requested, we just

have to be invited in.

892

:

DrG: A lot of people that complain about

why is this puppy mill still around?

893

:

Like, why are you not doing anything?

894

:

They don't recognize the lack of

resources, including specially as you

895

:

mentioned and veterinary resources.

896

:

I know here in Ohio, for instance,

there are so many veterinarians that

897

:

don't want to get involved because

they don't want to go to court.

898

:

They don't want to, you

know, have to write legal.

899

:

papers or consults because they're

concerned about what if I mess up?

900

:

What if I do something wrong?

901

:

And that for, for animal cases,

you have to have a veterinary team.

902

:

You have to have people that know

about animals to, to help with that.

903

:

And as you said, where are

these animals going to go?

904

:

Now, when you recuperate the animals

from a case, when you get the animals

905

:

out of that situation, what are the

possible end points for those animals?

906

:

Shalimar Oliver: Once we bring them

back to our, uh, either if it's a

907

:

local temporary shelter, or we have

a care and rehabilitation facility in

908

:

Maryland, um, once they either come

back to either shelter, um, then our

909

:

mission first off is to rehabilitate.

910

:

We need to get a lot of these

animals, obviously, because they've

911

:

been seized, are in poor conditions.

912

:

So, showing improvement.

913

:

providing simple things such as food

and water and adequate shelter, but then

914

:

the needed vet care for a lot of them.

915

:

Um, and so that takes time.

916

:

That takes in some situations, a long

time to rehabilitate, uh, medically and

917

:

behaviorally because these dogs are coming

in from horrific conditions and we have

918

:

a great behavior team that works closely

with them to monitor, address, provide

919

:

those resources for that for those dogs.

920

:

, but, uh, you know, provide the dogs

with the things that they need to

921

:

learn or remember how to dog again.

922

:

So that we can essentially

set them up for success.

923

:

And their next step of their journey

that once we get custody of them,

924

:

then we work with these incredible

shelter and rescue partners across

925

:

the country that have some space.

926

:

We don't want to overwhelm their

population and overburden them.

927

:

So we want to look for the places of where

is their space, where is there some needs.

928

:

And so once those shelter and rescue

partners can take them in, then we want to

929

:

send, you know, the dogs that we've now,

um, invested everything into to set them

930

:

up for success in the step of their next,

you know, adventure and the next chapter

931

:

in their life so they can find good homes.

932

:

and bring awareness, especially

when they're puppy mill dogs

933

:

coming from puppy mill cases.

934

:

People think it's cute and then it's,

but it is an opportunity then to train

935

:

and teach members of the community, like,

but this is what, what they came from.

936

:

These are the conditions.

937

:

that they may not have really

understood or known about before.

938

:

DrG: In closing, how can,

how can consumers protect

939

:

themselves from purchasing a

dog that is from a puppy mill?

940

:

Shalimar Oliver: I say this to

my friends that reach out to me.

941

:

So even close, the people

that are close to me.

942

:

That I care for that I don't want

to see go through the experiences

943

:

that I see every day at work.

944

:

Um, is kind of what we touched

on with the responsible breeders,

945

:

you know, look for the breeders

that have all this information.

946

:

There should be, you know, no hesitation

if you have questions about things that

947

:

they have answers to those questions

that if you want to see something

948

:

that they will show you whether it be.

949

:

In person living conditions,

the parents, the dog, uh, the

950

:

biggest things, genetic testing.

951

:

Can I tell you how many handwritten

receipts I've seen of like

952

:

vaccine check on the back of a

grocery receipt or something?

953

:

No, no handwritten information.

954

:

You want documentation.

955

:

You know what official

documentation looks like as a

956

:

veterinarian, all of that paperwork.

957

:

There should be no hesitation.

958

:

Even do you want to

talk to my veterinarian?

959

:

Right.

960

:

Hey, the medical expert who has seen and

treated all your dogs over the years,

961

:

um, but the genetic testing is huge.

962

:

I would focus more on what is a red flag.

963

:

Red flag is someone who has.

964

:

Everything, every time, all

the time, should be a red flag.

965

:

The breeder that says, let's meet in this

parking lot at Home Depot or Walmart.

966

:

DrG: 10 o'clock at night, cash only.

967

:

Shalimar Oliver: Yeah.

968

:

Um, and you, someone, people that

should have these good reviews,

969

:

look up reviews because guess what?

970

:

No one can, no one says

things when they're great.

971

:

But I tell you, they'll

complain when something's bad.

972

:

So you'll see a lot of bad

reviews out there as well.

973

:

Don't forget the information you

have access to, to look up the

974

:

USDA, um, their search tool for

the breeder license registrations.

975

:

Also each state, not every state,

but there are some states that have,

976

:

um, that require state licenses

and they do state inspections.

977

:

Can you request those records

to that regulatory agency?

978

:

Is it, is it accessible?

979

:

Most of them are not accessible online,

but there are some states that you

980

:

can pull that information off of.

981

:

, and then, , uh, yeah, doing just any

basic online research to looking at

982

:

their website, looking at other people

that have had those experiences, not

983

:

going on a Facebook marketplace and

looking at something like for 300.

984

:

It looks cute.

985

:

Um, but the red flags to them of

especially if you with the puppy

986

:

mill scams where they're trying

to, you know, get you to give them

987

:

more money for different reasons.

988

:

So, uh, focus on the red flags.

989

:

What doesn't look right?

990

:

And yes, totally go with your

gut, um, and do your research.

991

:

So really take the time.

992

:

I think when people are buying on a

whim or just because they want it.

993

:

That's where something usually

goes wrong, because they

994

:

haven't really taken the time.

995

:

even when you go to shelters, like

people will visit more than once,

996

:

because they want to look around,

they want to get a feel for it.

997

:

So it shouldn't be a

rush, a rush purchase.

998

:

Um, that's where bad things

can definitely happen too.

999

:

So really paying attention to

those red flags, but using the

:

00:54:35,713 --> 00:54:38,513

tools or knowing about the tools

that are out there to help you.

:

00:54:38,963 --> 00:54:42,453

Buy the right dog if you don't

want to go to your local shelter.

:

00:54:43,733 --> 00:54:45,913

DrG: I always tell people, you

know, obviously the shelters are

:

00:54:45,913 --> 00:54:50,563

overcrowded so adopt, don't shop,

but if you shop, shop responsibly.

:

00:54:50,713 --> 00:54:54,943

Like, don't just go buying for backyard

breeders and people that are just selling

:

00:54:54,943 --> 00:54:58,163

dogs for the wrong reasons, which the

wrong reasons is just to make a buck.

:

00:54:58,488 --> 00:55:03,168

Not to better the breed or to,

uh, you know, breed out genetic

:

00:55:03,168 --> 00:55:04,828

problems and genetic disorders.

:

00:55:05,158 --> 00:55:07,238

Shalimar Oliver: And people

are upset about, like, there's

:

00:55:07,238 --> 00:55:08,368

no puppies in shelters.

:

00:55:08,378 --> 00:55:11,688

Well, there's rescues that are going

to these states that are riddled with

:

00:55:11,698 --> 00:55:13,788

puppies, trying to bring some back.

:

00:55:13,788 --> 00:55:16,268

So rescues play a really great role in.

:

00:55:16,573 --> 00:55:17,723

Adoption too.

:

00:55:18,323 --> 00:55:18,683

So,

:

00:55:19,573 --> 00:55:21,853

DrG: and there's even

purebred rescues, right?

:

00:55:21,853 --> 00:55:24,883

So people that are interested

in purebreds, there are places

:

00:55:24,923 --> 00:55:27,363

that are purebred rescues and

they do get puppies occasionally.

:

00:55:27,533 --> 00:55:31,203

And yes, it is difficult to adopt

from them because I'm sure there's

:

00:55:31,203 --> 00:55:34,983

a high demand, but they don't want

those dogs to end up back with them.

:

00:55:35,623 --> 00:55:40,463

So they are going to be really picky,

sometimes pickier than adopting a child.

:

00:55:40,573 --> 00:55:44,033

Shalimar Oliver: Yeah, they, they, they,

some of their requirements, um, you know,

:

00:55:44,033 --> 00:55:46,443

we've seen they're very, uh, intense.

:

00:55:47,003 --> 00:55:52,243

And we, we feel that passion, um,

but it shouldn't be impossible.

:

00:55:52,423 --> 00:55:52,783

Right.

:

00:55:53,073 --> 00:55:57,503

If there are reasons that they want to

adopt to people, they should be legitimate

:

00:55:57,503 --> 00:55:59,413

reasons, but it shouldn't be impossible.

:

00:55:59,413 --> 00:56:02,383

When you hit that point,

that's a red flag for a rescue.

:

00:56:03,343 --> 00:56:06,603

DrG: Right, yeah, how much they

charge and what exactly they're,

:

00:56:06,613 --> 00:56:08,493

they're looking for as well.

:

00:56:09,113 --> 00:56:13,023

So, uh, if anybody wants to find out

information about the puppy mill campaign

:

00:56:13,043 --> 00:56:15,193

from HSUS, how can they get that?

:

00:56:15,773 --> 00:56:17,703

Shalimar Oliver: Yes, anyone

can go online and look up at

:

00:56:17,743 --> 00:56:20,243

HSUS's website, so humanesociety.

:

00:56:20,273 --> 00:56:20,683

org.

:

00:56:20,723 --> 00:56:23,533

We have a ton of puppy mills research.

:

00:56:23,653 --> 00:56:27,873

You can just type in HSUS puppy

mills research, every kind of

:

00:56:27,873 --> 00:56:29,103

document will fly on your face.

:

00:56:30,063 --> 00:56:33,833

They, the team has done a phenomenal

job with, uh, comprising all of this

:

00:56:33,833 --> 00:56:38,733

information into easy flow section

in the website, um, so that we can

:

00:56:38,743 --> 00:56:40,433

teach you all things puppy mills.

:

00:56:40,453 --> 00:56:43,663

And if people have questions, there's

emails for people to reach out to

:

00:56:43,663 --> 00:56:48,063

us, ask these questions, learn this

information, spread the information,

:

00:56:48,453 --> 00:56:52,513

tons of other advocacy groups that

are out there also trying to send the

:

00:56:52,523 --> 00:56:56,853

message about we need to end puppy mills

and do better with regulating them.

:

00:56:57,283 --> 00:56:58,863

So anyway, we can help.

:

00:56:59,638 --> 00:57:02,998

DrG: Always amazing talking to you

because you're a wealth of information

:

00:57:03,398 --> 00:57:06,008

and you kick ass against animal cruelty.

:

00:57:06,008 --> 00:57:07,498

So thank you for everything that you do.

:

00:57:07,508 --> 00:57:07,718

Shalimar Oliver: Back at you.

:

00:57:10,278 --> 00:57:14,378

DrG: And for everybody that is

listening, please, I hope that

:

00:57:14,378 --> 00:57:16,518

you get at least a little bit of.

:

00:57:16,753 --> 00:57:18,493

new information or education.

:

00:57:18,793 --> 00:57:23,753

And as Shalimar said, spread the word

because we are the only ones that can

:

00:57:23,753 --> 00:57:25,373

help this problem and stop puppy mills.

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00:57:25,953 --> 00:57:29,863

So thank you ma'am very much

again for being here and to

:

00:57:30,063 --> 00:57:31,333

everybody that's listening.

:

00:57:31,393 --> 00:57:33,333

Thanks to you for listening

and thank you for caring.

:

00:57:34,093 --> 00:57:34,850

Thank you much.

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About the Podcast

The Animal Welfare Junction
Veterinary Forensics
The Animal Welfare Junction is a podcast developed to bring awareness to different topics in animal welfare. The host, Michelle Gonzalez (Dr. G) is a veterinarian who provides affordable veterinary care in the State of Ohio, and also a Forensic Veterinarian helping with the investigation and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.
The topics presented are based on the experiences of Dr. G and our guests and include discussions about real cases, humane projects, and legal issues that affect animals and the community. Due to the nature of the discussion, listener discretion is advised as some topics may be too strong for some listeners.

About your host

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Alba Gonzalez

Michelle González (DrG) was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Her passion growing up was to become a veterinarian. She obtained a B.S. in Zoology at Michigan State University and the Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree at The Ohio State University, followed by a 1-yr Internship in Medicine, Surgery, Emergency and Critical Care at the University of Missouri-Columbia. In 2006 she founded the Rascal Unit, a mobile clinic offering accesible and affordable sterilization, and wellness services throughout the State of Ohio.
Dr. G is involved in many aspects of companion veterinary medicine including education, shelter assistance and help to animals that are victims of cruelty and neglect.
DrG completed a Master’s degree in Veterinary Forensics from the University of Florida and a Master’s in Forensic Psychology from Southern New Hampshire University. She is currently enrolled at the University of Florida Forensic Science program. She assists Humane organizations and animal control officers in the investigation, evaluation, and prosecution of cases of animal cruelty and neglect.