Season 1: State v Steffen Baldwin / Episode 3: Who is Steffen Baldwin?
Season 1: State vs Steffen Baldwin / Episode 3: Who is Steffen Baldwin?
Steffen Baldwin fooled the animal welfare world with his “masked persona”, presenting himself as a dog savior when in fact he was harming and killing the dogs he was asked to help. But how does someone evolve into this? What factors in someone’s childhood effect the person we become?
In this episode, Author James Renner, talks about his research into Baldwin’s childhood and early adulthood to help our audience understand a bit of the person behind the mask. We may not truly understand him, but this will give us some insight to the early influences that helped developed him into the monster he became.
RATE, SHARE and LIKE this episode to help us reach more people! This can happen anywhere, and together we can make a difference in the lives of animals our communities.
Transcript
Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.
2
:This is your host, Dr.
3
:G, and our music is written
and produced by Mike Sullivan.
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:Today, this is Episode Three
of our Season One series, State
5
:of Ohio versus Steffen Baldwin.
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:And this episode is named "Who
is Steffen Baldwin", because
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:some of our followers may know
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:some things about him.
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:But I don't know that anybody
really knows who Steffen was or is.
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:So today we're gonna learn
a little bit about him.
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:Uh, just a reminder for our listeners, the
series talks about sensitive topics such
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:as animal abuse and domestic violence.
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:So take care of yourself if
there's a part of this podcast
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:that is hard for you to listen,
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:take a break, hit the fast forward
button, and, you know, come back
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:when, come back where you're ready.
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:Um, today we have a really special guest.
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:We have author James Renner here
to discuss with us about Steffen.
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:Thank you so much for being here.
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:Welcome to the Junction.
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:James Renner: Yeah, no, thank
you very much for having me.
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:It's, it's interesting, I, I met you
in court and, uh, I remember giving
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:you a card and, um, it, I did not know
the kind of tornado of activity that
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:would follow that, that, that meeting.
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:And then, you know, here, here we are
talking about it, you know, a couple
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:months later and it's still one of the
most bizarre stories I've ever heard.
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:DrG: Yeah.
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:Right.
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:And, and it's like the last episode
was "The Rabbit Hole" because, I
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:mean it is a rabbit hole and, and
you could not ask for more different
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:types of scams in one individual.
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:Yes.
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:As all the things that,
that Steffen has done.
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:James Renner: That's for sure.
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:Yeah.
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:It's, it's, you know, as I feel kind
of like an archeologist digging into
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:his past and trying to figure out
like what's, what's authentic and, and
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:what's not, what's stuff that he just
made up and it's been very difficult.
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:But I do have a, a little
insight into, you know, who he
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:was and, and where he came from.
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:DrG: For members of our audience that may
not know who you are, can you let them
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:know who you are and what you normally do?
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:James Renner: Um, my name's James Renner.
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:Uh, I'm a native Ohioan.
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:I live here in, uh, Akron, Ohio.
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:And, uh, I am mostly known
for, uh, my true crime books.
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:Um, I started out as a reporter, uh, at
a place up here called Scene, kind of
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:like our village voice, uh, newspaper.
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:And after, uh, Scene I be,
I wrote books full time.
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:I've written a couple novels,
but mostly true crime.
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:Books.
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:I'm mostly known for my book on
the disappearance of Maura Murray.
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:Uh, it's called True Crime
Addict, and it came out in:
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:And this is about, uh, a young
woman who, um, was a student at the
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:University of Massachusetts Amherst.
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:And, in February of 2004, she
emailed her professors and said,
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:there's been a death in the family.
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:Hold my work till the end of the week.
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:And that was a lie.
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:Nobody died in her family.
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:She went to the bank, emptied out
her bank account, which was only
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:about 280 bucks or something, bought
a bunch of liquor, way more liquor
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:than like one person would need.
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:Then drove up into the White Mountains of
New Hampshire and around 7:30 that night,
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:she crashed into a snowbank in front
of like three houses on a country road.
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:And so the people living in
those homes heard the crash.
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:They called 911.
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:Between the time of the accident
and when the first officer responded
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:to the scene, it's a window of
about five to seven minutes.
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:And sometime in that span of
five to seven minutes more
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:disappears, never to be seen again.
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:They never found a body.
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:Uh, they don't know what happened to her.
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:They don't even know why she was up
in the MO mountains to begin with.
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:But of course, uh, Maura, um, one
thing you should know about her
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:is before she became a student at
University of Massachusetts Amherst,
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:she was a cadet at West Point.
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:And that becomes important in this story.
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:Uh, so, um, yeah, I'm a
journalist, I'm a writer.
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:I've, I've a storyteller.
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:That's, that's what I do.
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:DrG: Yeah.
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:And you bringing this up, because
that's kind of why we met, right?
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:Like you, you were not at Steffen's
sentencing necessarily because of
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:the crimes that he had done about the
animals, but it's because he is somewhat
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:related to the Maura Murray story.
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:James Renner: Correct, yes.
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:So again, the book came out in 2016, and
I still get tips sometimes about the case.
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:I've got a website about the case,
so people find me pretty easily.
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:But over the years, those tips have
kind of died off, uh, quite a bit.
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:But I was in, in March, um, one day.
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:It's a Thursday.
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:I'm, I'm sitting, uh, working
on my podcast and planning
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:to have just a normal day.
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:I got my cup of coffee.
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:I sat down nine o'clock, I think
it was 9:00 AM on the nose.
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:My phone rings.
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:And on the other end is, um, a,
uh, a person who knows about the
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:case and, uh, you know, it was
a, became a source for the story.
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:And they, they said, Hey,
uh, do you want to, um.
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:Can I tell you a story?
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:And I, I'm always, you know, sure.
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:You, you called me, you know, I,
I'm assuming it's about a crime.
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:Let's, let's talk.
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:And they, they started telling me
the story about Steffen Baldwin
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:and, you know, everything that
happened with these, these animals.
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:And, you know, it was a
terrible story, but I had no
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:idea what it had to do with me.
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:And, you know, we talked for about
20 minutes and finally I'm like.
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:You know, um, I, you know, I had this
thought even like, oh, I'm, you know,
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:I gotta find a way to get out of this
conversation 'cause you know, this doesn't
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:have anything to do with what I'm doing.
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:And then this person tells me that, um,
after they happened to know that after,
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:uh, Baldwin was arrested, the police
entered his fingerprints into aphis,
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:which is the database that the FBI keeps
for fingerprints, and the next day.
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:The New Hampshire State Police called
police here in Ohio and said, Hey,
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:uh, we got a match to this fingerprint
that you just put up in our database,
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:and it's a match to the unsolved
disappearance of Maura Murray.
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:And so suddenly my ears perked up.
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:I'm like, oh, okay.
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:I know why this person is calling me now.
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:So when Maura Murray got into that
accident, they processed the car
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:and they dusted it for prints.
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:Somewhere inside the car, and I've
been told by, by Steffen himself that
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:it was found on a CD or CD case that
that's where they found his fingerprint.
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:I have not been able to confirm
that with with police, so I don't
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:know for sure if that's where his
fingerprint was, but they found his
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:fingerprint connected to the case.
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:And the lead detective at the
time for the Maura Murray case
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:was a man named Chuck West.
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:And when he spoke to police
here in Ohio, he told them
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:Steffen had become his number
one suspect in the case.
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:And so suddenly I'm like, wow, I
gotta, I gotta, I gotta see if I
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:can, what's going on with Steffen.
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:I gotta see if I can talk to this guy.
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:And I was told that his
sentencing was that very day.
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:And uh, you know, coincidentally it's
here in Ohio, you know, I think it was
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:about a two hour drive from me, so.
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:I jumped in the car right away and
I drove down to the courthouse.
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:I'm not gonna pass up that opportunity.
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:And so I get to the courthouse about
a half an hour before the sentencing,
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:and I walk into the courthouse and, uh,
you know, it's a, a Union County right?
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:Is where it was.
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:Yeah.
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:And it's a, yeah.
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:Correct.
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:I mean, it's a very small courthouse.
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:It's a, um, and so there, there's
not a lot of places to go anyways.
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:I, I walk into the courthouse.
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:Walk upstairs and there's Steffen
standing outside the courtroom
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:doors next to his lawyer.
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:And I go up and introduce myself
and uh, and I realized this is
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:probably the only opportunity I'm
gonna get to talk to this guy.
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:So I started asking him
questions right away.
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:I said, you, do you remember Maura Murray?
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:And he said, yes.
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:He said they met at West Point
when they were both cadets there.
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:This would've been back
in:
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:Maura Murray was a cadet, Steffen was
there, and, uh, he said they met there
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:and he was very, very fond of her.
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:He, he cared a lot for her.
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:And, I then learned that when they kind of
met when she got in trouble at West Point.
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:Uh, one of the times she got in
trouble at West Point, and according
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:to Steffen, and I'd heard this rumor
before, but Maura was found, uh, after
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:a night of partying, found passed
out on the lawn, uh, on, on campus.
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:And that's a big, that's
a, that's a big deal.
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:That's a big infraction.
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:So she had to go in front of
the judicial review board.
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:And Steffen was one of the students
that was helping with that, that
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:process, and helped her through the
process of the judicial review board.
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:And they, for whatever reason, connected,
um, you know, that's kind of a pattern
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:in Steffen's life, you know, these, these
women that, that he meets and quickly
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:becomes, um, closer with, uh, and.
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:Uh, that's what, that's
what happened there.
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:He, um, you know, they, he said that he
was in a relationship with Maura for a
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:little while and, uh, there is a little
bit of proof of that, uh, because, um,
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:they both got in trouble one day when
another cadet walked into Steffen's room
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:and discovered Maura and Steffen in bed.
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:At West Point, it's a big deal.
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:If you're caught, the, the way they refer
to it is if you're on the same horizontal
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:surface as a member of the opposite
sex, that's, that's a big infraction.
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:So, uh, Steffen got into some trouble
for that and, and so did Maura.
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:Um, and, you know, so they, uh,
essentially they were kind of hooking
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:up, you know, as, as young people do.
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:And he wanted, wanted it to be a little
bit more, and thought that maybe it
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:was, but then one day they're on a bus
traveling somewhere and he asks her
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:to sit with him and she, she says, no,
I've, I'm kind of seeing this other guy.
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:And that's when she went over and
sat next to this guy named Bill
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:Roush, who she ends up in a very,
um, long-term relationship with.
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:And he was her boyfriend at
the time of the disappearance.
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:So, um, you know, he has this interaction
with Maura and I, you know, I said, well,
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:hey, you know, how'd your fingerprint
get in her car when she went missing?
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:Because you knew her in 2001
and she went missing in:
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:Um, and he, and he said, that's when
he said that the FBI who talked to
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:him just a year ago, by the way,
he was, you know, so he is still
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:interesting to the investigation.
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:Um, they, he says that they told him
his fingerprint was found on a cd and
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:he's like, yeah, we used to, you know.
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:When we were hanging out, I'd make CDs for
her, I'd burn CDs, and I'd give it to her.
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:Um, you know, it as kind of like a mix
tape, and he says, so that's, that's
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:why my CD's on the car, uh, in the car.
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:Or why my fingerprint's in the car.
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:But, you know, I have a lot of
questions about that, you know, the
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:least of which is like, how long
does a fingerprint, uh, stay on a cd?
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:Uh, especially one that, you know,
more of a, if you're listening to those
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:CDs a lot, my biggest question is, was
it on the CD that was actually in the
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:player at the time of the accident?
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:That would be very interesting
to me, but the police have
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:been very quiet about that.
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:Um, oh, one other thing about West
Point that I found interesting is that
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:Steffen, neither Steffen nor Maura
actually completed West Point, and
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:they both left this institution that
you fight really hard to get into.
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:They both left within like
a week or two of each other.
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:Steffen left in December of 2001
and Maura left in January of:
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:Um, the reason she, she left is she
was, uh, she got caught stealing
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:from the commissary at Fort Knox
and they were going to remove
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:her from the Corps of Cadets.
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:Uh, but they allowed her to
withdraw before her, you know,
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:quote unquote sentencing.
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:So she had to leave.
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:Um, he, it was kind of
his choice to leave.
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:And, and for somebody like Steffen who
really doesn't like to fail in anything,
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:um, there's, that's a big question for me.
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:Like, why did Steffen leave West Point
when he only had two years to, to go?
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:Um.
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:So, and, and maybe he even had
less, he might have been three
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:years into it, I don't know.
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:Um, so yeah, so that's, that's his
intersection with the Maura Murray case.
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:And so since I've learned that, I've
been doing a, a lot of research into
230
:who this guy is and where he comes
from, and, you know, I can, I'm
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:happy to go into that a little bit.
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:DrG: No, absolutely.
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:I mean, and you know, people.
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:Ask me about, this is really interesting,
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:do you think that he could
have hurt a person or whatever.
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:But I do veterinary forensics and I
know that there's a link between animal
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:cruelty and interpersonal violence,
and somebody that's cruel to animals
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:can be violent to people as well.
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:So we'll see how, how this develop
and hopefully we can have a bonus
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:episode at the end of the series
about, yeah, Steffen and and Maura, so.
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:Sure.
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:Guess what I let, let's start
at the beginning, like, who
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:was Steffen, uh, as a child?
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:Like what was his upbringing?
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:James Renner: So it's my
understanding that, um, and I
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:have talked to Steffen's father.
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:I had a, I had a short interview with him.
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:Um, so it's coming from that.
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:It's also coming from Steffen's
autobiography, which I
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:was able to get a copy of.
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:He was, he had written like more
than a hundred pages of this.
252
:Autobiography that he was
keeping in on his computer.
253
:And that became a part of
discovery in this whole case.
254
:It was part of what they
swiped from the computer.
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:So I was able to read that and
that gave some insight too.
256
:But, um, so, you know, he comes from a,
um, a big family, but at the beginning
257
:it was just him and his older brother
and they both had the same mom and dad,
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:uh, lived in New Jersey at the time.
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:And his parents went through
a very contentious divorce
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:when Steffen was still young.
261
:And, um, uh, he and his brother and his
mom kind of disappeared for a while.
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:Uh, his mom kind of absconded with
the boys and his father didn't know
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:where she was for, for a while.
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:And then he gets a call one day
and it's from the mother, Barbara.
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:His mom's name is Barbara and
she calls him from California and
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:says, we've moved to California.
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:Um, you know, the boys need you.
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:Uh, and so to his credit, he was living in
New York at the time, I believe upstate.
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:He moves to California, upends his life,
and, and moves to be closer to the boys.
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:Uh, and,
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:coincidentally, he was in the
animal, uh, care business.
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:You know, he's running a, um, a, a, a
non, I believe it was a nonprofit too.
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:But he was, he was working with
animal care, uh, out there, and he
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:ends up taking custody of the brother
and Steffen stays with his mother.
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:And that ends up having
a big impact on his life.
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:Because according to him, his mother
was very abusive, would often hit
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:him, would always yell at him.
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:They lived in dirt poor neighborhoods,
uh, around LA, so it was also dangerous.
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:He said, uh, you know, in his
autobiography he talks about
280
:just reading books at home.
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:And because he, there's, it was too
dangerous to go outside to play.
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:That's kind of, but you know, because
of all that reading, he excelled at
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:school, which is how he eventually gets
on the track of getting into the West
284
:Point Academy that feeds in, or the west.
285
:It's kind of a West Point prep school
that feeds into, that's how he gets
286
:into the West Point, um, academy.
287
:So, uh, he, you know, he,
he's very, very intelligent.
288
:Um.
289
:He had definitely been
abused in his childhood.
290
:He has a very contentious
relationship with his mother.
291
:Um, and it was a rough, you
know, no doubt about it.
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:He had a very rough childhood and, um,
you know, there were, it sounds like there
293
:were times that if they weren't homeless,
they were pretty darn close to it.
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:Uh, he was homeless for a time as an adult
around the time that Maura went missing.
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:Um, there is a chunk of time, from
when he leaves West Point in December
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:of 2001 to when he, he starts
popping up again like around:
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:And by then he's living
in California again.
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:There's, there's chunk of like
three years where it's really hard
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:to find anything out about the guy.
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:Um, but he eventually marries
a, a woman out in California.
301
:That's how, in a way, he comes to Ohio
because she was originally from Ohio.
302
:They started having trouble
in their relationship.
303
:Um, he claims that she was abusive
to him, um, just like his mother.
304
:Um, and they end up moving to
ohio to try to save the marriage.
305
:They get to Ohio, they, they get,
they break up, they get divorced.
306
:And that's, that's kind
of what leads him here.
307
:And that's when he starts getting
involved with the animals here in Ohio.
308
:Um, there are a couple weird
things about his, his family.
309
:His mother's missing.
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:Um, which when I first heard that, I'm
like, really like, and, but I looked
311
:into it and sure enough, nobody's really
eard from the mom since about:
312
:I.
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:Uh, you know, it's strange.
314
:Uh, when I talked to his father, he said,
you know, he said something strange too.
315
:He said, yeah, nobody's
heard from her since:
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:As far as I know, she could be dead
and buried in the desert, which is
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:very, you know, that's kind of an
odd, very specific jump to make.
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:Yeah.
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:DrG: Yeah.
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:James Renner: So I don't
know what's up with that.
321
:Steffen, from what I understand,
turned down some offers from people
322
:that, uh, offered to try to find her.
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:Um, and then here's another odd
thing about Steffen and the timing
324
:around the Maura Murray case.
325
:He so in Maura disappears
in February,:
326
:About, so that happens in February.
327
:In, I think August, later that summer,
he starts applying to change his name
328
:because when he was at West Point
and all the way up until, uh, the
329
:end of 2004, he was known as Steffen
Finkelstein, and everybody at West
330
:Point remembers him as, as Finkelstein
or Fink, you know, they called him.
331
:And so, but then just a couple months
after Maura disappears, he, this adult
332
:man is like, I gotta change my name.
333
:And that's when he
becomes Steffen Baldwin.
334
:Uh, Baldwin was his mother's maiden name,
and when somebody asks him, he's like,
335
:well, I did that to honor my mother,
you know, the mother who's now missing.
336
:And, you know, he doesn't really seem too
interested in trying to track her path.
337
:Uh, yeah.
338
:So it's, it's very strange the
timing of that name change.
339
:It's very rare for a man to
change their name, you know?
340
:Um, especially at that age.
341
:I've seen it with like teens and, and
children who, you know, wanna honor
342
:their, like, adopted father or something.
343
:But, you know, the dude's like,
what, 24 years old at the time?
344
:Um, 23, somewhere around there.
345
:So, yeah.
346
:It's, you know, everything
about this guy's strange.
347
:But, so to sum it up, he, he,
he had an abusive background.
348
:In his autobiography, he talks a lot
about how he puts on this mask of being
349
:this happy, easy to like type of guy,
but inside, you know, it's, it's dark
350
:and he doesn't really understand himself.
351
:Um, and he judges people and thinks
he's smarter than everybody else.
352
:And, uh, you know, he, in his
autobiography says that he always thought
353
:he'd end up either homeless or dead or in
prison, and he just has this sense of doom
354
:that that's where his life is gonna lead.
355
:Like.
356
:Why do you think that, you know, why,
what is it that's happened that you think
357
:that that's the, the outcome of your life?
358
:And I guess now, you
know, he, he was right.
359
:You know, he's in prison.
360
:DrG: Yeah.
361
:And I know that he, he often
mentioned about her, his mom
362
:having mental health problems.
363
:I think he even said that she
was bipolar and then she was
364
:either into drugs and or alcohol.
365
:So that was part of the, part of the
problem that he had with her growing up.
366
:And I remember him being
on a, on a podcast.
367
:Um.
368
:That he was talking about how he
enrolled in the military because
369
:he needed to get away from his mom.
370
:James Renner: Mm-hmm.
371
:DrG: Right.
372
:Yeah.
373
:And, but
374
:James Renner: then you're gonna change
your name to your mother's name, right.
375
:Why do you do that?
376
:DrG: It's, yeah, exactly.
377
:It's like this person is abusing me and,
uh, you know, has made my life miserable.
378
:And I ran away from her.
379
:And, and he changed his name
before he, she disappeared.
380
:James Renner: Yeah.
381
:Yeah.
382
:Very bizarre.
383
:DrG: The, the other thing that
that is of interest is like you
384
:see patterns repeating, right?
385
:When people have traumas in childhood,
then they can potentially bring
386
:those traumas into adulthood and
either be a victim or victimized.
387
:And it feels like his relationships
with women, uh, I mean, he talks
388
:about himself being a victim with
his wife, whether that's true or not.
389
:We don't know, but his relationships
with other girlfriends, it's almost
390
:like he was making them into his mother.
391
:James Renner: Oh yeah.
392
:I could definitely see that.
393
:I don't think that's a big leap at all.
394
:I've talked to a couple of his former
girlfriends and he was abusive.
395
:You know, he was a very scary individual.
396
:He lived with a woman out
in California for a while.
397
:I think, I think it was even like after
he knew he was under investigation
398
:here in Ohio, um, and that he probably
knew this indictment was coming down.
399
:He entered into this relationship
and kind of tricked this woman into
400
:thinking he was somebody he was not.
401
:And uh, she is so upset, she was very
nice, but she cannot talk about it yet.
402
:You know, she can't talk about anything
that happened yet because she's still
403
:processing the, what he put her through.
404
:Um, there was a, a girlfriend
here in Ohio that I spoke to
405
:that says he pulled a gun on her.
406
:Um, and that, you know, was, was
same thing, just a scary guy when
407
:he'd, when he'd take that mask off
and show them who he really was.
408
:So, um, yeah.
409
:Uh, and, but, so I don't think it's a
big leap that he was, you, you know,
410
:that these women were in some way, like
a substitute for his mother and trying
411
:to act out like how in his mind he, he
should have acted to her back in the day.
412
:I can definitely see that.
413
:DrG: Yeah.
414
:Kind of like he was, uh, you
know, he was a child and he was.
415
:Unable to defend himself from his
mom and now he's, you know, getting,
416
:getting women who are vulnerable, who
are young and then getting them in
417
:this path of destruction and you know,
to a point then standing up to them.
418
:Yeah.
419
:And, you know, taking it out on them
the way that maybe he wishes that he had
420
:done to his mom, or, I mean, his mom is
missing maybe what he did to his mom.
421
:James Renner: Well, you know, he also
has two former girlfriends who are dead.
422
:I, I, strike that.
423
:You know, maybe three.
424
:You know, we don't know
what happened to Maura.
425
:Um, but the two here in Ohio,
although, you know, very unlikely he
426
:had anything directly to do with it.
427
:You know, the police believe
it was the way he treated these
428
:women that led them to, you know,
one had a, a, an a car accident.
429
:She was, she had, um, drugs in her
system, the other, you know, overdosed.
430
:And she was sober before
Steffen pulled her into his, um,
431
:influence and it messed her up.
432
:And, you know, you know the story better
than I do, but you know, it's one guy who
433
:is the common link to three, you know, to,
to two dead women and two missing women.
434
:Uh, you know, you at some point you
have to like, ask yourself like, what
435
:are the, you know, what are the odds?
436
:For, for all that to be innocent.
437
:Um, you know, who, who else is
connected to that, that much,
438
:you know, just bad things.
439
:And, and Carmen, and we haven't
even talked about the animals,
440
:you know, and this guy left a
path of destruction in his wake.
441
:I.
442
:DrG: And, you know, again, that's
where I, I wouldn't doubt if he's
443
:related to anything with Maura or
his mom or anything like that, just
444
:because it, it follows a pattern.
445
:And, and he was very good at showing,
like, he even says his mask, you know,
446
:he would go in front of of people and
be very well spoken and listen and
447
:process and understand what you wanted.
448
:And then.
449
:That was what he wanted as well.
450
:Yeah.
451
:Right.
452
:So your goals were his goals,
and that's how he got, you know,
453
:the trust of a lot of people.
454
:But on the inside he was
a, a very dark person.
455
:James Renner: Yeah.
456
:I also think, you know, he talks
in his autobiography a little bit
457
:about how he, he doesn't really
even know, you know who he is.
458
:You know, that I, I think whatever, like
the, the original Steffen that was in
459
:there, I think got lost through all the
abuse and everything else that happened,
460
:and I think he was becoming aware of that.
461
:I don't think Steffen knew who he was.
462
:Um, and I, I think that was a, a major
source of, of conflict inside his mind.
463
:Um, it's, it's certainly interesting,
uh, so you know whether or not he, is it,
464
:what I'm interested in is trying to figure
out if I can link him to Maura after they
465
:left West Point and I asked him, when
we talked that day at the courthouse,
466
:I said, did you, you know, did, did you
ever see Maura again after West Point?
467
:And he said, no, no, no, no, no.
468
:That was the last time I saw her.
469
:He said, uh, in fact, I've
never been north of Connecticut.
470
:But in his, uh, in some of his text
messages, he's talking about places that
471
:he'd loved to live, and one of them is New
Hampshire, where more Murray disappeared.
472
:And that's a weird thing to say,
like if you haven't ever been there,
473
:like how would you know you'd like
it enough to wanna live there?
474
:But that's not proof.
475
:Um, but he did lie when he said he
is never been north of Connecticut.
476
:I did find out that he was at a party
with some West Point cadets in Boston,
477
:but that might be, you know, maybe he
didn't count that because it was just a
478
:weekend and not too far north anyways.
479
:Um, but, you know, he, he definitely was.
480
:DrG: Another of the things is like
the relationship with his dad, right?
481
:Mm.
482
:Like there's, there's a lot with
that, including the fact that he
483
:hired somebody to find his dad.
484
:Is that, is that correct?
485
:James Renner: I.
486
:I never found anything about him
trying to track down his dad.
487
:I think I remember hearing that rumor,
but as far as like the stuff on his
488
:computer from, I mean, I was able to
find his dad in about five minutes.
489
:You know, he's not that
difficult to track down, so it's
490
:a weird thing for him to say.
491
:Um, and uh, I did, when I did talk
to his dad, I could tell that his
492
:dad does care for Steffen, because
I was, I was the one that told his
493
:dad that Steffen was in prison.
494
:He, he didn't know that.
495
:And I talked to him, I think, uh,
Baldwin was sentenced on a Thursday.
496
:And then I talked to, I think I
talked to the dad on a Saturday.
497
:Um, so it was still pretty new.
498
:And when I told him that his son
was in prison, you know, for maybe
499
:15 years, uh, you could, it took
the wind out of him, you know?
500
:Which is weird when put next to
Steffen's autobiography because there
501
:are stories in there about his father.
502
:He claims that his father was abusive.
503
:Um, and there's a letter that he wrote
to his father that's just scathing.
504
:But, uh, I, other than like him
not adopting Steffen, um, and from
505
:my understanding it was Steffen's
choice to stay with his mother.
506
:But, um, I can't find anything
that suggests that the father was
507
:actually abusive or dangerous the
way that Steffen makes him out to be.
508
:DrG: I mean, if Steffen made the
choice, why did he made the choice
509
:to stay with his mom versus go with
his dad and is it like a regret
510
:that he made the wrong decision.
511
:Mm-hmm.
512
:And he has to say, well, I didn't
go with him because he was abusive.
513
:James Renner: Yes.
514
:You know?
515
:Yeah.
516
:My hunch is that, that he made that
decision because there was, you know,
517
:his father would've supervised him,
you know, that, but with his mother,
518
:there, there was no supervision.
519
:You know, there was, there was no money
and, you know, hard to get food, but at
520
:least she wasn't telling him, you know?
521
:Um, she wasn't, I don't know, he could
pretty much do what he wanted as long as
522
:he stayed inside and, and read his books.
523
:DrG: In some of the future episodes we're
gonna be talking to people from, um, Top
524
:of Ohio Shelter, TOPS , which is somewhere
that he worked for a bit of time.
525
:And one of the, one of the issues that
they were having was about how he,
526
:like he wouldn't show up to work or
he came into work and would disappear,
527
:uh, for hours and, and not clock in.
528
:And he admits to some of
that in his biography, right?
529
:James Renner: Yeah.
530
:In his biography, he very
clear about what he was doing.
531
:He's like, "yeah, I was
supposed to be at work.
532
:And, you know, uh, I instead I'd blow off,
you know, these, these people that were
533
:counting on me and go home and spend the
day watching porn and masturbating and
534
:getting high", you know, and, uh, there
was a part of him very clearly that not
535
:entirely in control of his compulsions.
536
:And I'm, I'm, I'm glad you mentioned
this too, you know that the times
537
:that he isn't where he is supposed
to be because his girlfriends too,
538
:Talk about how he would take
these trips and disappear for
539
:sometimes a week at a time.
540
:Didn't know where, where they were.
541
:There was one girlfriend he had in
here in Ohio where he took off on
542
:a trip and you know, it three or
four days into it, you know, he left
543
:her to take care of the dogs, and
you know, she's having a hard time.
544
:So she calls him and he yells at
her for interrupting his "me time",
545
:you know, for, for his alone time.
546
:And, and he's traveling the country.
547
:He's just like driving around the country.
548
:Um, and the, when I heard about that,
of course my mind goes to Israel Keys,
549
:you know, this, this famous serial
killer who would just, uh, same thing.
550
:You know, he had kind of a normal life,
but he would just disappear sometimes
551
:and he would disappear and take these,
he would take a flight and then he'd
552
:rent a car from wherever he landed,
and he'd drive a thousand miles and
553
:commit these crimes and then drive back.
554
:And like he was trying
to cover his tracks.
555
:I'm not saying that, that
that's, that's who Steffen is.
556
:I don't know.
557
:But these actions are the actions of a
sociopath, you know, and, and somebody
558
:capable of being that type of person.
559
:DrG: I think that sociopath is the,
is the right word for him because,
560
:you know, sociopaths lack empathy.
561
:They take advantage of people and
they have no cares for the harm
562
:that they're causing to people.
563
:Yeah.
564
:Um, and those are some of the things
that we're gonna discuss as well
565
:is like, you know, some of the
people that he harmed, like he stole
566
:money from a homeless person, like.
567
:Who does that, right?
568
:And, and he just moves on and doesn't care
like the people that he was taking the
569
:animals and he's doing these things and
he's hurting them and he doesn't care.
570
:His girlfriends, you know, and, and he,
he talks about how he was so affected
571
:by, uh, his one girlfriend's death
in particular, but he never showed
572
:that actual, you know, being upset.
573
:It's again, just telling people what
he feels that they wanna hear or
574
:they need to hear to believe him.
575
:Yeah,
576
:James Renner: I don't think he understands
what the emotions are, or empathy is.
577
:Like, it's, it's even more
than like, lacking it.
578
:I don't think he understands what it is.
579
:Um, and you know, I, I'm sure a lot
of that can be attributed to the
580
:abuse in, in childhood, but, um.
581
:He's definitely a, a very interesting
psychological study for somebody.
582
:You know, even the, how he drifted
into the field of caring for these
583
:dangerous, potentially dangerous animals
is interesting to me because one,
584
:it's what his dad did and, you know,
according to him, he hated, his dad.
585
:Never wanted to be like him, but he, he
did the exact same thing his dad did.
586
:But also like, does he feel some sort of
kinship with these, with these animals?
587
:Because he knows like, is that what he is?
588
:You know, is he a dangerous
animal that is trying to be
589
:rehabilitated, trying to be better?
590
:Um, I think there's a very
interesting parallel with, with that.
591
:But I don't know.
592
:Yeah.
593
:Well, I'm not a psychologist.
594
:Right.
595
:DrG: And and the scary part of that though
is that if that's what he was doing, you
596
:know, he was ending up giving these happy
stories of adoption and rehabilitation,
597
:but in reality, he was killing these dogs.
598
:Yeah.
599
:So what, you know, if he's looking at
it that way, what was his end game like?
600
:You know, is, was he just trying
to, to find the happy place?
601
:And if not, then that was the end.
602
:James Renner: I always wonder that is
the, for as a true crime writer, that
603
:is the most fascinating question for me.
604
:I'm always wondering about
what these men's end games are.
605
:Um, any, any serial killer, but any
conman too, they get so deep into it,
606
:there's no way it can end well and.
607
:So, and that had to be going
through his mind at some point.
608
:He passed a point of no return
and, you know, had to know that
609
:it was gonna catch up to him.
610
:And, um, you know, I was thinking
about this the other day and
611
:somebody had a quote from a movie I.
612
:And I'm trying to remember what movie
it is and I, I, I'm drawing a blank, but
613
:the, the quote, you know, this person
went up to, oh, I know what it was.
614
:It was, uh, the, the
movie was Children of Men.
615
:Have you ever seen it?
616
:DrG: Yes, I have
617
:James Renner: very good sci-fi,
but like grounded in reality movie.
618
:And there's this, uh, businessman,
you know, dealer who, you know,
619
:the world is falling apart.
620
:He's gathered like priceless
art in his, in his house, and
621
:he's still like conning people.
622
:And the the main character goes
up to him and says, you know,
623
:how do you think this ends?
624
:Like, aren't you, you know, don't
you know that like you, you shouldn't
625
:be having a good time, that this
is not gonna end well for you.
626
:And what he says in response
is, I just don't think about it.
627
:I think that's, that's
what these people are like.
628
:They just don't think about it.
629
:Um, and if you can put those
blinders on, you can pretend
630
:that the end is not gonna come.
631
:DrG: And I mean, for him, he got away with
things for such a long period of time.
632
:Right.
633
:That if you can get away with
it and then you step it up.
634
:You get away with that and you step
it up and you get away with it.
635
:I mean, it's never ending.
636
:Like he's, he's getting reinforced
by those around him that he can
637
:do whatever he wants with zero
consequence to his actions.
638
:James Renner: Yeah.
639
:I wonder like if we could peak five
years into the future, like how much
640
:more we, we will know, you know, about
what he's responsible for and how long
641
:he is gotten away with that stuff.
642
:DrG: No.
643
:Absolutely.
644
:Do you think, you know, like he, he
talks about the reasons that he moved,
645
:um, or he stayed in Ohio was because of
his kid, but then he went to California.
646
:Like, is there anything on his
autobiography or anything that
647
:talks about him as a father,
how he sees himself as a father?
648
:James Renner: Yeah, he talks about
that a little bit, um, in that like
649
:the first time he felt any sort of
650
:empathy and emotion was
when his son was born.
651
:But I gotta tell you, I don't
know that I believe that either.
652
:And, and here's, here's why.
653
:Because there's, um, evidence from
other witnesses and his texts and
654
:emails where, um, you know, he's driving
around in the, in his car with his
655
:son completely high out of his mind.
656
:And, um, but he has a rule that like,
he won't get high if there's, there's
657
:somebody else's kid is in there with him.
658
:But he doesn't care if
it's his own kid, you know?
659
:So maybe he felt a little something,
but, you know, even with his own kid,
660
:you know, he's putting his, his son in
danger without really caring about it.
661
:And he is, you know, when
somebody questions him about
662
:it, he's like, no, it's my kid.
663
:What, you know, I can do whatever I want.
664
:DrG: Yeah.
665
:And well, and when he, when he.
666
:Fled to California thinking that he was
gonna be able to avoid the investigation
667
:and the charges here in Ohio, you, I,
I have a kid that is about his son's
668
:age, and to me, I would not move.
669
:I don't care about the job.
670
:I don't care about what I.
671
:Waits for me on the other end
if I'm so attached to my child
672
:that I wanna stay with them.
673
:Right?
674
:Yeah.
675
:I either take my kid with me or I
stick around until my kid is an adult
676
:and then he can make his own decisions
and then I can, I can move on.
677
:So that was kind of out of
character for somebody that says
678
:that he loves his kids so much.
679
:James Renner: Yeah, you don't,
yeah, you don't abandon your
680
:kid, you know, no matter what.
681
:Um, I think that's very telling.
682
:DrG: Yeah.
683
:And, and for somebody who feels
that he himself was abandoned or he
684
:was not treated well, right, yeah.
685
:You would think that he more
than anybody would wanna shelter
686
:if he truly feels that way.
687
:James Renner: You know, something else
that I noticed, um, you know, especially
688
:after reading all this stuff, uh,
that he even says in his own words,
689
:you know, he's, so, even after all of
this, I know he's a dangerous person.
690
:Um, I know he's done terrible things,
but when I met him outside the
691
:courtroom that day, he's charming.
692
:You know, he has a way of talking to
you and looking in your eyes that puts
693
:you, at least at me, at that moment
when he wants to, puts you at ease.
694
:And I find found myself like, feeling
a little sorry for him for a moment.
695
:Um, and because he, you know, one
reason is he was acting like he was
696
:walking out of the courtroom that day.
697
:You know, I'm like, you
know, have you made plans?
698
:Are you, you know,
taking care of yourself?
699
:He's like, oh yeah, it'll be fine.
700
:You know, I'm not worried.
701
:And then he, you know, he goes in
there and he's not getting out for,
702
:you know, 15, 15 and a half years.
703
:Um, so he, even with all that
turmoil inside, he has a way to
704
:mask and present as if he's done
nothing wrong and it's believable.
705
:He's got some sort of
magic charisma, you know,
706
:DrG: I mean, some of the,
well-known serial killers.
707
:That's how they got their victims, right.
708
:James Renner: Ted Bundy.
709
:Yeah.
710
:You know, handsome and could
convince you to do anything.
711
:DrG: Exactly.
712
:And you know, he has the, the whole,
his charisma and then he picked
713
:the right, the right field animals.
714
:Because that's where, you know, a
lot of people, people that, that care
715
:about animals, like care about animals.
716
:Yeah.
717
:And it's, and sadly, it's easy to take
advantage of somebody that, that wants
718
:to see the best for these animals.
719
:James Renner: It ended up working out
very poorly for him too, because that
720
:community is also very, like when you
do something wrong to an animal, they
721
:will unite and burn the world down to
come after you, you know, which is what
722
:he found out in the in the end there.
723
:DrG: Does he talk at any point in
his autobiography or anywhere that
724
:you have listened about his real
feelings as far as animals and the,
725
:you know, the taking care of animals,
sheltering training, that kind of stuff?
726
:James Renner: Not that I've seen, no.
727
:Um, which is odd now that you mention it.
728
:Um, I don't know that he is.
729
:It, it, I don't know if he
feels that or, or processes.
730
:I, I, I wish I could take a peek
inside his mind, but it seemed
731
:very transactional to him.
732
:Um, but you would, you would
know that better than me.
733
:I mean, it, I, I think the way he defended
some of these, um, some of these animals
734
:that, that died at, you know, uh, because
of his influence, um, at the very least.
735
:Um, you know, oh, they were, you
know, um, they were dangerous anyways,
736
:or, you know, they, you know, it's a
dog, you know, it's a, I don't know.
737
:It was very odd.
738
:DrG: Yeah.
739
:That was, I know what to
740
:James Renner: make of it.
741
:DrG: I know that was something
really interesting in that
742
:podcast that, that he spoke with.
743
:That, you know, he, he talks about
how animals need rehabilitated, and
744
:how he can learn about a
dog and all that stuff.
745
:But then later on during it, he says
like that, like, it's just a dog.
746
:Like it's, it's what they do.
747
:Like, you know, you can't, you can't
change them, you can't fix them.
748
:And he talks about how the best
predictor of an animal's future
749
:actions is their past actions.
750
:Mm-hmm.
751
:DrG: But he also is trying to say
that this dog bit, but that doesn't
752
:mean that it's gonna bite again.
753
:So like all this contradiction of things.
754
:James Renner: Yeah.
755
:Yeah.
756
:That's why I don't think there's,
it's almost like there's, there's
757
:no like core to, to, to his psyche.
758
:You know?
759
:It just kind of like pivots to like
whoever he's talking to or whatever
760
:he needs to get out of the situation.
761
:But somewhere deep down they're,
they're, you know, I don't
762
:know what that person is.
763
:Um, yeah.
764
:Yeah.
765
:Again, a very interesting
psychological study, at the very least.
766
:DrG: Yeah.
767
:Knowing him and, you know, knowing all
the, all the lies that he, that he said
768
:and all the things that he did, and how he
got away with things, that, that was the
769
:first time that I really kind had a good
look into him was during that podcast.
770
:Even though I don't feel that
he was telling the truth, I
771
:could see how he had analyzed.
772
:Oh yeah, the host.
773
:Sure.
774
:And he was telling the host, I mean,
he was one with the host, right?
775
:Yeah.
776
:Like every, every experience
that the host had, he had, yeah.
777
:And it's like, yeah, man, me too.
778
:Me too, me too.
779
:And he bonded with this guy and he just
read him perfectly and he just told
780
:him everything that he wanted to hear.
781
:And that's where, you know,
like some of the things that.
782
:In one place he says is not okay.
783
:And that interview was okay because
that's where he felt that he needed to go.
784
:So really, really good at reading people.
785
:Absolutely.
786
:And that's why he was able to
get away with things for so long.
787
:James Renner: Absolutely.
788
:I, I think, um, when I met him, you
know, there was, this has happened just
789
:a couple times in my life with, with true
crime reporting, where I meet a suspect.
790
:And,
791
:he was like this where I could tell
he knew more about me within 10
792
:seconds of meeting me and talking to
me than I would ever know about him.
793
:Like it's a supernatural, almost
way that these people have of
794
:reading another human being.
795
:To know like, what buttons to
push, what things to say, what
796
:this person needs to hear.
797
:Um, I, I run into that just a couple
times and it's always creeped me out.
798
:Um, but I never realized it until later.
799
:I'm like, oh.
800
:Oh, okay.
801
:Um.
802
:But was there ever a moment where you
got like a, just a red flag or, or just
803
:a creepy feeling, a vibe or anything?
804
:DrG: Yeah, I mean, when, like, to
start with, when I met Steffen, I
805
:was giving a presentation on, I.
806
:I say like, like signs of animal
neglect and I believe it was
807
:primarily in puppy mill dogs.
808
:And then he was presenting at
that same, uh, that same day.
809
:And he was talking about like the,
the role of the animal control
810
:officer and what people can do and.
811
:He, he saw that I was interested
in animal cruelty and neglect.
812
:Like back then forensics was not a huge
field and there wasn't a lot for me to do.
813
:I had started, uh, well actually not
even at the, at that time I started
814
:working with, uh, Humane World for
Animals, that was HSUS, years later.
815
:But he picked up on the fact that
that's what I wanted to do, and
816
:I think he figured, Hey, I, I.
817
:I got this.
818
:Right?
819
:Yeah.
820
:Like he, he came to me and he's like,
yeah, we can do this and boots on the
821
:ground and I can do the investigation
and you can do the vetting.
822
:And in my eyes it was like perfect.
823
:Right?
824
:Like I met the, almost like the
Mulder to the Scully, right?
825
:Yeah.
826
:Like that, that combination of people that
have a same goal and they bring different
827
:things into that, that partnership.
828
:Yeah.
829
:DrG: And he, you know, and that's how
he was able to take advantage of it.
830
:Now the, the thing with me
is that I'm, I'm personally
831
:not a super trusting person.
832
:Like that's just the, the way I am.
833
:Uh, and I'm not also a
very emotional person.
834
:So.
835
:He knows what to say or whatever.
836
:I never thought that he was cute.
837
:I was never attracted to him.
838
:I was never like, you know, into that.
839
:So he, he didn't have that over
me that he had over other people
840
:Yeah.
841
:DrG: That wanted to be with him.
842
:Yeah.
843
:Like, I truly wanted a working
relationship and a partnership.
844
:Sure.
845
:Um, so as we started working in different
things, he started not, not doing the
846
:things that he was responsible for.
847
:And, and at first it's like,
well, he's just, you know,
848
:scattered or irresponsible.
849
:Yeah.
850
:But it became a pattern.
851
:Ah, so
852
:DrG: little by little I started
doing less and less with him.
853
:And then with money, it looked like
he was not utilizing money properly.
854
:Yeah.
855
:And that he was spending money
that was supposed to be for the
856
:nonprofit on personal stuff.
857
:Yeah.
858
:So I started distancing myself from it.
859
:Uh, I can say that I never in my wildest
dreams thought or knew that he was
860
:doing the scam that he was doing as
far as saying that the animals were
861
:adopted or that they were trained and
rehabilitated and euthanizing them.
862
:James Renner: Ugh.
863
:Yeah.
864
:DrG: Um, you know, like that was,
that was a big hit for me because
865
:we euthanized some of these dogs.
866
:You know, there were a lot of
other veterinarians that, that,
867
:that did it, and some other dogs
died under unknown conditions.
868
:Yeah.
869
:But.
870
:DrG: It's the being used a weapon to
kill, kill these dogs for him, right?
871
:Yeah.
872
:Um, so, you know, the, the
manipulation to that point.
873
:Um, but yeah, I, it,
it was, I would say I.
874
:It probably took a good year, and I
feel like I worked with him for years.
875
:I worked with him for almost,
for only about two years.
876
:Wow.
877
:And to me, it felt like an eternity.
878
:Sure.
879
:Right.
880
:Um, and, and yeah, it's, you know, as
I said on my, uh, victim statement is,
881
:I have to admit that he had me con too.
882
:Yeah.
883
:He knew how to, he knew what I,
what I needed and what I wanted.
884
:He pretended to be able
to, to offer that to me.
885
:Yeah.
886
:Um, and you know, by the time we, we
found out it was a little bit too late.
887
:James Renner: I wonder how he's
doing, um, how a personality
888
:like that does in prison.
889
:Like sometimes, you know, that's
the best place for them, the
890
:structure, the routine of it.
891
:Uh, but other times, like, it just,
you know, they just can't handle it.
892
:And I, I like, I'm really wondering
like, which, which, which, how
893
:that shakes out for him, you know?
894
:DrG: Yeah.
895
:And it's, yeah, it'll, it'll take
time to see how things go and if
896
:he is able to get off early or if
he has to do his full sentencing.
897
:And even if he, or when he gets out,
gonna be, it's gonna be interesting to
898
:see how that, how that goes for him.
899
:James Renner: And, and since he's
incarcerated now, they, they do have
900
:his DNA on file, you know, if, if that
were to ever, you know, have any sort
901
:of match, I mean, fingerprint and Maura
Murray's car maybe can be explained
902
:away, but, you know, if, if they get,
uh, in any sort of DNA, but again,
903
:we don't know what happened to Maura.
904
:We don't know that it's a murder.
905
:Um, we, you know, there's all sorts
of possibilities on the table.
906
:All we know, you know, just like his
mother, all we know is she's missing.
907
:Which again, is, you know, when
you think about it, it's very hard.
908
:Um, people go missing, but usually they,
they're found or their body is found
909
:and Maura has been missing since 2004.
910
:His mother's been missing since 2007.
911
:Nobody's found either
body, which is very rare.
912
:Um, so yeah, that's
something I wonder about too.
913
:DrG: Yeah, it, it's, I mean,
as you said, he is a very
914
:interesting psychological case.
915
:Yeah.
916
:And it would be, it would be very
interesting if somebody decided to
917
:take that on and try to figure out
what's going inside of, inside of his
918
:head, if anybody can get it in there.
919
:James Renner: Yeah.
920
:DrG: Yeah, thank you for being here
and, and again, hopefully we can have an
921
:update as far as your findings and let
people catch up on, on Maura's story.
922
:James Renner: That'd be great.
923
:Uh, in the meantime, I am
continuing to research into Steffen.
924
:I'm reaching out to former
cadets at West Point.
925
:Um.
926
:If you knew him from West Point as Steffen
Finkelstein, I'd be very happy to talk, to
927
:talk to you if you're listening to this.
928
:And, um, so there, there are a
couple things that I'm trying
929
:to, to trace down still.
930
:Um, and, uh, you know, I, if
I find anything, I'll, I'll
931
:absolutely let you know.
932
:DrG: Excellent.
933
:And how can people get ahold of you?
934
:It's like if somebody has information,
how can they get that information to you?
935
:James Renner: Yeah, all my contact
and anything you wanna know about
936
:this is, um, at james renner.com.
937
:DrG: Excellent.
938
:Well, so
939
:James Renner: that's the best place,
940
:DrG: right?
941
:Well, again, thank you for spending this
time for with us and going over this.
942
:I think that it gives, especially
people that don't know who we're talking
943
:about, and it'll give him a good idea.
944
:And this sets a good base to start
talking about all the things that he did.
945
:James Renner: Yeah.
946
:Well, good luck with it.
947
:I'm, I'm glad you're doing this
and, and it's important and I'm sure
948
:it'll, um, kick up some new leads.
949
:So, so keep doing what you're doing.
950
:DrG: Excellent.
951
:Thank you for being here and
for everybody that's listening.
952
:Thank you for listening,
and thank you for caring.